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This is classic commandeering of speech for purposes of catapulting an argument.

The whole discussion begins and ends with an assertion. Nothing can deviate from its premise.


Not sure what your beef is with the language. Dictionary definition:

priv·i·lege
'priv(?)lij/Submit
noun
1.
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.
"education is a right, not a privilege"
synonyms: advantage, benefit; More


It is undeniable that certain people have ADVANTAGES over other people in our society. It’s advantsgeous to be a man in sales. Because of pervasive racism in our society, blacks are often still at a disadvantage. Whites therefore have privilege.

I think your problem with the word might be that it’s easier to see the other side (disadvantage of being in a certain group or having certain characteristics or life experiences) than it is to admit the positive side of not having that disadvantage.

“I’m glad my parents were good role models” is simply an acknowledgement of your privilege in that area. “I didn’t start with the disadvantage of having parents who were slackers”

There are all kinds of privilege—it’s not all racial.
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It's definitely easier for high earners, assuming those high earners don't turn around and overextend themselves on fancy homes and cars.

I think a lot of this is attitude. Perhaps people from poorer backgrounds believe it's impossible to get ahead and so they don't even bother.

Those folks in the low cost-of-living areas should have an easier time even with relatively lower salaries, if they have the mindset to do it.
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I think a lot of this is attitude. Perhaps people from poorer backgrounds believe it's impossible to get ahead and so they don't even bother.

That's my wife's family (except for my wife). They firmly do not believe they will ever have money, so they never will.
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It's definitely easier for high earners, assuming those high earners don't turn around and overextend themselves on fancy homes and cars.</i.

Agree 100%. If you can be content on what you used to make, you can save/invest the additional income. I totally credit our ability to retire now with our contentment with our standard of living 25 years ago. As the raises came in, our savings grew, and that was with two kids for whom we paid their college education. Our peers are not so content, and they continue to work to pay for their lifestyle.

IP,
who has been planning for FIRE since a teen
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I think a lot of this is attitude. Perhaps people from poorer backgrounds believe it's impossible to get ahead and so they don't even bother.

Oh, please.
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Oh, please.

Seriously? Watch the news much? Being a male with white privilege seems to be the reason everyone else is coming up short.

JLC
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Seriously? Watch the news much? Being a male with white privilege seems to be the reason everyone else is coming up short.


Yes. No. Not a white male.
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Dolon: I think a lot of this is attitude. Perhaps people from poorer backgrounds believe it's impossible to get ahead and so they don't even bother.

AllDone: Oh, please.

No need for a snide remark. He said "I think. . . .", making it an opinion (not an assertion). He said "Perhaps. . . .", making it a possibility (not an assertion).

T
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I think a lot of this is attitude. Perhaps people from poorer backgrounds believe it's impossible to get ahead and so they don't even bother.

Those folks in the low cost-of-living areas should have an easier time even with relatively lower salaries, if they have the mindset to do it.


Early retirement is a concept that is foreign to most, so it is never thought about or planned for. I was lucky to have had the good example of early retirement from my parents, who honestly stumbled into it. Liking what I saw of their experience, I started planning early on. DH on the other hand comes from a family culture where his dad worked until mandatory retirement at 70, going back to work immediately as a contractor. He was financially independent at the time, but could not conceive of a life without work, which was interesting in nature. With this cultural family history DH has been resistant to retiring, and while not early by my definition, retiring at 59 is relatively early for him. Financially we could have easily retired 5 years earlier.

Cost of living is another thing that was not intuitive, at least for me in the pre-internet chat board era. I was a young adult in a very high cost of living city, earning not much more than minimum wage. Moving to a lower COL state at was an eye opener, money stretching much further and making it easier to put myself through school. The benefits of a low COL area was definitely discussed with Eldest as he chose the office he wanted to report to for his first real job. Manhattan and San Francisco may be great places, but choosing his office from the much lower COL available areas means being able to save/invest way more of his paycheck. They really should teach this in school.

IP
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The benefits of a low COL area was definitely discussed with Eldest as he chose the office he wanted to report to for his first real job. Manhattan and San Francisco may be great places, but choosing his office from the much lower COL available areas means being able to save/invest way more of his paycheck.

