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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 134679  
Subject: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 2:25 AM
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The one lingering question that I had has always been this: What does the electorate really look like? Is it similar to the Obama ascendancy of 2008 or is there a mass of people sympathetic to the Tea Party as in 2010?

Well now we know. Obama got his 332 electoral votes and he appears to have built a coalition of the 50.1%.

This is now the America we live in: democrats are a structural majority. Say what you will about Romney being a liberal flip/flopping so and so, the reality of it all is that there are more of them than there are us.

So what are the next four years going to be like?

A word? Painful. I didn't listen to Obama's speech but I'm sure he offered up all the bromides about unity that he issued last time. Obama will have learned from his last four years: he won't say "I won" and that "elections have consequences" anymore. Now he'll have learned to say "I'm reaching out to the GOP" while screwing us all with as much unchecked liberalism as is humanly possible. And the GOP, now firmly branded as a broken party bitterly clinging to its racist past, will buckle.

What does that mean?

It means that if you make over $100k you can expect your taxes to skyrocket. It means that if you make over $100k and you have any stocks at all your cap gains taxes are going to blast upward. Bend over; here it comes.

There will be no closing of the deficit in real terms. Obama will jack taxes up to the point where he maybe knocks $3-400 billion off of his $1.3t deficits. He will then hail the resulting $1Trillion dollar deficit as a shining symbol of his leadership and the pat the Republicans on the head for coming around to their senses. Then he'll ask for more taxes.

Whither the economy? Kiss the coal industry good-bye. Even before the election the EPA was crafting regulations that would finish off the coal industry. Natural gas is next via fracking restrictions. After that it will be shale oil.

Not coincidentally, energy was leading the way in what little recovery was actually going on. The rug will be pullled.

So where's the growth going to come from? Obama has the bread and circuses thing down pat. He knows that if he can prop up the stock market long enough, he can ride through bad news. So expect zero interest rates for you and me for the near future. Expect the printing presses to run full speed from now on. That works great until the music stops...

What else does his win mean?

It also means that Obamacare is here to stay. Forever. The bureaucracy will kick in starting in 1 year. The taxes kick in starting in January. It doesn't stop there. Do you have an HSA and like it? TFB. It's off to the state exchanges for you as that will be another deal the GOP will be forced to swallow.

This election was just won by a guy who campaigned on Big Bird, Sandra Fluke's supply of birth control pills, binders full of women, and raaaacism. In other words, we have just seen the triumph of the low information voter.

Congratulations, America.

That brings me to 2016. Many of you are already thinking what if we had just nominated someone who was more conservative? No offense - please, no offense to all my friends - but that won't fly in 2016.

The electorate we have now is different. Generation Y isn't about service. It's not about competing effectively and winning. It's about what can be done for them to make their lives easier. That's the formula under which Obama governs and it's the formula by which all future elections will now be run with: Who can bribe the most to win?

The GOP is in the position of having to tell people to work harder and take responsibility for their own lives. The democrats are in the position of telling people that it's all okay, somehow the money will be found to care for you.

For a population that votes not based on America's founding principles but on how much the government can provide, which do you think it will choose? A Ryan/Anybody or Rubio/Anybody ticket won't change that fundamental incentive dynamic.
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Author: erikinthered100 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110052 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 3:01 AM
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I generally agree and it's depressing. But I do differ on a couple points.

A word? Painful. I didn't listen to Obama's speech but I'm sure he offered up all the bromides about unity that he issued last time. Obama will have learned from his last four years: he won't say "I won" and that "elections have consequences" anymore. Now he'll have learned to say "I'm reaching out to the GOP" while screwing us all with as much unchecked liberalism as is humanly possible. And the GOP, now firmly branded as a broken party bitterly clinging to its racist past, will buckle.

What does that mean?

It means that if you make over $100k you can expect your taxes to skyrocket. It means that if you make over $100k and you have any stocks at all your cap gains taxes are going to blast upward. Bend over; here it comes.


You may be right. I'm not confident that Republicans in Congress have a backbone. But if they do, they will gain by putting up a fight. The popular vote was essentially a tie and Obama didn't get a mandate to further his "tax the rich" agenda.


It also means that Obamacare is here to stay. Forever. The bureaucracy will kick in starting in 1 year. The taxes kick in starting in January. It doesn't stop there. Do you have an HSA and like it? TFB. It's off to the state exchanges for you as that will be another deal the GOP will be forced to swallow.


Not entirely true. The odds in favor of "Obamacare forever" increased. But there are a couple factors working against this outcome. First of all, there may be more constitutional challenges ahead - they may not succeed however since the courts have proven reluctant to uphold the Constitution. Secondly and possibly more importantly, it's unaffordable. The money will run out and Obamacare will have to go - this means fully nationalized health care or real free market reform which lowers costs while preserving freedom and quality. I am not optimistic in the short or medium run. In the long run, people may eventually get fed up with a crappy Marxist health care system.

The electorate we have now is different. Generation Y isn't about service. It's not about competing effectively and winning. It's about what can be done for them to make their lives easier. That's the formula under which Obama governs and it's the formula by which all future elections will now be run with: Who can bribe the most to win?

The only hope here is that when the money runs out, and it will, enough Americans are still sane enough to realize we need a change in direction. The current level of entitlement spending is unsustainable. The choice will be fiscal sanity or bankruptcy.


For a population that votes not based on America's founding principles but on how much the government can provide, which do you think it will choose? A Ryan/Anybody or Rubio/Anybody ticket won't change that fundamental incentive dynamic.

I do think there is hope if the Republican Party retains its fiscal conservatism and increases its defense of individual freedom while becoming more socially liberal. In this way, it could become the true "small government" party, a true alternative. American society is moving in a socially liberal direction and leaving the Republican Party behind. It could also become more liberal on immigration policy. Greater flexibility on immigration policy could greatly increase Republican votes in the Hispanic population which is the fastest growing ethnic group.

dave

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110053 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 3:15 AM
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You may be right. I'm not confident that Republicans in Congress have a backbone. But if they do, they will gain by putting up a fight. The popular vote was essentially a tie and Obama didn't get a mandate to further his "tax the rich" agenda.


Doesn't matter. What this election also demonstrated was that the media still has the power to sway the electorate. This will be spun as a mandate for Obama to lead the Republicans to the water of compromise. "Compromise" will be defined as a full course of 100% liberalism and any GOP objections will be labeled as sour grapes.

Not entirely true. The odds in favor of "Obamacare forever" increased. But there are a couple factors working against this outcome. First of all, there may be more constitutional challenges ahead - they may not succeed however since the courts have proven reluctant to uphold the Constitution. Secondly and possibly more importantly, it's unaffordable. The money will run out and Obamacare will have to go - this means fully nationalized health care or real free market reform which lowers costs while preserving freedom and quality. I am not optimistic in the short or medium run. In the long run, people may eventually get fed up with a crappy Marxist health care system.

