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Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 308517  
Subject: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/18/2011 4:02 PM
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http://boards.fool.com/nyt-how-a-financial-pro-lost-his-hous...

I thought this was an interesting thread. I guess the people on this board who like to throw stones/judge others are absolutely perfect themselves.
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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303623 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/18/2011 4:05 PM
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I guess the people on this board who like to throw stones/judge others are absolutely perfect themselves.

I don't know about the others but I'm perfect.

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Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303626 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/18/2011 4:45 PM
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What I'm getting at is sometimes a person finds themselves in a bind. Yes, I made a decision to get credit cards and yes, I probably became addicted to them. BUT those credit cards were never used for 'stuff'. It's not like I used them on wild shopping sprees or to live extravagantly. They were used for day-to-day things like utilities, food or gasoline at a time in my life when my income was low.

Have I made every effort I can to pay them back? Yes, I have. I've also made every effort I can to work with the CC companies with very little luck.

I am not walking away from this debt light-heartedly. I'm doing this after very careful consideration, investigating my options and looking at the priorities in my life. At this time, those priorities are transportation, food and shelter -- the bare essentials.

So to those of you who consider me a 'thief' -- before you cast stones, take a look at the situations in your life in which you are being a thief. You may not 'steal' from CC companies, may not cheat on your taxes and all your bills are paid on time, but I'm willing to bet you are 'stealing' time and energy from other people, businesses and situations. There's more than one way to be a thief.

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Author: aj485 Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303627 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/18/2011 5:25 PM
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What I'm getting at is sometimes a person finds themselves in a bind. Yes, I made a decision to get credit cards and yes, I probably became addicted to them. BUT those credit cards were never used for 'stuff'. It's not like I used them on wild shopping sprees or to live extravagantly. They were used for day-to-day things like utilities, food or gasoline at a time in my life when my income was low.

Have I made every effort I can to pay them back? Yes, I have. I've also made every effort I can to work with the CC companies with very little luck.


I disagree that you made every effort to pay them back. You chose to borrow to buy a 2 year old car and are choosing to pay that loan back rather than paying back the credit card companies you had already borrowed from. You PUT YOURSELF in that bind - you didn't FIND YOURSELF in it. You could have purchased a cheaper car that would have run a few years while you paid off your credit card debt.

So, yes, I think you are being unethical by defaulting on the credit cards after borrowing to buy a car.

AJ

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303628 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/18/2011 5:52 PM
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I disagree that you made every effort to pay them back. You chose to borrow to buy a 2 year old car and are choosing to pay that loan back rather than paying back the credit card companies you had already borrowed from. You PUT YOURSELF in that bind - you didn't FIND YOURSELF in it. You could have purchased a cheaper car that would have run a few years while you paid off your credit card debt.
Exactly.

I have only bought one car in my life for over $10K. And that was for cash. And at a time that I had NO OTHER DEBT. None. Not even a mortgage. So I could afford to allocate thousands of dollars to a new car. There's is no way in the world I would EVER take on a car loan for a new or almost new car if I had other debt. I just bought a great car for $2900. It will get me a few good years of driving for cheap.

You chose to take on new debt for a car rather than pay your old creditors. That is far from making "every effort" to pay the credit card balances owed.

You have made choices that have and are making things worse for you financially. You may feel badly about that. And about reactions you are getting, but these are your decisions. You just stepped up and took on thousands of dollars in NEW DEBT. By doing so, you are paying for an almost new car with money that should be going to pay for things you bought, used, said you would pay for and now will not pay for.

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Author: SooozFool Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303629 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/18/2011 7:43 PM
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I'm willing to bet you are 'stealing' time and energy from other people, businesses and situations.

Bull.

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Author: idlenote One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303630 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/18/2011 9:28 PM
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While I understand the gentleman's post, as a financial planner I think he is not someone I would want to deal with. He got himself into the mess and it was his place to get himself out of it. To take a short sale was to pass his mistake onto someone else. As a customer of Wells Fargo I paid part of his cost by what I did not make on my investments with them due to their losses.

We got ourselves into a financial mess back in the early 00's and we paid every penny of it back. We did not ask for anything from anyone else and we take no pride from fulfilling our obligations, that was what we had to do.

We sold the big house before we the market collapsed and moved into a very small house. Screamed at me every day what a fool we had been, but you would never have caught me sitting outside on a bucket looking in at the family eating.

Things have improved since then, we were transferred, bought a much nicer house, put 2/3 down, and we could pay it off whenever we are ready. I believe that may be called responsibility. Took years to figure it out, but when someone comes here and accuses us of being "self-righteous", well I do believe you could be out of line.

