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This is a false argument, "how do illegal immigrants get to vote". This is not a short-term game. First, illegal immigrants are counted as population in the census for purpose of allocating representatives in Congress and also for receipt of government funds.

Second, it is the intent, and you will see it happen, starts out for school board, moves to city and so on, like every other thing the Left tries, is to argue "they pay taxes, so they should have the right to vote." Never mind the fact that if I pay taxes working in France I still won't have the right to vote in France.


OK, let’s remember that the ability for non-citizens to “vote” in San Francisco has several hurdles. First, you still have to register. And your must show proof that you have a child in the school system. And that you are only allowed to vote for member of the school board, not the full ballot. Not even half the ballot. Not in the party primaries, not in the general, not for anything but school board.

(Incidentally, the French have a system which pairs abstentionistas with immigrants so that they can vote in elections, right up to the top of the ballot. Significantly greater voting ability, I would say.)

Yes, iummiugrants are counted as population in the census, assuming the census finds them which is not always true. And economic studies have shown that immigrants are better for the tax system than citizens, that is they pay more taxes and use fewer services, but that’s just a side note, and one which Righties can’t seem to wrap their heads around.

Now. As for your “You will see it happen”, well, it hasn’t happened. I’m not sure how you think it *will* happen since it has ever happened in the history of the republic, but this is another instance of little girls running around claiming the most outrageous things in defense of a modestly thoughtful position. It’s like “if you outlaw AR-15s then the next thing is that you won’t be able to own any guns at all, even a cap gun!”. It follows right along with “If you institute Social Security then the entire country will become a socialist hell hole” and “Don’t put a regulation on the poor banks, heaven knows any more protections for people and they won’t be able to make record profits. Again.”

Phooey. I may or may not agree with allowing non-citizens parents to have some say in the education of their children, but the idea that it’s some stalking horse so that millions of undocumented immigrants can vote against the Orange bloviator in the next Presidential election is so absurd as to merit immediate dismissal. Of course he’s already made that charge about the LAST election, so it appears that truth and common sense are already in their dying gasps.
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Very true Denny.

What I find most disgusting about leftists is that are literally cheering on America's failure.....actually desperately wanting failure in Korea, China, etc.

They got us in this mess and yet they promulgate false narratives to purposely weaken America.....truly disgusting behavior from leftists.....never to be trusted again...ever.
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literally cheering on America's failure

That kind of stupid characterization is a big reason why it is not possible to have a reasonable discussion with you.
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<<<That kind of stupid characterization is a big reason why it is not possible to have a reasonable discussion with you.>>>

We know you are for open borders, despite your saying you are not. How do we know that? You will not answer the simple question on how we minimize illegal immigration over the southern border with any credible real world policy.

That is because the Democratic talking points are such that nothing should be done except some movement of the lip to feign you would do something and then articulating nothing you would do.

In regard to America failing, seems your position is the same, as every success is laden with supporting the "animals" like MS13, or whomever is against Trump. Even this one cannot give Trump credit for. Even lowering tariffs with China, because this one element is not ALL elements and is not a 100% victory, is met with scorn and derision.

I believe you are accurate, but the problem is your side refuses to say what they really mean, because if they did no one would vote for your side. Which is of course why your side is trying to import a whole new generation of voters coming through the southern border.

Tinker
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We know you are for open borders, despite your saying you are not.

I.e., you think you know what I believe better than I do. What chutzpah!

Which is of course why your side is trying to import a whole new generation of voters coming through the southern border.

This sort of remark is one of the sillier sort Rightists make. Citizens vote, not immigrants who have yet to become citizens, even if legal immigrants. Not to mention, of course, that the number of illegal immigrants in this country from the south is not actually going up.

There were 5.6 million Mexican unauthorized immigrants living in the U.S. in 2015 and 2016, down from 6.4 million in 2009.
And that is from Pew Research, not some suspicious source.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/27/5-facts-abou...
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Tam:

Why are you relentlessly posting nonsensical leftist ideological posts and never anything of any value from an investment perspective and yet go around disparaging the NPI for what you have caused?

Why can you not see the utter reprehensible hypocrisy in that?
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Any political post I post here is a *response* to one that you or someone else has posted, so I am not the one causing there to be political posts on this board.
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Tamhas, give me your solution to minimize illegal immigration on the southern border. You avoid this question perpetually and yet say you are not for open borders.

Words are meaningless w out actions that flow from them. So,if you think illegal immigration should be minimized across the border, then how so? What is your credible solution, and don’t say “comprehensive”immigration reform, which is a euphemism for open borders. How would you minimize this illegal immigration across our southern border?