OTOH, living in Manhattan or SF might give additional choices in job changes without moving. It can also give someone a higher salary to be able to better negotiate if moving to a lower cost area. Starting in a high cost area and moving to a lower cost area is definitely easier than the reverse.

When people choose to retire to lower cost and particularly rural areas, there are also tradeoffs - think health care and first responder of all types.


They really should teach this in school.

Why ? It's a choice that you agreed with but may not be universal - the same as when anyone chooses to retire. Being able to retire early and having a choice is different than everyone should retire early.
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I think a lot of this is attitude. Perhaps people from poorer backgrounds believe it's impossible to get ahead and so they don't even bother.

Dolon is correct. If I can't win why waste my time playing? It's easy to shoot for something and move up when you have reason to believe something is there for your efforts. If you are convinced there's nothing there, you're actually foolish for trying. Even Rich people don't waste their time and efforts going for something they know they won't get. That's the perception. It's funny reading purportedly educated, successful, generally economically well-off people even debating it. Don't know what you'd call it.
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Even Rich people don't waste their time and efforts going for something they know they won't get.

Donald Trump
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Even Rich people don't waste their time and efforts going for something they know they won't get.

Donald Trump



He got everything he was shooting for and more! And what did he have at stake but a merry jaunt?

Also.... anyone who mentions a possible outlier as definitive or relevant has relinquished a right to the discussion. Poor excuse, tsk tsk Have a nice day
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Even Rich people don't waste their time and efforts going for something they know they won't get.
________________________________

Donald Trump
________________________________

He got everything he was shooting for and more! And what did he have at stake but a merry jaunt?

Also.... anyone who mentions a possible outlier as definitive or relevant has relinquished a right to the discussion. Poor excuse, tsk tsk Have a nice day


No, no. I don't believe Trump is definitive of anything and he's definitely an outlier. I just don't believe he thought he would get it. Perhaps the ultimate outlier.

Karen
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Perhaps the ultimate outlier.

Karen


I don't think anyone can out-lie Trump.

So there!

CNC
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Perhaps the ultimate outlier.

Karen

I don't think anyone can out-lie Trump.

So there!

CNC


LOL!
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OTOH, living in Manhattan or SF might give additional choices in job changes without moving. It can also give someone a higher salary to be able to better negotiate if moving to a lower cost area. Starting in a high cost area and moving to a lower cost area is definitely easier than the reverse.

Sure, those things could happen but in this real case the salary would have been the same in any office. The industry he is in is highly competitive for a too small talent base and after a few years these guys have the option of working from home, wherever home may be. At one point the goal was his own company in 5 years, so socking away the funds for seed money is great. At this point he loves his job too much to consider setting up his own shop, but that could certainly change, particularly when time spent on the road gets old.

They really should teach this in school.
...
Why ? It's a choice that you agreed with but may not be universal - the same as when anyone chooses to retire. Being able to retire early and having a choice is different than everyone should retire early.


Understanding such basics as how cost of living can effect you can have a huge impact on decision making. Whether you choose to live in a high or low COL it's best it be an informed decision. It's a missing piece of education for most people. And no one said everyone should retire early, but again understanding that it and financial independence can be possible makes it more likely that people could reach that goal if they so choose. It is hard to reach what you can not imagine.

When people choose to retire to lower cost and particularly rural areas, there are also tradeoffs - think health care and first responder of all types.

Yes, this should certainly be a consideration that should be accounted for, but I am very happy with the world class research and teaching hospital that is in our town. And while the COL here is higher than some places, it's an insane bargain compared to the high COL area we were in, which means I can have my riverfront country cabin and city home for much less than the price of a home where we came from.

IP
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"I don't think anyone can out-lie Trump."

Let's see...

Obama told the entire country 'if you like your health care plan, you can keep it'....remember?

And he went on "if you like your doctor, you can keep him/her".....remember

Obama told some of the biggest whoppers of all time. Lied on public TV over and over again.

And how much was I going to save? "The average family will save $3000 a year"......another whopper!

And you dare accuse Trump of lying?

What, he said he wasn't part of "Russian collusion" and a billion dollars spent trying to find evidence turned up nothing. No lie.

Really?