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303631 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/18/2011 9:35 PM
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What I'm getting at is sometimes a person finds themselves in a bind. Yes, I made a decision to get credit cards and yes, I probably became addicted to them. BUT those credit cards were never used for 'stuff'. It's not like I used them on wild shopping sprees or to live extravagantly. They were used for day-to-day things like utilities, food or gasoline at a time in my life when my income was low.

I used to tell myself the same thing while I was accumulating a massive amount of debt. Eventually I realized that it doesn't matter. Debt is debt. It doesn't care what you spend the money on.

There is only one way to turn it around. Live below your means. Spend less than your income. Until reducing your debt on a month-to-month basis is a *must*, you won't do it. Trust me. I've been there. I hit my breaking point and got to the point where I absolutely was not willing to live like that any more.

After a few years, I was debt-free, and I still am. Now I continue to accumulate cash and investments while remaining debt-free. It all started with an iron commitment to living below my means. In my case, *well* below my means.

I'm not aware of a single case where someone was heavily in debt and didn't make a significant mental shift before getting out of debt. The people who have made the shift can immediately recognize when someone has *not* made the shift.

I wish you luck.

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Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303633 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/19/2011 11:46 AM
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So, yes, I think you are being unethical by defaulting on the credit cards after borrowing to buy a car.

**************
Reliable transportation is something I have to have for business (obviously you haven't read my previous threads.) One of the reasons I got into the bad debt situation was because of lack of transportation and my business suffering.

I hope you never find yourself in a bad situation, but I suspect there are other areas in your life that suck.

By the way, the car is actually closer to three years old with a mfg date of December 08.

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Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303634 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/19/2011 11:49 AM
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You have made choices that have and are making things worse for you financially. You may feel badly about that. And about reactions you are getting, but these are your decisions. You just stepped up and took on thousands of dollars in NEW DEBT. By doing so, you are paying for an almost new car with money that should be going to pay for things you bought, used, said you would pay for and now will not pay for.
************
Yup, I did make choices that made things worse for me financially including lots of 'stinkin thinkin'. Now that I'm making wiser choices things are improving.

And actually I don't feel badly about the reactions I'm getting to my decisions. I find the reactions fascinating and am always amazed by human nature -- how people can't just answer a simple question without their judgements and projections getting in the way.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303636 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/19/2011 12:15 PM
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<<You chose to take on new debt for a car rather than pay your old creditors. That is far from making "every effort" to pay the credit card balances owed.

>>


I'm guessing she will "find herself" unable to pay on the newer car eventually as well.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303637 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/19/2011 1:11 PM
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Reliable transportation is something I have to have for business (obviously you haven't read my previous threads.) One of the reasons I got into the bad debt situation was because of lack of transportation and my business suffering.
I have two cars (at least until I can sell my old Acura). One is 15 years old and has 130K miles. The other is 10 years old and has 135K miles. Both are reliable. Both get me where I want to go.

This brainwashing that one has to go thousands of dollars into debt to get an almost new car because all the others are unreliable is simply nonsense. There are some lemons out there - some are newer. Some are older. Can you get a car that's a money pit? Sure. I wouldn't recommend buying an old Saab for example. But my old Acura (ie Honda)? It's a workhorse of a car.

I hope you never find yourself in a bad situation, but I suspect there are other areas in your life that suck.
I just had almost 1.5 years of almost no work. I certainly didn't buy a car during that time of financial constraint. And yes, everyone has areas in their life of joy and sorrow. But financial woes can be made better or worse depending on choices. They may not go away - bad things happen to us all for sure - but choices matter. You have made some that many of us see as short-term and not sensible.

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Author: wasmick Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303638 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/19/2011 1:24 PM
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And actually I don't feel badly about the reactions I'm getting to my decisions. I find the reactions fascinating and am always amazed by human nature -- how people can't just answer a simple question without their judgements and projections getting in the way.


Clearly.

Honoring ones obligations is for suckers, not special people like you.

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Author: alstroemeria Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303639 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/19/2011 2:23 PM
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lovingrose--no worries, I'm not piling on.

Compared to when I was young and working poor in the 70s, I think it's much harder to cope now. For one thing, I didn't have any credit cards--they were much harder to get in those days. I took cash to the grocery store and mentally added up the cost of my groceries, usually rounding up so I never ran short at checkout. My parents had to help us out a couple of times during severe cold snaps when we couldn't pay a mammoth heating oil bill for our drafty Victorian apartment, despite keeping the heat at 65 daytime and 55-60 at night with young kids in the house. At least the electric bill was never too bad since we had no dryer, freezer, A/C, color TV or other energy hog. When things were extra tight (generally in winter), I put just a few gallons into the car at the gas station and walked on most errands, even with a baby and toddler. We lived out of the pantry and freezer for long periods to keep shopping costs low. No debt, though, because nobody would extend us credit--we couldn't eff up badly even had we wished it.

