UnThreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (60) | Ignore Thread Prev Thread | Next Thread
Author: SpottedClick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1972036  
Subject: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 4:09 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 25
The Lumpkins live at the definition of the back of beyond, in a hollow at the top of a valley at the end of a long and muddy dirt road. It is strewn with litter. Packs of stray dogs prowl around, barking at strangers. There is no telephone and since their pump broke two weeks ago Candy has collected water from nearby springs. Oblivious to it all, her five-year-old daughter Amy runs barefoot on a wooden porch frozen by a midwinter chill.

It is a vision of deep and abiding poverty. Yet the Lumpkins are not alone in their plight. They are just the negative side of the American equation. America does have vast, wealthy suburbs, huge shopping malls and a busy middle class, but it also has vast numbers of poor, struggling to make it in a low-wage economy with minimal government help.

A shocking 37 million Americans live in poverty. That is 12.7 per cent of the population - the highest percentage in the developed world. They are found from the hills of Kentucky to Detroit's streets, from the Deep South of Louisiana to the heartland of Oklahoma. Each year since 2001 their number has grown.

Under President George W Bush an extra 5.4 million have slipped below the poverty line


http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1712965,00.html
Print the post Back To Top
Author: PaintSpeck Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899579 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 7:28 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 5
Blah, blah, blah. Nice story if you hate Bush, but what is the solution? Tell me what Kerry would have done differently? I am all ears (or in this case eyes). Are people really foolish enough to believe that the democrats and liberals are more willing to turn over their vast wealth and give it all to the poor? Have you seen any of them doing it lately? No, their solution is to keep squeezing the middle class. The wealthy will stay wealthy. Ms Theresa Heinz is worth almost 1 billion dollars or more. What does she need all that money for? From what I read (a while back), you can't touch her wealth because she has it invested in non-taxable investments. So, the only way to get at the wealthy is to 'steal' their money. Now we know that ain't gonna happen anytime soon. So, next target is corporate America - hmmm, maybe that is why so many jobs are leaving the US. Look at how Virginia is trying to solve the poverty problem - force employers to pay for insurance. Yeah, that is gonna help relieve poverty. So, what is left is the middle class. Our population is growing faster than our incomes and high paying jobs. Wake up America. This is not a Bush problem. There are real issues to be dealt with, and we need to stop blaming Bush and the wealthy (which includes dems and liberals and republicans).

Print the post Back To Top
Author: wittgenstein Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899583 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 7:42 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Ms Theresa Heinz is worth almost 1 billion dollars or more. What does she need all that money for?

Yeah, and she got THAT from a Republican. Well, at least she won't have to spend any more on presidential campaigns for Johnnie. Hillary will see to that.

jz

Print the post Back To Top
Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899589 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 8:18 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 9
Good try CF...But as you already know you Europeans would love to live as well as America's poor. Those who do need help get it from government agencies, churches and many organizations willing to help those in need. Americans are generous people.

btw....per your article...

"The Lumpkins live at the definition of the back of beyond, in a hollow at the top of a valley at the end of a long and muddy dirt road. It is strewn with litter. Packs of stray dogs prowl around, barking at strangers."

My mother always told me you can be poor, but you can help yourself for better living conditions. There is no reason these people can't get out and pick up the litter, do something to round up the stray dogs and so on as this family is discribed. Pride and help begins with one self.

<snip>
The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:

Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.
Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.
As a group, America's poor are far from being chronically undernourished. The average consumption of protein, vitamins, and minerals is virtually the same for poor and middle-class children and, in most cases, is well above recommended norms. Poor children actually consume more meat than do higher-income children and have average protein intakes 100 percent above recommended levels. Most poor children today are, in fact, supernourished and grow up to be, on average, one inch taller and 10 pounds heavier that the GIs who stormed the beaches of Normandy in World War II

<http://new.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm>







Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: SpottedClick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899590 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 8:20 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Blah, blah, blah. Nice story if you hate Bush, but what is the solution? Tell me what Kerry would have done differently? I am all ears






http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0007QS1Z8.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg



CF






Print the post Back To Top
Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899591 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 8:22 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I am all ears
CF
____________________________________

So is Prince Charles. Are you two related? ;)

Print the post Back To Top
Author: SpottedClick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899593 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 8:30 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 6
But as you already know you Europeans would love to live as well as America's poor


Do you think so, LurkerMom?


The Lumpkins live at the definition of the back of beyond, in a hollow at the top of a valley at the end of a long and muddy dirt road. It is strewn with litter. Packs of stray dogs prowl around, barking at strangers. There is no telephone and since their pump broke two weeks ago Candy has collected water from nearby springs. Oblivious to it all, her five-year-old daughter Amy runs barefoot on a wooden porch frozen by a midwinter chill.


No-one in Britain would be allowed to be as destitute as this.

The "American Dream" is a con, a cruel illusion propagated by the Rich. The Rich would rather have a Darwinian America than an America that taxes people according to their ability to pay - the only equitable system - and uses the proceeds to ease the lot of the desperately poor.

Taxes should not be cut - those on the Rich should be increased.

CF






Print the post Back To Top
Author: PaintSpeck Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899598 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 8:57 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 7
No-one in Britain would be allowed to be as destitute as this.

<snipped>
One and a half million poor in Britain going without gas and electricity
By Chris Marsden
28 August 1999

Cold homes are blamed for more than 30,000 deaths each winter, according to official statistics. The elderly account for 20,000 of these deaths. The causes include increased susceptibility to influenza and other viruses, as well as hypothermia.