The Courts are no guarantee. This election cycle also confirmed that the Supreme Court is not willing to do its fundamental job - protecting citizens from unConstitutional bad legislation - for fear of roiling the political waters between the branches of government. That was Roberts' gift to Obama. Even if the Catholic Church manages to get the suit up to the USSC, do you think that in light of Roberts' last ruling that he'll suddenly discover a backbone next time? I don't. And what happens if Scalia and/or Thomas retires? It won't matter then.

The only hope here is that when the money runs out, and it will, enough Americans are still sane enough to realize we need a change in direction. The current level of entitlement spending is unsustainable. The choice will be fiscal sanity or bankruptcy.

I was at a democrat-heavy election party. The other guests agree that we need to reform entitlements. They just haven't thought through as to how and in fact just voted in the 1 guy running who didn't have anything that resembled a plan.

These folks don't comprehend anything unless it impacts them directly and painfully.

I do think there is hope if the Republican Party retains its fiscal conservatism and increases its defense of individual freedom while becoming more socially liberal. In this way, it could become the true "small government" party, a true alternative. American society is moving in a socially liberal direction and leaving the Republican Party behind. It could also become more liberal on immigration policy. Greater flexibility on immigration policy could greatly increase Republican votes in the Hispanic population which is the fastest growing ethnic group.

In other words, future Republican candidates have to accept the premise that America is no longer a nation of people who look to a series of guiding principles but rather is a nation of people who get theirs for their particular salad bowl.

The melting pot? No more. Welcome to the Balkans, USA.

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Author: TheCrusader Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110057 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 5:00 AM
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TheDope1 made a number of insightful comments

This is now the America we live in: democrats are a structural majority. Say what you will about Romney being a liberal flip/flopping so and so, the reality of it all is that there are more of them than there are us.

I mix in conservative circles in Australia and here conservatives are still under the impression that they represent the silent majority. In this they are mistaken conservatives are actually a minority and a minority that is growing smaller each passing day. Just as you are seeing in the States and conservatives have long been a minority in Europe.

The left for the past 40 years have taken over Academia, Media, Public Service and also the managerial class in big business. This has consequences, it means that when a conservative does win office, they never win power as they preside over a massive left bureaucracy.

This is what makes it so depressing the best a conservative can ever do is arrest the growth in government and slow the erosion of civil liberties and the fact is that most of the time they cannot even do that, the bureaucracy just rolls on and the dependant class grows bigger.

The GOP is in the position of having to tell people to work harder and take responsibility for their own lives. The democrats are in the position of telling people that it's all okay, somehow the money will be found to care for you.

For a population that votes not based on America's founding principles but on how much the government can provide, which do you think it will choose? A Ryan/Anybody or Rubio/Anybody ticket won't change that fundamental incentive dynamic.

Exactly. But as you will have noticed no one cares, no one cares that there is a deficit everyone is happy just to kick the can along the road, look at Europe they have been doing it for decades.

It is so bad being a conservative that you dare not tell anyone that you are as it can effect your employment opportunities. Simply put soft left is the default position of society.

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110059 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 5:06 AM
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The Courts are no guarantee. This election cycle also confirmed that the Supreme Court is not willing to do its fundamental job - protecting citizens from unConstitutional bad legislation - for fear of roiling the political waters between the branches of government. That was Roberts' gift to Obama.

If Roberts had decided differently, the only remaining option for medical insurance reform would have been to go full-out single payer (like Medicare).
THAT would have been constitutional, because Medicare has already been ruled constitutional.
If Obamacare had been ruled unconstitutional, with 10-15 years a single payer solution would have been imposed. I would have preferred that.


In other words, future Republican candidates have to accept the premise that America is no longer a nation of people who look to a series of guiding principles but rather is a nation of people who get theirs for their particular salad bowl.

America was never really a melting pot, more like a squishy pizza, with stuff running together but still vaguely recognizable.
It has remained so, the only difference is that it used to be a predominantly WHITE pizza, and that's going away.

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110069 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 7:41 AM
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The electorate we have now is different. Generation Y isn't about service. It's not about competing effectively and winning. It's about what can be done for them to make their lives easier. That's the formula under which Obama governs and it's the formula by which all future elections will now be run with: Who can bribe the most to win?

Human beings never change. Roman Empire anyone?

It also means that Obamacare is here to stay. Forever. The bureaucracy will kick in starting in 1 year. The taxes kick in starting in January. It doesn't stop there. Do you have an HSA and like it? TFB. It's off to the state exchanges for you as that will be another deal the GOP will be forced to swallow.

Get your income under 400% of the FPL and you get the taxpayers to fund part of your ObamaKare premium. A lot of early retiree wannabees who are holding off because of the health insurance issue may jump at this. When one is no longer getting a salary, one can more easily adjust one's income level.


For a population that votes not based on America's founding principles but on how much the government can provide, which do you think it will choose? A Ryan/Anybody or Rubio/Anybody ticket won't change that fundamental incentive dynamic.

TheDope1


This is as good an analysis as I've read so far.

Mike

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Author: drebbin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110077 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 8:26 AM
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TheDope1: A word? Painful. I didn't listen to Obama's speech but I'm sure he offered up all the bromides about unity that he issued last time. Obama will have learned from his last four years: he won't say "I won" and that "elections have consequences" anymore. Now he'll have learned to say "I'm reaching out to the GOP" while screwing us all with as much unchecked liberalism as is humanly possible.

I feel a little (OK, a lot, you will say) like Lucy to 0bama's Charlie Brown. I'm going to believe that 0bama will take advantage of his second term. He had a truly historic opportunity to be the transformative, post-partisan, post-racial President that he campaigned as. If you watch his 2004 convention speech, and take it at face value, you would say as the Democrats did, wow, this guy is really different. He had 70+% approval at election, and he could have been bipartisan and cut across party lines. He could have taken on the race card industry and healed racial division in a way nobody else could have. But he wasn't interested. He saw 60 Democrat Senators and a path to liberal utopia. So he took it, and he instead deepened the partisan and racial divisions in this country.

But we are a forgiving country by nature, and one of citizens who want to think the best of our President and our fellow countrymen. What if 0bama sees that he now gets a do-over, and tries to go for that legacy? I don't just mean superficial stuff, like say, asking Romney to be his Secretary of Business, or whatever. I mean what if he really does sit down at the table with Republicans and Democrats for the first time? What if he decides to lead, and pushes the Democrats to compromise on deficits and entitlements? What if he stops exploiting the racial and partisan stereotypes, and calls others out for doing so? Won't 0bama want a legacy, beyond turning us into Venezuela with his bloated entitlements and hyper-progressive taxation?

