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Author: anniesdad Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1947664  
Subject: The ACA, a chart Date: 10/31/2013 5:47 PM
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http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2013/10/31/the_chart_that_...
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Author: Stonewashed Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908117 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 10/31/2013 6:28 PM
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80% unaffected FOR NOW. Remember those who are covered by their employer are exempt from complying for now, until such time their current policy expires.

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Author: laissezFaireOne Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908120 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 10/31/2013 6:31 PM
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ROTFLOL Who ever created that chart used best case scenarios for each of the categories.


Bottomline: Everybody (Except the wealthy and politically elite of course) loses with Obamacare due lower healthcare quality, longer wait times, and higher prices.

Don't believe me just wait.

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908126 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 10/31/2013 6:40 PM
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laissezFaireOne analyzes,

ROTFLOL Who ever created that chart used best case scenarios for each of the categories.


Bottomline: Everybody (Except the wealthy and politically elite of course) loses with Obamacare due lower healthcare quality, longer wait times, and higher prices.

</snip>


Obamacare is going to save me over $500/month (that's enough to make the lease payment on a new Mercedes) and I get to keep my doctor.

It's a big step up from the Bush/Cheney Chickenhawkcare I "enjoyed" over the last decade.

intercst

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Author: Stonewashed Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908129 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 10/31/2013 6:43 PM
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Obamacare is going to save me over $500/month (that's enough to make the lease payment on a new Mercedes) and I get to keep my doctor.

It's a big step up from the Bush/Cheney Chickenhawkcare I "enjoyed" over the last decade.

intercst
______________

I am so haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaappy to subsidize your Mercedes payment in lieu of replacing my 9 year old car.

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Author: culcha Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908168 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 7:51 AM
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Don't believe me just wait.

OK. (That was pretty much my plan anyway.)

culcha

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Author: MrCheeryO Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908172 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 8:05 AM
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Here's What's Wrong With That Obamacare 'Winners And Losers' Chart That Everyone Is Passing Around

This group of non-winners includes:

...People who decide they (for whatever reason) don't want to buy insurance coverage, who will still be uninsured and will have to pay a new penalty....

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-whats-wrong-with-this-o...

I'm not sure how you can call a free rider in the system a non-winner. Not a very good response to the original chart, imo.

Still, it would be nice to know far more about where the data for that chart came from. Aside from the people passing it around. Stuff that purports to be data without any way to check up on its accuracy is almost as bad as questionable or completely false anecdotes. Probably just a reaction to the onslaught of lies about the ACA that should eventually correct itself.

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908205 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 9:56 AM
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Only subsidized people will pay less

Everyone else will pay double/triple..

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908208 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 9:58 AM
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Anyways the chart is flawed, its a current snapshot of the 80% who have employer healthcare stress current snapshot, the trend already taking place is employer healthcare plans are being cancelled forcing these 80% into the exchanges 1 by 1, in these exchanges the vast majority of these 80% who are employed won't qualify for subsidies so they will end up paying double what they once did.

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908212 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 10:22 AM
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Only subsidized people will pay less

Everyone else will pay double/triple..

---

Could I borrow your crystal ball for a bit? I'm doing a bit of a reshuffle on my investments...looking for some double/triple stocks.

Oh - first I should ask; has it ever actually worked???

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Author: jdp245 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908227 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 11:05 AM
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Could I borrow your crystal ball for a bit? I'm doing a bit of a reshuffle on my investments...looking for some double/triple stocks.

I think that crystal ball will show that every stock is going to double or triple. You should just buy them all.

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Author: WendyBG Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Winner! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908247 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 11:37 AM
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Easy for you to shrug off the ones who lose their choice of a "substandard" plan and are forced to buy a more expensive one.

Why should I have to pay for pediatric dental care and pregnancy/ childbirth converage? Why shouldn't I be allowed to take the risk of higher deductibles to reduce my per-month cost?

DH and I are in the "small category" of people whose health insurance costs will rise under the ACA. We are both healthy and have had catastrophic plans for many years. Under the ACA, our health insurance is going uu 45%! We will be forced to pay $1100 per month! That is as much as a mortgage would be!

In WA State, one which is being held up as a success, the vast majority of ACA signups are Medicaid. TPTB seem to be surprised that few paying customers are signing up. Too bad that the Medicaid subscribers will be a drain on the system. Why aren't the rich buyers of private health insurance signing up?

DUH! How many families can afford an extra mortgage? How many families can suddenly cough up hundreds of dollars extra per month for any expenditure at all, let alone one they might not need (health insurance)?