I feel sympathetic to lovingrose. I've made financial mistakes, too, if none so drastic, and I'd be better off today had I not made them, so I'm not pointing fingers. If LR is a thief, she has a lot of company. In fact she's way back in line behind real estate developers leaving investors/banks/contractors/buyers/whole communities holding the bag, Enron executives, General Motors executives, mortgage writers who encouraged people to lie to get loans--and then sold the loans to make them someone else's problem (eventually the taxpayers' problem), investment banks who bundled and sold these shaky loans as if they were AAA paper...sold them to pension plans for goodness sake. It's a long list.

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Author: TicoHombre Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303640 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/19/2011 2:57 PM
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I feel sympathetic to lovingrose. I've made financial mistakes, too, if none so drastic, and I'd be better off today had I not made them, so I'm not pointing fingers. If LR is a thief, she has a lot of company. In fact she's way back in line behind real estate developers leaving investors/banks/contractors/buyers/whole communities holding the bag, Enron executives, General Motors executives, mortgage writers who encouraged people to lie to get loans--and then sold the loans to make them someone else's problem (eventually the taxpayers' problem), investment banks who bundled and sold these shaky loans as if they were AAA paper...sold them to pension plans for goodness sake. It's a long list.

Me too. Been there and from time to time still make a bone-headed financial move. They are, however, fewer and farther between. Honestly, other than trying to make LR feel better, the list you mention only highlights for me how far we've morally disintegrated as a society.
I'm not comforted by knowing that she's one of many who are willing to "strategically walk away" from their obligations.

People really want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to do things that detrimentally affect the society they live in without their allowing society to judge their actions. Phooey!

You want to sign a contract with a business (owned by investors like me), willing accept our product and terms, then decide you don't want to pay for those goods because it turned out to be a personal inconvenience for you? Then you want me to pay for it twice--once as the business owner, and a second time as a consumer who must now pay a higher price for my goods because you "strategically defaulted (walked away)? Sorry. I too WILL judge those actions as morally wrong. They directly affect me, and I therefore have a right to say so to you!

A society filled with people whose word means nothing is a dangerous society in which to live. They want to steal, lie, cheat, defraud and take advantage of the rest on their own terms: Little or no consequences, no guilt, nothing. Nope. If you come to a public board looking for the means to do this, then prepare for the deserved consequences, read: Judgement.

You can "honey" and "sweety" or deary me with your condescending tone all you want, but it doesn't change what you are...

TicoHombre

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Author: BookishFool Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303641 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/19/2011 4:56 PM
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Sorry, you can only recommend a post to the Best of once.

darn.

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Author: yosemitebean Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303642 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/19/2011 5:27 PM
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lovingrose - What I'm getting at is sometimes a person finds themselves in a bind. Yes, I made a decision to get credit cards and yes, I probably became addicted to them. BUT those credit cards were never used for 'stuff'. It's not like I used them on wild shopping sprees or to live extravagantly. They were used for day-to-day things like utilities, food or gasoline at a time in my life when my income was low.

----------------------------------------------------------------

.....I cut up ALL of my credit cards over a dozen years ago after paying them off. I now have only one debit card I use and thats it. I live within my means, and my life is FAR less stressful now. I don't have to worry about anyone stealing my identity anymore. Prior to doing this, I had my identity stolen on two different occasions.

.....I don't have a problem with you walking away from your credit obligations ONCE, but I do mind if you do it AGAIN. - Carol

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Author: yosemitebean Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303643 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/19/2011 5:35 PM
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lovingrose - By the way, the car is actually closer to three years old with a mfg date of December 08.

------------------------------------------------------------------

.....I have a 1972 El Camino, a 1994 Chrysler LHS, and a 1996 Dodge Ram 4x4 all of which are paid off, and are all extremely reliable.

.....Depending on what kind of business you have a newer model may be favorable to your business in your opinion, but don't expect people to feel sorry for you when you buy it at the expense of your credit card companies. - Carol

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Author: yosemitebean Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303644 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/19/2011 5:38 PM
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I'm guessing she will "find herself" unable to pay on the newer car eventually as well.



