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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 195758  
Subject: The Circle of Life Date: 9/22/2012 9:43 AM
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https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/564829_280435288...

I am Catholic, I am pro-life.


https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/s480x480/284326_...



"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182807 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/23/2012 1:53 PM
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"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."




Conception does not occur in the womb. Too bad God doesn't seem to know that.

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Author: rev2217 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182808 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/23/2012 2:30 PM
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feedmeNOWhuman,

Conception does not occur in the womb.

Really?

Then where DOES it occur???

Norm.

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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182809 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/23/2012 2:49 PM
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feedmeNOWhuman:
Conception does not occur in the womb.
=======================
Really?
Then where DOES it occur???
Norm.

=======================
In the fallopian tube. Don't they teach this stuff in the seminary? OR middle school?

http://www.thefertilityrealm.com/when-does-conception-occur....

Bill

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182810 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/23/2012 5:04 PM
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Don't they teach this stuff in the seminary? OR middle school?

I suspect all they teach is "it's bad except between married couples (male/female) in the missionary position with the lights off. Then it's not quite as bad.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182811 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/23/2012 5:32 PM
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<<
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
><

Conception does not occur in the womb. Too bad God doesn't seem to know that.
>>

All that we are at birth is not only the result of the joining of the contents of the eqq and the sperm......

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Author: pauls59 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182812 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/23/2012 8:56 PM
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Conception does not occur in the womb. Too bad God doesn't seem to know that.

LOL, too bad you don't seem to know God.

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182813 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/23/2012 9:01 PM
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<?i<> "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."




Conception does not occur in the womb. Too bad God doesn't seem to know that.


"formed" sounds more like fetal development than conception ...

and seems to only apply to those appointed prophet....

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182814 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/23/2012 9:06 PM
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That's one way to look at it, I guess.

I think the phrasing is a product of the knowledge of the time. Back then men "planted seeds" which grew. They didn't know from ova.

Which also indicates the passage was written by men, not divinely inspired. God wouldn't have gotten it wrong.

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182817 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/24/2012 10:27 AM
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I think the phrasing is a product of the knowledge of the time. Back then men "planted seeds" which grew. They didn't know from ova.

Which also indicates the passage was written by men, not divinely inspired. God wouldn't have gotten it wrong.


Ok, but we still talk this way today. We still talk about a beautiful sunrise and a sunset, and we've known forever that the sun doesn't move.
The point of the passage is a comforting one, that God knew us in the beginning. It was never meant to be scientific.
Imagine yourself on the beach, with your wife, and she says "wow, look at the beautiful sunset" and you reply, "Guy, you know the sun doesn't move. Why can't you be scientifically accurate?"
You'd be undermining the purpose of her reaching out to you, and you probably would ruin an amorous moment.

Writing has a purpose and to reach beyond that purpose to spell out stuff way outside the context is to miss the point.
Ray

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182818 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/24/2012 10:36 AM
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Ok, but we still talk this way today. We still talk about a beautiful sunrise and a sunset, and we've known forever that the sun doesn't move.
The point of the passage is a comforting one, that God knew us in the beginning. It was never meant to be scientific.
Imagine yourself on the beach, with your wife, and she says "wow, look at the beautiful sunset" and you reply, "Guy, you know the sun doesn't move. Why can't you be scientifically accurate?"
You'd be undermining the purpose of her reaching out to you, and you probably would ruin an amorous moment.

Writing has a purpose and to reach beyond that purpose to spell out stuff way outside the context is to miss the point.
Ray




I have to agree with Ray - except for the part about "God knew". :)
If we are to be scientifically accurate in everything we say and write, no one is going to listen to or read us. Ever. Unless, of course, they are Abby Sciuto. :D

AM

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182820 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/24/2012 11:55 AM
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Imagine yourself on the beach, with your wife, and she says "wow, look at the beautiful sunset" and you reply, "Guy, you know the sun doesn't move. Why can't you be scientifically accurate?"

Cut him some slack, he's an engineer ;-)

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182821 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/24/2012 12:09 PM
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Cut him some slack, he's an engineer ;-)

LOL!

Worse than that...by education I'm a physicist. :-)

And certainly Ray does make a good point**. So I'll let all the free-will implications slide for now (besides, as Ben likes to point out, no one has ever come up with a good definition for "free will" anyway!).