Tinker
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We have farms, restaurants and motels/inns closing or limiting activity due to lack of workers right now in Vacationland, with Summer coming. We need more people. And a little enterprise called Social Security would appreciate a few more contributors. And get this - there's A LOTTERY for seasonal worker permits.
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> The radicals of both parties were, if not expelled, shed to form radical micro parties.

Except the right was moving far to the right before Obama even became a senator.
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Without Obama there would be no Trump!
==========================================
We got Trump, not because of Obama, and probably not because of the Russians, either.
We got Trump because:
1. Too many Republicans ran for president. Seventeen of them! They couldn't even get all the candidates on stage for the debates. And Republican primary voters, not being able to identify or figure out who the smart ones were, voted for the class clown with the loudest voice. And even then, Trump never got a majority vote in a primary election.
2. Not enough Democrats ran. There wasn't a serious Democratic challenger to Hillary Clinton. Too many people just expected her to take it by default. And she never fails to live up to expectations. Bernie Sanders was the best organized, and he wasn't even a Democrat.
3. The system broke - again. HILLARY WON the popular vote, and lost anyway. This has to get fixed.

Bill
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The Venezuelan economic crisis got worse and the next winner was... Hugo Chavez.

Without Obama there would be no Trump!

Victor D. Hanson: How the Obama Presidency Destroyed Todays Democratic Party


Denny,

it's not the Democratic Party that went it insane during the Obama presidency, it's the Republican Party.
It birthed Trump. If the Obama presidency destroyed one of the parties, it's the GOP. Or rather, the GOP destroyed itself during that time.
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We know you are for open borders,


Only insane people are for open borders.
Consider that it would probably cost around 10 dollars per passenger to ship people from Africa to the US in bulk and offload them in NY harbor.

If the US declared open borders, many millions of impoverished, uneducated people would flood into the US every year until conditions in the US become so horrible that moving there from the Democratic Republic of Congo isn't a noticeable improvement.
Borders are always porous to some degree (that applies even for North Korea!).
Just because someone doesn't want to employ drastic (and expensive) measures to reduce illegal immigration from its current (historically relatively low) level doesn't mean they're for "open borders", which is an entirely different thing.

What many/most Democrats (well, establishment Democrats, anyway) are generally for - as apparently are many/most Republicans (well, establishment Republicans, anyway) - is the status quo on immigration (the status quo before Trump).

I'd argue that the working class in the US would benefit from somewhat tighter restrictions, that's my personal position on the issue.
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How Bush Destroyed the Republican Party. Well (-39%) on the SP 500 for starters.

No wonder Trumpites/ serious investors like Denny are such fans. Find a link and post it.

Obama destroyed the party so badly that Hillary +3 million votes. Unless Denny agrees with the standard Trumpite claim that US elections are more rigged than any Venezuelan election. Millions of illegal voters!

Good news there at HOGG. Ryan country. Predicted and predictable. Even Denny must be tired of winning by now. Hilarious and SAD! :)
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> The radicals of both parties were, if not expelled, shed to form radical micro parties.

Except the right was moving far to the right before Obama even became a senator.


Just to clear that up, the statement about the "radicals of both parties" was about the Venezuelan centrist parties. The original said:

The same was true of the two major Venezuelan parties and they too alternated. The radicals of both parties were, if not expelled, shed to form radical micro parties.

http://boards.fool.com/how-obama-destroyed-the-democratic-pa...

Denny Schlesinger
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You got to love the inconsistency..

1. Too many Republicans ran for president.
2. Not enough Democrats ran.


and

3. The system broke - again. HILLARY WON the popular vote, and lost anyway. This has to get fixed.

The system worked as designed. The losers in our cruising boat races also wanted to change the rules mid race. LOL

Denny Schlesinger
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it's not the Democratic Party that went it insane during the Obama presidency, it's the Republican Party.
It birthed Trump. If the Obama presidency destroyed one of the parties, it's the GOP. Or rather, the GOP destroyed itself during that time.



AD: Yes, the Republican Party went "insane" and took the presidency and many executive and legislative bodies from the Democrats. That's what Hanson means by "destroying the Democratic party." The Dems "LOST!" All the noise you now hear from the Left are the extremists up in arms about losing.

Most people, the silent majority, are mostly centrists who just want to get on with their lives. The noise comes from the extremes, right and left. But rile up the center enough and you get them to do something about it. Chavez got elected by people who had no business voting for him. The reason they did was the economic disaster the centrist parties wrought. People figured that Chavez would be like electing our last military dictator, Marcos Perez Jiminez, who was a patriot, not a scoundrel.

