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Author: doowah Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 27821  
Subject: TMF evaluation Date: 9/29/2001 11:25 AM
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I was curious to learn my fellow DRIPers opinion of the TMF. Specifically as a source of investing advice. I'm not talking about the advice received on this and other sites from average folks like us. I'm talking about the advice that TMF gives out.

Looking back on it, I see that most of their mantra has been repudiated by the market. Their RuleMaker theory of finding quality companies, buying them at any price, because eventually having those companies in your portfolio will lead to success has resulted in nail-biting losses. I know they backed off the buy at any price part late in the game. But, for a long time, that was their opinion.

Their RuleBreaker port and it's decimation speaks for itself.

Anyone recall the cornerstone of TMF - The Foolish Four! Even they admitted that the theory was baseless and there was no correlation between buying those 4 stocks and beating the market average on a yearly basis.

Closer to home, I even think their DRIP port is lame. Campbell Soup! And, with all due respect to those who DRIP it - Intel! Intel, a company that pays what, a $.02 dividend. And now they are considering adding Paychex to the post. Paychex - a company that trades at a multiple that is mindboggling. Sorry, I don't get it.

Lastly, I watched one of their Gardner Brothers public television hourly specials the other night and it was mildly entertaing but the only thing I gleamed from it in an hour was "get out of debt" and "did you know you can call your credit card company and ask them to lower your interest rate." I mean, it was hardly cutting edge stuff folks.

That's the end of my rant. I appreciate the forum TMF has offered us to exchange ideas. For me, this site has been a Godsend. But the knowledge gleamed here has been from individuals - George Fisher, Jenn, Dave Fish, exilion, even Opera Bob manages a coherent thought on occasion. I can't think of much of value I've learned that came from someone with a TMF username. Am I off base here? Any thoughts?

Dude




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Author: japper Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20842 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/29/2001 12:51 PM
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Dude,
I agree with your comments. What we have to remember is that this is just a couple of guys with some ideas of how to beat the markets, and that they can be as wrong as anyone else on the Street. The founders are no different than Zweig (sp?) or any of the others who attempt to share their thoughts on the markets.

Key is that these two guys realized that we, as investors, needed a place to freely discuss investing and share our knowledge as well.

In the end, the founders are trying to make a living based upon their knowledge and what they "think" others may want to know and share too. What is their business model? At best, they are another Internet company who are trying to meet expenses based upon advertising and developed their own products to peddle directly to those site visitors. While the products may not be what we want, someone else may be interested in them (such as the new Money Advisor). Personally, if I am going tp pay for a Money Advisor I would expect a lot more from the service.

On to other things, subscribing to a discussion forum is plain wrong. There are many other discussion forums around and they are free. What is offered here is a community of like-minded individuals. To take advantage of that community in the form of fees is like telling you to pay a tax because you choose to live on A Street versus B Street; not right in any community. Now, offering that community real services may be worth a fee provided it is marginal for the services received. In other words, if A Street has trash pick-up and B Street does not, maybe it is worth paying a dollar but not more for the service.

Think about how people flocked to the services of Buy and Hold and Sharebuilder UNTIL fees were changed and imposed. Where did they go? Elsewhere, one only has to recall the many discussions held here to be reminded. Interesting is that the fees were marginal/reasonable (for some) and people did not want to pay so they left.

Just my thoughts as the economy further tightens its belt.

Jenn

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Author: OperaBob Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20843 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/29/2001 1:14 PM
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Dude,

even Opera Bob manages a coherent thought on occasion.


Can you please remind which one of my 900+ posts that was so I can go back and have it deleted. ;-)

Actually, I think that the value is not in the individual selections but the educational process. No broker is going to help me understand why I should buy a "cold call". They'll just tell you it's a good buy right now. Of course for that to work another broker has to tell their client that they think it's a good time to sell. I even had an experience with one broker myself and a friend were both using. She called my friend to say, "Something is rotten with ABC Co. We need to sell right now." The next call was to me to say, "I think ABC Co. would be good for you." Needless to say I don't use that broker anymore.

The value of the FOOL to me is that at least I'm armed with an understanding of why I'm losing money. No broker will give me that advice. When someone tries to sell me something I've got a list of questions that put them instantly on notice that there not dealing with a fool but a FOOL.

As for Intel and Campbell:

The money is Randy's and Jeff's. Everything at the FOOL tells you to do your own due dilligence. Are you blindly copying them?

I'm in favour of leaving Campbell's where it is. To cash it out would incur a charge and then to reinvest it would possibly incur another charge. With only a small amount invested at the moment those charges represent a large percentage commission. Perhaps the best thing is to just let it sit for 15 years. Afterall that is one of the major aims of the DRIP PORT.

What's wrong with the INTEL purchase? Do you believe INTEL will be here in 15 years? If you do and you believe in the defensiveness of DCAing long term then right now is a good time to buy (and I have sent extra and larger cheques to them recently).Your thinking should be 15 years down the road.