I know, you think I'm out of my mind. I'm not just assuming that he will take a different approach. I'm just choosing to think the best as we go into the next term. I was burned for doing this at the start of his first term, but I still can't help it. I think you go into this giving him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe a much shorter one this time, since we know who he is now. But he also has a different incentive. No more elections. Just a legacy. He's already ushered in 0bamacare, which will in fact transform our country, just not the way many of its supporters want to believe. What if he goes for a truly remarkable legacy this time?

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110081 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 8:48 AM
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But we are a forgiving country by nature, and one of citizens who want to think the best of our President and our fellow countrymen. What if 0bama sees that he now gets a do-over, and tries to go for that legacy? I don't just mean superficial stuff, like say, asking Romney to be his Secretary of Business, or whatever. I mean what if he really does sit down at the table with Republicans and Democrats for the first time? What if he decides to lead, and pushes the Democrats to compromise on deficits and entitlements? What if he stops exploiting the racial and partisan stereotypes, and calls others out for doing so? Won't 0bama want a legacy, beyond turning us into Venezuela with his bloated entitlements and hyper-progressive taxation?

What if a flying unicorn suddenly alighted in my backyard?

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Author: drebbin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110082 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 8:48 AM
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TheDope1: This election was just won by a guy who campaigned on Big Bird, Sandra Fluke's supply of birth control pills, binders full of women, and raaaacism. In other words, we have just seen the triumph of the low information voter.

BTW, your post was really good. I'm just triaging here through a bunch of stuff, so I am picking out one point I wanted to comment on. But the rest was good analysis, too.

This is one way that 0bama broke the mold for elections. Recall in my state of the race analyses that I had three factors I was considering: the national polls (at the time, pro-Romney), the actions of the candidates (Romney going big and for the middle, 0bama going small and for the base), and the state polls (favoring 0bama).

In the past, the candidate going small indicated a loser. And maybe that was going to happen, before Sandy. The national polls collapsed, so we'll never know. But not necessarily, and 0bama's strategy of turn out the base and scare the middle ended up working. This was usually indicative of a losing candidate in desperation, and rarely if ever successful. In hindsight, it was 0bama's strategy all along to goose the hell out of his base turnout, and you just have to hand it to him and his campaign, they did it in the most extraordinary GOTV effort that I have ever seen or heard of.

The downside is that he didn't help himself in terms of a second term agenda. I guess he has a mandate to not eliminate PBS funding. And we'll see what the consequences of that are. But he is going to have to start from the beginning if he wants to accomplish anything legislatively. Of course, he has shown in his first term to have contempt for that, and prefers to circumvent. We will see if Republicans will roll over as much in the second term.

For a population that votes not based on America's founding principles but on how much the government can provide, which do you think it will choose? A Ryan/Anybody or Rubio/Anybody ticket won't change that fundamental incentive dynamic.

Mmmmmmmmmmm...don't be so sure. This is why it is good to wait a little while after a defeat (or victory) to analyze. It is entirely human nature to look at the current world as it is and assume that this is the way it will always be (and how it has always been, we are shortsighted by nature). In the immediate aftermath of a defeat, this is just magnified like crazy. But let's not pretend that this was a 60-40 Reagan-Mondale type thing. This was a 50-49 defeat. Demoralizing that it could even happen at those numbers, but maybe over-reading, given the low information that so many people vote on. Low information can work on your side the next time.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110083 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 8:51 AM
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Mmmmmmmmmmm...don't be so sure. This is why it is good to wait a little while after a defeat (or victory) to analyze. It is entirely human nature to look at the current world as it is and assume that this is the way it will always be (and how it has always been, we are shortsighted by nature). In the immediate aftermath of a defeat, this is just magnified like crazy. But let's not pretend that this was a 60-40 Reagan-Mondale type thing. This was a 50-49 defeat. Demoralizing that it could even happen at those numbers, but maybe over-reading, given the low information that so many people vote on. Low information can work on your side the next time.

The Republican brand still hasn't recovered. I'm not sure it ever will.

Obama voters vote for the democrat no matter what happens. To them, the GOP truly is a party of racist freaks.

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Author: drebbin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110091 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 9:27 AM
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TheDope1: Obama voters vote for the democrat no matter what happens. To them, the GOP truly is a party of racist freaks.

Many of them are lost, for good. This was actually the issue I was discussing with my wife last night. Even forget about the producers vs. takers split. As it approaches or surpasses 50% for the takers, we're on our way to Venezuela. But my question was about my friends from college. They are what you would call well-to-do (I'm talking about a group of about 10 guys and their wives who I lived with in college and consider among my closest friends). Dual 6-figure incomes, 2 kids, at least one hybrid car in the garage, etc. My point is, these people are paying taxes up the freaking wazoo. A LOT more than I do, since I am the sole wage-earner supporting a household of 6. Yet they are all Democrats, from the slightly liberal to the hardcore left. So it isn't as simple as people voting their pocketbooks. These are households with over $200k income, although after taxes, maybe they are pulling in less than I am. For them, I think a lot of it is that they see themselves as caring, tolerant, open-minded, which is what defines Democrats to them. And Republicans are all evil and nasty and hate women, and they can't be associated with that. I don't talk politics much with them, but I read their Facebook posts, and only today did I start responding with questions about what they think of me, to say such things.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110096 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 9:44 AM
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What this election also demonstrated was that the media still has the power to sway the electorate.

Really? You're blaming the media? haven't you learned anything?

The Republican position on immigration lost the increasingly important Latino vote. The party's position on gay marriage mobilized young progressives and alienated young moderates, even many young conservatives. "War on women" or not, the party's position on women's health issues (not just abortion rights) and the many Neanderthalish gaffes about rape lost millions of women voters. "Let Detroit Go Bankrupt" lost Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania. "Abolish FEMA" may have lost Florida.

The party nominated another condescending rich guy elitist (a mistake the Democrats made eight years ago with Kerry) who could no more "connect" with the electorate than they could with him. Romney's "business" experience and success was based mainly on screwing blue-collar and middle class workers, firing them and moving their jobs overseas. Add to that, he was never really trusted by conservatives -- because he simply isn't one -- and never really trusted by liberals and moderates -- because he earnestly pretended to be conservative. Romney, more than anything, came across as a elitist opportunist with a sense of confident entitlement.

Timing. A more seasoned Marc Rubio would have cleaned Obama's clock.

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Author: zoningfool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110097 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 9:45 AM
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The electorate we have now is different. Generation Y isn't about service. It's not about competing effectively and winning. It's about what can be done for them to make their lives easier. That's the formula under which Obama governs and it's the formula by which all future elections will now be run with: Who can bribe the most to win?