Seattle Pioneer

------------------------------------------------------------------

.....Thats why I said that I don't mind her throwing in the towel ONCE, but these people usually do it again and again, and that is definitely a problem that we ALL pay for. - Carol

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Author: utahtea Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303646 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/19/2011 10:40 PM
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....I cut up ALL of my credit cards over a dozen years ago after paying them off. I now have only one debit card I use and thats it. I live within my means, and my life is FAR less stressful now. I don't have to worry about anyone stealing my identity anymore. Prior to doing this, I had my identity stolen on two different occasions.

Just because you don't have any credit cards doesn't mean you should let down your guard regarding identity theft. IT CAN STILL HAPPEN TO YOU! Yes, you might have done away with one way, but there are still others as long as you have a name, address and social security number!

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/microsites/idtheft/consumers/abou...

Utahtea

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Author: joelcorley Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303647 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/19/2011 10:58 PM
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yosemitebean,

You wrote, .....I cut up ALL of my credit cards over a dozen years ago after paying them off. I now have only one debit card I use and thats it. I live within my means, and my life is FAR less stressful now. I don't have to worry about anyone stealing my identity anymore. Prior to doing this, I had my identity stolen on two different occasions.

Was it your identity? Or did they just swipe your card number and go on a shopping spree in your name?

Either way, changing from a credit card to a debit card does nothing to protect you from either identity theft or simple credit card fraud. Cleaning up from a stolen credit card can be a hassle; but usually cleaning up from a stolen debit card is worse - even if the bank's investigation finds in your favor and they honor the Visa/MC debit card promise.

In any case federal debit card fraud protections are inferior to federal credit card fraud protections - so I'll stick with credit cards and avoid debit cards.

- Joel

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Author: aj485 Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303648 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/19/2011 11:06 PM
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Reliable transportation is something I have to have for business (obviously you haven't read my previous threads.) One of the reasons I got into the bad debt situation was because of lack of transportation and my business suffering.

You have obviously bent your ethics enough to justify to yourself that defaulting on your previous obligations in order to purchase the car is the right thing to do.

Living above your means is living above your means, no matter how you justify it to yourself. If you have to default on your other debt, your 'reliable transportation' is above your means.

I hope you never find yourself in a bad situation, but I suspect there are other areas in your life that suck.

Back in the day, I was unemployed for nearly a year at one point, but I never defaulted on my debt, and I paid off all the debt that I built up during that time, with interest, without asking for any hardship considerations from my credit card companies. And my life is pretty good right now, thank you very much. Sorry to disappoint you.

By the way, the car is actually closer to three years old with a mfg date of December 08.

2 years old or 3 years old - it's apparently still more car than you feel you can afford without defaulting on the rest of your debt. Again, living above your means is living above your means.

AJ

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Author: aj485 Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303649 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/19/2011 11:07 PM
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Now that I'm making wiser choices things are improving.

Buying a car that you can't afford is a wiser decision? I'd hate to see the 'less wise' decisions.......

AJ

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Author: mistybelle Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303650 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/20/2011 2:14 AM
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I hope to make better financial decisions by reading this thread

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Author: umphy Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303652 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/20/2011 7:14 AM
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This "lady" has a BUSINESS...................how would she like to be stiffed on payments...............t*t for tat...nothing' wrong wif dat....;)

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Author: aj485 Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303653 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/20/2011 8:12 AM
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.....I don't have a problem with you walking away from your credit obligations ONCE, but I do mind if you do it AGAIN.

I normally don't mind if people default on debt ONCE either.

However, in this case, the OP purchased the car with a PLAN to default on the credit card debt in order to pay for the car. Here's the thread where she laid out the plan: http://boards.fool.com/greater-hit-29606066.aspx?sort=whole She confirmed several times in the thread that she was going to default on her credit card debt in order to pay for the car, and now she has put this plan into action.

That's fraud, in my book. So, this one I mind, even if it is the first time she is defaulting.

Additionally, at one point she said that she was going to post her numbers for the board to critique so that she might not have to default on the debt. Since she hasn't done so, I can only surmise that she wants to take what she perceives to be the easy way out by defaulting on the debt rather than even trying to pay it off.

AJ

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Author: Beridian Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303654 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/20/2011 9:33 AM
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You want to sign a contract with a business (owned by investors like me), willing accept our product and terms, then decide you don't want to pay for those goods because it turned out to be a personal inconvenience for you? Then you want me to pay for it twice--once as the business owner, and a second time as a consumer who must now pay a higher price for my goods because you "strategically defaulted (walked away)? Sorry. I too WILL judge those actions as morally wrong. They directly affect me, and I therefore have a right to say so to you!