Another group placed in danger are the children of single parents. The environmentalist organisation Friends of the Earth says the government is "fiddling the figures" and downplaying the extent of the fuel poverty problem. It estimates that some 50,000 people die every year in the UK because they cannot afford to pay their heating bills, the worst figure in Europe.

One in five British household —7 million people—live in fuel poverty, defined as paying 10 percent or more of their income on energy to keep warm.

--------------

Yes, it appears that the poor in Britain are much better off.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: mugsy66 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899601 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 9:03 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Ms Theresa Heinz is worth almost 1 billion dollars or more. What does she need all that money for?
------
Could you explain why republicans have such an issue with Theresa Heinz? Sure, she's mega rich. So what? Isn't that the republican dream? So. she has it invested in non-taxable investments? What--munis and Treasury instruments et. al.? Again, what's your beef with her? That she's not a republican?

Print the post Back To Top
Author: mugsy66 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899602 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 9:06 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
as you already know you Europeans would love to live as well as America's poor.
-------
What??? LurkerMoM, it's not 1946, and Europe has recovered from WW2. Have you ever been to Europe? Where do you get this from?

Print the post Back To Top
Author: PaintSpeck Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899604 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 9:36 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 4
Taxes should not be cut - those on the Rich should be increased.

Define Rich. How much money do I need to have saved (or make) before I am considered rich? Am I rich if I buy everything I want (new cars, vacations, boats, big houses) but don't save any money and need a handout when I retire? Or, am I rich if I live a frugal life, and manage to sock away a few 100K so that when it is time for me to retire I will get no social security payouts because I have money in the bank.

I am not against paying taxes, but I am against handing more money over to a bunch of morons in Washington. How much of our tax money is actually going to help the poor. Why don't we get this issue solved to our satisfaction before we start asking for more tax increases? We need to demand accountability from the folks with their hands in the cookie jar.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899607 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 9:53 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 11
No-one in Britain would be allowed to be as destitute as this..

Spare us CF. I will not dispute the family is poor, but their conditions could be greatly improved if they started to help themselves. Pick up the trash and litter that surrounds their home and so on. If they are living like this that can do something to help themselves. Clean up and look into where they can get help. Help is there if they want it.

I'm sure if I searched the web I can also come up with a pathetic story of a family in Gr Britain who also refuses to start at home to improve their lot.

When almost 1 in 4...almost 25% of the people in Gr. Britain live in poverty, I'd say you had better dig in your own pockets and help your own people to rise above the poverty line.

CF, What are you doing to help your fellow Brit?

<snip>
How many people in the UK live in poverty?
Just under 1 in 4 people in the UK – or nearly 13 million people – live in poverty, according to the latest figures. This includes nearly 1 in 3 children (almost 4 million).1

How were these figures calculated?
Poverty is measured here as below 60 per cent of contemporary median net disposable income in 2000/01. This is the 'poverty line' which has been accepted recently across the European Union to measure the extent of poverty in member states; it is not the same as a comprehensive definition of poverty, which includes many other dimensions. These figures look at incomes in Great Britain, after housing costs have been paid, and include the self-employed.

These figures don't mean very much by themselves -- they only refer to low incomes relative to the rest of the population in the UK. They don't tell us much about the many different aspects of poverty and the way people experience it.

And they are a snapshot: they don't tell us how long people live in poverty.

What kinds of poverty are people living in?
One recent survey showed that about 6.5 million adults go without essential clothing, such as a warm waterproof coat, because of lack of money.

Over 10.5 million people live in financial insecurity: they can't afford to save, insure their house contents, or spend even small amounts on themselves. About 9.5 million can't afford adequate housing – heated, free from damp, and in a decent state of decoration. The crucial factor about these findings is that they are based on a survey of what the general population sees as necessities.2

We also know what a dark shadow poverty casts, particularly over children's lives and their futures. Eighteen per cent of children go without two or more items that the majority of the population says are necessities, such as adequate clothing, toys, or three meals a day.3

One in five non-working families on low or moderate incomes reported being unable to afford some basic food items on most days in 2000.4

Children from poor homes are more likely to die as a baby or a child, and have lower life expectancy overall. They also have a greater likelihood of bad health, a greater risk of unemployment, and a lower chance of high educational achievement.5

How long do people live in poverty for?
Poverty is likely to last longer for young children in particular.6 Overall, a recent survey found that about half of all individuals in the bottom fifth of income spent 6 or more years there out of ten.

Whilst people do move out of poverty, many do not move very far, and many more experience poverty sometimes.7
<snip>

<http://www.oxfamgb.org/ukpp/poverty/thefacts.htm>

and I can google more info for you CF. Poverty runs amuck in Great Britain...

The "American Dream" is a con, a cruel illusion propagated by the Rich. The Rich would rather have a Darwinian America than an America that taxes people according to their ability to pay - the only equitable system - and uses the proceeds to ease the lot of the desperately poor.

lol...CF, you listen too much the propaganda of the Left. Come to America and I'll show you the American Dream is a reality. Yes, we have our poor, but there is help for them if they want it. Step outside Disney World and see for yourself how much better Americans live than the Brits in Gr. Britain.

Taxes should not be cut - those on the Rich should be increased.

CF


I daresay you Brits pay more in taxes than the average American. And still, you have almost 25% living below the poverty line. Besides, you Brits have to support your royalty. Just think how much the poor of Gr Britain could be helped instead of all that is fritted away on them.







Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899610 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 10:13 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Ms Theresa Heinz is worth almost 1 billion dollars or more. What does she need all that money for?
------
Could you explain why republicans have such an issue with Theresa Heinz? Sure, she's mega rich. So what? Isn't that the republican dream? So. she has it invested in non-taxable investments? What--munis and Treasury instruments et. al.? Again, what's your beef with her? That she's not a republican?

_____________________________________________

How much money Teresa or any other rich American has is nomb. As long as it is honest money and they pay their taxes, I have no problem. Anyone can invest in non-taxable investments. It is an honest investment and anyone smart enough to do so, more power to them.

I might not like Teresa's politics, but that's beside the point.

LM, not a Republican.




Print the post Back To Top
Author: MrCheeryO Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899619 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 10:40 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
...How much of our tax money is actually going to help the poor. Why don't we get this issue solved to our satisfaction before we start asking for more tax increases?...

At the federal level you can get a pretty good idea. Traditional support and "welfare", plus some other things, was about 47 billion dollars in 2005. A big part of that was the additional number of people on foodstamps since 2000--about 7 million more people and about 15 billion more dollars a year.

So 47 billion out of a 2.5 trillion dollar budget is about 1.9% of the total federal budget. I agree we should insist on value for dollar on everything. ACF. Iraq at 100 billion a year. DoD 525 billion a year. Medicare drugs--about 60 billion this year. Interest on debt--120 billion. 160 billion dollar agribusiness bill. 9 billion just missing in Iraq.

You cannot claim to be in favor of smaller, responsible, accountable government and support the Bush administration and the Republican Congress. Tom DeLay says they have cut to the bone. Bush said Friday he can do nothing about earmarks and spending reform. The only reason there are not riots in the streets is because they are borrowing 500 billion a year and have cut taxes. 47 billion a year, 1.9%, for most--not all-- federal programs directly targeted at the poor. TANF is about 35 billion.

Administration for Children and Families -- ACF is responsible for some 60 programs that promote the economic and social well-being of children, families and communities. Administers the state-federal welfare program, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, providing assistance to an estimated 5 million persons, including 4 million children. Administers the national child support enforcement system, collecting some $21.2 billion in FY 2003 in payments from non-custodial parents. Administers the Head Start program, serving more than 900,000 pre-school children. Provides funds to assist low-income families in paying for child care, and supports state programs to support foster care and provide adoption assistance. Funds programs to prevent child abuse and domestic violence. Established: 1991, bringing together several already-existing programs. Headquarters: Washington, D.C. Web site: http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/

Employees -- 1,382
Assistant Secretary for Children and Families -- Wade F. Horn, Ph.D.
FY 2005 Budget -- $47 billion

http://www.hhs.gov/about/whatwedo.html/


Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: PaintSpeck Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899623 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 10:46 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
The beef with Ms Teresa is not that she is rich, and I don't care if she is democrat, republican or green. My beef is that her husband ran on a platform of raising taxes knowing darn well that the tax increases would be barely felt by the wealthiest Americans. Congress finds it hard to pass laws to steal what wealth has already been accumulated, but some in congress do seem justified on passing new laws to steal money away from the rest of us (middle class) that will jeapordize our ability to become wealthy. I am only suggesting that she donate her fair share first.



Print the post Back To Top
Author: mcemerson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899645 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 11:52 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I am not against paying taxes, but I am against handing more money over to a bunch of morons in Washington. How much of our tax money is actually going to help the poor. Why don't we get this issue solved to our satisfaction before we start asking for more tax increases? We need to demand accountability from the folks with their hands in the cookie jar.

I like you... where did you come from?

Print the post Back To Top
Author: SpottedClick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899646 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 11:59 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
One and a half million poor in Britain going without gas and electricity
By Chris Marsden
28 August 1999




Got anything more recent than this, Paintspeck?
You're talking about the results of a very long period of Conservative administration in Britain, which in its latter years was absolutely bent on pursuring a Tory agenda (i.e. screw the ordinary people).
Blair came into power in 1997 and has since transformed priorities in Britain, pumping vast amounts of public money into the Health Service, education and ways of helping the ordinary family.



CF


Print the post Back To Top
Author: SpottedClick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899648 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 12:01 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
as you already know you Europeans would love to live as well as America's poor.
-------
What??? LurkerMoM, it's not 1946, and Europe has recovered from WW2. Have you ever been to Europe? Where do you get this from?



The Muffled Region.



(;-) CF



Print the post Back To Top
Author: SpottedClick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899649 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 12:05 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
In the old days the barons would conspire with the king to find ways of screwing the ordinary people.
Later on, in Britain, the rich conspired with the Tory Party to screw the ordinary people.
In America the rich conspire with the Republican Party and its President to screw the ordinary people.



CF

Print the post Back To Top
Author: PaintSpeck Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899656 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 12:14 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Ok CF, there has been improvement.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4656517.stm

In 1991 there were 7.3 million households that were either fuel poor or were considered vulnerable to suffering fuel poverty. By 2002 this figure had fallen to just over two million ...

Print the post Back To Top
Author: SpottedClick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899657 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 12:14 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
A lot of statistics dating from the years of Tory rule (or the years shortly after). These b*****ds are the equivalent of the Republican Party, taking caring of the rich.

The Labour Party has been putting a lot of money into helping poorer families in a wide variety of ways.

The direction of a country is a bit like a battleship in the water. It takes time to move it.

Labour is the party of the ordinary people, and what is always total madness is working folk actually voting for the Tories.