Exactly. We are becoming a nation of takers--with any shred of conscience or guilt about receiving without contributing being wiped away by the political and cultural rhetoric that justifies living on someone else's tab.

The only hope here is that when the money runs out, and it will, enough Americans are still sane enough to realize we need a change in direction. The current level of entitlement spending is unsustainable. The choice will be fiscal sanity or bankruptcy.

I'm afraid it will take that. I don't see the mentality changing on its own--only by the head-on collision with reality that will occur...someday....

There are morons (unfortunately most of the electorate apparently ) out there would can't see the train coming straight at them. H.L. Mencken was right: "no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people."

What will the next four years be like? Mediocrity, incompetence and a steady march towards socialism. Some people never learn...and we are surrounded by them.....

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110105 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 10:23 AM
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Exactly. We are becoming a nation of takers--with any shred of conscience or guilt about receiving without contributing being wiped away by the political and cultural rhetoric that justifies living on someone else's tab.

Do you and Dope have anything to back this notion up about the "moochiness" of Generation Y and Millenials? Seems to me that this is what older folks have said about younger folks, like, forever.

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Author: TerryMcK Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110118 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 11:41 AM
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Really? You're blaming the media? haven't you learned anything?

The Republican position on immigration lost the increasingly important Latino vote. The party's position on gay marriage mobilized young progressives and alienated young moderates, even many young conservatives. "War on women" or not, the party's position on women's health issues (not just abortion rights) and the many Neanderthalish gaffes about rape lost millions of women voters. "Let Detroit Go Bankrupt" lost Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania. "Abolish FEMA" may have lost Florida.


Really - and just where did all of your points get big play.

OTOH, how much play and journalistic digging resulted from - Benghazi, a bump in the road, all of the Biden gaffes, the President working around laws, and his associates. I couldn't believe it when MSNBC was discussing how bad Romney's associates were with people like Trump, and Ted Nugent but nothing about the rap stars who have gone to the White house or Obama's radical friends.

You may want to rationalize this any way you like, but the Republicans have an uphill battle with the media.

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Author: TerryMcK Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110131 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 12:09 PM
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Romney's "business" experience and success was based mainly on screwing blue-collar and middle class workers

Some folks will never understand real business.

....and of course your point is unlike what Democrat leaders do to minrities.

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Author: drebbin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110136 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 12:13 PM
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TerryMcK: Some folks will never understand real business

Nor can they distinguish between left-wing talking points and reality, no matter how outrageous and transparently bogus those talking points are. So don't worry about them. I wouldn't say that group is 47% of the electorate, but whatever number it is, they aren't going to vote Republican, and you can't worry about them.

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Author: brewer12345 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110140 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 12:23 PM
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Translation for non-cranks:

"I am a sore loser and ready to piss in the punchbowl since I can't drink any more."

"Damn kids, get off my lawn."

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Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 12:38 PM
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America was never really a melting pot, more like a squishy pizza, with stuff running together but still vaguely recognizable.
It has remained so, the only difference is that it used to be a predominantly WHITE pizza, and that's going away.


Yup.

Take a time machine back to turn of the century New York and see how well all the Irish, Jews and Italians just abandoned their cultural heritage and assimilated into a big happy family of regular old white-bread "Americans".

(Hint: It never happened)

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110151 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 12:51 PM
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It's your mess now. I'm done. Let me know what you decide and put it in place.

A further Balkanization of the country? Got any ideas?
How about the deficit? Go tax you some 1%.
Entitlements? Can't keep buying people off forever. Better go tax you some 2%-49.9%.

Oh. Please provide the details. We know you're sticklers for that.

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110154 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 1:18 PM
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Translation for non-cranks:

"I am a sore loser and ready to piss in the punchbowl since I can't drink any more."

"Damn kids, get off my lawn."



Dude,

Your team won. It's up to them to balance the budget, fix hurricane damage, get people employment, etc. Congratulations. Go drink a nice beer. I have a Rochefort 10 ale I'm cracking open tonight.

Don't you have looters to deal with in Joisey and in New Yawk?

Mike

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Author: brewer12345 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110160 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 1:25 PM
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Your team won. It's up to them to balance the budget, fix hurricane damage, get people employment, etc.

**********************

Not true. As you are well aware, these days nothing important happens without politicians from both parties compromising and working together. We need that to happen, badly, and I would be very willing to say that both parties have been guilty of intransigence. Democrats need to give a little in spite of election success and Republicans (especially Rep. Boehner) needs to be willing to work with the other party for the good of the country. Nobody can wave a magic wand and solve the country's problems, but a lot of good can be done if both parties would work together in good faith. Hell, just for the novelty value it would be worth trying, dontcha think?

I don't live in NJ anymore, but frankly your comment is pretty offensive. Lots of people in that area are really hurting, so be polite.

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110167 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 2:08 PM
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Take a time machine back to turn of the century New York and see how well all the Irish, Jews and Italians just abandoned their cultural heritage and assimilated into a big happy family of regular old white-bread "Americans".

With the passage of time many of the children of those immigrants learned about America as Americans, and not as someone who arrived at Ellis Island.

As they matured, they intermarried, had children of their own, and moved on - still respecting their heritage, but from the perspective of Americans.

My mother is 100% German. My GM arrived here as a small child and my GF was born here to immigrant parents. My mother married a man of French/Dutch/Irish heritage, and here I am today. And I fathered a child with a woman I met in The Philippines.

With the passage of time today's immigrants will mature, have kids of their own, and those kids will make their of way in the world, just like everybody else.

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110168 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 2:08 PM
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Lots of people in that area are really hurting, so be polite.




So the reports I've read about looting up there are false? Interesting that reporting on something that I've read is considered offensive. As far as being polite I think you need to look in a mirror. I'm not the one going to a message board for conservatives and trying to get some digs in.

Mike, who is being very restrained in this post.

By the way, men like Harry Reid don't appear to be the type of men who are willing to compromise and work across the aisle.

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Author: brewer12345 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110173 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 2:23 PM
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men like Harry Reid don't appear to be the type of men who are willing to compromise and work across the aisle.

*********************

Absolutely. Congress as a whole has been completely obstructionist even when they really, really need to stop pulling on opposite sides of the rope. Democrats have been as guilty of this as Republicans. The frustrating thing is that most voters seem to have done the "I like my Congresscritter, but I hate Congress" thing and returned all the intransigensts to office. I don't know what the solution is, but I hope they work it out sooner rather than later. Some give and take seems like a reasonable place to start.

You think this message board is your exclusive territory or something? <Mental image of dogs marking territory> I followed a "best of" link (like an idiot), that's all. If I were trying to get digs in, I would have and you would know it.

Are there looters? You bet, and it is sad. I hope the Nor'easter hitting the area now doesn't add to the misery and the difficulty which all the people trying to clean up the mess already have.