Hanson's point is that Obama riled up the silent center. What came out of it was not foreseeable. The Republicans had been scraping the bottom of the barrel looking for candidates for decades. A non-establishment populist won the day with emphasis on "non-establishment." Non of this was foreseeable, what Hanson is pointing out is that Obama's dragging the Democrats to the extreme left was the trigger for it happening.

"Without Obama there would be no Trump!" is just an encapsulation of the above.

Denny Schlesinger



PS: Safari's spelling checker is on the blink after I tried adding an English-German translating dictionary (which I have since removed). Anyone know how to set it right?
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AD: Yes, the Republican Party went "insane" and took the presidency and many executive and legislative bodies from the Democrats


Yes. They did that by whipping up a frenzy of hatred and sabotaging the functioning of government.
Then, their radicalized base voted for Trump, much to their horror.

Of course Trump abandoned policymaking mostly to the GOP establishment, so it's all tax cuts for the rich and favors for big donors, as usual. I suppose it all turned out fine after all, right?
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What I find most disgusting about leftists is that are literally cheering on America's failure.....actually desperately wanting failure in Korea, China, etc.

I don't know what you mean by leftists. What I do know is anyone with an IQ higher than plant life knows that Trump is an incompetent clown.

Obama took the country from the second worst financial crisis in a century, and created eight years of economic growth and a huge increase in the market. Trump has killed the Obama bull.

Sick of all the wins.
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Yes. They did that by whipping up a frenzy of hatred and sabotaging the functioning of government.
Then, their radicalized base voted for Trump, much to their horror.


You can led a horse to water... but you can't make him see the light... LOL

Denny Schlesinger
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You can led a horse to water... but you can't make him see the light... LOL

Denny,

do you really think that the developments in the political system of the US over the last 10 years can be summed up as "GOP holds most states, White House, Senate and Congress"? Is that really the only thing you think matters? Because that can (and will likely) end within an election or two.
But after the GOP loses its majorities, it will still be insane. That won't change so easily.
A very high price for a temporary victory.
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This has to get fixed. it's not broken, it is working just as it was supposed to. There are only a few really big states, so the chances of changing this part of the Constitution are zero.
note original poster on ignore.
Of course if you are an all out loonie lefty, the supreme law of the land is just an annoyance, an obstacle in the way of a dictatorial people's state. With you as an elite ,deciding everything for the people, not coincidently getting richer and more powerful on the way.
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"I'd argue that the working class in the US would benefit from somewhat tighter restrictions"

Our demographics data show that the gross number of jobs in Maine will decline over the next 20 years. At that time there will be a massive labor shortage. While that may temporarily benefit the working class, the ultimate result is probably that the economy contracts to the degree that the labor shortfalls cannot be mitigated by technology.

Already we hear of GPS guided devices to replace farm workers for crops that have always be harvested by people, not robots. The great manufacturing revival of the Midwest is mostly robots.
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" it's not broken, it is working just as it was supposed to. "

Actually, Mauser, the Constitution does not specify how the Electors shall be chosen, although the SCOTUS has ruled there is an implicit right to a democracy in the states.

And a number of states have now enacted a law to require their Presidential Electors to be pledged to the individual who receives the largest popular vote in the country, to be effective in any year where the electoral votes of the states with such laws equals or exceeds the electoral votes necessary to elect a President. The interstate compact has passed in enough states to be over 60% of the way to effective, and is reintroduced in the other states repeatedly.

The moment of truth may come by 2020, more likely after. But it seems to be coming.
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You will not answer the simple question on how we minimize illegal immigration over the southern border with any credible real world policy.

I’ve answered it a hundred times. You make businesses responsible for vetting their employees, and you fine them substantially for a pattern of abuse. If a guy owns a Subway shop and hires an illegal and is found, he gets maybe a $100 fine. Maybe $50, it doesn’t matter. $250 on the second instance. $500 on the third, and so on.

If Tyson food is found to have hired hundreds or thousands, they face fines in the millions. Very quickly the market will set up a mechanism to assure that illegals are not being hired, and companies will subscribe to support it, or they will face the consequences for not doing so.

However Republicans don’t want to put any onus on their corporate overlords, so somehow this simple idea never gets farther than the suggestion box. They’d rather rant and rave and have a convenient enemy and claim that “millions are voting illegally” which is a great sound bite. 100% false, of course, but why should that matter?

PS: Illegal immigration has been going down steadily, year over year, every year since it peaked in the early 2000’s. Mexico’s and the Central American economies have improved, lending fewer incentives to illegal migration, the border has - contrary to your so-called news sources - been tightened dramatically, with more patrols, more surveillance, and more enforcement.