Dude, I'm not sure if your comment re: my coherence was a shot or meant as humour (I'll assume humour). I've readily admitted I'm a piker compared to the likes of Dave, the Georges, Exilion, Japper, etc when it comes to the intricacies of analysis. But that doesn't mean I'm stupid either. To me the DRIP Port practises a bit of a contrarian balanced approach which I think is good. While everyone was busy buying PEPSI this year, I stopped buying it and concentrated on my COKE. What PEPSI I have is way up but PEPSI is off it's high. COKE announced yesterday it expects to meet expectations and grow 4-5% next year when the S&P is expected to shrink 5%. Gee, I wonder what'll happen?

If all we do on these boards is compare figures it's going to be pretty dull around here.

As for what I've learned from the FOOL:

In 1993 I had been bedridden and out of work for 3 years. When my disability pension kicked in I had just enough money to make a down payment on a home. After that I dove into the library and read everything I could on money and especially books from the FOOL. I paid the mortgage off in 3 1/2 years, am totally debt free, bought a new car (cash) , computer (cash), cruised (cash) all this year and can make the same statement about the size of my portfolio that Vulstock did. I did this on a disability pension with my wife only working part time. I think that's pretty coherent. The only philosophy I've used is to find good companies and concentrate my investments when they're off their yearly highs (Buy low).

The FOOL has definitely helped me to identify elements that make for good companies.

OperaBob






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Author: Kcourt Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20844 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/29/2001 1:42 PM
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As far as the Motley Fools are concerned - their basic philosopohy is buy and hold quality. This is the way I have been investing for a number of years and it does pay off, even in lean times. Even with the downturn of the current market, I am way ahead where I was in 1994.

Kathy

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Author: doowah Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20846 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/29/2001 2:36 PM
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Actually, I think that the value is not in the individual selections but the educational process.

I agree completely. But the jest of my post was that that process of education is being furthered not by TMF but by the individuals who post on this site and others like it.

As for Intel and Campbell:
The money is Randy's and Jeff's. Everything at the FOOL tells you to do your own due dilligence. Are you blindly copying them?


Of course not. I don't blindly follow anybody. With all due respect, I take exception to the question.


What's wrong with the INTEL purchase? Do you believe INTEL will be here in 15 years? If you do and you believe in the defensiveness of DCAing long term then right now is a good time to buy (and I have sent extra and larger cheques to them recently).Your thinking should be 15 years down the road.

There is nothing wrong with Intel. I almost added a line in my original post that said, "Their is a strong case to be made buying Intel. But, it makes more sense to buy with a dollar cost average mindset than owning it in a DRIP portfolio." You just confirmed that point. Thanks.

Dude, I'm not sure if your comment re: my coherence was a shot or meant as humour (I'll assume humour).

Of course it was a joke. My goodness Bob, the way you offer good-natured and humorous digs at a multitude of posters, I thought you would appreciate a little kidding.

If all we do on these boards is compare figures it's going to be pretty dull around here.

Hence my attempt at humor.

As for what I've learned from the FOOL:
In 1993 I had been bedridden and out of work for 3 years. When my disability pension kicked in I had just enough money to make a down payment on a home. After that I dove into the library and read everything I could on money and especially books from the FOOL. I paid the mortgage off in 3 1/2 years, am totally debt free, bought a new car (cash) , computer (cash), cruised (cash) all this year and can make the same statement about the size of my portfolio that Vulstock did. I did this on a disability pension with my wife only working part time. I think that's pretty coherent.


Again, it was a joke. I assumed that someone such as yourself who enjoys dishing it out could appreciate a little levity. Sorry, it will never happen again.

The only philosophy I've used is to find good companies and concentrate my investments when they're off their yearly highs (Buy low).
The FOOL has definitely helped me to identify elements that make for good companies.


Did the FOOL do it? Or, did the info you gleamed from individual posters herein do it? That was the jest of my post.
For my part, I think it was the latter. FWIW.

Dude







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Author: GLSmyth Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20847 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/29/2001 3:28 PM
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Well, I can address a few points here.

Anyone recall the cornerstone of TMF - The Foolish Four! Even they admitted that the theory was baseless and there was no correlation between buying those 4 stocks and beating the market average on a yearly basis.

The Foolish Four worked quite well. However, as I stated quite some time back, the addition of Microsoft and Intel to the DOW changed the dynamics od the strategy. This was because the two least likely companies to ever be selected into the Foolish Four were Intel and Microsoft (the former pay a pittance for dividends, the latter, no dividends at all). This being the case, had one held equal amounts of the two companies, they would have beat the Foolish Four in nine of the ten years in the 1990-1999 timeframe.

And, with all due respect to those who DRIP it - Intel!

What's wrong with Intel? It is that their stock price is currently down? You see, there's this thing called a Bear Market that we are currently experiencing, as well as the melting of the dot.coms. Yes, these things do have something to do with the company's stock price - it is rather difficult (read "impossible") to only move in a northerly direction.