I would love to see some civility in the national political discourse. How about we start here?

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110174 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 2:33 PM
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Civility? You first. You can start with providing concrete proposals on how to fix

The deficit
The debt
Social Security
Medicare/Medicaid

This cycle taught me that ideas don't mean jack $h1t. There is no point.

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Author: Umm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110175 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 2:34 PM
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"The electorate we have now is different. Generation Y isn't about service. It's not about competing effectively and winning. It's about what can be done for them to make their lives easier. That's the formula under which Obama governs and it's the formula by which all future elections will now be run with: Who can bribe the most to win?

The GOP is in the position of having to tell people to work harder and take responsibility for their own lives. The democrats are in the position of telling people that it's all okay, somehow the money will be found to care for you.",/i>

This, in a nutshell, is why you fail at so much politically.

You have a warped, distorted view of what your oppoonents views and positions are and no amount of evidence to the contrary will change your warped view. Then when your opponents views get validated with an election, rather than re-think your warped view, you just think the electorate has a warped view as well.


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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110176 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 2:38 PM
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And bear in mind your party has spent the last 12 years calling mine stupid, racist and crazy. I have zero personal incentive to be polite.

You wanted control? GOP has nothing but racist ideas? Great. The country's problems are yours. Let me know what you want to do when *you* figure it out.

We've got some Grece-like issues coming up. I know what I'd do. Your party has spent years telling me how stupid I am.

So I gladly turn the reins over to you. As for me, I'm going to figure how to save my own a$$ starting next week with my financial planner.

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Author: brewer12345 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110177 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 2:43 PM
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Civility? You first. You can start with providing concrete proposals on how to fix

The deficit
The debt
Social Security
Medicare/Medicaid

This cycle taught me that ideas don't mean jack $h1t. There is no point.
************************

Most of these things have obvious solutions, no? They just aren't ones that obstructionist politicians aren't willing to come together on, presumably because their individual incentives are to pander to their base.

Lets see, the deficit: raise taxes, cut defense spending, cut whatever other discretionary spending we can find, and make sure you do all of this gradually so that we do not drive the economy into a depression.

The debt: see above. Alternatively, we could do what we did the last time the US was this indebted, namely provoke an inflationary cycle that reduces the real value of the debt over a couple decades and leaves the economy delevered in real terms. I think this is not a great solution, but I regard it as a real possibility so I have a 30 year fixed mortgage, keep my fixed income durations short, and maintain a healthy allocation to commodity producers.

Social Security: increase taxes and/or raise the amount of earnings subject to SS, increase retirement ages for those under 50, consider means testing of some sort. Like it or not, this is really a welfare program, so we should not expect to get back what we pay into it.

Medicare/Medicaid: this is by far the toughest. Personally, I think a national single payor medical system is the only viable solution (warts and all) because a monopsony is probably the most (brutally) efficient way to control costs. But this is a complex situation and I would be all ears for any suggestions you have.

But here is the problem: none of these solutions are what you might call pleasant and all of them involve oxes being gored. They also require some or all of us to pay more or give something up. I am willing to do so because I think fixing all of these problems is extremely important. I am not so sure that the average voter would take the same view.

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Author: brewer12345 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110178 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 2:50 PM
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And bear in mind your party has spent the last 12 years calling mine stupid, racist and crazy. I have zero personal incentive to be polite.

You wanted control? GOP has nothing but racist ideas? Great. The country's problems are yours. Let me know what you want to do when *you* figure it out.

We've got some Grece-like issues coming up. I know what I'd do. Your party has spent years telling me how stupid I am.

So I gladly turn the reins over to you. As for me, I'm going to figure how to save my own a$$ starting next week with my financial planner.
******************

Please calm down and do nothing rash with investments, etc. Generally speaking that is just an excellent way to cut your own throat. Relax, stick to your long term asset allocation, and ignore the lumps, bumps and spikes. Dire predictions aside, this is still the US and it will remain the bastion of capitalism and the best investing environment in the world.

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Author: Umm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110179 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 3:01 PM
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"It means that if you make over $100k you can expect your taxes to skyrocket. It means that if you make over $100k and you have any stocks at all your cap gains taxes are going to blast upward. Bend over; here it comes."

You mean they will return to the level of the Clinton years?

"Kiss the coal industry good-bye. Even before the election the EPA was crafting regulations that would finish off the coal industry. Natural gas is next via fracking restrictions. After that it will be shale oil."

Take a deep breath and calm down. The coal, natural gas, and shale oil industries will still be here in 4 years. Regulating them so they have to behave in a decent manner and not kill people and pollute will not destroy those industries.

In the past, you have made the claim that you do not want to see the environment destroyed and so support environmental regulation, yet every single time rules are proposed to stop pollution you always act like it will be the end of the world. Your actions do not follow your words.

"So where's the growth going to come from? Obama has the bread and circuses thing down pat. He knows that if he can prop up the stock market long enough, he can ride through bad news. So expect zero interest rates for you and me for the near future. Expect the printing presses to run full speed from now on. That works great until the music stops..."

That you attribute this to Obama is a clear sign of ODS. First of all, the Fed sets rates, not Obama. Secondly, interest rates have been abnormally low long before Obama ever took office (in fact the reletively low rates were on of the primary causes of the housing bubble). Somehow I doubt you would have said any of that had Romney have won even though the Fed would have continued with the same policies. Would you have said Romney has the bread and circuses thing down pat?

Partisan consistency was never your ball of wax.

"This election was just won by a guy who campaigned on Big Bird, Sandra Fluke's supply of birth control pills, binders full of women, and raaaacism."

That is a rather dishonest distortion.

You could just as easily say that the election was just won by a guy who campaigned on being a commie, Keyan born muslim who is going to destroy the coal and gas industries and take away all of your guns while thinking that no one builds their own business. Such distortions may fire up blind partisanship but has little to do with reality.

In reality Obama campaigned on many legitimate topics (the economy, deficits, foreign policy, education) and he won the election was for lots of other reasons you do not even begin to touch upon. Probably because you cannot even grasp them due to the ODS and partisan blindness getting in the way.

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110184 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 3:31 PM
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You think this message board is your exclusive territory or something?

Of course I'm not saying that. Let me provide an analogy that any sports fan could understand. Say Ohio State plays Michigan in football and defeats Michigan. I would consider it bad form for Ohio State football fans to go to a Michigan college football message board immediately after the game concludes and gloat.

Mike

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110185 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 3:37 PM
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Regulating them so they have to behave in a decent manner and not kill people and pollute will not destroy those industries.

umm


Au contraire.

Mr. Obama in 2008.