There will be a nasty unintended consequence. By removing the choice of lower-cost "substandard" catastrophic policies, families may be forced to drop health insurance altogether even if they have to pay a penalty.

The U.S. needs a single-payer system. Barring that, the U.S. needs complete market freedom for the insurance industry to create a wide variety of policies.

Obamacare appears to be the worst of all worlds by pandering to the insurance companies and forcing everyone into the same government-mandated mold.

Wendy

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Author: WendyBG Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Winner! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908248 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 11:39 AM
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<Obamacare is going to save me over $500/month>

Obamacare is going to cost DH and me an extra $500 per month.
Wendy

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908263 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 12:18 PM
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Anyways the chart is flawed, its a current snapshot of the 80% who have employer healthcare stress current snapshot, the trend already taking place is employer healthcare plans are being cancelled forcing these 80% into the exchanges 1 by 1, in these exchanges the vast majority of these 80% who are employed won't qualify for subsidies so they will end up paying double what they once did.

You're dismissing the chart because it doesn't fit with your belief. And you're shouting "cancelled" for dramatic effect.

But here's what conservatives won't tell you, lest it undermine their theatrics: Many insurance plans are shutting down because they don't meet the higher bar of quality benefits required under Obamacare, and of those people who lose access to their plans, many will pay less and all will have better and more comprehensive options...

This whole kerfuffle ignores that insurance plans were changing all the time and premiums were skyrocketing pre-Obamacare. Suddenly, a whole range of bad behavior on the part of insurance companies is blamed on the Affordable Care Act.


http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/29/opinion/kohn-affordable-care-a...

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Author: laissezFaireOne Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908266 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 12:23 PM
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"But here's what conservatives won't tell you, lest it undermine their theatrics: Many insurance plans are shutting down because they don't meet the higher bar of quality benefits required under Obamacare, and of those people who lose access to their plans, many will pay less and all will have better and more comprehensive options...

"

Isn't this whole point for the cancellations?

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908270 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 12:28 PM
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"and of those people who lose access to their plans, many will pay less and all will have better and more comprehensive options..."


That is what it claims, but that's not what is happening in reality.

We are beyond "if you like your plan you can keep it" and "you will save $2,500 on premiums"

We are at the reality level now, reality is a much different picture. The only people saving money or paying the same are those who are getting subsidies, everyone who doesn't get subsidies are finding out their premiums and deductibles are doubling.

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Author: jdp245 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908282 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 12:51 PM
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Under the ACA, our health insurance is going uu 45%!

Wendy, it would be helpful to the conversation if you could share details about the coverage your catastrophic plan provided, such as deductibles, out of pocket maximums, lifetime maximums, routine care coverage, and how all of this compares to the $1100 a month plan.

How many families can suddenly cough up hundreds of dollars extra per month for any expenditure at all, let alone one they might not need (health insurance)?

Everybody needs health insurance. If you do not have it, or are under-insured, you are merely free-riding and laying off your risk on the rest of society.

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Author: jdp245 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908283 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 12:54 PM
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The only people saving money or paying the same are those who are getting subsidies, everyone who doesn't get subsidies are finding out their premiums and deductibles are doubling.

Saying this over and over again is not going to make it true. Some see increases and some see decreases.

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908291 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 1:17 PM
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WendyBG writes,

DH and I are in the "small category" of people whose health insurance costs will rise under the ACA. We are both healthy and have had catastrophic plans for many years. Under the ACA, our health insurance is going uu 45%! We will be forced to pay $1100 per month! That is as much as a mortgage would be!

The U.S. needs a single-payer system. Barring that, the U.S. needs complete market freedom for the insurance industry to create a wide variety of policies.

Obamacare appears to be the worst of all worlds by pandering to the insurance companies and forcing everyone into the same government-mandated mold.

</snip>


Tru Dat.

Obamacare is exposing the madness and extra expense of keeping a GOP-approved, for-profit insurer between you and your doctor. The maze of mandates and Gov't subsidies are in service of the insurance industry -- they improve health care not a whit.

However I take issue with the the idea that we should just have complete freedom in the health insurance market to let insurers sell any kind of crappy, worthless policy they can devise. Hopefully you are sufficiently educated to understand your high deductible policy, and sufficiently wealthy to pay that large deductible year after year if you get an expensive chronic condition. But that describes just a small fraction of the people buying these high-deductible, limited benefit health insurance policies. Many can't afford the deductibles when they get sick and are turned away from the hospital if they have a "non-emergency" problem like cancer. The nation is best served by eliminating these things.

intercst

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908319 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 2:06 PM
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Wendy says

The U.S. needs a single-payer system. Barring that, the U.S. needs complete market freedom for the insurance industry to create a wide variety of policies.