What is Intel's outlook for the future? I would say pretty good. Do Intel DRiPpers have an opportunity to purchase at a low price? Yup. So where's the problem? If I were looking at things in the context of an outright purchase or short-term consideration, then I would agree that Intel would not have been a good idea. However, since we are dollar-cost purchasing over the course of the next decade plus, the mindset needs to be different.

Lastly, I watched one of their Gardner Brothers public television hourly specials the other night and it was mildly entertaing but the only thing I gleamed from it in an hour was "get out of debt" and "did you know you can call your credit card company and ask them to lower your interest rate." I mean, it was hardly cutting edge stuff folks.

When you look at the average amount Americans have put themselves in debt, it is quite unfortunate that getting out of debt for most people really is cutting edge stuff.

Cheers -

george

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Author: doowah Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20850 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/29/2001 4:51 PM
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The Foolish Four worked quite well.

If it was a valid investment vehicle and worked so well, why did TMF disavow it and admit they were wrong in touting it?

What's wrong with Intel?

Absolutely nothing. It is a great company. I own it and I DCA it when appropiate. But it has no business being included in a DRIP portfolio. Why? Because, to use you very own words, the former(Intel) pays a pittance for dividends. You hit on the head - it pays almost nothing in dividends. So little that you your self describe it as a pittance. DRIP portfolio's should by their very nature require dividends for compounding growth. By all means buy Intel for growth but don't buy it for it's dividend re-investment potential. Pittance.

When you look at the average amount Americans have put themselves in debt, it is quite unfortunate that getting out of debt for most people really is cutting edge stuff.

I couldn't agree more. The average American is a credit card junkie swimming in a sea of debt. Sad. Very Sad.

Dude



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Author: dfish Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20851 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/29/2001 5:00 PM
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Dude,

Their is a strong case to be made buying Intel. But, it makes more sense to buy with a dollar cost average mindset than owning it in a DRIP portfolio.

I understand what you're getting at, but this statement seems a little off target, since a DRIP portfolio is the perfect vehicle for dollar-cost averaging. The fact that Intel offers automatic monthly debits means that its plan is actually built for just such an approach. I have a monthly debit from my checking account go into buying Intel, a.k.a. automatic dollar-cost averaging.

Again, it was a joke.
Don't get the idea that the responses have been overdone. Humor is usually appreciated, but text postings don't always convey that. If there are two things that have been important about the boards, they are:
1. Don't blindly follow anyone's moves or advice.
2. Keep things in perspective, including the ability to laugh about it.

dave fish/moneypaper
P.S. Three...there's three things...don't blindly follow; laugh a bit; and that whole "enrich" part. That's it...three things. And learning! Four things...;)


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Author: KingMob Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20853 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/29/2001 6:40 PM
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It is a great company. I own it and I DCA it when appropiate. But it has no business being included in a DRIP portfolio.

Dude, so what you are suggesting to us is that we should be buying Intel shares, dollar cost averaging, through a broker...? Even if the dividend is a pittence, every dollar, every penny counts in the end. Plus, all future DRIP purchases are commission-free, while purchases made through a broker aren't.

So while you are paying a broker a pittence to buy more shares, we'll use that money to continue to grow in our chosen company.

Keith...

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Author: azriel One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20854 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/29/2001 7:19 PM
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Whether the TMF Drip Port is a success or failure would depend on its stated goals, which I am a little unsure of. If it is meant to be a grand model, a paradigm to be admired and emulated, then I think Campbell Soup was a poor choice of a food stock and Mellon was a poor choice of a bank stock (and I think this was evident when the choices were made). Intel's inclusion is a hangover of tech mania IMHO, much as all the tulips in the Netherlands are reminders of the tulip bulb mania that once gripped that nation and nearly incapacitated it.

I agree that the forums are the most valuable part of the web site.



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Author: OperaBob Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20855 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/29/2001 8:35 PM
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Dude,

I "rec" ed your post. Unfortunately, sometimes it's hard to tell humour from a sentence on a page. Please feel free to take your "best shots" from now on. As I said, I took it as humour, although I admit I stated my case strongly in case it wasn't.

There is nothing wrong with Intel. I almost added a line in my original post that said, "Their is a strong case to be made buying Intel. But, it makes more sense to buy with a dollar cost average mindset than owning it in a DRIP portfolio." You just confirmed that point. Thanks.

I'm not understanding your argument here. It seems you're saying DCA it but not in a DRIP Portfolio, which is what the DRIP Portfolio is designed to do. If you could give me a clearer understanding, most appreciated. I'm not disagreeing with you here. I genuinely do not understand what you're saying.

I agree completely. But the jest of my post was that that process of education is being furthered not by TMF but by the individuals who post on this site and others like it.

Well you'll have your own opinion and I'll have mine and we're both right. I don't follow individual TMFs advice. I don't think I'm supposed to. If I did then they'd be GoRoos which is very unFOOLish. For me, the FOOL is there as a resource and to help me build my own skills to make my own choices. Lord knows a broker won't want to teach me. The FOOL is about empowerment not stock selection.

Did the FOOL do it? Or, did the info you gleamed from individual posters herein do it? That was the jest of my post.
For my part, I think it was the latter. FWIW.