**Though using the word "conceived" instead of "formed" wouldn't have killed the mellifluence of it.

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182827 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/24/2012 1:26 PM
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That's one way to look at it, I guess.

I think the phrasing is a product of the knowledge of the time. Back then men "planted seeds" which grew. They didn't know from ova.

Which also indicates the passage was written by men, not divinely inspired. God wouldn't have gotten it wrong.


just trying to look at the plain English

you're probably right that it's primitive biology
and metaphor ( made up story to scare the kids?)



... need Goldrushes to tell us what it really means

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182837 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/24/2012 4:51 PM
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I have to agree with Ray...

AM


Now my faith in the universe is shaken.

:-P


Frydaze1

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182841 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/24/2012 5:34 PM
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feedmeNOWhuman:
Conception does not occur in the womb.
=======================
Really?
Then where DOES it occur???
Norm.
=======================
In the fallopian tube.




And yet Norm, with this level of ignorance, still feels qualified to comment on reproductive matters.

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Author: rev2217 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182847 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/25/2012 8:29 AM
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Bill,

In the fallopian tube.

Interesting. Very, very interesting.

Don't they teach this stuff in the seminary?

No; it is NOT theology.

OR middle school?

I don't recall our biology text being that specific, leaving the impression that fertilization normally occurred in the uterus. Of course, the occurrance of fertilization in the fallopian tube would explain the occurrance of octopic pregnancies.

But in any case, I don't see how this detail changes anything with regard to the abortion issue.

Norm.

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Author: rev2217 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182848 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/25/2012 8:44 AM
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1poorguy,

I suspect all they teach is "it's bad except between married couples (male/female) in the missionary position with the lights off. Then it's not quite as bad.

The Catholic viewpoint is that sexual intercourse within marriage is good, a God-given gift, and that there's no restriction on foreplay, afterplay, or sexual position. Historically, the "manuals" required only that the sperm be deposited in the "proper receptacle" (that is, the vagina).

Of course, several Protestant sects historically were a lot stricter about this.

Norm.

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Author: rev2217 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182849 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/25/2012 8:58 AM
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1poorguy,

... no one has ever come up with a good definition for "free will" anyway!

I'm not convinced of that.

Free will means, quite simply, the fact that you and I can choose, of our own accord, to submit to God's plan for our lives or to do that which is contrary to God's plan for our lives, just as easily as we can choose between chocolate and vanilla ice cream. It means that God does not impose his will on us.

What is the problem with that definition?

Norm.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182859 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/25/2012 11:45 AM
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The Catholic viewpoint is that sexual intercourse within marriage is good, a God-given gift, and that there's no restriction on foreplay, afterplay, or sexual position.

Just an FYI, it's called the "missionary position" because of Catholic missionaries. When they set-up shop to "teach the savages" that was one of the things they taught them. As I recall it was motivated by the thought that gravity would assist with impregnation (a view held by the Church in the 15th and 16th centuries, if not longer).

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182861 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/25/2012 12:06 PM
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I'm not convinced of that.

I'm not surprised. It shoots down one of the fundamental tenets of your religion.

I'm surprised benjd25 didn't interject yet, but he provided the most succinct answer to the question I can recall.

http://boards.fool.com/the-commonly-held-definition-of-free-...

I think Bryan's definition would be the commonly held one:

free will (given a choice between a and b, I can genuinely choose both)
http://boards.fool.com/if-i-want-to-have-a-rational-discussi......

You can't genuinely choose both.

Specify a set of conditions at the time you're choosing between a and b, including every feature of reality. Does this set of conditions, including your own thoughts, emotions, values, memories, etc., determine your choice? Hypothetically, if you were to replay this, would your choice be the same every time?

If yes, your choice is determined by you, is deterministic in nature, and you could not have genuinely chosen otherwise.

If no, your choice is not determined by you (you are, after all, one of the features of reality) and is not deterministic in nature. The choice is probabilistic at best - perhaps 'you' are choosing to set the probabilities at 70% a and 30% b. But you are not able to genuinely choose either one, much less both.


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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182864 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/25/2012 12:58 PM
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(Norm:) The Catholic viewpoint is that sexual intercourse within marriage is good, a God-given gift, and that there's no restriction on foreplay, afterplay, or sexual position.
=====================
(1poorguy:)Just an FYI, it's called the "missionary position" because of Catholic missionaries. When they set-up shop to "teach the savages" that was one of the things they taught them. As I recall it was motivated by the thought that gravity would assist with impregnation (a view held by the Church in the 15th and 16th centuries, if not longer).