"In the 2008 campaign, Obama told the San Francisco Chronicle that the “notion of no coal . . . is an illusion,” but he added that he favored a cap-and-trade system. “So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can,” Obama continued. “It’s just that it will bankrupt them because they’re going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that’s being emitted.”

I am a bit sensitive about this issue since my job kinda depends on the existance of American coal fired power plants.

The left also wants to kill the shale gas industry which happens to be very important to SW PA.

Mike

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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110192 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 4:18 PM
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Republicans should give Obama everything he wants, and unanimously, while proclaiming very loudly the people are getting what they voted for. It's like suddenly dropping the rope in a tug of war.

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Author: TerryMcK Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110198 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 4:43 PM
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Republicans should give Obama everything he wants, and unanimously, while proclaiming very loudly the people are getting what they voted for. It's like suddenly dropping the rope in a tug of war.

No, when you drop the rope, the other side falls down.

If you give up and give Obama what he wants, then just have your check directed to the White House. However, who will bail you out later.

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Author: TerryMcK Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110202 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 4:57 PM
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Most of these things have obvious solutions, no?

No, if they did, they would have been solved.

They just aren't ones that obstructionist politicians aren't willing to come together on, presumably because their individual incentives are to pander to their base.

Lets see, the deficit: raise taxes, cut defense spending, cut whatever other discretionary spending we can find, and make sure you do all of this gradually so that we do not drive the economy into a depression.

The debt: see above.

Social Security: increase taxes and/or raise the amount of earnings subject to SS, increase retirement ages for those under 50, consider means testing of some sort.


There seems to be a thread in your solutions; raise taxes.

We have a very basic problem right now and there is no easy solution. Half of the people are paying for all of the expenses, and the trend is in the wrong direction. If we continue to add numbers to the takers and not to the makers; the bucket will run dry.

Sure you can raise taxes and many of the makers can afford a bit more. But if the demographics with the higher growth continues then we add more to the takers and the percentage of makers goes down more.

Couple that with an out-of-control government (spending) with little willingness to do their part, and that adds to the expense side and also reduces the percentage of makers.

An obvious omission from the list being discussed is tax reform. Without that, the bucker from the makers has a bunch of leaks.

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Author: brewer12345 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110209 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 5:13 PM
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There seems to be a thread in your solutions; raise taxes.

We have a very basic problem right now and there is no easy solution. Half of the people are paying for all of the expenses, and the trend is in the wrong direction. If we continue to add numbers to the takers and not to the makers; the bucket will run dry.

Sure you can raise taxes and many of the makers can afford a bit more. But if the demographics with the higher growth continues then we add more to the takers and the percentage of makers goes down more.

Couple that with an out-of-control government (spending) with little willingness to do their part, and that adds to the expense side and also reduces the percentage of makers.

An obvious omission from the list being discussed is tax reform. Without that, the bucker from the makers has a bunch of leaks.
***************************

Raise taxes is in most of what seem like obvious soltions to me because I can't see the math working any other way. Ideally we raise taxes a little (and gradually) and we reduce spending modestly (and gradually) and fix problems without wrecking the economy. Drastic spending cuts and/or drastic tax increases are pretty clearly both a bad idea.

Tax reform would be a great idea as well. The tax code is such a mess that it amazes me we all manage to file taxes every year. I would love to see it get done, but I have to say that it looks unlikely and in any event should take a backseat to sorting out our more pressing problems.

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Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 5:14 PM
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Romney's "business" experience and success was based mainly on screwing blue-collar and middle class workers
---
Some folks will never understand real business.


I understand Romney's business -- consulting and private equity -- well enough. And in general, there's nothing at all wrong with them. Closing unproductive factories and outsourcing jobs often makes good business sense. But that was his experience. Bain is not company that makes things. Well, it makes money for investors by reorganizing processess and, often, reducing costs by closing factories and laying people off... which, as I said, isn't the kind of business experience that goes down well with most middle-class and blue-collar workers.

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Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 5:23 PM
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Really - and just where did all of your points get big play.

Ah, so you're saying the media is biased for reporting on Romney's actual positions on issues.

OTOH, how much play and journalistic digging resulted from - Benghazi...

Digging? You're comparing digging to simply reporting what Romney or Bush said in a speech? How much digging went into anything regarding Romney?


...all of the Biden gaffes...

Here, I think you're trying to draw a comparison between Biden saying something stupid and one of the Republican candidates saying something stupid about rape and abortion. There's a big difference between a malapropism and actually stating your position. In other words, "legitimate rape" and the thing about children conceived in rape being part of God's plan or whatever weren't gaffes.


I couldn't believe it when MSNBC...

Oh. Forget MSNBC. It's almost as bad as Fox.


...was discussing how bad Romney's associates were with people like Trump, and Ted Nugent but nothing about the rap stars who have gone to the White house or Obama's radical friends.

How are Beyonce and Jay-Z equivalent in your head to Trump and Nugent, who at every opportunity sought public attention for their anti-Obama views?

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Author: TerryMcK Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110222 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 5:41 PM
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Bain is not company that makes things. Well, it makes money for investors by reorganizing processess and, often, reducing costs by closing factories and laying people off...

As I said about business; you give it a "well", as if it is an afterthought to make money. Your example is also not a reflection of his total business career.

which, as I said, isn't the kind of business experience that goes down well with most middle-class and blue-collar workers

Actually what you said was -

"Romney's "business" experience and success was based mainly on screwing blue-collar and middle class workers, firing them and moving their jobs overseas".

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110224 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 5:43 PM
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You may be right. I'm not confident that Republicans in Congress have a backbone. But if they do, they will gain by putting up a fight. The popular vote was essentially a tie and Obama didn't get a mandate to further his "tax the rich" agenda.

You don't understand how these things work. A democrat victory is proof of a mandate to tax the rich. ANY democrat victory. As long as there is one Democrat in elective office, that proves the American people want higher taxes on the rich.

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Author: TerryMcK Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110226 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 5:46 PM
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Really - and just where did all of your points get big play.

Ah, so you're saying the media is biased for reporting on Romney's actual positions on issues.

Nice try for deflection. Your point was that we will never learn about media bias. My point was that your talking points came from the media and mande my point.

OTOH, how much play and journalistic digging resulted from - Benghazi...

Digging? You're comparing digging to simply reporting what Romney or Bush said in a speech? How much digging went into anything regarding Romney

Oh I don't know, I guess the words just fell from the sky about off-shore accounts, pranks from 25 years ago, people who got "cancer" because of Mitt, etc. etc. Did I miss Mitt saying these things.

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Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 5:53 PM
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As I said about business; you give it a "well", as if it is an afterthought to make money.

That wasn't my intention. In my opinion, making money for shareholders is the only rationale for business managers. But that doesn't mean making a billion on a leveraged buyout the same as making, say, cars or computers. It's the difference between building a house and selling it and flipping a house in a rising market. I'd be happy to make money either way, but I don't confuse the two with regard to the skills involved.