There are bigger problems, but you can’t convince the Righties. I guess once prices for their lettuce, tomatoes and oranges start to skyrockets because farm labor can’t be found at any price among “true” Americans, they will start to notice. Of course that will require Fox News to notice and to report, so I don’t hold a lot of hope.
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Proof that both sides are blowing hot air: E-Verify https://www.e-verify.gov

The system to verify legal employment status is already in place, and is a free service offered by the Feds. Problem is, it's voluntary. There's no reason to waste billions on a wall when the vast majority of illegal immigration can be solved by making E-Verify mandatory. Saves money and is far more effective.

Dems are willing to waste billions by offering services and protections to undocumented residents in order to secure votes, and Repubs are willing to waste billions by building a useless wall in order to secure votes.

Politicians aren't in the business of providing real world solutions, just pandering to secure their own jobs and pocket books. Cynical, I know.
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How do "undocumented residents" get to vote ?
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Denny,

do you really think that the developments in the political system of the US over the last 10 years can be summed up as "GOP holds most states, White House, Senate and Congress"? Is that really the only thing you think matters? Because that can (and will likely) end within an election or two.
But after the GOP loses its majorities, it will still be insane. That won't change so easily.
That won't change so easily.


Let's take this apart to make sense of it.


do you really think that the developments in the political system of the US over the last 10 years can be summed up as "GOP holds most states, White House, Senate and Congress"?

Yes.

Is that really the only thing you think matters?

No.

Because that can (and will likely) end within an election or two.

Yes, that's what happens in democracies.

But after the GOP loses its majorities, it will still be insane.

That is a matter of opinon, your opinion.

That won't change so easily.

On what scale does one measure "easily?" And it still is a matter of opinion, your opinion.

That won't change so easily.

More opinion.

Now that we have taken that appart, you are talking about the future changing things. That's an easy prediction to make. But you have made not a single statemet that negates what Hanson said, Obama, by driving the Democratic party to the left, lost the elections (presidential, gubernatorial, and legislteive) to the GOP, hurting the Democratic party.

Joseph Schumpeter said that liberal democracy is about getting elected. Losing elections is a bad thing and that's what Obama did for the Democratic party.

What happens next, happens next, but that does not change what has happened.

I think we have thrashed this horse to death. ;)

Denny Schlesinger
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ML: How do "undocumented residents" get to vote ?

See https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/SF-g...

SF gave undocumented immigrants voting rights. Now it’s worried about ICE

It's quite useful if you have a good mushy progressive group like the air heads in SF, CA. Pelosi country. You know, this is where a jury decided that it's quite okay** for an illegal, who had been deported MULTIPLE times, shoot a young woman in the back while she was enjoying a day with her dad.

(**"After all, he didn't really MEAN to shoot her!")
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Hitting (literally) close to home there BrerBear :) Small point of contention: undocumented immigrants can only vote in local school board elections (still one election too many, imho).
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How do "undocumented residents" get to vote ?

Last week I had to renew my DL.
I went to the DMV and was directed to a PC where I filled out all my info and answered a few questions. On the 3rd or 4th page it asked if I wanted to register to vote. I'm already registered but I looked through the questions. Basically it just asks you to click to confirm that you are a US citizen.
After this step you wait then go to a clerk who verifies your info. Since I was getting a "Real ID" I had to bring in multiple IDs (passport, SS card, utility bill, for example). But if I wasn't getting this all I would need is my previous DL or DMV ID. As I understand it, undocumented immigrants get an ID with some clear marking on it. It is probably not too difficult to get a fake ID from another state or some other fake ID. How hard can it be to get a fake birth certificate?

I'm NOT saying that I think a lot of people do this or try to do it. But it doesn't seem too difficult. I think most illegal immigrants wouldn't want to risk getting caught and deported and would rather live here and not vote.
But if you get caught with a fake birth certificate you just say this is what my parents told me. I have no idea where I was born.
Does the DMV really do a background check on every person registering to vote?

But more than zero people are probably trying this.

Mike
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There are bigger problems, but you can’t convince the Righties. I guess once prices for their lettuce, tomatoes and oranges start to skyrockets because farm labor can’t be found at any price among “true” Americans, they will start to notice. Of course that will require Fox News to notice and to report, so I don’t hold a lot of hope.

There was an interesting Planet Money podcast on this topic earlier this month. They talked with farmer in California who pays his farm workers $21/hour and still can't find enough labor.

Over the past few years, he's shifted from growing labor-intensive crops like tomatoes and strawberries, as well as moving some of his operations to Mexico.