CF

Print the post Back To Top
Author: mugsy66 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899658 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 12:16 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I am only suggesting that she donate her fair share first.
--------
No one is required to "donate" to the IRS. Her "fair share" is determined by the IRS and the laws Congress passes relative to tax collection. You may envy Ms. Heinz her money but that's a different issue. Do you also favor Gates or Buffet "donating" to the IRS?





Print the post Back To Top
Author: PaintSpeck Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899663 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 12:21 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
mcemerson,

I grew up not too far from where you're living. I'm originally from Pittsburgh Steeler country. My folks still live up there.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: SpottedClick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899665 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 12:23 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Ok CF, there has been improvement.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4656517.stm

In 1991 there were 7.3 million households that were either fuel poor or were considered vulnerable to suffering fuel poverty. By 2002 this figure had fallen to just over two million ...



Add in three more years of measures by a party that cares for the ordinary family....


CF


Print the post Back To Top
Author: mcemerson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899669 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 12:27 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I grew up not too far from where you're living. I'm originally from Pittsburgh Steeler country. My folks still live up there.

Texas must have took some gettin' used to. ;~)

Print the post Back To Top
Author: PaintSpeck Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899673 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 12:37 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I don't think anyone gets use to Texas. I miss PA, but there were no jobs up there when I graduated. Rumor has it that the PA corporate tax environment may have kept businesses away ...

Print the post Back To Top
Author: mcemerson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899681 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 12:53 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I don't think anyone gets use to Texas. I miss PA, but there were no jobs up there when I graduated.

There still aren't any.

Rumor has it that the PA corporate tax environment may have kept businesses away ...

Lol... that's the rumor all right... and unions of course. :~)

Print the post Back To Top
Author: PaintSpeck Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899685 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 1:04 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Lol... that's the rumor all right... and unions of course. :~)

Oh yeah, unions. That is a very bad word down here in Texas.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899687 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 1:15 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
A lot of statistics dating from the years of Tory rule (or the years shortly after). These b*****ds are the equivalent of the Republican Party, taking caring of the rich.

lol! throw in 'blame it on Bush' while your at it.

Add in three more years of measures by a party that cares for the ordinary family....


Oh sure....who are you kidding CF. The poverty rate in Britain has not changed much. Besides Tony Blair is too busy fighting his other WOT to worry much about the almost 25% Brit population poverty....the youth of Britain, who have turned into thugs and it is not safe for citizens to walk the streets of many British cities.


Print the post Back To Top
Author: SpottedClick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899691 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 1:33 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 4
lol! throw in 'blame it on Bush' while your at it.


That's for you to do.
I blame the Tory Party for doing very little to help the ordinary British family, and for actually trying to erode things the British hold dear, like the National Health Service.
That's why they were kicked out in 1997 and failed to get back in the two following General Elections.
The Tory Party only work for the rich, just like your Republicans.

who are you kidding CF. The poverty rate in Britain has not changed much.


have you got a link to more up to date figures, Lurker Mom, or are you just talking from the Muffled Region.
Paintspeck has already conceded that things are getting rapidly better for the poor under Labour.


CF

Print the post Back To Top
Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899767 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 4:08 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 4
That's why they were kicked out in 1997 and failed to get back in the two following General Elections.
The Tory Party only work for the rich, just like your Republicans.

have you got a link to more up to date figures, Lurker Mom, or are you just talking from the Muffled Region.
Paintspeck has already conceded that things are getting rapidly better for the poor under Labour.


CF
_________________________________

According to your article 12.7% of a population of almost 300 million people live below the poverty level in America.

According to my article almost 25% of Brits live below the poverty level of a population of Population (2005 est.): 60,441,457

Tony Blair and the Labour Party has been in power for the past nine years....Since then...

Last Updated: Tuesday, 20 September 2005, 15:13 GMT 16:13 UK

"I'm professional, single and poor
The number of single people living in poverty has risen by 300,000 since 1996. BBC News talks to one single person struggling to make ends meet."

"Young Britons are at a far greater risk of living in retirement poverty than their parents."

"One in five in poverty
Despite high levels of employment and government policies to combat poverty, the percentage of people living on very low incomes – defined as below 60% of the UK average wage - has stayed close to 20% throughout the past decade."

"Britain has the highest number of avoidable deaths due to winter cold in Western Europe"
But the latest figures suggest there are currently over two million households across the UK that cannot afford to keep adequately warm at a reasonable cost."

Poverty rates

Britain created one of the earliest and most comprehensive welfare states when Labour adopted the Beveridge report in 1945.
But is was never well-funded enough to eliminate poverty.

Single person poverty

The Elizabeth Finn Trust has estimated that there are 3.9 million single people in the UK living below the poverty line. Many of these people are divorced women, the charity added.

Poverty among single people is not as high profile as that suffered by families and pensioners.

Tackling disadvantage among families with young children and pensioners has been a key objective of the UK government, but policymakers have paid little attention to the plight of single people in poverty.

"There seems to me to be a lot of hidden poverty out there amongst divorced or separated women."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4245984.stm

Viewpoints: The welfare state
To mark 60 years of the 1945 welfare settlement, the BBC News website invited an array of politicians and social and business experts to debate the future of the welfare state.
Here are their views.

