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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 445731  
Subject: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/25/2012 1:20 PM
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Received in email. I signed it because I think Obama should have done this his first year in office.

Subject: Time is now to close Guantanamo prison

Dear Friend,

I just asked President Obama to close Guantánamo Bay prison and either resettle or repatriate the 86 prisoners cleared for release by government investigators.

Only this month, Mr. Adnan Latif of Yemen died in Guantánamo, after being held without charges for 10 years and after being cleared for release by the courts three times. It's a tragedy that didn't have to happen.

Please join me in asking President Obama to fulfill his promise to close the prison, and to resettle or repatriate all prisoners cleared of wrongdoing. Click below to sign the petition.
http://act.credoaction.com/campaign/gitmo_obama/?r_by=47521-...
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Author: DrBob2 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409795 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/25/2012 1:38 PM
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I think Obama should have done this his first year in office.

Ain't so easy. For example, there are 55 POWs (one-third of the total) whom the US is willing to release into the custody of another country (other than Yemen which is too insecure) but nobody wants them.

Since we have turned over control of the detention facilities at Bagram to the Afghans, the US has nowhere to hold and interrogate newly captured terrorists. If you've followed the news on targeted drone strikes, the current policy seems to be kill, not capture. One gains less intelligence that way, but it's not as politically 'messy'.

DB2

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409798 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/25/2012 1:57 PM
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Ain't so easy. For example, there are 55 POWs (one-third of the total) whom the US is willing to release into the custody of another country (other than Yemen which is too insecure) but nobody wants them.

Then we have two choices. Shoot them, or bring them state-side. I would vote for the latter. It's not without precedent. We've had POW facilities in this country before. Germans were once held about 30 miles from where I'm sitting.**

1poorguy


** Funny story...a group of them escaped thinking they could make it to the river and float to Mexico. When they got to the river it was dry. :-)

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Author: CountUpp Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409802 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/25/2012 2:34 PM
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It's also time to resume relations with Cuba. We should try to be friends with whomever is in control, rather than trying to impose "our guy". (OK, not a way to win Florida.)

Count Upp

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Author: rmhj Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409821 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/25/2012 6:12 PM
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1pg: Then we have two choices. Shoot them, or bring them state-side. I would vote for the latter. It's not without precedent. We've had POW facilities in this country before. Germans were once held about 30 miles from where I'm sitting.**

Congress eliminated the latter possibility.

rj

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409836 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/25/2012 9:15 PM
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1pg: Then we have two choices. Shoot them, or bring them state-side. I would vote for the latter. It's not without precedent. •••

Congress eliminated the latter possibility.



between GOP, "No and NO" to everything and Democrat NIMBYs ... yup

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409843 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/26/2012 2:17 AM
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1pg says

Then we have two choices. Shoot them, or bring them state-side. I would vote for the latter. It's not without precedent. We've had POW facilities in this country before. Germans were once held about 30 miles from where I'm sitting.**

Third choice: turn them the f*ck loose. Yemen's too "insecure"? So what? There's Yemen, and North Korea, and several nowhere countries in Africa, Central Asia, Oklahoma, even South America. Put them on beaches by submarine. Put parachutes on them and drop them out of airplanes. How hard can it be? How dangerous can 55 idiots be if they're scattered around the world? Turn them loose.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409854 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/26/2012 11:13 AM
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between GOP, "No and NO" to everything and Democrat NIMBYs ... yup

Don't think so. POTUS is CinC. He could order the prisoners moved to another military installation, or even Leavenworth (I would think). He needs Congress' permission to go to war, but I don't think he needs it to move people around, retarget missiles, etc. Heck, I'm pretty sure he didn't inform them when he crossed over into another country and took out several combatants (Pakistan: OBL and Co). One could argue that was an act of war, too.

Congress might get pissed, but I don't see how they can stop him from moving the prisoners.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409885 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/26/2012 2:25 PM
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Maybe we could turn them loose on Pulau Hantu island.

:-)

Middle of a vast desert works too.

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Author: discurro Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409886 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/26/2012 2:28 PM
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Middle of a vast desert works too.

so saudi arabia? maybe not the best idea.

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Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409887 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/26/2012 2:30 PM
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Put them somewhere really desolate and forsaken, like West Texas.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409889 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/26/2012 2:33 PM
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so saudi arabia? maybe not the best idea.

