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Author: brewer12345 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 5068  
Subject: There go the butterflies... Date: 12/1/2003 4:30 PM
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in my stomach. I have been interviewing for a new position and I just got a call to expect an offer tomorrow. It would be a promotion, a shorter commute, a stimulating job, and, I expect, a good deal more money, but I am a bit nervous now that I will have to make a decision. Currently, I am in a very stable job that I have no chance of losing. Its reasonably interesting, and I have been over the learning curve for some time, so I don't have to try too hard to do OK. However, the pay is under my market value and the promotion opportunities are less than stellar. I also find that I am in danger of the hobgoblin of my career (and life): I am getting bored. In the past, when I have gotten bored with a job, I have done, shall we say, less than my best work. Not a good outcome for me or my employer.

On the flip side, going to a new place would mean a fair bit of hard work, since I would have to come up to speed quickly with a new culture, boss, job, etc. It would also entail more risk than my current position, since the new employer is in less of an economic fortress.

Hopefully, they will put together an offer that will make the choice pretty much a no-brainer. In the mean time I will be fretting, I suppose, given that I am a natural born worrier (in that I can't easily let go of something important that is under consideration).
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Author: 96hokies Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1457 of 5068
Subject: Re: There go the butterflies... Date: 12/1/2003 5:13 PM
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Sounds very promising... I'm a "gets bored easily" type also. That along with the other perks you noted indicate this would be a good move, providing you get at least fair market salary for the position.

Rent a movie or do something this evening that will take your mind off of it. And at least sleep on the offer one night before responding.

96hokies


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Author: brewer12345 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1458 of 5068
Subject: Re: There go the butterflies... Date: 12/1/2003 5:15 PM
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Rent a movie or do something this evening that will take your mind off of it. And at least sleep on the offer one night before responding.

96hokies

*********************

Unfortunately, my wife is out of town, so I can't even really discuss it with her until tomorrow. I have to talk to the recruiter tonight, but after that I'm sure a couple of beers will go a long way toward helping me sleep.

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Author: HaltCatchFire Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1465 of 5068
Subject: Re: There go the butterflies... Date: 12/2/2003 12:58 PM
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Currently, I am in a very stable job that I have no chance of losing.

No one's job is secure anymore. If that's the only reason you're staying in your current position, I'd listen very carefully to what the recruiter has to say.

Regards,

- HCF


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Author: brewer12345 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1466 of 5068
Subject: Re: There go the butterflies... Date: 12/2/2003 1:02 PM
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No one's job is secure anymore. If that's the only reason you're staying in your current position, I'd listen very carefully to what the recruiter has to say.

*****************

Nah, that's not the only reason, just that it is a practical consideration when considering an alternative. I got a peek at the offer (not actually presented yet, just advance intelligence from the recruiter) and it isn't that much of a bump. We'll see what actually gets put in from of me, but they are definately gonna have to do better than that to get me to hop.

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Author: SloanT Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1467 of 5068
Subject: Re: There go the butterflies... Date: 12/2/2003 1:26 PM
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Brewer:In the mean time I will be fretting, I suppose…

I'm with ya, buddy. This morning I completed the last of my four interviews for business schools. Now I have to play the waiting game. If I'm lucky, I'll hear from one or two of the schools by Christmas. For the other two I will have to wait until January 21st. Ugh…

50 days and counting…

st


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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1468 of 5068
Subject: Re: There go the butterflies... Date: 12/2/2003 1:53 PM
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". I got a peek at the offer (not actually presented yet, just advance intelligence from the recruiter) and it isn't that much of a bump. We'll see what actually gets put in from of me, but they are definately gonna have to do better than that to get me to hop. "


There is a lot to be said for being challenged. There is also a lot to be said against a position that you can not see growth in. There is not much room at the top of an employment in my experience. It is either going uphill or going downhill, the glide is usually short lived, unless you can see another peak somewhere, I would advise serious caution!

Taking a new job with challenges also means potential growth, growth often means more $$$, more reposnsibility etc. I made a lateral move in my career a while ago, it payed off pretty well.

Unless you are talking a government job, or a corporate job vs a startup, be careful of the weight you assign to security.

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Author: brewer12345 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1470 of 5068
Subject: Re: There go the butterflies... Date: 12/2/2003 2:27 PM
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Taking a new job with challenges also means potential growth, growth often means more $$$, more reposnsibility etc.

*********************

That's all fine and good, but A) I would be walking away from a fairly good-sized chunk of cash to take this job (bonus a few months out plus stuff that will vest in about a year) and B) if I take this I give up the option value of being able to hop for at least a couple of years, and the upturn in the labor market could make this costly. Both of these are significant, and the current package in front of me is not enough to overcome these issues.

I suspect that we are too far apart to meet, but I will see what I can get by shaking the tree.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1471 of 5068
Subject: Re: There go the butterflies... Date: 12/2/2003 3:23 PM
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"if I take this I give up the option value of being able to hop for at least a couple of years, and the upturn in the labor market could make this costly"


As always it is a balancing act. If you think it is a real opportunity to grow, you may be giving away a lot more long term than what you have short term as gain. How much growth are you willing to trade for how many bucks.

Obviously, I have no clue what kind of money you are talking about walking away from, nor do I know the opportunity at your current employer, or the amount of opportunity in your particualr field, and all are factors.