Correct. Yeah. I mean, basically the fact of the matter is is that a foreign-born person is going to be harvesting your fruits and vegetables, so the decision is do we want to do that within the United States with a guest worker program or do we want to have that foreign-born worker stay in his country and harvest your fruits and vegetables? So based on what we've seen in the political environment over the last 15 and 20 years, we have decided to go down there into Mexico.

https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?stor...
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This is a false argument, "how do illegal immigrants get to vote". This is not a short-term game. First, illegal immigrants are counted as population in the census for purpose of allocating representatives in Congress and also for receipt of government funds.

Second, it is the intent, and you will see it happen, starts out for school board, moves to city and so on, like every other thing the Left tries, is to argue "they pay taxes, so they should have the right to vote." Never mind the fact that if I pay taxes working in France I still won't have the right to vote in France.

It is the future push to legalize and thus make all illegal immigrants without a violent felony on their record (And even this condition is doubtful these days if that would even be included) to be eligible to vote.

It is as simple as that. But the Left is never honest with their intentions.

Tinker
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<<<Correct. Yeah. I mean, basically the fact of the matter is is that a foreign-born person is going to be harvesting your fruits and vegetables, so the decision is do we want to do that within the United States with a guest worker program or do we want to have that foreign-born worker stay in his country and harvest your fruits and vegetables? So based on what we've seen in the political environment over the last 15 and 20 years, we have decided to go down there into Mexico.>>.

You know, this is a false argument as well. Trump offered a larger "Dreamer" program than Obama wanted. All he asked for in return was common sense immigration reforms so we could close the open border in the south.

If we can control our border, if we can return illegal immigrants, then we can do "comprehensive" immigration reform with guest workers and the like.

But without that, all these "guest" worker bills are a farce, as we have plenty of guest workers as they come and go as they please over our border with few consequences.

Give us border control, and common sense immigration reforms, and we will gladly create reasonable guest worker programs. But it is not going to happen. The Democratic party will never allow Trump to get credit for this. NEVER. Not anymore than they would allow (if they could stop it) a black Republican (man or woman) to be president. It would be the dirtiest election in modern history (and that is saying something). Look how they attacked Palin. Not just Palin but her entire family including children.

Not difficult to see the real motivation behind these things.

Tinker
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SYKES6 posted: "Over the past few years, he's shifted from growing labor-intensive crops like tomatoes and strawberries, as well as moving some of his operations to Mexico.

Correct. Yeah. I mean, basically the fact of the matter is is that a foreign-born person is going to be harvesting your fruits and vegetables, so the decision is do we want to do that within the United States with a guest worker program or do we want to have that foreign-born worker stay in his country and harvest your fruits and vegetables? So based on what we've seen in the political environment over the last 15 and 20 years, we have decided to go down there into Mexico. "


Not sure I believe this, I was very interested in an agricultural operation in Mexico. Went on a visit there in February. I found I would have to be minority owner and a Mexican national would need to own at least 51%. I do not trust the government or the legal system enough to risk my hard earned money there.

Our area which is mainly, agriculture, commercial fishing, and forest products. One of the core values is that there is honor and dignity in all work that is done well. There are two classes of people, those that work and those that could but don't. Race does not seem to matter. If able bodied people that do not work were not given such generous government benefits then there would be less of a labor shortage.
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This is a false argument, "how do illegal immigrants get to vote". This is not a short-term game. First, illegal immigrants are counted as population in the census for purpose of allocating representatives in Congress and also for receipt of government funds.

Second, it is the intent, and you will see it happen, starts out for school board, moves to city and so on, like every other thing the Left tries, is to argue "they pay taxes, so they should have the right to vote." Never mind the fact that if I pay taxes working in France I still won't have the right to vote in France.


OK, let’s remember that the ability for non-citizens to “vote” in San Francisco has several hurdles. First, you still have to register. And your must show proof that you have a child in the school system. And that you are only allowed to vote for member of the school board, not the full ballot. Not even half the ballot. Not in the party primaries, not in the general, not for anything but school board.

(Incidentally, the French have a system which pairs abstentionistas with immigrants so that they can vote in elections, right up to the top of the ballot. Significantly greater voting ability, I would say.)

Yes, iummiugrants are counted as population in the census, assuming the census finds them which is not always true. And economic studies have shown that immigrants are better for the tax system than citizens, that is they pay more taxes and use fewer services, but that’s just a side note, and one which Righties can’t seem to wrap their heads around.

