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Author: MDGluon Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 60049  
Subject: Re: Such different conclusions Date: 3/16/2007 11:44 AM
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The civilization that meets your policy/ideology has failed over & over.

What civilization are you talking about?

Many consider "to each according to their need" a utopian ideal, yet I'm not aware of any such society that has not failed/

Nice word stuffing...when did I mention this?
And when/what civilization ever did I propose as you imply?
Such a civilization sounds like a New Testemant ideal by the way which has never been implemented as far as I know and would be unworkable due to many logistical problems (and the tyrrany it would cause).

In fact none have been successful for more than about 80 years or so.

Not sure what you are talking about...please elaborate if you want.

I am talking about people who believe we can live without almost any government (just military, military, and military needed), that an unrestrained free market would solve every problem, and that if we are all just good nice people (often defined as following religion X) we would not need any government using force at all.

Also I am in part talking about people who hold a very strong Father Controlled Family societal worldview (read George Lakoff's work to understand this term). This strong father model lends itself quite easily to both manipulation by amoral and powerful people and to being willing to install fascists/authoritarian governments.

Eventually when people figure out that they do not need to contribute to such a society in order to get its benefits, the system fails.

Are you basing idea on the Roman "Bread and Circuses" period of the Roman Empire or do you have some other model in mind.

What you, I think describe, is nothing that liberal ideology or progressive movements/thought have ever proposed and that most poeple understand is unworkable, even "evil Libruls" understand this. The fear that some will scam the system/program and attempt to get a "free lunch" is an odd boogeyman that is invoked usually with no data or analysis and usually ignores the positive benefits of certain programs (always look at things warts and all I say).

The fear of someone else getting something without paying for it is a clever political vote aquiring trick which rarely is true.

This is similiar to the lie Reagan told about "Cadillac Welfare Moms" who never existed, about family farms being lost due to the Inheritance Tax (few to no cases can be found in the real world), and the only partially true hypothesis that Welfare makes people lazy (not quite true, not quite a lie...a little of both).

See I understand conservatives/libertarians....I just don't drink deeply of the ideas/fears/rhetoric that drives many of them...I examine what little data there is and make up my own mind based based on it, not let others decide for me.

Which means if you have good data, are honest with ideas (disengenous fact twisting, cheery picking of data, and misuse of probability and statistics quickly will put posters into the "ignore" mental box), and if you use good reasoning to present an argument I am quite open and often can/will shift positions (if I even have a position on the subject that is). Be prepared though for me to present counter data, question your logic/reasoning, present counter arguments and to even come to a different conclusion about the whole thing and to point out flaws.

Some I see posting here, on both sides although usually more the conservative ones (they will not agree I am sure), seem unable to either see the others viewpoint, acknowledge the good points, or to be civil in any way. Some I see here constantly attempting to read others minds, claim they meant or said things they never did (Strawman word stuffing), and then get on the High Horse o Hooey dropping unmentionables all over the place stinking it up.

Just my view though and with $3.50 you can get a nice Mocha at the local coffee shop.

md (How many businesses project out for 60 years?)

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