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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 19224  
Subject: that was fun. Date: 12/12/2008 11:49 PM
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not really ..

on another board, someone posted a 'horror' story about Medicare-D costing lots more next year -- CHECK your plan!


so i went to medicare.gov ...

X hrs of typing in info (all my meds), comparing fifty-one(!) plans ..

don't know how accurate is the web-stie, but it IS very detailed ... and they can't really predict since your meds might change or prices might change, BUT

after all that -- i can stick with current plan.. or i can switch plans, same Insurer, and switch pharmacies and save an est. $8.00.

or i can switch plans and Insurer and pay an extra $40-190.


=j
..... how does an OLD person, in failing health, with no computer handle this? />:
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Author: TMFPMarti Big funky green star, 20000 posts Home Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14296 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/13/2008 6:37 AM
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how does an OLD person, in failing health, with no computer handle this?

I suspect they overpay.

Never given to false modesty, I'll confess that I'm brighter than most, and I've worked with numbers my entire career. When I took over my parents' bills I finally had to put everything on a spreadsheet in order to have a shot at making sure they paid what they should and no more. Even with computer assistance I spent hours at it.

The biggest problem in terms of time was that there was no uniform billing system. One provider billed only the Medicare allowed amount from the beginning, God bless 'em. Everyone else started with the fake number then started applying credits and payments. But some would keep all ledger entries regarding one service together, others would list them in chronological order, and it seemed a few threw them all into one of those "grab some cash" whirly thingies and listed them in the order retrieved. Some would tell you when everything they were waiting for had settled, others wouldn't.

I imagine more than one old person with sufficient means to do so has just given up in frustration and paid what the provider says they owe.

Phil

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14297 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/13/2008 9:22 AM
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=j
..... how does an OLD person, in failing health, with no computer handle this? />:



In a Republican world, they are either supposed to die and just get out of everybody else's way -- or they are supposed to go to the nearest church, hat in hand, and beg someone to stop their lives long enough to help them.

In a Democratic world, they would be on Universal Healthcare and would never have to worry about anything except getting well.

AM

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14298 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/13/2008 10:28 AM
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<<In a Democratic world, they would be on Universal Healthcare and would never have to worry about anything except getting well.

AM
>>


That would be Angel May's fantasy world, actually.


In the Democratic world, people would be have no choice but to join and pay for the Democratic plan, and they would get what the Dems found convenient to give them, and no more. As long as you stayed healthy you would probably be fine. When you got seriously sick you'd discover care available was limited and took a long time to get, unless you were politically well connected.



Seattle Pioneer
Who prefers paying $818/month for indicidual health insurance

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14299 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/13/2008 10:33 AM
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In the Democratic world, people would be have no choice but to join and pay for the Democratic plan, and they would get what the Dems found convenient to give them, and no more. As long as you stayed healthy you would probably be fine. When you got seriously sick you'd discover care available was limited and took a long time to get, unless you were politically well connected.




There you go again -- making stuff up.
Since we have NEVER tried Universal Healthcare, there is no way you could POSSIBLY know how long it would take to get care if you were seriously sick. You are blowing smoke out your arse once again, SP. Please stop it. It's not attractive.



Seattle Pioneer
Who prefers paying $818/month for indicidual health insurance



SO happy for you.
Tell you what, if we ever DO get Universal Healthcare, YOU can continue to pay $818/month for your health insurance -- AFTER you pay your taxes so that the rest of us won't have to worry anymore about that.

And please! Let me thank you in advance for your generosity.

AM

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14300 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/13/2008 10:38 AM
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<<In the Democratic world, people would be have no choice but to join and pay for the Democratic plan, and they would get what the Dems found convenient to give them, and no more. As long as you stayed healthy you would probably be fine. When you got seriously sick you'd discover care available was limited and took a long time to get, unless you were politically well connected.




There you go again -- making stuff up.
Since we have NEVER tried Universal Healthcare, there is no way you could POSSIBLY know how long it would take to get care if you were seriously sick. You are blowing smoke out your arse once again, SP. Please stop it. It's not attractive.
>>


Heh, heh! Interesting that you can predict the future but no one else is allowed to give it a try.


Have you forgotten your own guesses already?


<<In a Republican world, they are either supposed to die and just get out of everybody else's way -- or they are supposed to go to the nearest church, hat in hand, and beg someone to stop their lives long enough to help them.

In a Democratic world, they would be on Universal Healthcare and would never have to worry about anything except getting well.

AM
>>

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14301 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/13/2008 11:49 AM
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Heh, heh! Interesting that you can predict the future but no one else is allowed to give it a try.


Have you forgotten your own guesses already?


---------


I, at least, have historical data to back my predictions up.
You have none.

AM

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14302 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/13/2008 12:05 PM
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AM: "In the Democratic world, people would be have no choice but to join and pay for the Democratic plan, and they would get what the Dems found convenient to give them, and no more. As long as you stayed healthy you would probably be fine. When you got seriously sick you'd discover care available was limited and took a long time to get, unless you were politically well connected."

In a democratic world, first, you'd be paying at least 7% of your income for 'health services'. YOur employer would pay a like amount...meaning your salary raises would be less to compensate for that. You'd take home maybe 10% less, but, heck, you are getting 'free' healthcare.

If you are self employed or retired before SS, you'd have to likely cough up 10% of your income or more- your 7% plus at least part of the employer part.

Then, you'd find that the hospitals are crowded, elective procedures take months to schedule and that months after you get diagnosed since the purchase of medical machines is now part of gov't budgets and with a poor economy, there is no money for any new expansion or even replacemnt.

Folks have voted in a 'cap' on tax increases in all state and fed budgets - so there is little money for the ever expanding illegal low wage population demanding more and more health care services.

We, too, can be like Canada with rationed health care, where they have 1/5th the amount of MRI and CAT scan machines, are losing doctors left and right, and where folks are demanding to be able to buy private insurance to actually get prompt medical care when needed......