"The welfare state of the 21st century will be... an enabler - a ladder out of poverty"
David Blunkett, Work and Pensions Secretary

"Extending choice will inevitably be vital for the future development of the welfare state"
Sir Malcolm Rifkind, shadow work and pensions secretary

"To accept its help and support means submitting to intrusive means-tests..."
David Laws, Lib Dem work and pensions spokesman "Lasting change is often secured when the ship is steered in a new direction, not abandoned..."
Nick Pearce, director, Institute for Public Policy Research

"A growing minority of claimants have an attitude of take, take, take rather than give, give, give"
Frank Field, former welfare reform minister

"The way forward for education and health is to get the state out of the provision of these services"
Ruth Lea, director, Centre for Policy Studies

You will find all these quotes and recent information of Britains living in poverty at this link...

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/business/2005/breadline_britain/default.stm>





Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: SpottedClick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899773 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 4:23 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Here's a question for you, Lurker Mom.

How come you've managed to get me discussing Britain, when the thread is about abject poverty in, supposedly, one of the richest countries in the world, with a startling increase in the number of poor during the Bush presidency?

Congratulations on a fine piece of misdirection.



CF

Print the post Back To Top
Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899788 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 4:50 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 11
Here's a question for you, Lurker Mom.

How come you've managed to get me discussing Britain, when the thread is about abject poverty in, supposedly, one of the richest countries in the world, with a startling increase in the number of poor during the Bush presidency?

Congratulations on a fine piece of misdirection.

CF

_________________________________________

Because you are so quick to show your hate for America and point out their problems when in fact things are no better and even worse in many respects right there in your own back yard and I am merely pointing them out to you.

You asked me questions, I did my best to answer them and now that I have given you the recent data you asked for and cannot defend, you change the subject to my "fine piece of misdirection." Þ




Print the post Back To Top
Author: SpottedClick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899790 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 4:59 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Because you are so quick to show your hate for America and point out their problems when in fact things are no better and even worse in many respects right there in your own back yard and I am merely pointing them out to you.


Let's concede there is poverty in Britain, getting rapidly better under the Labour Government, what's your feeling, Lurker Mom, about the appalling rate of poverty in your country, supposedly one of the richest nations on the planet?

And what's your feeling about the startling increase in poverty during the administration of that fine man in the black cashmere coat, that won your heart so many years ago?


CF


Print the post Back To Top
Author: philz61 Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899796 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 5:06 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
>>Blah, blah, blah. Nice story if you hate Bush, but what is the solution? Tell me what Kerry would have done differently? I am all ears

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0007QS1Z8.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg<<

CF,

Trying to insult Lurkermom with a picture of Dumbo because you can't come up with an answer to her question, that's the best you could do?

philz


Print the post Back To Top
Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899797 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 5:10 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Let's concede there is poverty in Britain, getting rapidly better under the Labour Government, what's your feeling, Lurker Mom, about the appalling rate of poverty in your country, supposedly one of the richest nations on the planet?

And what's your feeling about the startling increase in poverty during the administration of that fine man in the black cashmere coat, that won your heart so many years ago?

CF
__________________________________

No, let's not concede when I have shown you poverty is not getting better in Britain. In fact worse showing you the numbers I provided for you.

Tell me about the fine man in the red tie how in nine years of power not much has changed and things getting worse with the youth thugs that roam the British country side.

The 'Mother Country' needs to do a better job on their almost 25% rate of poverty and youthful thugs.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: philz61 Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899799 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 5:13 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
>>No-one in Britain would be allowed to be as destitute as this.<<

You live in Britain, seem to be doing alright, why do you care about the American poor? Have you ever been to the back and beyond, Appalachia?

philz

Print the post Back To Top
Author: SpottedClick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899800 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 5:13 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Trying to insult Lurkermom with a picture of Dumbo because you can't come up with an answer to her question, that's the best you could do?

philz



It wasn't Lurker Mom I was "insulting", Phil. You are in error.
And it was a joke.

And to be honest, I haven't a clue what Kerry's proposals were for tackling abject American poverty.
Perhaps he had none.
Perhaps there is no political party in America that works on behalf of the ordinary family.
Perhaps all American parties believe in economic Darwinism.



CF


Print the post Back To Top
Author: SpottedClick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899801 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 5:16 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
You live in Britain, seem to be doing alright, why do you care about the American poor? Have you ever been to the back and beyond, Appalachia?

philz



What's the point you're making, Phil?
Am I only to be permitted to post news stories and views about Britain?
Why shouldn't I post about America or China or Israel or North Korea....?


CF


Print the post Back To Top
Author: khalou Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899802 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 5:24 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
Tell me what Kerry would have done differently?

A company makes five million a year.

The CEO takes home one million a year.

It costs the company three million a year to operate.

There are financial changes in the economy that make the operation of the business more difficult with the same profit margin. The law says that the CEO has a legal obligation to make money for the investors.

What to do?

Cut the health insurance to lower workers, farm out whatever can be farmed out to foreign countries, lower safety and emissions standers, give political donations to parties that will ease laws that will do so, cut contributions to employee retirement vehicles---

ANYTHING but interfere with the CEO's income, which is now one million five.

Result- more poverty.

OR--

Attack drug companies and their choke hold on legislation. Take a realistic look at nationalized health care. Flip-flop when appropriate- as the very act of learning creates flip-flops with more frequency than non-learning (if you don't flip-flop, then you are probably an ignorant SOB). Listen to the experts. Weigh what they say against the economy and the long term future. Know that a society can be well judged by how it treats the least of its constituency. Take charge by being an example of being part of a global team.

k







Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: SpottedClick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899803 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 5:28 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
No, let's not concede when I have shown you poverty is not getting better in Britain. In fact worse showing you the numbers I provided for you.