For my part it was the library and I gravitated to FOOLISH thought. But I'll add Otar, Carlson, Fisher, CanadianMoneySaver, MP Publications into the mix as well into the mix. I certainly have learned a lot from all the posters but me underlying philosophy is based on a FOOLish foundation.

Sorry, it will never happen again.

To h*ll with that! Lay on McDude! We're on each other's hit lists now good buddy! I expect it now! Be prepared ;-)

Sorry too. I over reacted.

Bob








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Author: OperaBob Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20856 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/29/2001 8:56 PM
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Dude,

Ok, got your explanation in a later post.

I gather you're saying you think INTEL doesn't belong in the DRIP Portfolio because it only pays a small dividend.

However, when you look at it DRIP is an incorrect designation that because of popularity is the common usage.

Brokers and some Cos. offer true DRIPs. That is they only reinvest dividends.

What we call a DRIP is really what TransAlta calls a DRASP:

Dividend ReInvestment and Stock Purchase Plan.

So even though we call it a DRIP Portfolio it's really a DRASP Portfolio and the philosophy is to make the best of reinvestments and small dollar purchases. So Intel fits for me. But let's face it it's more fun to say we DRIP than DRASP.

OB

BTW: Tried to e-mail you but got a failure notice. Just wanted to let you know that behind the boards I communicate a fair amount with the people who mutually skewer each other. Sorry I misinterpreted your humour.

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Author: KingMob Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20857 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/29/2001 9:20 PM
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So even though we call it a DRIP Portfolio it's really a DRASP Portfolio and the philosophy is to make the best of reinvestments and small dollar purchases.

Actually, the title -- "DRASP Port" -- was already used by Michael Crichton for a best selling book that eventually became a trilogy of movies by Steven Spielberg.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345370775/qid=1001812675/sr=2-10/ref=sr_8_7_10/107-3219805-4807758

Or something like that... ;)

Keith...

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Author: GinnyW Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20858 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/29/2001 10:06 PM
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Dude,
I think also that TMF portfolios leave a lot to be desired. But they have put them out there for people to learn from. They have also taught us how to think for ourselves or have given us the courage to do so.
I learned about drips on this site. I also like the boards and the others on here to bounce ideas off of each other. I think the forum is the most important part of the fool so I guess I agree with you there.
And I have to give the Garner brothers credit for creating such a site.
How many of us could have done that?
Ginny


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Author: GinnyW Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20859 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/29/2001 10:24 PM
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Since its late I thought I would reply to myself. I wrote that TMF portfolios leave a lot to be desired...but thats for me. Its their money and for them its probably ok. My portfolio, such that it is would probably be viewed by others as leaving a lot to be desired also.
I drip some stocks that pay very little in dividends...INTC, DCI and MDT. I also have some that pay pretty good dividends, I also have a reit. To many stocks? I have 15 and some people would say thats too many but for me its just about right.
We are all individuals with our own individual ideas of which companies offer the best for us. It doesn't matter if no one else or few others think so, its what we think is best for us. And that is what makes a market.
Ginny
(I have been slaving away all day at work saving lives so I missed all this while it was going on.)

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Author: OperaBob Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20860 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/29/2001 10:39 PM
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Dude,

Not trying to educate you here but I thought this old DRIP Report might interest you:

http://www.fool.com/DRIPPort/1997/DRIPPort970815.htm

Jeff looked at the 10 best performing DRIP/DRASPs and found that those that hit the mark had generally amongst the smallest dividends. The highest being 1.9% for Fannie Mae.

So having a small dividend could make for an advantageous selection.

OB

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Author: BigHurt One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20863 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/30/2001 1:09 AM
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dave wrote: "P.S. Three...there's three things...don't blindly follow; laugh a bit; and that whole "enrich" part. That's it...three things. And learning! Four things...;)"


I LOVE The Jerk!

BH


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Author: azriel One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20864 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/30/2001 1:25 AM
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Their is a strong case to be made buying Intel. But, it makes more sense to buy with a dollar cost average mindset than owning it in a DRIP portfolio.

On the one hand, it's nice to have the company contribute toward your efforts by paying a good dividend. On the other hand, until you accumulate a large number of shares, your OCPs will have much more impact on your project than the dividend payments. For example, if you own 2 shares of a stock that pays $1 per year per share in dividends, a single OCP of $50 is gigantic compared to the $2 of dividend payments. The OCP totally eclipses the dividend.









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Author: fishlip181 Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20865 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/30/2001 7:51 AM
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We agree with the response from OperaBob, in that the entire concept from the MF included prudent credit & debit management.

Although we have learned an enormous amount of knowledge about investing in the stock market (our stock positions started with a "zero" balance in 1996), we also equally learned how to manage our money, including the concept of debt-free existence.

Stocks are only one portion of our overall portfolio. Need to see if that pesky Quicken program will help me ascertain a much broader ROI impact which includes "zero" balance credit cards as well as paid off assets like the house & cars on personal cash flow.

We're grateful for that balanced education.