Oh, but the basics 'are free' after you fork over your 7-10%, and receive less pay while working.......and, of course, your regular state and fed income taxes have to go up to pay the costs.

But, after all, your health care is 'universal' and you don't pay for your doc visits, or your only generic medicines.

t.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14303 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/13/2008 12:07 PM
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AM: "
I, at least, have historical data to back my predictions up.
You have none."

you mean like Medicare costs bankrupting the gov't in less than 15 years? Tens of trillions of unfunded liabilities?

Where medicare costs are bankrupting states now? Like MA and CA and NY?????

Yes, AM, you have 'historical data' to show that gov't health care is bankrupting states and the fed government........

And you want to expand it and make it 10 times worse?

t.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14304 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/13/2008 12:11 PM
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For AM

http://www.cnsnews.com/Public/Content/article.aspx?RsrcID=33...

"To back up this claim, Ryan cited an estimate by the non-partisan Government Accountability Office that says the government faces a $53-trillion shortfall to cover the costs of promised benefits in its entitlement programs.

“They say we are $53 trillion short of fulfilling the promises the government is making to the American people, in today’s dollars,” said Ryan.

“Meaning that if we want to keep the promises of Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, which are basically the three major entitlement programs, today we would have to set aside $53 trillion dollars and invest them at Treasury rates in order to do it,” he said.

Ryan said that to deal with this situation the government must either reform the entitlement programs or eventually impose massive tax increases on American workers.

“For the last 40 years, the federal government has had to tax every dollar made in America at 18.3 cents on that dollar to pay the bills of the federal government,” said Ryan.

“By the time my three children – who are three, five and six years old—are my age, the federal government will have to tax 40 cents out of every dollar made in America just to pay the bills for the federal government at that time,” he said."


Hmmm.....so AM might wind up paying more than 100% in taxes to fund that 'free' universal healthcare......


t.

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14305 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/13/2008 12:54 PM
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how does an OLD person, in failing health, with no computer handle this?
==========
I suspect they overpay.

Never given to false modesty, I'll confess that I'm brighter than most, and I've worked with numbers my entire career. When I took over my parents' bills I finally had to put everything on a spreadsheet in order to have a shot at making sure they paid what they should and no more. Even with computer assistance I spent hours at it.

The biggest problem in terms of time was that there was no uniform billing system. One provider billed only the Medicare allowed amount from the beginning, God bless 'em.


i have yet to SEE a bill since Medicare ... maybe the luck of picking the Ins[B-supplement]carrier or luck with Doctors(etc) ..or both

but the choosing was a dizzying rats' nest.


I imagine more than one old person with sufficient means to do so has just given up in frustration and paid what the provider says they owe.


and some with insufficient means..


-b
.... marginally smarter than average and much experienced with numbers

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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14307 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/13/2008 2:43 PM
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Canadian Health Care We So Envy Lies In Ruins, Its Architect Admits

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=29928250933...

Gist of the article: The guy who is regarded as the father of the Canadian socialized health care system is now calling for privatization:

"We thought we could resolve the system's problems by rationing services or injecting massive amounts of new money into it," says Castonguay. But now he prescribes a radical overhaul: "We are proposing to give a greater role to the private sector so that people can exercise freedom of choice."

Castonguay advocates contracting out services to the private sector, going so far as suggesting that public hospitals rent space during off-hours to entrepreneurial doctors. He supports co-pays for patients who want to see physicians. Castonguay, the man who championed public health insurance in Canada, now urges for the legalization of private health insurance.
________________________________________________________________

I'm amazed (not really) how people who gnash their teeth and rend their garments over the imaginary loss of freedom they suffered from the Patriot Act are so willing to turn decisions about their health care (rationing) over to the gov't and die willingly if the treatment they need exists but is not on the approved list.

--fleg

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Author: khintul Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14309 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/13/2008 3:11 PM
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..... how does an OLD person, in failing health, with no computer handle this? />:



In a Republican world, they are either supposed to die and just get out of everybody else's way -- or they are supposed to go to the nearest church, hat in hand, and beg someone to stop their lives long enough to help them.

In a Democratic world, they would be on Universal Healthcare and would never have to worry about anything except getting well.

AM


I've read some ridiculous posts on this board, but this has got to be right at the top. Good grief.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14310 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/13/2008 3:21 PM
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In a Republican world, they are either supposed to die and just get out of everybody else's way -- or they are supposed to go to the nearest church, hat in hand, and beg someone to stop their lives long enough to help them.

In a Democratic world, they would be on Universal Healthcare and would never have to worry about anything except getting well.

AM

I've read some ridiculous posts on this board, but this has got to be right at the top. Good grief.

------


There is nothing ridiculous about it.
Republicans -- right here on this very board (and other boards at TMF) have expressed EXACTLY the sentiments I listed above. They don't actually CARE about other people. They have theirs -- and everyone else can go to hell. If they have to give up a $ in taxes to help someone else you would think the world is coming to an end.

Democrats would LIKE to see a program of Universal Healthcare for the citizens of this country -- since we look at all people and see them as human beings and not just THINGS in our way to saving a $ in taxes.

Universal Healthcare -- contrary to what teleidiot has to say about it -- doesn't mean that EVERYTHING under the sun is covered... but it does mean that EVERYBODY is covered. No one, under a good plan for Universal Healthcare would ever have to worry about losing their home and everything they've ever worked for just because they get cancer or some other catastrophic disease.

Other nations care much more about their citizens than we, apparently, care about ours. You can squawk all you like. The evidence is out there.

I never mince words. I speak as truthfully as I possibly can.
If you don't like my posts, tough noogies. I don't give a fat rat's patootie. And that's as straight-up as I can say it.

AM

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Author: mendomann Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14311 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/13/2008 3:57 PM
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..... how does an OLD person, in failing health, with no computer handle this?