Then you are in error, Lurker Mom.
Here's an academic study which looked at poverty changes in Britain during the Blair years.
It takes 1997 as the starting point and then compares this with 2004/5.
Bearing in mind that it takes time for government changes to be introduced, and for them to work, the study shows the following:

Overall poverty: a fall of 4%
Child poverty: a fall of 9%
Poverty in 2 parent families with children: a fall of 7%
Poverty in 1 parent families with children: a fall of 18%
Poverty in pension-age people: a fall of 2%

http://www.iser.essex.ac.uk/msu/publications/pdf/murn44.pdf


So let's go back to what I said:
Conceded that there's poverty in Britain, and that the Blair government is reducing this, how do you feel about the abject poverty in America, supposedly one of the richest nations on the planet.
And how do you feel about the startling increase in poverty during the administration of President George W.Bush?


CF


Print the post Back To Top
Author: MrCheeryO Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899809 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 5:49 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
....And how do you feel about the startling increase in poverty during the administration of President George W.Bush?...

I do find it a bit startling. Food stamp folks.

1994---27,474,000

2000---17,194,000

2005---25,682,000

2006---26.9 million people.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/pd/fssummar.htm

Seems like conservative "welfare reform", signed by Clinton, works alot better toward the end of 22 million new payrolls. Conseratives and Clinton agreed a job is the best anti-poverty program. Difference is 22 million payrolls 1993-2000 and 2 million payrolls 2001-present (including a million government payrolls.)

The Jobs and Growth tax cuts and 700 billion a year more spending and 1% Fed funds just are not cutting it. On the other hand, Clinton did in fact have relations with that woman, after she flashed him. So pretty much a draw.




Print the post Back To Top
Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899815 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 6:16 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
Labour is the party of the ordinary people, and what is always total madness is working folk actually voting for the Tories.
CF

-----

Sounds like ol' Bubba Sixpack over here. Votes for Bush knowing it's against his own best interests.

Can't have them damn pinko commie libruls runnin' the country. Even though my job at the factory got outsourced to China. Even though jobs are flowing south because of CAFTA & NAFTA. I'm a God-fearin' American, and I'll vote Republican 'cause when I'm making my millions I don't wanna hafta pay taxes on it. Besides, God told George Bush to run, and... and.. hell, he's a good ol' boy, just like me, right?

The Republican spin machine is very efficient, and it chews good intentioned folk up and spits 'em out like an old tobacco wad.
Use 'em and toss 'em.





Rich


Print the post Back To Top
Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899820 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 6:37 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
What does it mean to be poor in America?

Read and learn:
http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=20912507

Print the post Back To Top
Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899829 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 7:00 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
http://www.iser.essex.ac.uk/msu/publications/pdf/murn44.pdf

I am not able to access your link to see where the data came from.

So let's go back to what I said:
Conceded that there's poverty in Britain, and that the Blair government is reducing this, how do you feel about the abject poverty in America, supposedly one of the richest nations on the planet.
And how do you feel about the startling increase in poverty during the administration of President George W.Bush?
CF


The author you quoted said there is a 12.7% below the poverty rate of Americans.

Following is three year old data saying 12.5 percent of Americans living below the poverty rate in America

"Two parents, bringing up two kids, are judged to be poor if they live on less than $18,660 a year (for an unencumbered individual under the age of 65, the threshold is $9,573). On Thursday August 26th, the Census Bureau revealed that 35.9m Americans, or 12.5% of the population, fell below this poverty line in 2003, 1.3m more than the year before."
<http://www.unitednorthamerica.org/phpBB2/about1676.html>

A .2% difference of almost 300 million Americans hardly equal the 5.4 million more falling below the poverty line as the author claims to have happen under Bush. He is pulling numbers out of a hat.

Unemployment is now at a low after the tail spin our economy suffered after 9/11 plus the fact of a inherited recession from Clinton. Makes me wonder the recovery rate had Britain suffered the same fate….. I don't believe Britain would have done as well. You take none of this into consideration. Our economy is strong, our unemployment rate is low.

And still, the link I gave you said Blair is not doing better for the nine years he has been in power. "An Overall poverty fall of 4%" as you claim for Britian....doesn't compare to the free fall Bush has pulled us out of since 9/11.


Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: Michaelpfool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899875 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/19/2006 9:53 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
To be fair to Bush, Greenspan has been hiding a rampant inflation. Have you purchased a Mountain Dew lately?

Or a pack of cigs?

Yikes!

Print the post Back To Top
Author: philz61 Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899914 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/20/2006 1:25 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Now let me tell a story about a man named Jed,
Poor mountaineer, barely kept his family fed,
Then one day as he's shootin at some food,
Up through the ground come a bubblin' crude.

Oil, that is. Black glod, Texaz tea.

Well the next thing ya know ol' Jed's a millionaire,
Kin folk said "Hey Jed you should move away from here,
So he loaded up the truck with all his family,
And now they're headed to the land of Beverly,

Hills that is, swimmin pools, movie stars.


Now that's the American dream, or winning the 346 million Power Ball drawing last night.

philz


Print the post Back To Top
Author: philz61 Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899916 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/20/2006 1:51 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
IMHO, you're as poor as you wanna be. Or, you're as rich as you wanna be.

You're as happy as you wanna be. Or, you're as sad and downtrodden as you wanna be.

Ya, there are things and circumstances beyond your control that hold you back, at times. But there are also opportunities that come your way just as often.

I'd bet each one of us has said we'd wished we'd done this or that or hadn't done this or that. Can chalk those decisions up to life experience, move on and try to do better in the future.

