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Author: bigbobboy Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 51384  
Subject: The Triple Crown Is Nonsense Date: 10/4/2012 10:28 PM
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So he says.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120923&content...

Robert
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Author: ramsfanray Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47785 of 51384
Subject: Re: The Triple Crown Is Nonsense Date: 10/4/2012 11:18 PM
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The cult of sabermetrics strikes again. How can these guys really expect to be taken seriously?

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47786 of 51384
Subject: Re: The Triple Crown Is Nonsense Date: 10/5/2012 12:11 AM
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The cult of sabermetrics strikes again. How can these guys really expect to be taken seriously?

Umm... Baseball is a religion. Sabermetrics is a science.

Felix

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Author: ramsfanray Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47787 of 51384
Subject: Re: The Triple Crown Is Nonsense Date: 10/5/2012 12:35 AM
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Sabermetrics is a science.

Kind of like phrenology.

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Author: bigbobboy Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47789 of 51384
Subject: Re: The Triple Crown Is Nonsense Date: 10/5/2012 9:05 AM
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To me Cabrara is the best hitter in baseball much like Ted Williams was thought of in his era. That said, I believe Trout is the better player (at least for one season since he is only a rookie). Without age consideration , I would take Trout to be on my team. MVP is a whole different matter. Art instead of science.

Robert

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47790 of 51384
Subject: Re: The Triple Crown Is Nonsense Date: 10/5/2012 9:48 AM
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This is why I know this guy is an idiot....

Let's go through the rest of the big three. The weakness of RBIs are obvious. It is very much a team-dependent stat. Certainly driving in runs is important, but it is very much a result of the number of times your teammates get on base.

You either score runs or drive them in. The name of the game is to score more runs than the opponent.

Of course, both scoring runs and driving them in a team-dependent. It's a team game. But if a guy is standing on third with less than two outs, did you drive them in or not? A single (or SF) at that juncture means more than a single with nobody on.

RBI is all about cashing in on the opportunity. Did you do it or not?

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Author: JustBarmin Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47791 of 51384
Subject: Re: The Triple Crown Is Nonsense Date: 10/5/2012 9:59 AM
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I was watching PTI yesterday and Jim, "Give 'em the heater Ricky" Leyland was on. He said that he was blown away at how much RBIs seem to be unimportant to these new age people. Ask any manager after a game about what went wrong or what he was upset about and he is always going to say, "left to many on base, couldn't bring the runner home." That is what it is all about, and he is right.

Miggy is the MVP and anything else is ridiculous.

If the question is sabermetrics vs even the biased opinion of Leyland, I'll take Leyland every time.

Curt

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Author: patchdodd Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47792 of 51384
Subject: Re: The Triple Crown Is Nonsense Date: 10/5/2012 10:05 AM
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Umm... Baseball is a religion. Sabermetrics is a science.


The point though is that it is cult-like behavior to rely on one metric to the exclusion of all others, which is precisely what the author did. He started with a decision that he wanted Trout for MVP and then worked backward. People do this all the time. Of course, this is not good science.

Yes, I live in Detroit. That said, I can't imagine not voting a Triple Crown winner MVP. I particularly can't imagine not voting a Triple Crown winner MVP when his closest competitor played for a more talented team in a much more talented lineup yet missed the post season.

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Author: bigbobboy Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47793 of 51384
Subject: Re: The Triple Crown Is Nonsense Date: 10/5/2012 10:23 AM
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I believe that Cabrara deserves the MVP. If Detroit had not made the post season my vote would have gone to Jeter.

Robert

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47794 of 51384
Subject: Re: The Triple Crown Is Nonsense Date: 10/5/2012 10:25 AM
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Umm... Baseball is a religion. Sabermetrics is a science.


The point though is that it is cult-like behavior to rely on one metric to the exclusion of all others, which is precisely what the author did. He started with a decision that he wanted Trout for MVP and then worked backward. People do this all the time. Of course, this is not good science.


I was just having fun.

These debates are great, a part of baseball. Who's better, Williams or DiMaggio? Mays or Aaron? Cabrera or Trout?

But I disagree about the conclusion, then evidence thing. The dispute is over the quality of evidence. The fact is that BA and RBI aren't very good measures (mainly because they were invented by a cricket writer who didnt really understand the game.) I disagree with the writer about HR. The stuff about extra bases is important though. A player who hits 100 singles and steals 30 bases is the same as a player who hits 70 singles and 30 doubles, maybe moreso since SB threats tend to help following batters.

Anyway, I too think Sabermaticians can be overly wonky and cultish, but so are traditionalists.


Yes, I live in Detroit. That said, I can't imagine not voting a Triple Crown winner MVP.

I live in Ann Arbor. Love Miggy. Hope he's MVP too. Think he will be. The triple Crown is a remarkable achievement. (I grew up worshipping Yaz.) But MVP is an opinion and I can see the argument for Trout too. I think won't get it though because baseball is ultimately a game of tradition, not simply stats, whether those stats are OBP and WHIP or BA and ERA.


I particularly can't imagine not voting a Triple Crown winner MVP when his closest competitor played for a more talented team in a much more talented lineup yet missed the post season.

I wouldn't worry about it. Cabrera willbe MVP. Trout Rookie of the Year.

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Author: patchdodd Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47796 of 51384
Subject: Re: The Triple Crown Is Nonsense Date: 10/5/2012 10:46 AM
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The fact is that BA and RBI aren't very good measures

Nonsense. There are merely better measures. Show me a guy who hits .330 and I will show you a good hitter, regardless of his secondary numbers. Show me a guy with 139 RBI and I will show you a good hitter regardless of how he got them.

Show me a .330 hitter with 139 RBI and I will show you Miguel Cabrera.

I live in Ann Arbor.

Shut the front door!

We totally need to get a beer one day. I want to tease you to your face about still posting at PA after a decade.

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Author: patchdodd Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47797 of 51384
Subject: Re: The Triple Crown Is Nonsense Date: 10/5/2012 10:51 AM
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I wouldn't worry about it. Cabrera willbe MVP.

Missed this. I'm no homer when it comes to post season awards. I am much more acutely aware of them when they involve home town guys of course, but for the most part I don't particularly care.

But yeah, I would/will be offended if Trout wins this year. Agreed that Jeter would be my second choice.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47801 of 51384
Subject: Re: The Triple Crown Is Nonsense Date: 10/5/2012 7:49 PM
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The fact is that BA and RBI aren't very good measures

Nonsense. There are merely better measures.


Right. That's a better way to put it.

Show me a guy who hits .330 and I will show you a good hitter, regardless of his secondary numbers.

Agree with that too. I was thinking comparatively. Show me two guys hitting .330 and ask me which one is better and I want to see OBP.

Show me a guy with 139 RBI and I will show you a good hitter regardless of how he got them.

We totally need to get a beer one day. I want to tease you to your face about still posting at PA after a decade.

Ouch.

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