I too have been trying to get a new Part D plan for next year. In my working care I was a computer systems technical professional, so I am very familiar with databases and computer systems. I made my decision which plan I wanted and enrolled online with Medco. Two weeks went by and I went to check on my enrollment status and to my surprise they had nothing on me. Then I called and enrolled over the phone. Ten days passed and I had not received any letter of confirmation. So I called again and was told they did not have anything on me again. After a third call I finally got a customer rep. to admit that they were having trouble with their systems and databases and that to call back in about week, if I don't get a call from them. My wife's enrollment went smoothly and got a letter of confirmation. This is very frustrating and I am about ready to forget all about it. Maybe I will just get my medications from Walmart, Costco, etc. since my current medications are all generic.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14312 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/13/2008 5:03 PM
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AM: "Republicans -- They don't actually CARE about other people. They have theirs -- and everyone else can go to hell. If they have to give up a $ in taxes to help someone else you would think the world is coming to an end."

Hmmmm...class warfare? You didn't mention anything about dems giving up their taxes....you know, like Biden, you has yet to volunteer to pay more....or Buffet, who mentions what his low tax rate is, but has yet to pony up a dime in extra taxes to help out your plan! Just think, he could probably write a 100 million dollar donation...or pay the health care for folks in the poorest 10 states alone! does he do it??Ha ha..he's a lib dem.....wants OTHERS to pay, not him.

AM: "Democrats would LIKE to see a program of Universal Healthcare for the citizens of this country -- since we look at all people and see them as human beings and not just THINGS in our way to saving a $ in taxes."

And what you forgot to add, is using SOMEONE ELSE'S money to pay for it!.......

AM: "Universal Healthcare -- contrary to what teleidiot has to say about it -- doesn't mean that EVERYTHING under the sun is covered... but it does mean that EVERYBODY is covered."

Show me one gov't plan that doesn't get to be gold plated with mandated things after 10 or 15 years.......they add 'this little thing' and 'that favorite situation' until it staggers under the expense.

Just look to Medicare prescription plan which was severely underfunded from day one, and will be bust in just 10 years......by trillions...



AM: No one, under a good plan for Universal Healthcare would ever have to worry about losing their home and everything they've ever worked for just because they get cancer or some other catastrophic disease."

You magically assume a 100% favorable outcome for every situation. That seldom happens. And if they can't work, you gonna pay the mortgage too so they don't lose their house? Or make their car payments, too?



AM: "Other nations care much more about their citizens than we, apparently, care about ours. "

Other nations tax and tax their citizens......and then with typical government inefficiency provide rationed health care. They don't make house payments or car payments....

t.

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14313 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/13/2008 5:27 PM
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online with Medco. Two weeks went by and I went to check on my enrollment status and to my surprise they had nothing on me. Then I called and enrolled over the phone. Ten days passed and I had not received any letter of confirmation. So I called again and was told they did not have anything on me again. After a third call I finally got a customer rep. to admit that they were having trouble with their systems and databases and that to call back in about week, if I don't get a call from them. My wife's enrollment went smoothly and got a letter of confirmation.


insane. ... but you knew that.


This is very frustrating and I am about ready to forget all about it. Maybe I will just get my medications from Walmart, Costco, etc. since my current medications are all generic.


"current" is the tricky bit.


-

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Author: khintul Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14314 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/13/2008 5:28 PM
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There is nothing ridiculous about it.

Except every word.

I never mince words. I speak as truthfully as I possibly can.

It's a real shame that you are so full of vitriol.

If you don't like my posts, tough noogies. I don't give a fat rat's patootie. And that's as straight-up as I can say it.

It doesn't exactly take a rocket scientist to read just a few of your posts to know that this statement is totally unnecessary. What a sad existence.

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14315 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/13/2008 7:58 PM
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It doesn't exactly take a rocket scientist to read just a few of your posts to know that this statement is totally unnecessary. What a sad existence.



perhaps the only thing more boring than posters arguing ..posters doing two-bit psychology.

<sigh>


-
..... though the "neener-neener" rebuttal is in the running

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14316 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/13/2008 8:34 PM
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So. The question remains:

..... how does an OLD person, in failing health, with no computer handle this?

And I could add... and old person with no one to help them. There are plenty of elderly out there who live alone and have no one they can call on for help.

It seems they really would just give up in frustration and take anything at all. And maybe that was this administration's grand plan in the first place. It was never about helping the people. It was about helping the insurance and the drug companies.

AM

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Author: malaoshi Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14317 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/14/2008 1:33 AM
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'or Buffet, who mentions what his low tax rate is, but has yet to pony up a dime in extra taxes to help out your plan! Just think, he could probably write a 100 million dollar donation...or pay the health care for folks in the poorest 10 states alone! does he do it??Ha ha..he's a lib dem.....wants OTHERS to pay, not him. " Telegraph's words of wisdom..

Telegraph, the day you do half as much percentagewise, as Buffet is doing for others by donating huge sums to Gates Foundation,( mostly for health)..I'll listen to something you say. Buffet is not a greedy man.

But in your posts you appear the ultimate, smug "I'm all right, Jack"
As you appear to resent any dime taken out of your hard earned retirement..( very early retirement, but all your hard work..etc) you are the last person who ought to sneer at the contributions/ donations of others.

A universal health care system might have faults but at least everyone would have a chance at health care. That is not the case now.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14318 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/14/2008 3:14 AM
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<<A universal health care system might have faults but at least everyone would have a chance at health care. That is not the case now.

>>



Sorry. Medical care is a commodity like any other. If you want it, plan to earn the money to buy it.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: alstroemeria Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14319 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/14/2008 7:02 AM
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So. The question remains:

..... how does an OLD person, in failing health, with no computer handle this?


My elderly mother is in exceptionally good health, has a computer, is a highly organized person with no signs of dementia, and worked with numbers years ago. But even she can't cope with it, and just goes with whatever AARP sells for all of her insurance needs.