Until the last 15 years, I've been at or below the poverty rate. And looking back, ya, sometimes I wish I'd known then what I know now, some decisions might have been different. But that's not what happened. Life, as they say happened as we made our plans. I look at what I have now and think back that I wouldn't have what I have now had I been able to change something years ago. I think, deep down, most Americans are in this boat.

I wouldn't make a very good super rich person. Wouldn't know how to act. Don't have a hankering to shine up to coke sniffing a**holes. Don't need my name in tabloids. Definately don't need my picture taken. Don't wanna live in CA on the beach or in Oregon or Washington with the treehuggers. Would only last as a polictician for a month or so before I'd had told all those blowhards where to stuff it.

Ya, I'd say I'm pretty much happy sitting here and bloviating with my rich and poor fellow Americans on subjects near and dear to our hearts.

Isn't life grand.

philz

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: philz61 Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899917 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/20/2006 1:58 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
You live in Britain, seem to be doing alright, why do you care about the American poor? Have you ever been to the back and beyond, Appalachia?

philz


What's the point you're making, Phil?
Am I only to be permitted to post news stories and views about Britain?
Why shouldn't I post about America or China or Israel or North Korea....?


My point - have you personally seen the poverty of the Appalachian region? Do you care more about the American poor than the British poor or do you care evenly about all the world's poor? We Americans know we have a poor problem.

philz

Print the post Back To Top
Author: SpottedClick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899923 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/20/2006 2:27 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
We Americans know we have a poor problem

And under George W.Bush and his Republicans another 5.4 million have slipped below the poverty line.




CF





Print the post Back To Top
Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899956 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/20/2006 8:01 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
IMHO, you're as poor as you wanna be. Or, you're as rich as you wanna be.

You're as happy as you wanna be. Or, you're as sad and downtrodden as you wanna be.

Ya, I'd say I'm pretty much happy sitting here and bloviating with my rich and poor fellow Americans on subjects near and dear to our hearts.

Isn't life grand.

philz

_____________________________________

Good post philz.... I grew up living in the tenement buildings of NY City on the edge of Harlem. Along with our neighbors we were a poor lot.
My folks made sure home and family came first and my mom...well, cleanliness was next to godliness or however that saying goes. I was taught not to feel sorry for myself and get out and improve your lot in life. What I have now I owe in part the values my folks taught me.

You are right...life is grand.





Print the post Back To Top
Author: TVKFool Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 899961 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/20/2006 8:20 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 5
The "American Dream" is a con, a cruel illusion propagated by the Rich.

The "American Dream" is slightly different than you think. The american dream was as defined to me a dream that you can become a millionaire just by hard work after landing on the shores of NY with nothing but 5 dollars in your pocket. It's the rags to riches stories of immigrants that gave birth to the american dream.

From personal perspective that still holds true. My parents came to US with 3 suitcases for 4 people (1 of suitcases was linnens my mother didn't have the heart to leave behind) 11 years ago. At first only my mother got a job because my dad's english was horrible. Because of the job's location we lived in an insanely expensive neighborhood, and our income was probably well below the poverty line. We had no car and had to take the horrible transportation system of the surburbs to get our groceries. Fast forward 11 years. My parents now sitting in the higher tax brackets (although not millionaires) they have their own home, and they put their 2 daughters through college.
That my friends is the american dream. That you can make anything you want out of yourself if you have the guts/brains/determination, or just one of the 3.

As for your articles on the poor destitute americans, a few issues there
- Who draws the arbitrary line of poverty in the sand? Because it's moved a lot in the last 50 years. Having a house, a car, and cable, is not poverty no matter what anyone says.
- For those that really can't afford their basic expenses. Why aren't they out there trying to get trained for better tasks? Doctor's office assistants, accountants, and even administrative assistants, are all jobs that require minimal training, and make a decent wage. There are organizations in every state that help you get a good job, and practice interviews with you and possibly give you an interview outfit.

I think that as a people we have become to complacent, too dependent on the government. Used to be that everyone knew that nobody owes you anything, that you either make it for yourself or starve (or go home to mom and dad). Nowdays people assume that they can do nothing and good old uncle sam will make sure they live the same as their millionaire neighbor.

Now I understand that some people really are incapable of working, of getting ahead in life for whatever reason. However when I hear stories of a healthy guy in his 20s coming to the unemployment office and demanding his money, it makes me wonder, if we wouldn't not be better off as a country if we severely lower the safety net.

-TVK





Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: philz61 Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 900178 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/20/2006 2:33 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
>>We Americans know we have a poor problem

And under George W.Bush and his Republicans another 5.4 million have slipped below the poverty line.<<

And just why do you care so much?

philz


Print the post Back To Top
Author: philz61 Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 900187 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/20/2006 2:52 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
From personal perspective that still holds true. My parents came to US with 3 suitcases for 4 people (1 of suitcases was linnens my mother didn't have the heart to leave behind) 11 years ago. At first only my mother got a job because my dad's english was horrible. Because of the job's location we lived in an insanely expensive neighborhood, and our income was probably well below the poverty line. We had no car and had to take the horrible transportation system of the surburbs to get our groceries. Fast forward 11 years. My parents now sitting in the higher tax brackets (although not millionaires) they have their own home, and they put their 2 daughters through college.
That my friends is the american dream. That you can make anything you want out of yourself if you have the guts/brains/determination, or just one of the 3.


TVK,

Welcome to you, your sister and your parents.