Now. As for your “You will see it happen”, well, it hasn’t happened. I’m not sure how you think it *will* happen since it has ever happened in the history of the republic, but this is another instance of little girls running around claiming the most outrageous things in defense of a modestly thoughtful position. It’s like “if you outlaw AR-15s then the next thing is that you won’t be able to own any guns at all, even a cap gun!”. It follows right along with “If you institute Social Security then the entire country will become a socialist hell hole” and “Don’t put a regulation on the poor banks, heaven knows any more protections for people and they won’t be able to make record profits. Again.”

Phooey. I may or may not agree with allowing non-citizens parents to have some say in the education of their children, but the idea that it’s some stalking horse so that millions of undocumented immigrants can vote against the Orange bloviator in the next Presidential election is so absurd as to merit immediate dismissal. Of course he’s already made that charge about the LAST election, so it appears that truth and common sense are already in their dying gasps.
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Come now Tinker. As a Democrat, I belong to no organized political party.

This is the camel's nose under the tent flap, and your next post is the parade of horribles. I've argued this way many times, but only when I have no facts to work with.

"Protection" from "illegal immigrants" has a long, racially and ethnically discriminatory based, disgusting and low brow history. Without such, America did fine. With it, still fine. If the proverbial walls of Jericho fall, something may happen, but nothing will knock us off a good path. We should be trying to understand what would happen - good and bad - if we abandoned this nonsense of birth police. I'm pretty sure they can't vote in state elections unless the state says so, and in federal unless a citizen.

It's not an answer to dealing with what all agree is good - DACA - by whining that action is contingent on agreement on crappy ideas like the wall. It's still opposition.
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SF gave undocumented immigrants voting rights.

For LOCAL elections. They are clearly delimited and cannot vote in larger scope elections.
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Trump offered

And then reneged. Trump never stood by any of his Dreamer pronouncements. By the time the next pronouncement came, the rules had changed.

Kind of like rashly agreeing to meet Kim without any investigation and background and then pulling out of the meeting in a snit while a pile of foreign journalists were in North Korea in a very vulnerable position. What a joke!
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>>> The radicals of both parties were, if not expelled, shed to form radical micro parties.

>> Except the right was moving far to the right before Obama even became a senator.

> Just to clear that up, the statement about the "radicals of both parties" was about the Venezuelan centrist parties. The original said:

Sorry for missing the context.

Thank you for providing context.
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Thank you for providing context.

My pleasure!

Denny Schlesinger
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GH: OK, let’s remember that the ability for non-citizens to “vote” in San Francisco has several hurdles. First, you still have to register. And your must show proof that you have a child in the school system. And that you are only allowed to vote for member of the school board, not the full ballot. Not even half the ballot. Not in the party primaries, not in the general, not for anything but school board.

Gosh, golly, gee whiz, I GUESS I MISSED THAT CRITICAL PART! Shame on me; in that we all know that illegals, as a group, have such a great record of compliance with the law, such oversight on my part is totally unjustified. So, let illegals into the polling place; we KNOW from past history that the law will be complied with EXPLICITLY, to the letter.

Must be old age here, but you gotta color me skeptical.
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in that we all know that illegals, as a group, have such a great record of compliance with the law

Actually, we *do* know that they are significantly more law abiding than citizens.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/06/19/two-c...
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Tamhas you really think we are stupid.

Fox allowed into the hen house but only allowed to take one egg and watch.

Hey wait, council members allocate education funds so they need right to vote in city elections...err State Dept of Education...Federak Department of Education.

We all know what this is. Another case of selective outrage, false news, lying about who and what you are.

There is only my consistent trait and that is you guys lie and do anything to get your way. Why even continue the pretense.

You want open borders, you want citizenship to mean nothing, and you want an entire new underclass of voters because Democrats cannot won otherwise. Oh yes you also want these people (who are clearly superior human beings to citizens - younjust said it they are far more honest than American citizens who should be treated as second class) TO VOTE the entire ballot.

It is not even a thin veneer disguising this anymore. So why continue to lie about it?

Tinker
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Tinker:

Why do you exchange with tam and expect any different outcome besides willful leftist ideological talking points???

The fact that illegals are responsible for more crime is contained in an FBI report.....it simply is.

And the very first crime thay committed was coming here illegally. I also doubt that these pseudo-confirmation bias factoid type studies that tam will throw out have any merit.....are very flawed by not having good data on how many there are.....not the absolute crime numbers but the % crime in the illegal population......the denominator not against the total population but against the total illegal population.

The FBI has clearly stated it is a real problem.....violent crime from illegals....drugs, etc.......and I don’t care if it is even 1......that is 1 too many.

