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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 741388  
Subject: The Change is Complete Date: 11/7/2012 3:12 PM
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I wish I could say I was shocked at last night outcome. But when I emotionally detached myself from the results, it was almost inevitable. Why? Because over the past decade or so, America has socially undergone a fundamental change leaning more and more toward socialism. Nothing ever overtly, but gradual.

I jokingly say it all started with the handing out of "participation" trophies. So all the little kids leaving the league banquet could go home with something. So everyone could feel special. I even witnessed this first hand with my oldest nephew 20 years ago at his last day of school program for first grade. Every kid got a certificate for something. Even just being nice. WTF!?!

Couple that with multiple generations being raised in and on entitlement programs. Where a check comes from the government every month for just being you. No need to work harder, no need for improvement, that check will come.

Before you know it, you have 51% of the population wanting a cradle to grave system.

I hold out a little hope for our country, but when people can't even look at Europe nor remember the past 100 years of history, it shrinks to a very little hope.

JLC
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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653668 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/7/2012 5:34 PM
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I agree JLC. DW and I talked the entire commute to work this morning about this fundamental shift that has been occuring. I believe we are now at the tipping point in multiple areas. I think we've seen our last Republican president for quite some time. Probably a couple of decades.

Soon SCOTUS will be a liberal minority. We we start to see serious challenges to both 1st amendment religious rights and 2nd amendment gun rights. Once they start chipping away at those, you will see blood in the streets. It could be devistating.

That will be the tip of the iceburg. We've allready talked about the economic and taxation issues that will challenge us. Stick a fork in America as we know it folks.

If a 'decent' candidate like Romney can't beat a frakking commie with during a bad economy now, then 4 more years of more demographic changes and more entitlemet weenies coming of age will just make things worse.

RE plans???? What difference does it make anymore?

decath

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653669 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/7/2012 5:42 PM
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RE plans???? What difference does it make anymore?

decath


My husband is no longer working, and at some point so will I.

Even though our incomes were close, it is going to reduce our taxes by more than half. Hey, if I stop working, we will be eligible for subsidized health insurance.

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653690 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/7/2012 10:29 PM
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vkg
My husband is no longer working, and at some point so will I.

Even though our incomes were close, it is going to reduce our taxes by more than half. Hey, if I stop working, we will be eligible for subsidized health insurance.


Here is a major concern vkg. As a RE person, I presume you have a decent nest egg. With the way wealth is being demonized in this country, it's not hard to imagine the growing 'entitlement' mentality to grow to the point where someone with 1 mil nest egg (only 40k per year) as a rich sob that needs to be hit with a wealth tax.

Remember Al Gore ranting about the dignitiy of labor over the dignity of wealth...or something like that.

RE people will be a target because of their investments. It will start slow...but it will happen. Taxing the super rich is not enough. 1 million sounds awful good to the average Joe living on 25k of ss or a minority sucking off the system.

decath

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653691 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/7/2012 10:58 PM
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It's even worse in California, where yet another tax was passed.

California Voters Approve Higher Taxes
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732443980457810...

Pertinent comment:

Here's the official summary of Prop 30 from the voter guide:

"Increases taxes on earnings over $250,000 for seven years and sales taxes by ¼ cent for four years, to fund schools. Guarantees public safety realignment funding. Fiscal Impact: Increased state tax revenues through 2018–19, averaging about $6 billion annually over the next few years. Revenues available for funding state budget. In 2012–13, planned spending reductions, primarily to education programs, would not occur."

To show you how grindingly stupid 53.9% of CA voters are, you note it says, "Revenues available for funding state budget." And note where it says "planned spending reductions" ... "would not occur."

Planned in CA means nothing. The language leaves open supposedly "unplanned" spending reductions. We are getting screwed but the worst is that we are continually screwed, over and over and over and over by the Democrats in Sacramento and our Dependent-American voters (the ones who live on the Fed/State dole and have no plans to work and earn a living) continue to allow them to get away with it.

My wife and I have decided to leave CA. We were both born and raised here when CA was truly the Golden State, but over the past 30 years or so the Democrats have taken the state to within ten years of hard stop failure. We're getting out while we can.

I hate to do it as I have 27 year medical practice with 21 employees and thousands of patients, but between PPACA (Obamacare) and CA's own taxes, bureaucracy and exorbitant costs, I have a choice of leaving now and starting over somewhere else or slowly die off as a business over the next five years.