No. How about the Gobi? Or maybe the Sahara. Someplace far from settlements. In July.

Though I still think we should put them on trial.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409891 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/26/2012 2:48 PM
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so saudi arabia? maybe not the best idea.

No. How about the Gobi? Or maybe the Sahara. Someplace far from settlements. In July.

Though I still think we should put them on trial.

------------------------


How come everyone is so gung-ho on punishing these people?
Do you (any of you) even know who they are or what they are supposed to have done? I have to admit that I don't know. Maybe they are really bad guys. But maybe they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time and have spent years in our prison without a trial.

There is something very wrong with that to me. If we are convinced they are guilty of something - we should try them. If we don't have a clue who they are or what they supposedly did, why are we holding them?

AM

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Author: DrBob2 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409898 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/26/2012 3:51 PM
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Though I still think we should put them on trial.

Congress set up a system of military tribunals; twice, actually, the issue having gone to the Supremes a couple of times. Back in January 2009 Obama halted all tribunal hearings; that was soon overturned. In 2011 hearings were resumed. They are currently going through pre-trial motions and the like.

DB2

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409899 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/26/2012 3:51 PM
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If we don't have a clue who they are or what they supposedly did, why are we holding them?

Because we've been systematically and mercilessly torturing them for 11 years now and they have some hard feelings about it so we can't let them go because they'd probably become terrorists.

6

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409905 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/26/2012 4:31 PM
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How come everyone is so gung-ho on punishing these people?

I'm gung-ho on getting them tried. My comments to the Count's suggestion were somewhat facetious. I say "try 'em". If they're guilty, kill them. If not, let them go.

Indefinite detention is not cool, IMO. It's not our way. We've done a miserable job of demonstrating this, however.

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Author: sykesix Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409908 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/26/2012 4:58 PM
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Though I still think we should put them on trial.

Not putting them on trial was and is an enormous act of cowardice. It is a big announcement to the world that we don't trust our own system and don't believe in our own values.

It was and is cowardice.

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Author: CountUpp Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409910 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/26/2012 5:23 PM
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>i?\>Maybe we could turn them loose on Pulau Hantu island.


Don't be silly. Gough island.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/working-very-remotely-island-g...

Count Upp

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409915 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/26/2012 5:56 PM
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He needs Congress' permission to go to war, but I don't think he needs it to move people around, retarget missiles, etc. Heck, I'm pretty sure he didn't inform them when he crossed over into another country and took out several combatants (Pakistan: OBL and Co). One could argue that was an act of war, too.

Congress might get pissed, but I don't see how they can stop him from moving the prisoners.



withhold funds?


i don't recall the details ...but read it in what i consider reliable source --that Congress was able to stop him from moving them

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409923 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/26/2012 6:43 PM
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Pulau Hantu is submerged at high tide.

:-)

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Author: DrBob2 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409924 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/26/2012 6:49 PM
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Congress might get pissed, but I don't see how they can stop him from moving the prisoners.
---
withhold funds?


Yep. In May 2009, with a Dem-controled Congress. The vote in the Senate was 90-6. Talk about bi-partisanship.

Then in January, 2011 Obama signed off on legislation placing restrictions on the transfer of Guantanamo prisoners to the mainland or to other foreign countries.

DB2

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409927 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/26/2012 7:10 PM
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If we don't have a clue who they are or what they supposedly did, why are we holding them?

Because we've been systematically and mercilessly torturing them for 11 years now and they have some hard feelings about it so we can't let them go because they'd probably become terrorists.

6

----------------


Good point.

AM

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409933 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/26/2012 8:27 PM
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Not putting them on trial was and is an enormous act of cowardice.

Well said.

I wonder, though...can we try them now? After 10 or so years in Gitmo? I would think there would be numerous legal causes to move for dismissal. Which is our own fault for holding them so long. How much of the evidence would be admissible? What about the "speedy trial" clause? Etc.

I'm not a lawyer, but I would think this would all be problematic.

1poorguy

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Author: sykesix Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409934 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/26/2012 8:54 PM
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Well said.

I wonder, though...can we try them now? After 10 or so years in Gitmo? I would think there would be numerous legal causes to move for dismissal. Which is our own fault for holding them so long. How much of the evidence would be admissible? What about the "speedy trial" clause? Etc.