Obama has the biggest whoppers of all times that are remembered by EVERYONE.


t.
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telegraph wrote:
Obama blah blah blah....

tele as usual does his best to out-lie Trump. I don't think there's anything in that post that has any validity at all. Pretty typical.

-IGU-
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So sad to see a good play on words be so misunderstood.

IP
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"Missing is any acknowledgment of the privilege embedded in the ability to save 50% or 75% of your income to begin with"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Gee.
Who knew spending less than you make was such a privilege. Seems
that it takes a lot of work and planning - and privilege doesn't
enter into the equation at all.

Howie52
But maybe folks driving around in 10+ year old cars is a privilege -
and patches on the knees of bluejeans is a fashion statement.
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Yup! Just reach down and grab them bootstraps. You just don't get it, do you Howie? Privilege is just hard to understand when you've lived with it all your life.
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Yup! Just reach down and grab them bootstraps. You just don't get it, do you Howie? Privilege is just hard to understand when you've lived with it all your life.

Heh. My parents would be surprised to hear this. As a kid Dad traveled around a lot in an effort for his alcoholic dad to escape the debtors. He died when Dad was 10 and as the youngest his mom destined him for the Catholic church, which did help Dad get an education. Dad taught school when the pays were so bad that he also had to have two part time jobs, one as a milkman and one as a janitor. Mom mostly was at home raising the 6 kids in the broken down farm house, running off to work at Sears when Dad came home to sleep. Dad often said "If you can read you can do anything," and indeed, there was nothing he wouldn't tackle. And while 6 kids can be time consuming and expensive, they can also be put into service around the house. As a kid Mom had a full scholarship to what was a prestigious school, but when her dad, a carpenter, broke his leg during the depression, all the kids had to leave school and take menial jobs to keep the family afloat. She later got her GED and then college degree after the 6th kid was born. With a double masters degree she never made more than $13,000 salary teaching at public schools.

Other participants in this "life of privilege" were my 16 aunts and uncles, none of whom graduated from high school or went on to college, worked at menial jobs until they near dropped. I guess they missed the memo.

I am privileged because I was able to witness my parents life of hard work, frugality, and investing for the future both via education and finances. The same was expected of us, yet like my parents I am the only one who is retiring early. Some never will be able to retire, others will live pretty leanly, one will retire when he is about 18 years older than I, having chosen to stay in the high COL area we grew up in. Sadly from what I see at this early stage of our family, Eldest will sail into financial independence, Youngest not so much.

Life of privilege? Try life of discipline.

IP,
knowing many "rich" people who don't have more than two nickels to rub together
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...one will retire when he is about 18 years older than I...

Oops, make that 8 years older than I. Bro is doing relatively well.

IP
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rich habits, poor habits, Thomas C. Corley
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This is one of those reasons that keeps me from calling myself "a Liberal" or registering as a Democrat.

Yes, some White people have privilege. We know the type. Let's not kid ourselves. But what's the difference between someone saying "Oh you know 'those people.' Yes, we all know they're all like that, they all do that, they're all that way. and being called a racist, and all this Hate Whitey / White privilege talk? Of course, it's because we're all alike! We're "Those People" to those who would talk like that. And we all have the same privileges! But it's not racism or some ism. No, it's.. uh some concept of "justice" or more precisely crap-talk and laughably disguised hate speech. It's Trump-talk from the other side
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IP: Heh. My parents would be surprised to hear this. As a kid Dad traveled around a lot in an effort for his alcoholic dad to escape the debtors.
...
I am privileged because I was able to witness my parents life of hard work, frugality, and investing for the future both via education and finances.

I have written before about my Father's story. Born to a backwoods Louisiana family (at a very early age.) he had to quit school in the 9th grade to help support the family by working in other people's farms. They had migrated to West Texas by then, seeking work, but they arrived just in time for the Great Depression and the Dust Bowl. They moved to Lubbock, where Dad was able to get a job at an office supply store. I think he started as delivery boy and/or stock boy. He got a raise to $35 a week and decided to get married in the mid-30's. Somehow he became a salesman for the company. He was a good salesman. People liked him, and he was intelligent and knew his products (Office supplies and equipment.) But he still had a 9th grade education.