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653747 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 8:43 AM
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Even though our incomes were close, it is going to reduce our taxes by more than half. Hey, if I stop working, we will be eligible for subsidized health insurance.


vkg


Dang it, I looked at some goverment documents describing PPACA. They will be using your MAGI (modified adjusted gross income) to determine what your income is. MAGI includes pension income and tax exempt interest (i.e.) from municipal bonds. Between my future pension (I know I'm being an optimist) and my income on my non-retirement portfolio, my MAGI will exceed 400% FPL. I guess I could look into holding off my pension start until I'm Medicare age (the pension would be larger if I wait) but I'd need to run the numbers.

Mike

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653755 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 9:59 AM
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The only change was the dirty diaper of liberalism/socialism being taken off the dirty public butt of dependent infants, left unclean, and replaced by another diaper of liberalism. In the end, the adults will have to clean up the mess and train the infants to grow up and learn to clean and take care of themselves.

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653760 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 10:03 AM
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How dare you be successful. If it wasn't for the state of CA, you would be poor. And now you want to abandon your duty to pay back what the state for providing the environment for you to succeed? CA should pass a law to confiscate the wealth of those who get rich and then move to some other state because they don't want to pay their fair share. Shame on people like you!

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Author: ResNullius Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653763 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 10:11 AM
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How dare you be successful. If it wasn't for the state of CA, you would be poor. And now you want to abandon your duty to pay back what the state for providing the environment for you to succeed? CA should pass a law to confiscate the wealth of those who get rich and then move to some other state because they don't want to pay their fair share. Shame on people like you!

Shame on people like you. Better yet, why don't you take a long walk down a short pier. The State of CA didn't make people, the people made the State of CA. As for leaving, the State of CA left the people a long, long, long, long time ago. Only a total fool would live there, unless they are so rich that paying a fortune simply to live there means nothing to them, and they by the way are about the only people who are going to be left there, other than the free-loaders. Get a brain, if they have any left out there.

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Author: ziggy29 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653764 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 10:14 AM
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>> How dare you be successful. If it wasn't for the state of CA, you would be poor. And now you want to abandon your duty to pay back what the state for providing the environment for you to succeed? CA should pass a law to confiscate the wealth of those who get rich and then move to some other state because they don't want to pay their fair share. Shame on people like you! <<

To the part I bold-faced, they can't.

They tried once, almost 20 years ago I think, when they started taxing the pensions of people who lived outside of CA but earned their pension at a job there. The courts shot it down.

#29

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653765 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 10:15 AM
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I hate to do it as I have 27 year medical practice...

I'd hate to be in your shoes starting over.

I remember when I finished residency in '95, my brother wanted me to check out job offers around Sacramento where he lives. I said no freaking way. At that time, pay was about 1/2 of what I could make here and cost of living was twice as much.

He argument was look at all things you can do here, hike, sail, ski, etc., etc., etc. He didn't understand about having a daily job, call, weekends, etc., and not being able to take off at the drop of a hat like the pseudo-bum that he is.

California, like to visit but I can't work/live there.

JLC

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653766 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 10:17 AM
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Res:

Josh was being facetious. He's as conservative as the day is long.

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653767 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 10:17 AM
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Here's the official summary of Prop 30 from the voter guide:

Wasn't part of Prop 30 also the taxation of all business income earned by corporations? Not just that portion earned in California? Talk about insane, I don't see how that can pass muster.

JLC

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653769 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 10:19 AM
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Catherine:

Northern MI is nice. Just ask your friend Art.

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Author: ResNullius Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653773 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 10:32 AM
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Res:

Josh was being facetious. He's as conservative as the day is long.


My appologies to Josh. I should have known.

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Author: notehound Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653785 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 11:03 AM
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Before you know it, you have 51% of the population wanting a cradle to grave system.

JLC,

You're basically talking about the following accurate observation and well-known misquote commonly referred to as the "Tytler Cycle:"

A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to selfishness;
From selfishness to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Fraser_Tytler


-Notehound

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653786 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 11:07 AM
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r u sarcasm challenged?

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653791 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 11:18 AM
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"Catherine: Northern MI is nice. Just ask your friend Art." - wolverine


Northern Michigan is gorgeous in the summer. It's like this best kept secret. I was surprised there weren't more tourists up there when we were there. When it was in the 100's and like 98 degrees down in Tennessee when we were up near Charlevoix, Michigan the daily temps were in the 70's and the night time temps were in the low 50's and it even got down to 49 degrees one night.