Your example is also not a reflection of his total business career.

Perhaps not. That's why it's "an" example. But it's a big part of his business career and one he used to be quite proud of and campaign on. It is central to his image as a businessman.

And let's not forget who it was that started calling Romney a "vulture capitalist." It wasn't the Obama campaign.

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110229 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 5:55 PM
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I think you go into this giving him the benefit of the doubt.

But I have no doubt.

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110239 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 6:30 PM
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Really - and just where did all of your points get big play.

OTOH, how much play and journalistic digging resulted from - Benghazi, a bump in the road, all of the Biden gaffes, the President working around laws, and his associates. I couldn't believe it when MSNBC was discussing how bad Romney's associates were with people like Trump, and Ted Nugent but nothing about the rap stars who have gone to the White house or Obama's radical friends.


And don't forget how harshly the media criticized Romney's gaffe of suggesting that the anti-American attacks on 9/11/2012 were preplanned terrorist actions.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110241 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 6:39 PM
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TD wrote: The GOP is in the position of having to tell people to work harder and take responsibility for their own lives.

That's OK. I'm accustomed to working hard and taking responsibility. It's in my DNA. And it's more satisfying, too. A clear conscience is the softest pillow.

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Author: FoolishVintner Three stars, 500 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110246 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 6:50 PM
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I do think there is hope if the Republican Party retains its fiscal conservatism and increases its defense of individual freedom while becoming more socially liberal.

I would agree, but as a swing voter who probably would have voted for John Huntsman over Obama, and instead voted for Obama over Romney, one thing that I think really needs to be understood on a deeper level on the right is that fiscal conservatism can't be, can't be, can't be all about an anti-tax fetish, deregulation and the Norquist pledge. It can't be about that for political reasons, and it can't be about that for economic reasons.

What this election - and shifting voter demographics - ultimately means is a final nail in the coffin on the Nixon southern strategy. Whatever regional advantage the GOP gains from appealing primarily to wealthier whites will increasingly became the stone around the neck of any candidate in a national election. So yes, by all means the GOP needs to come to the center on social issues; swing voters are generally fiscally conservative and socially liberal. But the party needs to completely rethink the entire economic piece, revise its own definition of social conservatism, and back itself out of the corner it's painted itself into. Because if the GOP can't get unstuck from this anti-tax rut (a rut that the best Republicans presidents would NEVER have advised), so that swing voters don't automatically associate Republican candidates with what George H.W. Bush called voodoo economics, you can kiss the White House goodbye for the foreseeable future.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110249 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 6:58 PM
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What this election also demonstrated was that the media still has the power to sway the electorate.

xLife wrote: Really? You're blaming the media? haven't you learned anything?

The Republican position on immigration lost the increasingly important Latino vote.

The party's position on gay marriage mobilized young progressives and alienated young moderates, even many young conservatives.

"War on women" or not, the party's position on women's health issues (not just abortion rights) and the many Neanderthalish gaffes about rape lost millions of women voters.

"Let Detroit Go Bankrupt" lost Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania.

"Abolish FEMA" may have lost Florida.

-----

I'll respond to just one of your uninformed items.

Romney NEVER said, "Liquidate the auto industry." What he suggested was a reorganization (Chapter 13) that would have resembled what actually happened without the tied-in-a-bow gift to the unions.

Do you even comprehend how many non-union auto workers lost their pensions?

The MEDIA--in this case The New York Times--wrote the headline, "Let Detroit Go Bankrupt," which most people think of as Chapter 7 (liquidation) rather than Chapter 13 (reorganization). Did Romney get to choose the headline to his article? No, but the misinformed think he did and that he meant "Liquidate Detroit!"

Here's what he really said. Try not to be brainwashed by the NYT editor-composed headline.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?src=...

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Author: FoolishVintner Three stars, 500 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110250 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 6:59 PM
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A democrat victory is proof of a mandate to tax the rich. ANY democrat victory. As long as there is one Democrat in elective office, that proves the American people want higher taxes on the rich.

You are being facetious of course. No election won on such a narrow margin (even if the electoral vote wasn't as close) can be considered a mandate for anything.

But it cannot be denied that most Americans don't think the wealthy pay their fair share, and luckily we don't need to try to read the tea leaves of an election to learn about it. In fact, only 26% of Americans think the wealthy are paying their fair share. An overwhelming majority of Americans think they should pay more in taxes. Yes, that's a mandate.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57501245/most-americans-...

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110256 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 7:15 PM
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I'll respond to just one of your uninformed items.

That's an impolite way to begin a response.


Romney NEVER said, "Liquidate the auto industry."

Right. And I never said that he did.


What he suggested was a reorganization (Chapter 13) that would have resembled what actually happened without the tied-in-a-bow gift to the unions.

Right. And that's part of why it didn't go down well with blue-collar workers in Michigan and Ohio.

Seems to me you're being disagreeable without actually disagreeing.

The MEDIA--in this case The New York Times--wrote the headline, "Let Detroit Go Bankrupt..."

I know. And Romney said that the headline exactly described what he meant.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?_r=0...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/22/mitt-romney-auto-ba...

And again, his primary challengers nailed him on this first. Should the media have ignored it?

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110259 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 7:32 PM
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aj says

The Hispanic community has no interest whatsoever in making America a better place. Their only interest is "what can America offer us". They contribute nothing, the soul exception being those few who actually assimilate into our fabric. Hispanics want to remain Hispanic, live in their own self-imposed linguistic ghettos, and step out of it only for bringing things back in. Unlike immigrants from all other parts of the world, be it Europe or Asia, they have no interest in joining in being American. They just want to be here. Why do I say this? Because that's what they tell me, openly and without shame.

Pfft. You don't know the half of it, cabron. We want to sponge on your tax dollars, yes, but our real goal is to steal your car, squat in your house, and screw your daughter. Que te vaya bien, amigo.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110260 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/7/2012 7:36 PM
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The Hispanic community has no interest whatsoever in making America a better place. Their only interest is "what can America offer us". They contribute nothing, the soul exception being those few who actually assimilate into our fabric.

You couldn't have provided a better example of why the Republican Party has a problem with Hispanics.

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Author: JediGALT Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110609 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/9/2012 9:25 PM
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Y'all sounding like me now.

Jedi

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Author: JediGALT Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110610 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/9/2012 9:27 PM
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Pfft. You don't know the half of it, . We want to sponge on your tax dollars, yes, but our real goal is to steal your car, squat in your house, and screw your daughter. Que te vaya bien, amigo.
**

Well, when you look up statistics on auto theft, home squatting and overcrowding, and rape................you find.................................