My reason for re-telling his story has to do with his completely horrible opinion of POC. Did he know white privilege? I would say yes. He could get a job when black people could not. They were wrenchingly poor, but the black people had it worse. Yet he never abandoned the N-word.

Because he was a good salesman, he made a comfortable living, which none of the extended family did. All were honest and hard working, but they worked at mechanical jobs, which limited advancement.

He was able to send me to Texas Tech*. I was the first in the extended family to attend college, the first to get a college degree. But I did enjoy privilege, white or otherwise.

Did Dad enjoy "white privilege? I would say yes, in spite of the early poverty. A black person of his intelligence and good work ethic could not have achieved the relative affluence Dad enjoyed.

CNC
The charter for Texas Tech specifically stated that it was to be a school for whites only. Founded in the 1930's, partially to create construction jobs in the area.
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Yes, some White people have privilege. We know the type. Let's not kid ourselves.


Just being white is “privilege.” Being a white male is privilege. I’m a white woman, and in my career I’ve made less than men for the same job, better credentials... and I’ve not lost any time from the workforce BC of having children. That’s an example of privilege and it’s an example of the fact that certain people simply have to work harder to get to the same place.

I’m not black; I recognize that I, too, have privilege. I’ve never been asked to leave a restaurant or been accused of trespassing at a Starbucks. I’ve never walked into an interview and been immediately disqualified because of the color of my skin. Yes, it’s illegal. Does it still happen? You betcha.

Did you grow up in a home with 2 parents? A home where no one was mentally ill or alcoholic? Privilege.

I’m not saying that anyone should feel bad about their privilege.... but I do think it’s wrong to expect everyone to be where you are if others are starting at home plate and you’re starting at third base.
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MissEdithKeeler writes,

I’m not saying that anyone should feel bad about their privilege.... but I do think it’s wrong to expect everyone to be where you are if others are starting at home plate and you’re starting at third base.

</snip>


Third base ain't nothin'. Some of these "extra" white boys are starting at home plate and think they've already rounded the bases and hit a home run.

intercst
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Just being white is “privilege.” Being a white male is privilege. I

This is classic commandeering of speech for purposes of catapulting an argument.

The whole discussion begins and ends with an assertion. Nothing can deviate from its premise.

Whatever I call a privilege is a privilege. Now that that is settled we an begin the accusing and castigating and demeaning in group format.

I’m not black; I recognize that I, too, have privilege. I’ve never been asked to leave a restaurant or been accused of trespassing at a Starbucks. I’ve never walked into an interview and been immediately disqualified because of the color of my skin. Yes, it’s illegal. Does it still happen? You betcha.

Except none of that is privilege. Yes, I've been harassed into leaving various retail establishments because I was --a young male! I wouldn't expect a non-male to know about that or give a flying one about it. I know exactly what "driving while black" must feel like because I got the same treatment. I mentioned this to a suburban housewife about 18 yrs ago. She had 2 teenage sons and a teenage daughter. She had no idea. She asked her sons and was shocked at the answer. Got the same treatment in the South back when it wasn't at all cool to be military.

And because it's not race-based doesn't mean I cannot know it and understand it. That's just more racialism and bizarro Left-think.

Did you grow up in a home with 2 parents? A home where no one was mentally ill or alcoholic? Privilege.

Not privilege. Yes, the house had alckies in it. And anger management problems. And no money. Mentally ill? I always thought they were "crazy" or deficient but I am not a doctor.

I’m not saying that anyone should feel bad about their privilege.... but I do think it’s wrong to expect everyone to be where you are if others are starting at home plate and you’re starting at third base.

Now that I agree with. En toto. Just get off that high Race-horse. And it applies to all. If White people have some sort of "inside track" in a general sense you'd have to look at the grander sweep of human history and stop petty-fogging the issue over mere Western civ c 1600 - present.

I don't see how anything you said relates to the post of mine you were responding to. I know a privilege when I see one and and I know when speech is being misapplied to create a narrative. Unworthy victims etc etc
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MissEdithKeeler writes,

I’m not saying that anyone should feel bad about their privilege.... but I do think it’s wrong to expect everyone to be where you are if others are starting at home plate and you’re starting at third base.