Secure the boarders and stop this stupidity of open boarders that destroys us in so many ways
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Tamhas you really think we are stupid.

Tinker, you clearly are far from stupid ... but that doesn't mean that you don't have times and subjects where emotions carry more weight than thinking.

Fox allowed into the hen house but only allowed to take one egg and watch.

The mistake here is the assumption that undocumented immigrants = "fox". This is a milder version of Trump's "infest". The point is that this is not a group of nasty, scheming people trying to take over your world, but rather just some people who are hoping to make their own life better. Perhaps they commit less crime than citizens simply because the consequences of getting caught may include deportation, but whatever the reason, this is not a band of criminals.

Not to mention that the right's whole notion of the prevalence of election fraud is nonsense.

There is only my consistent trait and that is you guys lie and do anything to get your way.

Seems to me that you are pointing the finger in the wrong direction here. There was a statement implying that we could expect that people granted a limited right to vote under this program would abuse that privilege and I supplied a reference that demonstrates that undocumented immigrants are actually significantly more law abiding than citizens. If anything there is a lie it is the undocumented assumption that these people are inclined to criminal behavior.

You want open borders, you want citizenship to mean nothing, and you want an entire new underclass of voters because Democrats cannot won otherwise.

Speaking of lies, none of that is true. No one is arguing for open borders. Arrests for border crossing on the southern border are at a 46 year low. There is no big surge. Moreover, the current problem with the border is with asylum seekers, who aren't even "illegal" immigrants, but rather refugees who are *asking* to be admitted. They are being treated as criminals, but have broken no law, merely having exercised their right to ask for asylum.

And this business of thinking that the Democratic position on this issue has to do with adding voters is just plain nonsense. At best, these people have years and years before they would be entitled to vote. Mind you, if any of the current lot do eventually get to vote, I wouldn't be surprised if they remembered who took their kids away.
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The fact that illegals are responsible for more crime is contained in an FBI report.....it simply is.

If there is such a report, produce a link to it. If not, we can assume that you made it up.

And the very first crime thay committed was coming here illegally.

The current border crises is NOT people who came here illegally. It is people who came here legally and petitioned for asylum. In some cases they may have crossed somewhere other than a point of entry, which is not the correct procedure, but then what are they supposed to do when border patrol turns them back at the point of entry?

And, the drugs and such which is the focus of all this noise has nothing to do with a parent and a child coming to the border and asking for asylum. It has to do with organized crime figures on both sides of the border using truck, planes, boats and the like to ship large volumes of drugs across the border. I.e., totally different group; totally different issue.

As for securing the border, it seems like a 46 year low must mean we are doing that pretty well.
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See Timker......extremist leftists defend the indefensible!..........citizens are the problem.....not the illegals???

Truly pitiful and yet another reason why America cannot let them back in power......ever!

Let’s look at what there FBI actually said:

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017/06/20/fbi-ms-13-violent-...

MS-13 is not the largest street gang in the United States; it is increasingly the most violent and well-organized,” an official with the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) told the House Homeland Security Committee Subcommittee on Counterterrorism and Intelligence on Tuesday morning. The FBI assistant director said the gang had a “propensity for gruesome violence.”

William F. Sweeney, Jr., the assistant director in charge of the FBI in New York told the committee that street gangs in general “show no signs of decreasing memberships or a decline in criminal activity.” In fact, according to the FBI’s 2015 National Gang Report, memberships in gangs increased in 2013 to 2015 in 49 percent of jurisdictions. Sweeney told the members of Congress that the FBI estimates there could be up to 10,000 members of the MS-13 gang living in the United States.


What did the 2013 FBI gang report say:

According to the FBI, criminal gangs – in some regions comprised significantly of illegal aliens – are wreaking havoc in the U.S., with 65 jurisdictions nationwide reporting gang-related offenses committed with firearms account for at least 95 percent of crime in those areas.

The FBI further documented gangs in Southwestern border regions consisting of up to 80 percent illegal aliens were committing a multitude of crimes in America, “including drug-related crimes, weapons trafficking, alien smuggling, human trafficking, prostitution, extortion, robbery, auto theft, assault, homicide, racketeering, and money laundering.”

The information was contained in the FBI’s 79-page National Gang Report published in 2013, the most recently released extensive agency report providing an overview of gang activities and trends in the United States.


It how about that Southwest border where illegals mostly are crossing:

https://crimeresearch.org/2018/01/impact-illegal-aliens-crim...

Undocumented immigrants are at least 142% more likely to be convicted of a crime than other Arizonans. They also tend to commit more serious crimes and serve 10.5% longer sentences, more likely to be classified as dangerous, and 45% more likely to be gang members than U.S. citizens.