Fishlip:)

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Author: Kcourt Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20866 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/30/2001 9:21 AM
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As for INTC and their small dividends - at least there is a dividend, which gives us the advantage of DCA into a DRIP, without any fees whatsoever. A bargain if you ask me.

Granted the dividend is next to nothing, but I have a few other stocks that pay these measly dividends also, and I continue to buy because they are good investments.

These include: Walgreen Drugs (WAG) - $.035
Home Depot (HD)- $.040
Equifax (EFX) - $.020

Happy DRIPping

Kathy

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Author: GLSmyth Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20868 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/30/2001 10:57 AM
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>The Foolish Four worked quite well.
>
If it was a valid investment vehicle and worked so well, why did TMF disavow it and admit they were wrong in touting it?


I don't know, I didn't read that. I merely offered my reasoning for why the strategy worked so well for so long, then stopped working. Things change.

Cheers -

george

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Author: GLSmyth Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20869 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/30/2001 11:04 AM
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Jeff looked at the 10 best performing DRIP/DRASPs and found that those that hit the mark had generally amongst the smallest dividends. The highest being 1.9% for Fannie Mae.

You can also reference my article, "Dividends Are Not Always Good" (http://www.fool.com/dripport/2000/dripport000718.htm) and "Do You Really Want Dividends?" (http://www.fool.com/dripport/2000/dripport000724.htm).

Cheers -

george

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Author: OperaBob Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20870 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/30/2001 11:12 AM
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>The Foolish Four worked quite well.
>
If it was a valid investment vehicle and worked so well, why did TMF disavow it and admit they were wrong in touting it?

I don't know, I didn't read that. I merely offered my reasoning for why the strategy worked so well for so long, then stopped working. Things change.


One of the original reasons given for abandoning it was the inclusion of non-dividend paying stocks like Microsoft in the last reorganization of the DOW 30. The FOOLish 4 relied on taking advantage of dividend payout in the DOW 30.

OB


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Author: doowah Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20871 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/30/2001 12:37 PM
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Yo OpBob,
No blood, no foul, no harm done. All is well. You and your sock puppets don't scare me. Bring 'em on.

To everyone else:
I am so thankful for the lessons that I have been taught on the MF boards. I still am not convinced that the Brothers Gardner know of what they speak. Too often, it seems their approach is - ok, that didn't work, how about this? But they did have the foresight to provide a forum that allowed us to exchange our thoughts. And for that I am most grateful.

As far as the wisdom of buying a non-paying (or almost) dividend stock in a Dividend Reinvestment port, I'm working on it. I see your point but I just can't get my mind around it. Anyway, it was a good thread. My best to one and all.

Dude

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Author: OperaBob Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20873 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/30/2001 4:43 PM
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Dude,

You and your sock puppets don't scare me. Bring 'em on.



Stitch and Lefty are at the gym pumping irons as we speak.

steam irons.

OB

BTW I think it was George Fisher that started the sock puppet thing. Credit to him. (Or was it Dave?).

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Author: Vulstock Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20874 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/30/2001 5:58 PM
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You and your sock puppets don't scare me. Bring 'em on.


Stitch and Lefty are at the gym pumping irons as we speak.


After sweating in the gym, the smell could be deadly.


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Author: nsausa Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20875 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/30/2001 6:16 PM
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Hey Dude,

I have been lurking and watching this thread play out. my 2 cents:

I don't read - follow - the MF bunch very closely. Unlike many who advocate DRIPs and long term investing, I search the market for value over DRIP investing. DRIPs is only a tool one can use to purchase stocks, not an investment philosphy. Value is the key word in investing, not DRIPs. Go back to the masters (Graham and Buffett) and they talk about buying value rather tha using a specific tool to build a position.

Within the world of 1700 DRIPs, there are some with great value and others that have poor current valuations. Stocks will also move in and out of their "buy" value based on price, earnings and earnings growth. The key to successful investing is to locating value in todays market and that changes almost every day. What was a value stock last week may not be today.

I know some blindly buy the same stocks regardless of price / value, and I believe that is an error.

Having a diversified portfilio of 10 or more DRIPs in different industrial sectors and a understanding of how to identify value will lead a DRIP investor to contribute to some positions this month and others next. That is the crux of my stock recommendations - finding current value for long term investors who happen to be DRIPpers.

I think the best aspect of the MF is the free exchange of ideas on these boards.

Concerning the MF boys, I'll tell you it is very difficult to write broad based financial articles as your readers are at different levels of investing education. For example, developing a discounted cash flow model is easy for some and very difficult for others. The MF has also been great at promoting the idea of an investor needing to develop their own stratagies and independent thinking based on tried and true methods of evaluating management and stock prices.