I'm not a lawyer, but I would think this would all be problematic.


Agreed. The whole reason for having an agreed upon legal framework in the first place is so that everyone knows what to do in the case the law is broken, or believed to be broken.

Our Constitution has provided that framework for 225 years, and IMO has worked decently well the whole time. Not perfectly, but pretty well. But instead of relying the Constitution, the decision was made to create this extra-judicial system, because the people in charge at the time didn't like the Constitution. "Constitution isn't a suicide pact" I believe was the popular talking point. So the Constitution and basic American principles of justice, fairplay, and freedom were ignored and an island prison was created.

But we are a national of laws, and the Supreme Court ruled that this extra-judicial system was illegal, and so we had to go back to square one. Only, square one is a big, jumbled mess because no one thought they had to pay attention to the rules.

There are quite a few lessons in there. The helluva it is, that we really didn't need to learn those lessons again. There was plenty of precedent. And of course, the fact we elected people to office who utterly despise what this country stands for didn't help.

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Author: DrBob2 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409937 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/27/2012 6:46 AM
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I wonder, though...can we try them now?

Well, you could google it and find out whats going on now. For example, in the trial of a man charged in the USS Cole bombing, the judge just recently ruled out courtroom TV cameras.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/guantanamo-judge-no-tv-broadca...

Last month charges were filed against a man for plotting to attack oil tankers in the Strait of Hormuz and off Yemen's coast.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/9507804/Guantana...

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed has been charged in the September 11 attacks and dozens of pretrial motions have been filed.
www.startribune.com/nation/169030896.html?refer=y

DB2

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410024 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/27/2012 10:01 PM
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Bob,

Those aren't real trials. They are special military tribunals created just for them.

I meant a real trial here. If we brought them state-side, and put them on trial, I am wondering if all charges would be dismissed, and most or all evidence excluded, due to civil rights violations. I'm thinking by this point in time the answer is 'yes'.

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Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/28/2012 7:07 AM
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Those aren't real trials. They are special military tribunals created just for them. I meant a real trial here. If we brought them state-side, and put them on trial, I am wondering if all charges would be dismissed, and most or all evidence excluded, due to civil rights violations. I'm thinking by this point in time the answer is 'yes'.

The problem with bringing Gitmo suspects in general to the US for trial is that we didn’t use the law-enforcement method to capture most of them. We are at war, captured the detainees outside the jurisdiction of the US, and should adjudicate their cases in military tribunals where sensitive information can be protected. The criminal courts would most likely free them, allowing them to continue their jihad against the US unhindered.

These fellows didn't go on a crime spree; they declared war against the Great Satan.

DB2

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410030 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/28/2012 8:24 AM
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The problem with bringing Gitmo suspects in general to the US for trial is that we didn’t use the law-enforcement method to capture most of them. We are at war, captured the detainees outside the jurisdiction of the US, and should adjudicate their cases in military tribunals where sensitive information can be protected. The criminal courts would most likely free them, allowing them to continue their jihad against the US unhindered.

------------------


What sensitive information?
Do you mean CYA military information?
Or do you mean world-ending dangerous information?
Maybe you mean information that will cause us civilians to gnash our teeth and wring our hands.

AM

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Author: DrBob2 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410031 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/28/2012 9:27 AM
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What sensitive information?

I was thinking of intelligence assets, networks and methods.

Of course, nowadays once we find out where somebody is we just kill them with a drone attack. Much neater, you know.

DB2

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410034 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/28/2012 10:38 AM
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Of course, nowadays once we find out where somebody is we just kill them with a drone attack. Much neater, you know.

Cracks me up to read righties screach about the use of drones, as if they'd prefer another 4000 dead soldiers and who knows how many maimed, requiring intensive, hugely expensive, lifelong medical care.

Note that all those incapacitated military heros are 47%leaches. My nephew-in-law is just such a leach... ex-marine - 2 tours - on welfare.

Surely we could put them to work picking strawberries or clipping lawns of the 1% with scissors, and not waste money on prosthetics.

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Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/28/2012 11:06 AM
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Note that all those incapacitated military heros are 47%leaches. My nephew-in-law is just such a leach... ex-marine - 2 tours - on welfare.