Sleeping Bear Dunes National Park near Travis City, Michigan was voted the most beautiful place in America. The upper pennisula isn't too shabby either. The waters of Lake Huron as you go over the Mackinac Bridge look like the Caribbean, crystal clear with sort of a torquoise color to them. Very cold and clear.

In Gaylord, Michigan they have a farmer's market and I bought this 11 lb Salmon (caught by Indians in Lake Huron) for $2.29/lb. I cooked the whole thing on my brother's gas grill. It was delicious. It was difficult to turn over because it was so big so if and when I go back up there I think I will fillet the fish to make it easier to cook on the grill. The 2X a week farmer's market in Gaylord was fun by the way.

Art

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653793 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 11:23 AM
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Travis City, Michigan

OCD: Traverse City

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653796 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 11:48 AM
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"Travis City, Michigan - art
--------------
OCD: Traverse City - wolverine



Yeah, my fingertips are bothering me. They are dry and cracked and hurt like hell.

Traverse City, Michigan is a really pretty town on a bay on Lake Michigan in Northern Michigan. It is clean and also beautiful. When we were there it was like 74 degrees. As we drove by the bay there was a beach and there were people out on sailboards skimming across the water and people laying out on the beach and all the trees and grass were green and the sky was bright blue. It was a picture perfect day.

Traverse City is about 45 miles from Alba, MI where my brother keeps bees. My brother has 150 bee locations up in Northern Michigan. He puts 30 to 40 hives of bees at each location. If you ever go up there in the late summer you can go to my brother's honey house in Alba and buy honey from him wholesale. Thistle honey is delicious.

Art

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653799 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 11:54 AM
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I made a toasted cheese sandwich for breakfast. It was delicious. I used two slices of soft white bread, two slices of American cheese, and real butter. I buttered the outside of the bread with lightly salted real butter and toasted the bread in a non-stick skillet with the American cheese in between. I fried it a little bit hotter than medium heat. It came out all golden brown with the American cheese hot and melted in between the two slices of bread. What's not to like?

Art

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Author: NajdorfSicilian Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653803 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 12:06 PM
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Before you know it, you have 51% of the population wanting a cradle to grave system.

I hold out a little hope for our country, but when people can't even look at Europe nor remember the past 100 years of history, it shrinks to a very little hope.

JLC


If you swung a total of ~150k votes in OH, VA, FL, NH we'd be talking about President Romney. No need to panic just yet.

Positives: 1.5% more 18-29yr olds registered as R, 1% fewer signed up as D for this election. Romney got more of the black vote than McCain did. Also more over 40s, more working people, more marrieds.

We have to admit that there are a lot of voters in this country that fell victim to the Cult of Personality surrounding Obama - admit it, he's got a great life story and a family everyone seems to like. Not to mention an approval rating of 123% in the media.

However, the next election the Democrats won't be running The First Black President Ever Who Is Still Cleaning Up Bush's Mess from Four Years Ago.

The Democratic bench is verrrry thin: Biden [lol], HJC, and who exactly? Warren? Reid/Pelosi? Jerry Brown again?

Our side, in no particular order: Christie, Martinez, Rubio, Haley, Ayotte, Ryan, Jindal.

Again, just randomly matching names, I think a Christie/Martinez ticket, OR a Rubio/Haley, OR a Ryan/Ayotte ticket looks pretty damn good from here. Or put the women first in each of those - either way!

Finally, the Dems now OWN this economy. If they can return us to late-90s Clinton growth -- fantastic! But you and I know they cannot. People will be full of Dem-fatigue and a crappy jobs market long before Nov 2016 and dying for real change.

The upcoming tripartite war in the Blue States: Unions v Pensions v Schools promises to be quite entertaining.

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Author: straitarrow Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653829 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 1:05 PM
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"As a RE person, I presume you have a decent nest egg. With the way wealth is being demonized in this country, it's not hard to imagine the growing 'entitlement' mentality to grow to the point where someone with 1 mil nest egg (only 40k per year) as a rich sob that needs to be hit with a wealth tax.....
"RE people will be a target because of their investments. It will start slow...but it will happen. Taxing the super rich is not enough. 1 million sounds awful good to the average Joe living on 25k of ss or a minority sucking off the system."decath




Excellent point...and very worrisome too!

There are many over 70 or 80 who are retired with no debts, 1 mil or a bit over saved some in stocks and some in CD's or M/M, adult children who hope for a future like their parents.
These typical middle class parents live frugally but comfortable .... planning to will their hard won estate and paid off home to their kids. (BTW, Kids will have few of retirement benefits enjoyed by parents)

Now comes "The Change" which could upset their lifetime of work and planning! Possible Tax law changes on Cap Gains, Estate tax (Fed & State), Stock Market plummet, certain inflation already in process, possible nursing home and med costs, and who knows what else is in store.