Great initial post and keep up the good work

Geo Fisher
Power Investing w/ DRIPs
ps I think someone asked a while ago the names of my wayward socks. They are - AF (athletes foot), Stinky, Holey, Fraid, and Hangnail. If you see them, please send them home. I have petitoned sock manufacturers to begin listing "Lost Socks" on their packaging (the milk guys turned me down)

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Author: nsausa Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20876 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/30/2001 6:18 PM
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OB,

"BTW I think it was George Fisher that started the sock puppet thing. Credit to him. (Or was it Dave?). "

Rather embarassingly, I think it was me.

anonmyous



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Author: nsausa Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20877 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/30/2001 6:32 PM
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Hey Dude,

And another thing... don't look just at dividends, but at dividend growth. For example (one I use in my book) in 1988 Merck MRK was offering a 2.5% yield (split adjusted). It now yield around 1.6%. However, the dividend has gone up from $0.27 to $1.12 and would be yielding over 10% of the original investment for those who bought in 1988.

Look at 3, 5, 10 year dividend growth over current yield.

Hope this helps,

Geo Fisher

here sockie, sockie. where are you hiding?

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Author: OperaBob Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20878 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/30/2001 8:44 PM
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George,

Value is the key word in investing, not DRIPs.

Stocks will also move in and out of their "buy" value based on price, earnings and earnings growth. The key to successful investing is to locating value in todays market and that changes almost every day. What was a value stock last week may not be today.

I know some blindly buy the same stocks regardless of price / value, and I believe that is an error.

Having a diversified portfilio of 10 or more DRIPs in different industrial sectors and a understanding of how to identify value will lead a DRIP investor to contribute to some positions this month and others next.


Darn it George, why didn't you say it that way before. Now I agree with ya! ;-)

But for the smaller investor with less bucks than you and Vulstock I think it's important to pick the right few now and then diversify as holdings increase.

Might be hard to start with 10 and with only small amounts suddenly find you need to liquidate. Just a difference in outlook. I'd rather concentrate on quality first and diversification second.

OB

BTW Holey is hangin' with Dave Fish I believe (at the Crystal Blue Cheers Bar in Boston).



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Author: OperaBob Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20879 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/30/2001 8:47 PM
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George,


"BTW I think it was George Fisher that started the sock puppet thing. Credit to him. (Or was it Dave?). "

Rather embarassingly, I think it was me.

anonmyous


Well if you're that embarassed you won't mind me stealing the idea for my book (if I ever get around to writing one that is!).

OB



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Author: doowah Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20880 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/30/2001 8:53 PM
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ps I think someone asked a while ago the names of my wayward socks. They are - AF (athletes foot), Stinky, Holey, Fraid, and Hangnail. If you see them, please send them home. I have petitoned sock manufacturers to begin listing "Lost Socks" on their packaging (the milk guys turned me down)

LOL. I think my favorite is Fraid.

Thanks for the tip on dividend growth.

Dude
PS My father-in-law is a crusty old stock investor and I told him of my interest in DRIP's and he said "then you should look up the writings of a man named George Fisher." When I told him not only did I have your book but that you regularly answered my queries online, he seemed pleased with me. Then, being the tight old Scotsman that he is, he asked to borrow the book. I told him I had loaned it out to this incoherent Canadian guy who subsequently lost it while ice fishing. Alas.


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Author: azriel One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20881 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/30/2001 10:33 PM
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As far as the wisdom of buying a non-paying (or almost) dividend stock in a Dividend Reinvestment port, I'm working on it.

Pro-dividend arguments are made eloquently on page 20 and page F3 of the October 1 Barron's.

Be careful - this anti-dividend bias is partly just a fad, like tattoos and body piercings.

Internet message boards may be more dangerous than you imagine to your investment dollars. Pages 23-24 of the new book Investment Madness by John Nofsinger looks at the dangers and uses a TMF board as an example.





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Author: nsausa Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20882 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 9/30/2001 11:53 PM
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Hey Dude,

"he seemed pleased with me"

As the father of 3 marrying age daughters, a bit of advice - ALWAYS keep your father-in-law-happy.

How 'bout giving him a copy of the book, or a subscription to Power Investing w/ DRIPs (or both), as a gift. No special reason, just a gift. Father-in-laws like gifts-for-no-reason from their otherwise deadbeat son-in-laws. I happen to know where you can obtain such gifts.

I like things crusty and old.

Geo Fisher

ps give my best to your father-in-law



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Author: OperaBob Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20883 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 10/1/2001 12:23 AM
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Dude,

Then, being the tight old Scotsman that he is, he asked to borrow the book. I told him I had loaned it out to this incoherent Canadian guy who subsequently lost it while ice fishing. Alas.


Not lost! Just fuel for the fire on a cold Canadian night.

Wasn't Fraid the name of Baron Harkonnen's favourite nephew? I have a first edition copy of "Dune" hardback signed by Frank Herbert. I have no idea what it's worth.

Also a mint condition "Necromomicon" by H.R. Giger on which the "Alien" monster was based. No idea on it either.

Had all the Marvel #1s, Fantastic Four, Hulk, Spidey, Iron Man, X-Men, Thor, Daredevil, Thor, etc. until my father got mad at me as a kid and gave my collection to my cousin who promptly traded them all in for other comics. I love to show my father the current prices.

The remainder of my collection was burgled about '93, just after we bought our home. I got about $3000 insurance which was used for my first investments. Wasn't til about '96 when I got into DRIPs.