Frankly, I find simply picking from my husband's employer's health plan choices to be difficult. Making the right choice depends on knowing in advance what kind of health care we'll need long after we sign up by the end of October for the following calendar year. I often make the wrong choice--paying for a gold=plated plan and then having a year with little medical care, or conversely, choosing a cheaper plan with higher deductibles and ending up needing more care and paying as much as I would have with the better plan. sigh--the extra stress is not good for my health!

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14320 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/14/2008 10:39 AM
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Sorry. Medical care is a commodity like any other. If you want it, plan to earn the money to buy it.


---------------


Please explain how it differs from education -- which is also something that everyone needs. Are you suggesting that if people want their children educated they should plan to earn the money to buy it? And those who cannot earn enough money to pay it... what happens to them? Lifelong ignorance?

AM

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14321 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/14/2008 12:36 PM
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..... how does an OLD person, in failing health, with no computer handle this?

My elderly mother is in exceptionally good health, has a computer, is a highly organized person with no signs of dementia, and worked with numbers years ago. But even she can't cope with it, and just goes with whatever AARP sells for all of her insurance needs.


which is what i did originally.

like their ads said, "a name you can trust" ... couldn't find anything against them and for -D, they had one useful feature.

this year i decided to try comparing again ,and
FWIW -of the 4 and 5 star plans (available to ME), AARP were cheapest.


-b
... NEXT week --try the supplement plans again <sigh>

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14322 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/14/2008 2:53 PM
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"
Telegraph, the day you do half as much percentagewise, as Buffet is doing for others by donating huge sums to Gates Foundation,( mostly for health)..I'll listen to something you say. Buffet is not a greedy man."

You'll note that Buffet is donating to the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation TENS of billions of dollars.

And not in VERY BIG LETTERS that it is all tax exempt. He is not paying a dime in federal or local taxes on all the appreciation of all the stocks he has owned for decades.

He knows that the feds have very sticky fingers, and that tax money is used very inefficiently, via corrupt pork barrel projects and special interest programs, benefitting not the lower or middle classes.....

"As you appear to resent any dime taken out of your hard earned retirement..( very early retirement, but all your hard work..etc) you are the last person who ought to sneer at the contributions/ donations of others."

Buffet has several choices. He can leave 55% of his estate to the tax man.

Or, he can cheat the tax man out of tens of billions and give it to 'charity' tax free.

Meanwhile, YOU and I are paying taxes because he has elected not to voluntarily pay a dime in extra taxes.

Same for Biden (D) and the other Hollywood ilk liberals.

"A universal health care system might have faults but at least everyone would have a chance at health care."

Like I said, if Buffet simply SOLD his stock, paid the taxes on it he owes, that would likely fund enough of a program to provide health care for the unisured for a year alone. If GATES sold his stock , that would fund another year......

But no...they don't pay a dime in taxes, and 'donate' it all tax free....... (your rules)....

Meanwhile, you and I pay, pay, and pay.

They aren't dumb!

The libs who think they are going to get more tax money out of the top 1% (the Bill GAtes, Larry Elisons, WArren Buffets of the world) are out of their minds.....

It will be the middle class that gets socked with tax increases. The working folks.

Hasn't it dawned on you that 'the rich' pay very little percentage wise?
And it will never change?

t.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14323 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/14/2008 2:58 PM
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AM: "Please explain how it differs from education -- which is also something that everyone needs."

We educate people through high school. That is a choice we made.

We don't provide a 'college education' to everyone. A plumber doesn't need a college education. In fact, a plumber might have benefitted from a vocational high school, not an 'academic one'. Same for your auto repairman (oops, tech), the a/c guy, the pool guy, the plane mechanic, the stewardess on the plane, ......

"Are you suggesting that if people want their children educated they should plan to earn the money to buy it? "

Top league fancy name college? you bet.....along with some financial assitance based upon need and ability of the kid.....

"And those who cannot earn enough money to pay it... what happens to them? Lifelong ignorance?"

You ever hear of the military? Get college credits for serving..in some cases, get excellent vocational skills...from piloting to repair to computers to leadership skills.

Or night school, or part time, or community college. Or scholarships.

we really don't need a lot more history or English or lit majors...lib arts type degrees that really don't confer job skills.

t.

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Author: alstroemeria Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14324 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/14/2008 5:46 PM
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Medical care is a commodity like any other.

Field surgery is like a crate of onions and treating diabetes is like subscribing to cable TV? Or did you mean 3-months of radiation/chemo are like owning an oil well and getting a root canal is like harvesting a field of soybeans?

Feh. Medical care is like nothing else.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14325 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/14/2008 9:34 PM
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<<Medical care is a commodity like any other.

Field surgery is like a crate of onions and treating diabetes is like subscribing to cable TV? Or did you mean 3-months of radiation/chemo are like owning an oil well and getting a root canal is like harvesting a field of soybeans?

Feh. Medical care is like nothing else.
>>


Meaning it's absurd to say that you have a claim on the skills of highly trained people and institutions if you were a fool and failed to protect yourself in case you wanted such services.

In short, there is zero "right" to health care in my book. If you want it, better plan on how you are going to be able to pay for what you want.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14327 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/14/2008 11:08 PM
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you go without auto insurance and wreck your car...no one 'provides' for you

you go without homeowners insurance and a chimney fire burns your house down....no one 'provides' a new house for you.

you go without medical insurance...why should everyone else pony up for you?

and if you spend all your money on other things, and don't stock up the pantry, you really expect that folks are going to bail you out with food week after week as you blow your income on lottery tickets or alcohol or drugs or gambling?....or if you are too lazy to get a job and work?

Heck, we provide temporary shelter and food for a short time for those without, but we don't buy them new cars or new houses if they screw up and don't have insurance.

If you think folks are entitled to hundreds of thousands or millions of bucks of medical treatment because 'they want it', we really disagree on that.....

t.

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Author: Capcon Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14328 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/14/2008 11:12 PM
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Well, actually we do, especially if you build your house below sea level, on a tropical coast, or in the path of frequent brush fires.