When you look at percentage of welfare and prison population you find............

Jedi

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110613 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/9/2012 9:54 PM
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Jedi, I'm 100% in. They want liberalism. I'm even going to suggest liberal court justices for them.

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Author: JediGALT Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110616 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/9/2012 10:30 PM
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That's the only hangup I have.

Because their radical justices can go on inflicting Liberalism's punishment on America, well after America learns its lesson via the President, Senate, etc.

But I know no other route than to punish at this point.

JediG

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110617 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/9/2012 10:34 PM
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We have generations of work to do ahead of us.
But in the meantime, I'm with you. They want liberalism, so lets give it to them. Let the Bush tax cuts expire. Don't cut spending: increase it instead. Don't touch entitlements, increase those.

I'm even on board with single payer health care. Shoot, that's what cash payments, concierge doctors and medical tourism is for!

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Author: JediGALT Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110618 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/9/2012 11:01 PM
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That's why I've really curtailed discretionary spending the last 3 years or so, expecting this. Haven't flown in 4 years, I travel less, eat out less, buy less stuff. Enjoying friends, family, music more.

Also have been getting better at bartering, making deals with folks where I get discounts in return for paying cash and finally, legally using every deduction I can taxwise. Have been teaching others to do the same.


I've figured I need to save money in order to be able to deal with health care rationing and decline in health quality if it comes to that.

(Posted all that stuff over the years)

Life is actually quite pleasant and more simple this way.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110619 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/9/2012 11:21 PM
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Yep, I know you have :)
I held out hope that the reality of our fiscal situation would wake people up. It didn't. What we have instead is "Republicans are a bunch of racists".

Fine. I'm done posting till I'm blue in the face that we have to do something about our problems...and being called a racist nazi traitor teabagger in return. I'm going to roll out a series of posts on what we're facing and what we can do about it, but I'm done with trying to convince people.

It's now going to be my pleasure to tell every recent college grad who voted for Obama but lives with mom and dad what $16 trillion in US debt means for them. And how for every day they don't have a job their skills erode just a little bit more...meaning that when they do get a job, they'll be at a disadvantage to people like me (just entering my peak earning years and not about to cede my position to the kids)...and to grads just coming out who will have more updated skill sets.

They wanted hope and change. Well here it is, and the generation that thinks everybody's a winner can now experience losing in all it glory. FYIGM.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110620 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/9/2012 11:24 PM
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Oh - you'll LOVE this one: WA state just legalized pot. What the dimwits don't know is that employers can and will drug screen. So while they're having a jolly old time toking up with mom and dad, they're failing drug tests and staying unemployed. LOL. They're already crying about how unfair that is :)

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Author: Vile Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110633 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/10/2012 4:40 AM
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"Jedi, I'm 100% in. They want liberalism. I'm even going to suggest liberal court justices for them."

Please consider Eric Holder. Fast and Furious and the NBP's should usher him in as highly qualified according to Libtard standards.

Cheers,

Vile
NEVER SAY DIE!!!

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Author: iamski Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110641 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/10/2012 10:07 AM
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They want liberalism, so lets give it to them.

We have a very clear picture of what liberalism results in if we just look at the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

-snip

"...People were not behaving as you would expect them to behave in an emergency÷indeed, they were not behaving as they have behaved in other emergencies. That is what has shocked so many people: they have been saying that this is not what we expect from America. In fact, it is not even what we expect from a Third World country...."

"...When confronted with a disaster, people usually rise to the occasion. They work together to rescue people in danger, and they spontaneously organize to keep order and solve problems..."

"...We are an enterprising people, used to relying on our own initiative rather than waiting around for the government to take care of us..."

"So what explains the chaos in New Orleans?"

http://www.barossa-region.org/Australia/An-Unnatural-Disaste...

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110653 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/10/2012 11:58 AM
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Please consider Eric Holder. Fast and Furious and the NBP's should usher him in as highly qualified according to Libtard standards.

Cheers,

Vile
NEVER SAY DIE!!!



Don't forget Hillary Clinton!

Mike

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Author: FolacinTheAcidic Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110738 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/11/2012 5:05 PM
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Hispanics want to remain Hispanic, live in their own self-imposed linguistic ghettos,

My great-grandparents emigrated from Germany, and spoke very little English. My grandparents were bilingual. My mother understands some German (enough to respond (in English) to the little German girl who lived next door while her dad was working at the Ford plant (she said something snippy, and was very surprised when the visiting American lady understood her)). And great-grandma was apparently very annoyed that Mom wasn't made to speak German at home (and in retrospect, Mom is also).

From everything I can tell, the Hispanic immigrants are following exactly the same trajectory of any large group of immigrants in adopting English: generation one is (generally) barely fluent, their children are bilingual and the grandchildren probably speak only English.

Heck, the last time I was in NYC and visited Chinatown, most of the shopkeepers were speaking as much or more Chinese as English. Are you equally upset with them?

(other) Joe

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110739 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/11/2012 5:09 PM
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From everything I can tell, the Hispanic immigrants are following exactly the same trajectory of any large group of immigrants in adopting English: generation one is (generally) barely fluent, their children are bilingual and the grandchildren probably speak only English.

I met quite a few folks with Hispanic surnames that spoke only English. When questioned they are at least third generation Americans. So unless they live in some place like Laredo, they become more Americanized in subsequent generations.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110745 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/11/2012 8:20 PM
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I met quite a few folks with Hispanic surnames that spoke only English. When questioned they are at least third generation Americans. So unless they live in some place like Laredo, they become more Americanized in subsequent generations.
___________________________

Sadly both NY and California has large populations that have not assimilated and who are actively taught not to.

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Author: ggleblanc2 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110760 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/12/2012 5:34 AM
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Hi Jedi,

You were ahead of your time. Compared to you, we live in isolated cocoons amongst people like us.

Gilbert

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Author: ggleblanc2 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 110761 of 134679
Subject: Re: The next four years and 2016 Date: 11/12/2012 5:50 AM
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From the article "An Unnatural Disaster: A Hurricane Exposes the ManMade Disaster of the Welfare State".

What we consider "normal" behavior in an emergency is behavior that is normal for people who have values and take the responsibility to pursue and protect them. People with values respond to a disaster by fighting against it and doing whatever it takes to overcome the difficulties they face. They don't sit around and complain that the government hasn't taken care of them. And they don't use the chaos of a disaster as an opportunity to prey on their fellow men.

http://www.barossa-region.org/Australia/An-Unnatural-Disaste...

This doesn't just apply to Hurricane Katrina, or natural disasters in general.

It also applies to elections. Even elections won by people with no values other than obtaining power.


Remember,
Faith in God
Hope in the future based on knowing the truth
Charity to our fellow men and women
Duty to ourselves, our community, and our country.

Gilbert

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