Surely we could put them to work picking strawberries or clipping lawns of the 1% with scissors, and not waste money on prosthetics.

---------


Maybe Romney would hire them at minimum wage. Or less.

AM

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410050 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/28/2012 12:50 PM
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They never declared war on us, nor we on them. They aren't even a nation. They're a group. It's like being at war with UNICEF.

Back when we had principles we tried such people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramzi_Yousef

I understand your argument. I recall discussing that very thing 10 years ago (on this board). The "high road" was to try them properly.

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Author: DrBob2 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410055 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/28/2012 1:09 PM
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The "high road" was to try them properly.

However, Congress and the Supreme Court disagree with your version of 'properly' (as do I).

DB2

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Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/28/2012 1:21 PM
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I recall discussing that very thing 10 years ago (on this board). The "high road" was to try them properly.

A proper trial can only be conducted, imho, in a situation where both sides have equal access to evidence.

Where a crime is allegedly perpetrated in the USA - theoretically - both prosecution and defense teams have reasonable access to all the relevant witnesses and evidence.

The defense and prosecution accessed a huge quantity of in-depth information relative to Timothy McVeigh.

Doing the same for some guy who was born in one country, trained by terrorists in others, yet was apprehended in yet a 3rd.... no way he can get a comparably comprehensive defense.

....yet, I have no doubt but that a bunch of them are 'bad guys.' We aren't totally incompetent.

It's really too bad their co-religionists started a big fight.

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410076 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/28/2012 4:44 PM
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Cracks me up to read righties screach about the use of drones, as if they'd prefer another 4000 dead soldiers and who knows how many maimed, requiring intensive, hugely expensive, lifelong medical care.


pretty sure the only detail they care about is Obama shouldn't be CiC



Surely we could put them to work picking strawberries or clipping lawns of the 1% with scissors, and not waste money on prosthetics.


there was a bill proposed that would create a kind of CCC, help them get jobs as police or paramedics .... but GOP decided Too Expensive*





* biased article:
http://truth-out.org/news/item/11795-veterans-first-and-thei...

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Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/28/2012 5:20 PM
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Cracks me up to read righties screach about the use of drones, as if they'd prefer another 4000 dead soldiers...

I don't know many who mind the use of drones. What I was objecting to was using them to kill 'high value' persons rather than capture them, thereby missing the opportunity for gathering intelligence.

Boumediene v. Bush, in particular, fundamentally altered the calculus of war, guaranteeing that the benefits of intelligence that might be gained is out-weighted by the systemic cost of defending detention decisions. Hence, no more detentions, i.e., automatic death sentences.

Conclusion: Take no prisoners.

DB2

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Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 9/28/2012 5:40 PM
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To the best of my knowledge, the Geneva Conventions do not even hint at any kind of judicial review for the ordinary detention of military prisoners.

In 2010, the DC Circuit Court ruled on a case, al-Maaqaleh vs. Gates. The court decided against extending habeas corpus rights to detainess held at Bagram in Afghanistan. They wrote that the writ of habeas corpus "does not extend to the Bagram confinement in an active theater of war in a territory under neither the de facto nor de jure sovereignty of the United States."

DB2

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Author: DrBob2 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410448 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 10/5/2012 5:29 PM
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Cracks me up to read righties screach about the use of drones...

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/10/05/14241712-ameri...
Dozens of anti-drone activists have traveled to Pakistan to join a march to the country's tribal areas, where more than 300 strikes have killed thousands of people in the last eight years.

The 32 members of Code Pink have ignored a State Department travel warning to take part in Pakistani presidential candidate Imran Khan's "peace rally" to the remote area bordering Afghanistan, where the vast majority of the nearly 350 US drone strikes in Pakistan have occurred.

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410453 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 10/5/2012 5:42 PM
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So the righties complaining about Obamadrones are on the same page as the Code Pinkers, but lack theballs Code Pinkers have. Is that what your saying, Bodycount Bob?

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Author: DrBob2 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 410467 of 445731
Subject: Re: time to close Guantanamo Date: 10/5/2012 6:49 PM
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So the righties complaining about Obamadrones are on the same page as the Code Pinkers....

Nope. Those on the right who are complaining about drones are concerned about the loss of potential information that would be useful to the intelligence community. I doubt that is what concerns the Code Pinkers.

DB2

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