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Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/14/2008 11:59 PM
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In short, there is zero "right" to health care in my book.

It's not a right if somebody loses in order for you to exercise it. If you exercise your right to free speech, nobody loses. If you exercise your right to lawful assembly, your right to bear arms, your right to refuse to self-incriminate, nobody loses. But in order to exercise your "right" to health care, the gov't has to take stuff from other people by force in order to provide it.

Let's be honest and at least get the terminology right: It's medical welfare, not a right.

--fleg

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14332 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/15/2008 9:29 AM
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In short, there is zero "right" to health care in my book. If you want it, better plan on how you are going to be able to pay for what you want.



Seattle Pioneer





You still haven't explained how health care is a "commodity" and education is not. If only people who can pay get health care, why not only people who can pay receiving education?

I don't, personally, see the difference. And I'm still waiting for you to explain just how these two services differ.

AM

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14334 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/15/2008 11:44 AM
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<<You still haven't explained how health care is a "commodity" and education is not. If only people who can pay get health care, why not only people who can pay receiving education?

I don't, personally, see the difference. And I'm still waiting for you to explain just how these two services differ.

AM
>>


The same rules apply to education, in my opinion. Too many people who have no desire to be educated and no talent for it are in school as is.


Seattle Pioneer

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14335 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/15/2008 12:29 PM
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AM: "You still haven't explained how health care is a "commodity" and education is not. If only people who can pay get health care, why not only people who can pay receiving education"

Education is provided (at a standard level) for kids only.

If you want college education, you compete for the slots available. You may get state subsidized higher education, potentially a scholarship if finanicially deserving, or college loans, but most youngster have parents that pay a significant part of their higher education costs. No free lunch and not universal.

You have subsidized community colleges, but they are not 'free' either. You pay a significant part of the costs.

If you want a Masters or Doctorate degree, or MD degree, you are going to incur significant cost to get it (or perhaps get it via Military or Government program, or via a company benefit program). No free lunch, and certainly not universal.

If you want 'better' education then you pay - lots of kids are in private K-12 schools when parents wish to afford a better education.

There is no 'right' to education. We, as a society, have agreed to provide a basic education (K-12) to students since not having an educated society results in much lower earnings potential and lower productivity for society.

However, even our system is now over bloated, technically obsolete and basically ruined by the teacher's union and their luddite mentality, along with the 'PC' thinking that 'poor Jimmy can't fail' even if he can't learn, and 'failure' is so devastating to 'people's self image'......

Like auto and house insurance, people buy what they need to protect themselves. Now, same for health insurance. If you want health insurance through work, get a job with those benefits. If you want higher education, get a job that will pay for your college degree or Masters or other educational work (maybe self study program). Or pay for it yourself.

t.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14336 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/15/2008 1:02 PM
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<<You still haven't explained how health care is a "commodity" and education is not. If only people who can pay get health care, why not only people who can pay receiving education?

I don't, personally, see the difference. And I'm still waiting for you to explain just how these two services differ.

AM
>>


The same rules apply to education, in my opinion. Too many people who have no desire to be educated and no talent for it are in school as is.


Seattle Pioneer


----------------------------------


Oy.
I can only shake my head over that, SP.
I would fear greatly for this country if you were in charge of it.
But, at least, your unconcern for your fellow citizens seems to be consistent.

AM

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Author: mendomann Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14337 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/15/2008 2:47 PM
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Sorry. Medical care is a commodity like any other. If you want it, plan to earn the money to buy it.

Yes, that is what the insurance companies would like you to believe. Sorry, but Mr. Obama and I disagree with you. In any civilized society health care is a right, especially for children or would you have them earn money to buy it too?

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Author: HoracePuckey Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14339 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/15/2008 11:28 PM
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AM: You still haven't explained how health care is a "commodity" and education is not. If only people who can pay get health care, why not only people who can pay receiving education?

Silly AM! SP doesn't answer questions. He recites what he heard from Rush.

Horace

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14381 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/28/2008 3:41 PM
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>In a Republican world, they are either supposed to die and just get out of everybody else's way -- or they are supposed to go to the nearest church, hat in hand, and beg someone to stop their lives long enough to help them.

In a Democratic world, they would be on Universal Healthcare and would never have to worry about anything except getting well.

Or finding a different country that isn't under socialistic delusions. Check the border hospitals sometime for the amount of Canadians.
Kathleen

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14382 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/28/2008 3:43 PM
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There you go again -- making stuff up.
Since we have NEVER tried Universal Healthcare, there is no way you could POSSIBLY know how long it would take to get care if you were seriously sick. You are blowing smoke out your arse once again, SP. Please stop it. It's not attractive.


There are a lot of folks smart enough to learn form others mistakes.

Tell you what, if we ever DO get Universal Healthcare, YOU can continue to pay $818/month for your health insurance -- AFTER you pay your taxes so that the rest of us won't have to worry anymore about that.

And please! Let me thank you in advance for your generosity.


Why are you so nasty?
Kathleen

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14383 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/28/2008 3:44 PM
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I, at least, have historical data to back my predictions up.
You have none.


Please provide.
Kathleen

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14384 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/28/2008 3:48 PM
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Why are you so nasty?
Kathleen

-----------


Aren't you a little late to this party, dear?

AM

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14385 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/28/2008 4:22 PM
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A universal health care system might have faults but at least everyone would have a chance at health care. That is not the case now.

That is utter and complete bullhockies. Unlike so many of you that are so willing to take other people's money, I have been without insurance, etc., for years at a time. I am severely epileptic, and yet, amazingly, somehow I was still able to get care and medications.

"How can that be??", you ask. "It's simply not possible in this horrible, heartless country. You could not have received medical care and prescriptions without Big Brother Government. NOTHING can be accomplished without Big Brother Government!" Amazingly, I paid out of pocket and I shopped doctors. The doctor I have now for my entire family we started going to because he accepted cash, and would work with me about payments and costs.