Personally, though an optimist in general, I am not placing any bets on where the economy will be in 12-24 months. Opportunity costs are potentially quite high. The one thing I would not factor overly high is the concern about churning employers, this has lost a great deal of its stigma; however, if you are already looking for your next next job before you take your next job, make sure you put together a career plan for yourself, if you haven't already. This is one of those items I never did personally and I still kick myself over it, I'm certainly doing OK, but had I planned my moves a little more rather than moving from good to what looked better, I would be in a better place.

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Author: brewer12345 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1472 of 5068
Subject: Re: There go the butterflies... Date: 12/2/2003 4:07 PM
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Personally, though an optimist in general, I am not placing any bets on where the economy will be in 12-24 months.

*************************

Hmmm, well, I am not necessarily an optimist, but as an investor I am definately placing bets on where the economy will be in 12 to 24 months. Implicitly, I am also doing so as a worker. I am pretty certain that the US economy is clearly on the mend and that within 12 to 24 months employers will really have to start hiring strongly again in order to keep up with demand.

As far as growth goes, I think that the bird in hand is less attractive than the two in the bush, but its hard to be sure what the real growth opportunities are with the new place. I was hoping that the comp would make it easier to make a leap of faith, but it appears that this is not the case.

If nothing else, this whole exercise has helped me think about what I want out of my career at this point. If I'm lucky, I'll be able to bridge the comp gap, but I'm certainly not going to wish upon a star here.

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Author: nmckay Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1473 of 5068
Subject: Re: There go the butterflies... Date: 12/2/2003 4:32 PM
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I'm a natural born sucker for what's behind door number two so I'd go for it. It's sorta like TV. I don't care what's on as much as I care what else is on.

Don't worry too much about job hopping. And you can negotiate your bonus into the new deal, either by waiting to go work for them or as a signing bonus. Let them know the situation.

The new company sounds pretty smart. They're doing some recruiting now while everyone's still disgruntled and itching to jump ship. In a few months, things will begin to improve and they'll have to pay more to poach people like yourself. Very savvy.

Personally, I'll jump for 15% or more. No problem. Amounts less than that require some deliberation. Make sure you know the benefits and vesting time for options, 401K, etc. Ask about all that stuff and anything else you can think of. Otherwise, you could be surprised. I've made that mistake before.

And don't be nervous. You have a job. You can say no and go back to work. No harm, no foul. You are in a very good negotiating position. You can solve the recruiter's problem (filling the position), but you don't have to. Nice position to be in.

nmckay
fwiw

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Author: brewer12345 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1474 of 5068
Subject: Re: There go the butterflies... Date: 12/2/2003 4:42 PM
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Personally, I'll jump for 15% or more. No problem. Amounts less than that require some deliberation. Make sure you know the benefits and vesting time for options, 401K, etc. Ask about all that stuff and anything else you can think of. Otherwise, you could be surprised. I've made that mistake before.


********************

They are about in the 20 to 25% range in terms of the boost, but the dough I am walking away from pretty much eats up the entire increase for at least a year. We'll see what happens, but I would minimally need them to bridge the gap on that one.

As far as where I am, well, I guess I can't help but wonder if I won't be kicking myself if I don't jump on this despite the comp issues. Its a little hard to remember that I am in the driver's seat, since now that the offer is on the table, both the recruiter and the potential employer are looking to close the sale. I think that what I need to do is dig my heels in and draw the line. There are a lot of positives to the job (boss, culture, challenges, etc.), but money is definately important, I'm not in a terrible spot right now, and there are an awful lot of fish in the sea. I just have to keep reminding myself of this.

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Author: foolkath Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1475 of 5068
Subject: Re: There go the butterflies... Date: 12/2/2003 10:51 PM
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I agree with low student. If it is GOOD, stay with it.

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Author: brewer12345 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1476 of 5068
Subject: Re: There go the butterflies... Date: 12/3/2003 2:58 PM
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Hmmm, round two now. They made an offer, I told the recruiter it wasn't good enough, so he got them to come up. It still isn't hitting my "magic number", so I said no once again. The recruiter is now going back to them a second time, but I get the sense that we are getting into pretty unlikely territory here.

Ultimately, if they don't get to where I need to be, I am cool with walking away. I already have a decent job, and there are plenty of fish in the sea. We will have to see. Either way, I'll be plenty happy when this is settled one way or the other, since it is quite stressful.

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Author: nmckay Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1477 of 5068
Subject: Re: There go the butterflies... Date: 12/3/2003 4:03 PM
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I guess I don't see the stressful part. You get more money or you stay put in a job you're comfortable with. We should all have such problems.

nmckay

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Author: brewer12345 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1478 of 5068
Subject: Re: There go the butterflies... Date: 12/3/2003 4:12 PM
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I guess I don't see the stressful part.

***************

I sweat it out every time I make a large dollar decision, whether career related or in my portfolio. I usually manage to remain cool and logical enough to make good decisions, but it still takes an emotional toll. It helps to read things like your post, though.

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Author: 96hokies Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1479 of 5068
Subject: Re: There go the butterflies... Date: 12/3/2003 6:05 PM
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Did you give your recruiter the "magic number" otherwise the company is flyin blind and since they didn't already exceed it you aren't really showing all your cards. If it will take $X for you to accept then tell your recruiter that.

96hokies

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