There are millions of Americans with the same story. My grandparents came from Switzerland in 1921, spent six months at Ellis Island before ending up in Indiana to start an Accordian manufacturing business. Things didn't turn out so well, the financiers left granddaddy with the bills, then came the depression and the war, but they all came through it. They ended up with their own music store selling organs, band instruments, and giving lessons to many, many people. My uncle actually recorded the Stars and Stripes Forever onto a 78 record. That song was played by a hundred piece accordian band. My dad didn't know English until he went to school because, "Got damn, English is the language of this country and you will learn it!"

There are millions of American dream stories, very few, I'm afraid to say coming from citizens born in the US. It seems that over the last 40 years the attitude of "you owe me" or "I'm owed this because" has prevailed over getting off your "ASS" and working for what you want in life.

philz

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 900188 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/20/2006 2:53 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
>>We Americans know we have a poor problem
And under George W.Bush and his Republicans another 5.4 million have slipped below the poverty line.<<

And just why do you care so much?
philz

-----

and just why (it seems) do you NOT care at all?


Oh, wait... it must be that Republican 'Compassionate Conservativism' I keep hearing about.

Nebbermind.




Rich

Print the post Back To Top
Author: SpottedClick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 900189 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/20/2006 2:54 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
And just why do you care so much?

philz



You asked me this before, Phil. I answered you.



CF


Print the post Back To Top
Author: MrCheeryO Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 900196 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/20/2006 3:04 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
...and just why (it seems) do you NOT care at all?...

I wouldn't care much if the poverty rate is rising if not for:

1. The fact that Mr. Bush and Congress-weasels will spend 700 billion dollars (27% in real dollars) more this year than five years ago.

2. Over 2 trillion dollars in "Jobs and Growth Tax Cuts".

3. Hadn't benefited from an unprecedented two years of 1% Fed funds, after the end of the lightest recession post-WWII. Credit mania from Easy Al Greenspan. He says folks took 550 billion dollars from their home equity in a year. Waaaaaaaaay up from a few years earlier. Negative savings.

4. So you have everything---including the kitchen sink---thrown in (about 1.5 trillion borrow and spend so far)--and poverty is somehow still rising!!!. JC Keeyrist. Everyone should have a solid gold car and house by now. Or soon.

5. While it fell every year under Clinton.

So, is that a good deal? :) Save the 700 billion! Cut the budget by 25% The poverty rate will decline again.


Print the post Back To Top
Author: Commodore64 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 901186 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/22/2006 1:23 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
"A shocking 37 million Americans live in poverty. That is 12.7 per cent of the population - the highest percentage in the developed world."

In many ways, this is laughable. "Poverty" in the USA just means having less "stuff" than other people (you might only have one television/telephone instead of 4), it does NOT mean that these people don't have access to the basics (food, clothing, shelter).

I grew up "in poverty" according to the US government.

We had a home (nothing fancy, but it was clean and warm- and being poor doesn't mean you must have trash, empty liquor bottles, and burned out cars on your front lawn). We had a car (it was old, but it got us around). We had plenty to eat (because my parents shopped carefully and spent what money they did have on food and clothing, not liquor and cigarettes). We didn't have a lot, but we didn't suffer.

Just because you meet the government definition of poor doesn't mean you have to live like an animal or that you are "suffering."

As a kid, I knew we didn't have as much "stuff" as other kids I went to school with, but I didn't know we were poor until many years later when I learned that the government classified us as "poor."

BTW, most folks who meet the American definition of poverty have plenty to eat, 1 (or more) cars, a home, a televison, a VCR, a microwave, air conditioning and heat, indoor plumbing, and a telephone. Almost half even have computers and cable/satellite television.

It hardly seems right to compare this kind of "poverty" to the grinding poverty that most of the world experiences on a daily basis- where just avoiding starvation is the daily goal. Most folks in the world would give anything to be "poor" in America...

jb

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: Commodore64 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 901193 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/22/2006 1:28 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
"The "American Dream" is a con, a cruel illusion propagated by the Rich. The Rich would rather have a Darwinian America than an America that taxes people according to their ability to pay "

Hey, its me again.

You know, the American who grew up in "poverty."

Well, that was only half the story.

You see, I don't live in "poverty" now. I have a college education (advanced degree) and a good job. I live well below my means and invest the rest. I am now in my early 40's and am a millionaire (okay, not "ultra rich", but not poor either.

There is no "illusion"- socioeconomic mobility is not uncommon in the USA. That doesn't mean that all poor people will move up, but it can be done.

I suspect I'm not the only person on this board who came from humble beginnings and is now in the top quintile in terms of both income and wealth.

jb


Print the post Back To Top
Author: mcemerson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 901203 of 1972036
Subject: Re: THE AMERICAN DREAM (AND THE REALITY) Date: 2/22/2006 1:36 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
It hardly seems right to compare this kind of "poverty" to the grinding poverty that most of the world experiences on a daily basis- where just avoiding starvation is the daily goal.

It's not right, in fact it's downright silly. Poverty needs to be redifined (or un-redefined) to actually mean poor again. You know, someone that's basic needs... that would be food, clothing and shelter and not color tvs, VCRs, cell phone and computers... are not being met on a regular basis. As far as I'm concerned poverty has all but been eliminated in this country There's a certain percentage of any population that will remain in a state of poverty no matter how much effort and money is spent on them unless those that are unable or unwilling to be helped are taken into custody and forced to accept help.

Print the post Back To Top
UnThreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (60) | Ignore Thread Prev Thread | Next Thread
Advertisement