BTW, we already have universal healthcare, you just do not want to acknowledge it. We have Medicare, Medicaid, and no hospital is allowed to turn away a person in need of medical care - payment ability not withstanding. You are calling Medicare everything but a dirty dog, yet you think giving the government more money and more power is going to improve the situation? Do you think it would have helped things if we gave Ken Lay more money and power?

There have been many examples of Universal Helathcare, and all of them have failed miserably. What about the Soviet Union? They had universal healthcare. How about Cuba? They have universal healthcare? The only reason the ever-touted Canadian healthcare system has worked as long as it has is because their entire population is approximately 1/10th of the US, we are next door providing the thing they do not, and they do not have the unbelievable amount of illegal aliens draining the system that we have in the US, and now THAT system is overflowing, too.

Please study some facts before telling everyone how horrible they are because they do not want to be subject to indentured servitude.
Kathleen

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Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/28/2008 4:25 PM
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Please explain how it differs from education -- which is also something that everyone needs. Are you suggesting that if people want their children educated they should plan to earn the money to buy it? And those who cannot earn enough money to pay it... what happens to them? Lifelong ignorance?

You mean like the fantastic public education system we have now?
Yes, people can plan to pay for their child's education. I am doing that now. What is wrong with wanting people to be responsible?
Kathleen

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14387 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/28/2008 4:29 PM
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Field surgery is like a crate of onions and treating diabetes is like subscribing to cable TV? Or did you mean 3-months of radiation/chemo are like owning an oil well and getting a root canal is like harvesting a field of soybeans?

Feh. Medical care is like nothing else.


Yes, it is like every other commodity. You just do not want to admit it. I have bartered for medical services just as I would for any other commodity. Just because you haven't doesn't change the fact that it is still a commodity.
I also grow a lot of my food. Just because you do not does not change the fact that I do.
Kathleen

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14388 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/28/2008 4:48 PM
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You still haven't explained how health care is a "commodity" and education is not. If only people who can pay get health care, why not only people who can pay receiving education?

I don't, personally, see the difference. And I'm still waiting for you to explain just how these two services differ.


Education IS a commodity, and many parents pay extra to give their children a decent education. I am one of those people. I pay twice to educate my children. I pay for homeschooling, then I still have to pay for a horrible, miserable school system that fails a large portion of it's consumers. Our school system is lagging so far behind other countries, it's pitiful. We have a governmental monopoly on education and it has proven to be a failure. This is the reason homeschooling, parochial, and private schools are growing exponentially. I have literally 3-4 parents asking seriously how they can get started homeschooling EVERY WEEK. Do you have any idea how many students that translate into? These are not fundamentalists as the media is so delighted to portray homeschoolers. Our private and parochial schools are having to turn away students in droves, yet you still think the government does a good job of educating the students. Students from other countries actually laugh at our students.

Even with all this evidence, you wish to hand over our healthcare to a system that cannot handle what it has. Why do you persist in the delusion that government can do better than the private sector when it has proven time and time again that it cannot?
Kathleen

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14389 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/28/2008 4:53 PM
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Oy.
I can only shake my head over that, SP.
I would fear greatly for this country if you were in charge of it.
But, at least, your unconcern for your fellow citizens seems to be consistent.


Tell me, AM, how much volunteer work do you do? How much do you contribute to helping kids in poverty areas? How often do you even go NEAR a poverty area? How about you tell us all the wonderful things you are doing BEFORE you accuse so many people of being uncaring.
Kathleen

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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14390 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/28/2008 4:57 PM
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Even with all this evidence, you wish to hand over our healthcare to a system that cannot handle what it has. Why do you persist in the delusion that government can do better than the private sector when it has proven time and time again that it cannot?

Dr. Lyle Rossiter offers some insight in his new book, "The Liberal Mind: The Psychological Causes of Political Madness." He says: "Like spoiled, angry children, they rebel against the normal responsibilities of adulthood and demand that a parental government meet their needs from cradle to grave."

Hard to argue with that. And it also addresses your earlier point about the mean-ness displayed on this thread.

--fleg

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14392 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/28/2008 5:08 PM
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Aren't you a little late to this party, dear?

I'm late for everything. You haven't answered my question. Why are you so nasty?
Kathleen

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14393 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/28/2008 5:13 PM
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Dr. Lyle Rossiter offers some insight in his new book, "The Liberal Mind: The Psychological Causes of Political Madness." He says: "Like spoiled, angry children, they rebel against the normal responsibilities of adulthood and demand that a parental government meet their needs from cradle to grave."

Hard to argue with that. And it also addresses your earlier point about the mean-ness displayed on this thread.


I'll have to check that out. I've never understood why some extreme socialists (they are not liberals, liberal means generous and open-minded, none of which describes them) seem incapable of carrying on a conversation without hurling insults, and just being unbelievably obnoxious. That would explain a lot.
Kathleen

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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14394 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/28/2008 7:04 PM
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I've never understood why some extreme socialists (they are not liberals, liberal means generous and open-minded, none of which describes them) seem incapable of carrying on a conversation without hurling insults, and just being unbelievably obnoxious.

I agree with your definition of liberal as the classical definition. I go along with its common usage today, which is pretty much socialist with an element of nuts (see Nancy Pelosi).

And to stay more-or-less on-topic, here's another reason why it's not a good idea to have gov't running anything--they can't even manage their own employees:

http://www.muninetguide.com/articles/Vallejo-Bankruptcy-Fili...

Consider this staggering comparison: State and local public employees comprise approximately 12 percent of the U.S. workforce and have an estimated $800 billion or more of unfunded pension liabilities (not counting other post-employment benefits). By comparison, employees in the private or corporate sector make up about 78 percent of the U.S. workforce with an estimated $450 billion of unfunded liabilities.
_____________________________________________________________

Many of those government employees won't be getting the pensions they thought they would--just like most patients under socialized medicine won't be getting the quality of care they thought they would.