Obamacare appears to be the worst of all worlds by pandering to the insurance companies and forcing everyone into the same government-mandated mold.

=/i>I look at it this way: Either Obamacare will work after all, after some repairs and adjustments, or it will turn out to be our very inefficient way of getting to a single-payer system.


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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908320 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 2:09 PM
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Skippy says

"and of those people who lose access to their plans, many will pay less and all will have better and more comprehensive options..."

That is what it claims, but that's not what is happening in reality.

You don't have the faintest idea what is happening in reality. Nobody does at this point.

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Author: WendyBG Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Winner! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908324 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 2:23 PM
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<Everybody needs health insurance. If you do not have it, or are under-insured, you are merely free-riding and laying off your risk on the rest of society. >

No, DH and I would pay out-of-pocket.

The most logical system would be either:

1. China. If you don't have the cash, you don't get care. (Insurance could negotiate rates and/ or provide cash.) There are NO laws mandating emergency care, so people are simply sent out of the hospital to die if they can't pay.

2. Europe. Single payer system where there is no insurance industry to increase costs and milk profits.

The U.S. system manages to provide the worst of all systems. The free-riders take advantage of laws that force hospitals to care for those who can't pay -- in our area, 1/3 of all care.

Wendy

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Author: TMFSpeck Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908401 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 4:29 PM
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ROTFLOL Who ever created that chart used best case scenarios for each of the categories.

The guy who supplied the numbers for that chart was Jonathan Gruber, an M.I.T. economist and an architect of both Mitt Romney's health-care plan in Massachusetts and Obama’s Affordable Care Act.

I'm anxiously awaiting your chart that uses "better" numbers than Mr. Gruber's.

Speck

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Author: t0bes Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908405 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 4:35 PM
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My medical insurance for a family of four is well over $3K per month - mainly due to my wife having medical issues, even though she's only in her 40s.
Fortunately my employer pays the bulk of that but my payment is still almost $1K/month.
Under the ACA the cost will drop by about 66%. Fantastic news for me, my family and my employer!

The Republicans are in a hole but just don't know when to stop digging

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Author: jdp245 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908407 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 4:39 PM
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<Everybody needs health insurance. If you do not have it, or are under-insured, you are merely free-riding and laying off your risk on the rest of society.>

No, DH and I would pay out-of-pocket.


Easy to say. But not very many have the assets to cover the costs of many serious acute medical issues, let alone lifelong ones. I doubt most would rather die than use Medicaid and become a burden on society.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908413 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 4:47 PM
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What a load of crap. You're aware that the employer mandate isn't in effect, yes? What guarantee do you have that those plans won't be declared unfit by the AllKnowingGodsOfSmart over at HHS?

And what guarantee do you have that employers won't be dumping people onto the exchanges en masse?

Save yourself the trouble: you don't have either one.

Ooops.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908416 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 4:55 PM
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<Everybody needs health insurance. If you do not have it, or are under-insured, you are merely free-riding and laying off your risk on the rest of society.>
__________________________________

And the solution is to give it to you for free? Problem solved?

If we wanted a welfare program expansion we should have merely done one, rather than mucking up everyone's medical care in a ham handed attempt to torture the middle class, charge them more, give them less coverage and demonize them

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908420 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 5:11 PM
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If we wanted a welfare program expansion we should have merely done one, rather than mucking up everyone's medical care in a ham handed attempt to torture the middle class, charge them more, give them less coverage and demonize them.</i.

Maybe, but Republicans and the insurance industry would never have gone for that. At least the ACA has insurance industry support.

And universal health care isn't welfare.


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Author: THEMATHISNEAR Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908427 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 5:25 PM
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I'm anxiously awaiting your chart that uses "better" numbers than Mr. Gruber's.
Speck


Speck, every day when I think you're about as uninformed as anyone can be, you set a new personal record.

Would THIS be the same Mr. Gruber?

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2012/profile-gruber-economics-...

Gruber served as a student representative on a committee helping to reshape MIT’s undergraduate curriculum, and got an internship at the Brookings Institution in Washington, where he was “bitten by the liberal policy-advocacy bug.”

Well, I believe so! He's a devout liberal, and that means he's, in all likelihood, a pathological liar. Most liberals are, because they have to be. Their ideas suck. They say bald-faced lies like, "If you like your health care plan, you can keep it", even when they know you can't.