</snip>

Third base ain't nothin'. Some of these "extra" white boys are starting at home plate and think they've already rounded the bases and hit a home run.

intercst


Not only that but born on Home Plate with a 10 run lead
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Did Dad enjoy "white privilege? I would say yes, in spite of the early poverty. A black person of his intelligence and good work ethic could not have achieved the relative affluence Dad enjoyed.


Emphasis mine. And that, in essence, is what white privilege is.
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This is classic commandeering of speech for purposes of catapulting an argument.

The whole discussion begins and ends with an assertion. Nothing can deviate from its premise.


Not sure what your beef is with the language. Dictionary definition:

priv·i·lege
'priv(?)lij/Submit
noun
1.
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.
"education is a right, not a privilege"
synonyms: advantage, benefit; More


It is undeniable that certain people have ADVANTAGES over other people in our society. It’s advantsgeous to be a man in sales. Because of pervasive racism in our society, blacks are often still at a disadvantage. Whites therefore have privilege.

I think your problem with the word might be that it’s easier to see the other side (disadvantage of being in a certain group or having certain characteristics or life experiences) than it is to admit the positive side of not having that disadvantage.

“I’m glad my parents were good role models” is simply an acknowledgement of your privilege in that area. “I didn’t start with the disadvantage of having parents who were slackers”

There are all kinds of privilege—it’s not all racial.
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Not only that but born on Home Plate with a 10 run lead

Yet it's impressive how many people who have been born into this situation cannot handle their money and wind up broke. Youngest used to ask me why we didn't have fancy cars like his friends parents did, why he didn't receive a car on his 16th like his friends. Told him my 10 year old sedan did the speed limit and then some so why shell out more money on a depreciating asset that would just get me into paying for speeding tickets, when instead we could put that money to work towards paying for his school and getting Dad out of the work place before he died behind his desk. He got it somewhat senior year high school when so many of his friends were stressing out about how to pay for college, but it is a recurring conversation.

IP
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"You just don't get it, do you Howie?"

*******************************************

Nope.
Not one iota.

But may God grant you opportunities to serve and help people
who are both better off and worse off than yourself.
You may never know which is which.
May God give you a life filled with hard work and great joys.
The two tend to be joined at the hip.
May God grant you the ability to see yourself as others see you
and to see others as the simple people we all are.
May God grant that you are never judged as harshly as you judge others.
No man really knows all the good or all the evils of another.

And may God grant you a long and healthy life.

Howie52
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I mostly agree with the whole "privilege" thing, but that is the wrong word. What whites have is the lack of the disadvantage of dark skin. What men have is the lack of the disadvantage of being female. People with two legs have advantages over people with no legs. People who can see have advantages over people who can't.

Calling that "privilege" implies that the people who lack the disadvantages are somehow corrupt and need to change, but what we really need is for people to deliberately overlook disadvantages that don't matter for the decisions at hand.

Anyhow, that's mostly semantics, so I wouldn't argue about what is being said, but I think the wording needs some improvement to avoid raising hackles that don't need to be raised.
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The whole "privilege" stuff is just B.S., with the intention to foist guilt. People who feel guilt are easier to manipulate.

If you want to talk about unearned privilege, how about the privilege of having English as your native language. Or about the privilege of being a U.S. citizen. Or about the privilege of being having a computer and internet access and enough free time to read & post on message boards.
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"Perhaps people from poorer backgrounds believe it's impossible to get ahead and so they don't even bother."

Bruce Springsteen grew up virtually at the bottom of the economic ladder in Freehold NJ. His father was chronically unemployed due to mental illness and his mother was a secretary. He worked his butt off at his craft and through determination and endless hard work, he's now worth hundreds of millions of dollars. It can be done.

PS
The irony is that his current home, a gijillion square foot home on a several hundred acre farm is only a few miles from the house he grew up in.
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Or is it one of those cases where any term used would raise hackles, with some determined to have their hackles raised?
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The whole "privilege" stuff is just B.S., with the intention to foist guilt. People who feel guilt are easier to manipulate.

I don't buy the guilt part. To me, it's just B.S.

If you want to talk about unearned privilege, how about the privilege of having English as your native language. Or about the privilege of being a U.S. citizen. Or about the privilege of being having a computer and internet access and enough free time to read & post on message boards.

No guilt here either. Sorry, still B.S.

culcha
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