--fleg

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Author: vickifool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14433 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/29/2008 12:25 PM
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Why are you so nasty?
Kathleen


Let me introduce you to a couple of features that I particularly like about the Motley Fool discussion boards.

1. Up at the top, by the poster's name is a frowny-face. If you click on that, you won't see posts by people who annoy you. I wish AngelMay would frowny-face Seattle Pioneer, but I suspect they both like what they are doing.

2. In the line above that is an "ignore thread" option. When threads get too pissy, you can click that. This thread has reached that point for me.

Vickifool

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Author: Ben1950 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14440 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/29/2008 4:11 PM
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"Please explain how it differs from education -- which is also something that everyone needs. Are you suggesting that if people want their children educated they should plan to earn the money to buy it? And those who cannot earn enough money to pay it... what happens to them? Lifelong ignorance?"

At the risk of also being labeled 'late to the party' and in the hopes of injecting a little humor I would answer the above by stating that what happens tothose who cannot earn enough money to pay for education is that they become Democrats.

Jack

;-)

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Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/29/2008 9:32 PM
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At the risk of also being labeled 'late to the party' and in the hopes of injecting a little humor I would answer the above by stating that what happens tothose who cannot earn enough money to pay for education is that they become Democrats.

Jack

;-)




At the risk of once again being labeled "nasty" for simply expressing an opinion which differs, I would respond by saying that Democrats see things very differently from Republicans. Your response makes it clear that you think people should pay for education directly. Democrats think of the nation as "government by the people, of the people, and for the people". Republicans think of the nation as "government vs. the people."

Democrats realize that what we need is an educated citizenry. Who knows where the next Thomas Edison might be? If that child can only get the education his poor parents can afford we will never know. But if that child has the same advantages of ALL other children -- without discrimination based on wealth -- we will all benefit in the end.

If only the children of the wealthy are able to afford a good education, this country will not survive. In fact, at this moment in time I wonder really whether it will survive in any event -- we've traveled so far down the wrong roads for too many years.

Education, in spite of what some have come here and said, is NOT a commodity to be purchased only by those with means. We, the people, should demand -- and pay for through our taxes -- quality education across the board for all our children. It is the only hope for a successful future.


AM

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14452 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/29/2008 9:59 PM
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AM" Democrats think of the nation as "government by the people, of the people, and for the people". Republicans think of the nation as "government vs. the people.""

Ha...democrats think they are 'entitled' to take from the rest of the folks who are productive. Democrats believe in the wealth redistribution principle.

The US government is supposed to be an 'umbrella' government over the states, and most things are to be governed by the states. That is why you have state education, not 'national education'. It is why you have state drivers licenses and professional licenses and yes, even doctor certification. It is why you vote for state representatives.

The founders thought of the feds as having VERY limited powers.

The republicans want the least government necessary for the the economy to functoin, and for the rights of people to be protected, and to provide for the safety of the country (defense).

The dems want everyone dependent upon the government for everything, giving them all the 'power' over their life.




"Democrats realize that what we need is an educated citizenry."

We have free public education through 12th grade. MOst states have state college systems, most of which are basically free for the poorest families. What more you need? Private tutors?


"Who knows where the next Thomas Edison might be?"

You better read up on your history. Thomas Edison started out as an itinerant telegrapher. He spent years doing that. He was a tinkerer. He didn't graduate from MIT. He barely made it through school.



AM"If that child can only get the education his poor parents can afford we will never know."

Heck, Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard....didn't need a college education to use his brain to start a 100 billion dollar industry, did he?

Steve Jobs and Wozniak started Apple computer in a garage.....


AM "But if that child has the same advantages of ALL other children -- without discrimination based on wealth -- we will all benefit in the end."

You ever see the movie The Rocket Boys? Maybe you should, Inspiring....boys from a WV coal mining town in Appalachia go on to careers in space......the poorest of the poor......real life story....

AM: ""If only the children of the wealthy are able to afford a good education, this country will not survive."

Dang...we got a zillion kids in college now......Are all their parents wealthy? come on, AM...stop your lib dem whine....



AM: "Education, in spite of what some have come here and said, is NOT a commodity to be purchased only by those with means."

a) it is a commodity beyond high school. Just watch all the ads.....

b) you don't need a college education to be a plumber, electrician, HVAC tech, auto mechanic, physical therapist, Xray tech, MRI operator, crane operator, bricklayer, and thousands of other jobs. SEattle Pioneer will tell you learning how to fix furnaces will keep you employed through thick and thin......

c) nearly every state has provisions for college education for those needing assistance.....and most colleges will offer full scholarships to those who need it and meet entry requirements.


AM: We, the people, should demand -- and pay for through our taxes -- quality education across the board for all our children. It is the only hope for a successful future."

Ha...and I suppose we provide them with a good car to get to school, a beer allowance and everything else? Since when? We have zillions in tax dollars for education.

To a lib dem, you can never tax enough and take away enough from those who actually earn to give to those who feel 'deprived'....

t.

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Author: HoracePuckey Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14453 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/29/2008 10:21 PM
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AM: At the risk of once again being labeled "nasty" for simply expressing an opinion which differs, I would respond by saying that Democrats see things very differently from Republicans. Your response makes it clear that you think people should pay for education directly. Democrats think of the nation as "government by the people, of the people, and for the people". Republicans think of the nation as "government vs. the people."

I didn't read it that way at all. He thinks only uneducated, poor people become democrats.

Horace
... Millionaire PhD Democrat

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14454 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/29/2008 10:57 PM
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<<AM"If that child can only get the education his poor parents can afford we will never know."

Heck, Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard....didn't need a college education to use his brain to start a 100 billion dollar industry, did he?

Steve Jobs and Wozniak started Apple computer in a garage.....

>>


The root of male oppression of women is clearly that men have access to more garages than do women.

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14460 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/30/2008 12:18 AM
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The root of male oppression of women is clearly that men have access to more garages than do women.