OB

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Author: dfish Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20885 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 10/1/2001 1:01 AM
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OB,

BTW Holey is hangin' with Dave Fish I believe (at the Crystal Blue Cheers Bar in Boston).

Nope...no stray sock puppets here! BTW...I think the sock puppet started when I said something about Pets.com going bankrupt and that I'd miss that sock puppet...and George picked up on it and incoporated the notion into the Certificate Folding controversy. But then again, it's all pretty fuzzy...:)

d.



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Author: dfish Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20886 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 10/1/2001 1:07 AM
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OB,

Well if you're that embarassed you won't mind me stealing the idea for my book (if I ever get around to writing one that is!).

Would that be "The History of Sock Puppets" or "Death of a Sock Puppet?"

How about "Revenge of the Sock Puppet?"

d.


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Author: nsausa Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20888 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 10/1/2001 9:27 AM
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D,

"But then again, it's all pretty fuzzy...:)"

You are fuzzy, I'm dusty... what a pair we would make.

Geo Fisher

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Author: OperaBob Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20889 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 10/1/2001 10:03 AM
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You are fuzzy, I'm dusty... what a pair we would make.

I wanna be GOOFY! A yuh! A Yuh!



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Author: TMFJeff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star SC1 Red Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20891 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 10/1/2001 12:26 PM
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Dude,

You keep bad-mouthing Intel in Drip Port because it doesn't pay a significant dividend. But the Drip Port was never about just dividends. We said from the start that we'd buy some stocks seeking capital appreciation (more than anything else) and some in large part for the healthy dividend. Intel was bought for long-term capital appreciation. I don't think we'll be disappointed. While the Nasdaq has dropped 70%, we're only down about 20% on Intel and continue to average in.

Foolishly,

Jeff

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Author: TMFJeff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star SC1 Red Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20892 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 10/1/2001 12:29 PM
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azriel,

Intel's inclusion in the Drip Port is not a hangover from the tech mania day. When Intel was first bought by us in 1997 it was extremely out of favor -- the cheap PC was the new king and Intel's margins were going to get crushed. We bought Intel when it was beaten down and the outlook (most believed) was quite poor.

Campbell was a poor choice at the price. We've written about that many times. Our mistake.

I believe Mellon was a strong choice in financial services (it's not a "bank" stock) and I'm happy with its long-term potential and performance so far.

Foolishly,

Jeff

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Author: dfish Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20894 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 10/1/2001 12:55 PM
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Geo F,

You are fuzzy, I'm dusty...

I always wondered what you should call it when the dust bunnies/buffaloes merge with the lint monsters...

d.


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Author: Odee Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20896 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 10/1/2001 1:14 PM
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I even had an experience with one broker myself and a friend were both using. She called my friend to say, "Something is rotten with ABC Co. We need to sell right now." The next call was to me to say, "I think ABC Co. would be good for you." Needless to say I don't use that broker anymore.

OB,

Clearly that was a Canadian broker - they wouldn't do that in the U.S.

Odee LOL!

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Author: OperaBob Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20897 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 10/1/2001 6:22 PM
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Odee,

Clearly that was a Canadian broker - they wouldn't do that in the U.S.


Yes, but they seem to be learning from you. Last week they, a full service broker, announced "inactivity fees" for unregistered accounts, unless the account was made up of mutual funds of course.

Nesbitt Burns

OB

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Author: Egerius One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20898 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 10/1/2001 7:49 PM
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I consider the Motley Fool to be an invaluable resource for the individual investor at all stages of his or her investing career (beginning, intermediate, advanced, sedentary). It has a veritable goldmine of information, strategies, and common sense suggestions on investing for years. In the tidal wave of self-serving and distorted financial news media, TMF is a welcome and trustworthy oasis. The only "economic commentator" or investment guru in which I place the degree of trust I do in TMF is Louis Rukeyser of WSW.

Egerius


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Author: doowah Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20953 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 10/5/2001 4:09 PM
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I consider the Motley Fool to be an invaluable resource for the individual investor at all stages of his or her investing career (beginning, intermediate, advanced, sedentary).

Not to beat a dead horse, but is it the MF that is invaluable to you or is it those individual (non-MFers) who post here that you find invaluable.

It has a veritable goldmine of information, strategies, and common sense suggestions on investing for years.

Agreed - although some of those strategies have been shot down in flames.

In the tidal wave of self-serving and distorted financial news media, TMF is a welcome and trustworthy oasis.

I honestly don't mean to be confrontational but do you honestly think the MF is not in this thing to make a buck? It seems like everyday they e-mail with yet another $99 a year deal "for my financial well-being." That's sort of self-serving. Don't you think?