“It’s going to be incredibly exciting to figure out all the things this law is doing,” Gruber says. “There are these feedback loops of policy affecting research, which affects policy, and I think that’s where economics is at its best.”

Yes, Mr. Gruber, it's incredibly exciting to force all Americans into Procrustean health care plans that jack up the cost and destroy jobs. And I absolutely agree that there are 'feedback loops'. One is when you eat tainted food, and have to vomit. That's just like how young people are treating Zerocare. Another feedback loop is how informed voters deal with politicians who lie to their face about how they can keep their health care plan, or, at least the politicians who voted for such a POS plan.

Have a day.

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Author: THEMATHISNEAR Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908428 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 5:26 PM
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mucking up everyone's medical care in a ham handed attempt to torture the middle class, charge them more, give them less coverage and demonize them

That's the most succinct, accurate description of Zerocare that I've seen. Nicely done.

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Author: TMFSpeck Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908434 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 5:51 PM
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Speck, every day when I think you're about as uninformed as anyone can be, you set a new personal record.

Would THIS be the same Mr. Gruber?


One in the same.

Your ad hominem on Dr. Gruber (and me) doesn't really make for anything more than a fallacious argument. I'm still awaiting the chart that refutes his numbers. Of course, it should be by someone with Dr. Gruber's equivalent experience and expertise in health care law.

I can't wait.

Cheers,

Speck

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Author: THEMATHISNEAR Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908438 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 6:30 PM
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Your ad hominem on Dr. Gruber (and me) doesn't really make for anything more than a fallacious argument.

No, fallacious is relying on numbers supplied by a former bureaucrat who has a built-in bias toward the outcome he advocates. Much like the 'hide the decline' global warming liars, he has a vested interest in seeing Zerocare continue to be implemented. For instance, he can say that 80% of people are unaffected, and that may be technically true today, but if he is the anointed 'expert', it would be disingenuous for him not to supply information that would indicate that these people will be affected soon. Yet, that will happen, because it is an economic certitude that when you increase the number of high risk people in a risk pool that are not paying premiums commensurate with their risk profile AND you mandate coverage for additional goods and services for everyone, THEN everyone's costs MUST increase, including those obtaining health care through their employer. If it doesn't happen in this open enrollment, it will be in the next one. There is no way around this.

As an economist, he should be able to describe this, yet he doesn't. He is known as "Mr. Mandate", so it would be bad for his career path if he didn't support Zerocare. And it seems he has published a comic book extolling the virtues of government-run healthcare.

He is ten times more biased than the Koch Brothers, so his numbers simply don't matter. He's all in on this, regardless of the data.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908442 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 6:56 PM
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Would THIS be the same Mr. Gruber?

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2012/profile-gruber-economics-......

Gruber served as a student representative on a committee helping to reshape MIT’s undergraduate curriculum, and got an internship at the Brookings Institution in Washington, where he was “bitten by the liberal policy-advocacy bug.”

Well, I believe so! He's a devout liberal, and that means he's, in all likelihood, a pathological liar. Most liberals are, because they have to be. Their ideas suck. They say bald-faced lies like, "If you like your health care plan, you can keep it", even when they know you can't.


Are you the same Mr. Woodward who wrote a post about cognitive dissonance and people refusing to accept facts that conflict with their ideological beliefs?

Thanks for providing an example of that, not to mention a textbook example of ad hominem argument.

If you have a problem with Mr. Gruber's data and reasoning, perhaps you should address them directly with data and reasoning of your own.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908444 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/1/2013 7:02 PM
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Your ad hominem on Dr. Gruber (and me) doesn't really make for anything more than a fallacious argument.
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No, fallacious is relying on numbers supplied by a former bureaucrat who has a built-in bias toward the outcome he advocates.


No, fallacious is attacking Dr. Gruber's integrity instead of providing any evidence that his data and analysis are wrong.

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Author: THEMATHISNEAR Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908661 of 1947664
Subject: Re: The ACA, a chart Date: 11/3/2013 10:14 AM
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Felix, I have no burden of proof to refute a blog post with no data, only the suppositions of one who clearly has a stake in the outcome.

His blithe statement that 80% will be unaffected makes absolutely no sense. There will be additional costs, and these will get imposed upon the 80%. He is the typical ivory-tower expert, with all sorts of models that are based on faulty assumptions. If you ignore gravity, friction and thermodynamics, you can have a perpetual motion machine. Similarly, if you ignore the effects of imposing additional costs, you can say things like '80% will be unaffected.'

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