=====================
That may be. My understanding was that it also had something to do with it being harder for a woman to have an orgasm in that position (most findthe do better being on top.) They wanted to discourage the notion that sex is for fun, not just for breeding. Seriously.

Bill

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 182870 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/25/2012 1:38 PM
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I don't recall our biology text being that specific, leaving the impression that fertilization normally occurred in the uterus. Of course, the occurrance of fertilization in the fallopian tube would explain the occurrance of octopic pregnancies.

But in any case, I don't see how this detail changes anything with regard to the abortion issue.




If humans are formed in the uterus, then clearly they don't exist in the fallopian tube where conception occurs. And so life begins *after* conception.

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Author: rev2217 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183050 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/30/2012 11:37 PM
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1poorguy,

Just an FYI, it's called the "missionary position" because of Catholic missionaries.

Probably not. Protestant denominations typically were much stricter than Catholics about this sort of thing.

But even if the missionaries were Catholic, that was never a doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Norm.

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Author: rev2217 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183051 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 9/30/2012 11:40 PM
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1poorguy,

You can't genuinely choose both.

Specify a set of conditions at the time you're choosing between a and b, including every feature of reality. Does this set of conditions, including your own thoughts, emotions, values, memories, etc., determine your choice? Hypothetically, if you were to replay this, would your choice be the same every time?

If yes, your choice is determined by you, is deterministic in nature, and you could not have genuinely chosen otherwise.

If no, your choice is not determined by you (you are, after all, one of the features of reality) and is not deterministic in nature. The choice is probabilistic at best - perhaps 'you' are choosing to set the probabilities at 70% a and 30% b. But you are not able to genuinely choose either one, much less both.


Here, you are committing the fallacy of axiomatically assuming what you are trying to proove -- that is, that a choice between A and B is not a free choice.

Norm.

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Author: benjd25 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183053 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 10/1/2012 5:42 AM
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I'm surprised benjd25 didn't interject yet, but he provided the most succinct answer to the question I can recall.

I don't read every post here, and this was one of the ones that I skipped.

Here, you are committing the fallacy of axiomatically assuming what you are trying to proove -- that is, that a choice between A and B is not a free choice.

Nothing of what I wrote changes if 'a' is submitting to God's plan in a particular instance and 'b' is not submitting to God's plan in a particular instance. It still covers all of the possibilities.

I'll re-write it using your definition of free choice:

Specify a set of conditions at the time you're choosing between 'submitting to God's plan' and 'not submitting to God's plan', including every feature of reality. Does this set of conditions, including your own thoughts, emotions, values, memories, etc., determine your choice? Hypothetically, if you were to replay this, would your choice be the same every time?

If yes, your choice is determined by you, is deterministic in nature, and you could not have genuinely chosen otherwise.

If no, your choice is not determined by you (you are, after all, one of the features of reality) and is not deterministic in nature. The choice is probabilistic at best - perhaps 'you' are choosing to set the probabilities at 70% 'submitting to God's plan' and 30% 'not submitting to God's plan'. But you are not able to genuinely choose either one, much less both.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183064 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 10/1/2012 12:57 PM
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Here, you are committing the fallacy of axiomatically assuming what you are trying to proove -- that is, that a choice between A and B is not a free choice.

Wrong. And benjd25 just handed your hat to you.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183095 of 195758
Subject: Re: The Circle of Life Date: 10/1/2012 5:50 PM
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Made me look.

Wiki doesn't agree with you (or rather, the Wiki's sources don't agree):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missionary_position#History

Although the Bible does not mention sexual positions, from the 6th to 16th centuries, some Church authorities taught that intercourse should be face-to-face, man-on-top, primarily because they believed that semen flows with gravity, leading to conception.[4] Exceptions were made for couples dealing with illness, obesity, or pregnancy. According to John Bancroft's Human Sexuality and Its Problems, Thomas Aquinas believed that crimes against nature included intercourse in "unnatural" ways. Protestants did not communicate proper sex positions, and the Catholic Church eventually abandoned its discourse on the topic.[64] Simon Hardy wrote that the missionary position was used to distinguish "bestial and civilized sex."[65]

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