Dude

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Author: Egerius One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20960 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 10/6/2001 11:28 AM
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Doowah:

To answer your questions:

(1.) Both--I have found links to useful information here as well as occasionally valuable, or at least, unique insights from the posters on the TMF discussion boards. Through the Drip boards and the Socially Responsible Investing board, I found links to information that is (surprise, surprise) not often found at more commercially-orientated financial websites. Most valuable to me, though, have been the informational features at TMF which--with a remarkable freedom from jargonese and a heavy dose of plain, old-fashioned common sense--teach average blockheads like myself the basics of investing. The Fool School features--such as Investing Basics, 13 Steps to Investing Foolishing, the Buy and Hold Apocalypse, How to Value Stocks, and Drip Investing--were crucial and invaluable in helping me understand how investing works and in designing my long-term, buy-and-hold portfolio of drip stocks and government bonds. I did not rely solely on TMF, but their Stock Research feature with its links to Market Guide and Multiex [sic] helped me round out on my research on individual stocks when I used them in conjunction with Quicken.com, SmartMoney.com, ResponsibleShopper, the various SRI websites, and the company lists at Moneypaper and NAIC. So, the answer to your first question is yes, both.

(2.) Yes, some of their strategies have not floated well in the turbulent and swiftly changing seas of Wall Street. The Foolish Four and the Dogs of the Dow come to mind as two that have not weathered the current bear market successfully. However, others have held up rather well or are only depressed because of current bear market conditions. Rule Maker, Drip Port, Rule Breaker, Index-Plus--all are still viable investment strategems for riding out the long-term fluctuations in the global markets. They were designed to be just that--long-term, dollar-cost averaging, compounding-based strategies for the gradual building of wealth. Over the past two years since the bursting of the Tech Bubble, their has been a rash of obituaries and epitaphs given in the financial news media--and even in some of the TMF articles-- celebrating the demise of buy-and-hold investing. Yet, these are just a tad premature. Bear markets are notorious for their gloom-and-doom pessimism and their engendering of short-sightedness when it comes to rebalancing portfolios. Every downturn in the economy, however short in duration, always brings cries--some gleeful and other mournful--over the alleged demise of long-term investment. Yet, as some of the best minds on Wall Street have pointed out and documented with ample research, it is patience, persistence, resourceness, and thoroughness that pays off in the long run. Philip Caret, Philip Fisher, Benjamin Graham, Jeremy Siegel, Warren Buffet, Peter Lynch--and of course, our resident pundits at TMF--all agree on these two fundamental truths about investing--(1) the historical trend of the stock market has always been upward despite the occasional dips; and (2) those who are patient and reluctant to sell if the underlying fundamentals are sound are the ones who reap the largest rewards in the end. Yes, some of TMF wilder ideas have not worked out nor stood the test of time. But TMF's ideas and strategies are not set in stone like Code of Hammurabi or some Wall Street guru's "buy" recommendations. TMF, like investing itself, in an ongoing, experimental, trial-and-error process were both the founders and the posters share information and suggestions. I found its focus to be practical and flexible with a nose for searching for what works then what sounds profound. And, IMHO, its more sensible and sounder investment strategies--such as Rule Maker and the Drip Port, will stand the test the time. For a patient investor willing to do his or her own homework yet remain flexible and alert, bear markets and recessions are just extended buying opportunities.

(3.) Of course TMF is in this for the money. They don't write all those books and research reports for free; nor do they invest their own money in their porfolios just for fun alone. And, yes, they do bombard their members with offers for seminars and reports. And, yes, they do take some advertising revenue from discount brokers. They have to pay their website expenses some way, and they want to make money, just as those who log onto TMF do. When I say they are "not self-serving" I mean they are not dependent on, and therefore are under no obligation to fawn over, those less-than-candid souls who are the darlings of CNBC and Moneyline--mutual fund managers, investment bankers, full-service brokers, or the market gurus and pundits who either work for these concerns or obtain a large percentage of their livelihood from them. TMF--in spite of the email offers and the recent emergence of pop-up ads (that scourge of the Internet)--gives good value for what little it takes in for revenue. TMF was founded with the individual investor in mind; with the idea of giving the individual investor useful and practical advice and information for making financial decisions. That remains TMF's focus despite the nagging and growing necessity for it to meet expenses and find a means to be profitable. I would point out that TMF is one of the few such Internet services not to charge fees for membership; and offer the bulk of its articles and information freely without strings attached. That is more than can be said for the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, or even Morningstar or ValueLine. The financial offers TMF does make (online or via email) are made as optional and voluntary purchases for its members--there is no requirement that members order them; nor any retribution or backlash by TMF to members who do not place orders. You can still make use of TMF's discussion boards, stock research, and online information features scot-free if you choose. Whether TMF can keep on offering all this on a fee-free basis given its present financial woes remains to be seen. But, unlike most online investment websites, I found TMF to be largely investor-orientated, candid, plain-speaking, and willing to offering differing viewpoints and pro-and-con information from multiple angles. As long as TMF can keep itself largely free from dependence on pundits and the kinds of advertising revenue that other financial news media sources rely on; then it will continue to be a worthwhile and (generally) trustworthy source of investment information.

Egerius



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Author: Egerius One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 20961 of 27821
Subject: Re: TMF evaluation Date: 10/6/2001 11:31 AM
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Arrgh-typos:

resourceness=resourcfulness

their=there

etc., etc., etc.


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