Or here:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jan/26/illegals-co...

Illegals commit crimes at double the rate of native-born: Study. DACA-AGED ILLEGALS COMMIT CRIMES AT TWICE THE RATE OF YOUNG AMERICANS, SAYS A COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY OF CRIMES AND CONVICTIONS IN ARIZONA DURING THE PAST 32 YEARS.

Or how about a little further away in Oregon:

The data illuminate an uncomfortable truth about crime in Oregon: the degree of criminality among the illegal alien population is significantly higher than that of native-born inmates. While 75 percent of the criminal aliens in Oregon prisons had convictions for the serious crimes noted above, just 60 percent of “domestic” inmates were serving time for those offenses, according to Cross’ report.

I could go own and on but the reasonable reader already see the pattern of leftist BS......close the border to illegal crossing.

WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND???
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Let’s look at what there FBI actually said:

Yes, let's look ... even though it is a Breitbart source, which should disqualify it.

It says that MS-13 is a particularly nasty gang. OK. In no way does MS-13 equate with the vast bulk of asylum seekers or even people who sneak in without asking for asylum. Instead, MS-13 is a gang that was home grown in the US ... some immigrants, some not ... some we have deported and thus successfully exported MS-13 back to their countries of origin ... that worked out well, didn't it.

But, in no way does the nastiness of MS-13 have anything to do with undocumented immigrants in general or with asylum seekers in particular. It is equivalent to assuming that all Italians belong to the Mafia.

As for the Arizona study, it contradicts the national data which I presented previously. So, if true, would happen to be a local exception, but consider the source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lott

And, the Washington Times citation is merely a report of the same Arizona study, so not confirmation or supplemental data.

You provide no source for the Oregon quote, but the use of the phrase "native-born inmates" and the subsequent verbiage suggest that it is an analysis of the severity of crime of the *inmate* population, not the incidence of crime in the general immigrant population ... not at all the same thing.

close the border to illegal crossing.

What about 46 year low do you not understand?
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ALL illegal aliens are criminal by definition. If they have entered twice they are felons

http://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/us-immigration/crime-ent...

for the first improper entry offense, the person can be fined (as a criminal or civil penalty), or imprisoned for up to six months, or both. This is considered a misdemeanor under federal law (18 U.S.C.A. § 3559).
For a subsequent offense, or a reentry (or attempted reentry) after exclusion or deportation, the person can be fined or imprisoned for up to two years, or both. (See 8 U.S.C. Section 1325, 1326, I.N.A. Section 275, 276.) This is considered a low-level felony under federal law (18 U.S.C.A. § 3559).

If you deny the above I suppose it means you can't read

if we are going to forgive them for this, no penalties or fines , reward them with votes or committing crimes, then we should do the same with DUI with reckless driving. Because that and many other anti social crimes have smaller penalties, thus presumably are less severe crimes.

The US constitution is clear on who can be citizens (illegal aliens do not qualify) Article 14. It seems to say nothing about who can vote in non federal elections
This will probably wind up at SCOTUS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_foreigners_to_vote_in... This issue was apparently decided at state level in the past. So proponents will have to become State's Rights advocates

Since 1996, a federal law has prohibited non-citizens from voting in federal elections, punishing them by fines, imprisonment, inadmissibility, and deportation
.

I don't live there so I don't care if California wants to commit political seppuku
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ALL illegal aliens are criminal by definition.

The current crisis is with *asylum* seekers. There is nothing illegal about coming to the border and presenting oneself for asylum. To refuse to hear their asylum plea at a point of entry and thus force them to look for some other way to cross is our fault, not theirs. To then convince them to plead guilty to illegal entry and get deported in order to be reunited with their kids is criminal on our part, not theirs.

As for those who merely crossed over for a better life with no attempt to request asylum (which would seem to be simply turning oneself in to get deported the way things are working now), yes, they have technically committed a crime ... a misdemeanor. Consider the other sorts of crimes which are misdemeanors ... don't you think there is a bit of an overreaction here. Most people who have committed misdemeanors are not even considered criminals by society, but rather people who did something wrong once.

And no one is talking about rewards, merely trying to be accurate about the people we are actually talking about. Trump's current language is way out of line and needs to be stopped. Have you seen that he is now even talking about deporting these people without any semblance of due process? Not that it is real due process for an asylum seeker to take away their children, refuse them a credible fear interview, haul them into court for a hearing that lasts about 90 seconds, and tell them they need to plead guilty in order to have a chance to see their children again. That is simply not an American way to do things.
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