When we got married, Sandman stole my tools because I had better stuff than he did.
Kathleen
tinkerer

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Author: tedhimself Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14461 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/30/2008 12:21 AM
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DD2 owns and uses all the tools in her family. Her DH barely knows the difference between a plus and a minus screwdriver.
Ted

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Author: HoracePuckey Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14462 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/30/2008 12:26 AM
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DD2 owns and uses all the tools in her family. Her DH barely knows the difference between a plus and a minus screwdriver.
Ted

But does she know a left handed Phillips from a right handed?

Horace

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14463 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/30/2008 12:28 AM
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Education, in spite of what some have come here and said, is NOT a commodity to be purchased only by those with means.

So what about Rosetta Stone, Abeka, Alpha Omega, Singapore Math, Math-U-See, University of Phoenix, ITT, DeVry, and all the thousands of companies that cater to education? Don't they count?
Kathleen

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14466 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/30/2008 8:53 AM
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AM is just trying to turn "education through the PhD" level into a 'right' that every lib dem is 'entitled to'.

Then they'll go on to "free universal health care" and beyond, trying to redistribute every dime of 'wealth' they perceive.

Their goal, obviously, is communism, where everyone 'contributes' based upon their abilities (talents, skills, initiative, drive) and everyone benefits based upon their needs. The only problem is that kills all incentive to work and produce, since you get the same whether you sit at home and bitch or work 14 hours a day.

t.

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Author: Ben1950 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14470 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/30/2008 2:49 PM
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At the risk of once again being labeled "nasty" for simply expressing an opinion which differs, I would respond by saying that Democrats see things very differently from Republicans. Your response makes it clear that you think people should pay for education directly. Democrats think of the nation as "government by the people, of the people, and for the people". Republicans think of the nation as "government vs. the people."

Angel,

I do not percieve you as nasty. I do think you are a very compassionate person who cares about others in society. I, on the other hand, am only slightly compassionate and therein lies the rub between democrat and republican IMHO.

My perception of a democrat is someone who expects ALL of society to fund those programs only democrats deem positive and look to government to provide that funding via taxes/fees/etc. Republicans feel that if a program is truly worth supporting it will draw sufficient donations from the populace to keep it afloat. If a program cannot garner sufficient public support it must not be THAT worthwile to begin with.

Jack

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Author: Ben1950 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14471 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/30/2008 2:51 PM
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No Horace, you misread my post. I only think poor people become democrats, not uneducated people. I am enough of a realist to believe that BOTH democrats AND republicans share the pool of ignorant people.

Jack

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14472 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/30/2008 3:06 PM
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Angel,

I do not percieve you as nasty. I do think you are a very compassionate person who cares about others in society. I, on the other hand, am only slightly compassionate and therein lies the rub between democrat and republican IMHO.

My perception of a democrat is someone who expects ALL of society to fund those programs only democrats deem positive and look to government to provide that funding via taxes/fees/etc. Republicans feel that if a program is truly worth supporting it will draw sufficient donations from the populace to keep it afloat. If a program cannot garner sufficient public support it must not be THAT worthwile to begin with.

Jack

------------------------


Jack,

Democrats don't think that EVERYTHING should be funded across the board by taxes -- only those things that are essential to the well-being of the nation as a whole. That includes, IMO, education, healthcare, the interstate highway system, the military, government departments and organizations that oversee and regulate to the benefit of the citizens.

Depending upon donations to keep afloat important human benefits is a sure way of making absolutely certain they do not survive.

Frankly, I don't like the way my tax dollars have been spent by the military over the past 6 years. But that does not mean that I feel the military should be run on donations. Whether I like it or not, the military is essential to the well-being of the nation (just as I feel are education and healthcare) and so should be supported by our tax dollars.

I really don't think a nation can be run on donations.

AM

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14478 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 12/31/2008 11:57 AM
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AM: "Democrats don't think that EVERYTHING should be funded across the board by taxes -- only those things that are essential to the well-being of the nation as a whole. That includes, IMO, education, healthcare, the interstate highway system, the military, government departments and organizations that oversee and regulate to the benefit of the citizens."

and food....

and housing

and 'government departments'??????how many? Which ones? Should we keep paying people not to grow rice? Those that haven't grown rice for 50 years now, but get millions a year 'not to grow rice' on their 30 acre front lawns of their 10 million dollar homes in south Texas? Just another 'government department' and 'another government program' to 'subsidize' farmers and try to regulate farm commodity prices. Did you notice rice went to a record high last year, and the amount in storage approached zero?

oh, but those 'government departments'....the ones that find 'spotted owls' endangered by logging, when it turns out that 50,000 loggers (job) were 'eliminated' because folks couldn't cut down any trees - which wasn't the problem.....

government has run amok......

more departments to 'define' poverty, then hire 50,000 workers to give away whatever they can.....which usually results in more folks being in poverty so the departments can hire another 30,000 'workers' to handle the situation they 'defined' by new definitions......government departments exist to grow themselves, get bigger and bigger budgets so their managers can justify more and more salary for themselves. That's all.....


and, no...the government isn't there to 'benefit' citizens. Most of the services should be provided by the STATES...which the fed government only controlling very narrow, specific areas....like international treaties, the military, etc.

Even the 'interstates' were all built by the individual states with only a part of the money provided by the government......

AM's definition of 'benefit to individuals' likely comes back to communism, where everyone 'gets' according to their need....regardless of their incentive or ability to do productive work.....equal 'outcomes'.....


t.

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Author: Grumpybiker Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14493 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 1/1/2009 9:31 PM
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http://grumpypix.multiply.com/photos/album/3/Online#375

Grumpy

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Author: HoracePuckey Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 14495 of 19224
Subject: Re: that was fun. Date: 1/3/2009 2:42 PM
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http://grumpypix.multiply.com/photos/album/3/Online#375

Grumpy

Seems kinda odd, coming from someone whose career was US army and who has US paid health care, pension, and PX/commissary privileges. Socialist? Communist? Or just a suitable way for a government to work?

NTTAWWT

Horace

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