Is there an answer?
Max gifting of savings where possible?
Sell stock and take a big hit? (compared to cost basis change at death)
Take a chance on the politicians and the future?

Many want to know!

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Author: windhoek Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653835 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 1:30 PM
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......such a sad note. Really, our country is going down the tubes because we give children participation certificates? Good grief.

So we're heading on the road to ruin, like Europe?

Been to northern Europe lately, where many countries have a higher standard of living than the US? You want a model of an export-led manufacturing economy with low unemployment then you need not look further than Germany.

..socialism, europe, welfare-state, whiners.....whose whining now?

The republicans broke this country with a needless trillion dollar war and concurrent tax cuts...apparently, the country has no stomach to put our future back into the hands of that management team. I don't know why anyone would find this surprising.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653844 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 2:06 PM
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windhoek wrote: The republicans broke this country with a needless trillion dollar war and concurrent tax cuts...apparently, the country has no stomach to put our future back into the hands of that management team. I don't know why anyone would find this surprising.

Sincere question: What happened to the $5.5 trillion--more than all previous administrations combined--spent by 0bama his first three years in office?

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653873 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 4:30 PM
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If you swung a total of ~150k votes in OH, VA, FL, NH we'd be talking about President Romney. No need to panic just yet.

Good point, however, Obama still held the popular vote, albeit by only 2 million, fraction of a percent. We are teetering and I'm afraid the momentum is against us.

JLC

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653875 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 4:38 PM
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Been to northern Europe lately, where many countries have a higher standard of living than the US? You want a model of an export-led manufacturing economy with low unemployment then you need not look further than Germany.

So you pick one country out of the EU as a shinning example of socialism? Heard of Spain or Greece? And some of our economic numbers/debt ratios are worse than theirs.

......such a sad note. Really, our country is going down the tubes because we give children participation certificates? Good grief.

Really sad is that you can't see how that leads to everyone wanting, no expecting, something for nothing. Its not as far a stretch as it sounds. Good grief.

JLC

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653880 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 4:46 PM
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If you swung a total of ~150k votes in OH, VA, FL, NH we'd be talking about President Romney. No need to panic just yet.

Good point, however, Obama still held the popular vote, albeit by only 2 million, fraction of a percent. We are teetering and I'm afraid the momentum is against us.

JLC
__________________

I have said this in other places. But does anyone believe that had Obama been allowed to be shown as being dishonest and Romney not falsely displayed as being dishonest on the biggest national stage by a supposedly unbiased member of the media -- would not each of these states likely been impacted by more than enough votes to have changed the election?

There rally should be an uprising against the press.

They have thrown an American election. Period. They did it, they it intentionally.

We are in a bad place, and it is not the election that took us there, that is a manifestation of the thing that took us there.

A bad election can be undone, a press that has become a propaganda wing of a politician is a far far more serious problem.

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Author: AOLFoolman100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653883 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 4:50 PM
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Been to northern Europe lately, where many countries have a higher standard of living than the US? You want a model of an export-led manufacturing economy with low unemployment then you need not look further than Germany.


Per capita GDP is higher in the US than any other major country. The often cited Luxumbourg is higher than the US because it is a tiny country that has high net worth workers who cross the borders each morning to work in the banking industry. There are a few others, but they are very small countries, that tend to have industrial concentrations that favor high GDP.

Norway, a slightly larger country, is also an aberration because their GDP is dominated by their very high revenue from oil production. Other than that, US is far the richest country....from capitalism, despite a very disproportionate percentage (relative to northern Europe) of minorities that tend to contribute much less to the GDP.

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653900 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 5:39 PM
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CC
Sincere question: What happened to the $5.5 trillion--more than all previous administrations combined--spent by 0bama his first three years in office?


Oh those pesky details Catheryn.

decath

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Author: bighairymike Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653949 of 741388
Subject: Re: The Change is Complete Date: 11/8/2012 8:30 PM
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The only change was the dirty diaper of liberalism/socialism being taken off the dirty public butt of dependent infants, left unclean, and replaced by another diaper of liberalism. In the end, the adults will have to clean up the mess and train the infants to grow up and learn to clean and take care of themselves. - JoshRandall

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Heh. Nice Imagery. Have a rec.

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