Fair enough. But lets remember that every transaction has two parties. Some fault for these situations (and the overall sick economy) lies with lenders who lent money to marginally qualified borrowers. Some culpability has to be assigned to those who made foolish lending decisions, and they certainly must have been aware of the risks of default.

When I was younger borrowing money was serious business and it was very difficult. Now I hear stories of dogs and 8 year old children receiving applications for credit cards. I am not defending people who default on loans, however the blame lies on both sides of the transaction.

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Author: aj485 Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303655 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/20/2011 9:40 AM
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Fair enough. But lets remember that every transaction has two parties. Some fault for these situations (and the overall sick economy) lies with lenders who lent money to marginally qualified borrowers. Some culpability has to be assigned to those who made foolish lending decisions, and they certainly must have been aware of the risks of default.

So in this case, the one that should be at fault is the lender who lent the OP money to buy the new car, since she was apparently making her credit card payments regularly enough to qualify for that new debt. Yet, the one that is at fault is the one being rewarded by getting the OP's payments, and the lenders who lent the OP money to live on during her hard times (according to her) are the ones who are being defaulted on. How is that being fair?

When I was younger borrowing money was serious business and it was very difficult. Now I hear stories of dogs and 8 year old children receiving applications for credit cards.

Now? Those stories have been around for at least 10 years.

I am not defending people who default on loans, however the blame lies on both sides of the transaction.

In this case, it is a fraud being committed by the OP.

AJ

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Author: yttire Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303656 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/20/2011 12:47 PM
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Lovingrose,

When we take on a debt, we take on a promise which holds threats if we default on it. Those threats are contractual.

These contractual agreements far below other promises- such as those to family, friends, (and for those so inclined, to God).

The purpose of certain promises and agreements taking place outside of contractual bounds, "super contractual agreements" (such as in a Church, or other setting) is simply because contracts are broken.

When an organization decides to lend money, they charge interest rates. They don't charge interest rates solely to make money off of the lending- they charge interest rates to absorb the risk that some of their loans will default. If they charged the same interest rate as the Federal reserve did, such as around 2%, it would be clear that they could not afford to take on any losses. If they charge more like 16% (like most credit cards do), they are expecting that there will be defaulters. In fact it seems they are expecting a rather lot of them.

You can see from the above that not only are the lenders in this situation expecting default- they require default to run their business. If there were no defaults, everyone would turn to the government directly for borrowing at a very low interest rate. This does not happen. Instead, businesses have sprung up to absorb the risk of possible defaults, and in doing so they charge a premium for their borrowing. If no one defaulted, these companies could not exist.

This doesn't mean you should default lightly. You should understand the negative consequences of your default, and weigh them against your ability to repay. And then you should make a contractual choice in your best interest which has already been modeled and accounted for by the lender

Now, if you borrow from a friend, or from a family which does not build in a risk premium, you are in a different position, and I would see this as less of a contractual issue and becoming more of a moral issue. At this point, you are leveraging your relationship which carries with it moral connotation.

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Author: aj485 Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303657 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/20/2011 2:45 PM
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This doesn't mean you should default lightly. You should understand the negative consequences of your default, and weigh them against your ability to repay. And then you should make a contractual choice in your best interest which has already been modeled and accounted for by the lender.

Now, if you borrow from a friend, or from a family which does not build in a risk premium, you are in a different position, and I would see this as less of a contractual issue and becoming more of a moral issue. At this point, you are leveraging your relationship which carries with it moral connotation.


You missed helping the OP justify away the fact that she is defaulting in her original obligations that were in place prior to the obligation that she is choosing to not default on.

I still say she is committing fraud because of that.

AJ

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Author: Crosenfield Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303658 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/20/2011 3:27 PM
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We aren't told the nature of LovingRose's business. In trying to think of something that would justiify her buying a relatively new car when she can't pay the debts she's got, I was trying to think of any business that might come close. If what she needed was transportation to and from work in an office or store where once there she worked all day and came home at night, no way would the 2 or 3 year old car be justified. She would need something that runs and that's it.

Best I could do would be assume she's a real estate agent and must take customers out in her car to look at houses. Of course, people in that business were especially hard hit by the recession and only now are things beginning to look up somewhat.

She may need her car to help portray an image to her customers. Does that justify fraud? No. Could she/should she seek some forbearance from her existing creditors? Probably. Could she have a lot of Ramen noodles for dinner, load up on the 37c turkeys now on sale (roast the turkeys, take meat off bones, freeze in zip-lock bags, use over several months)--save money to help improve cash flow--all of this. To simply walk out on the debt is wrong. Did she NEED the car? Maybe. But I'm pretty hard pressed to find a business that would justify it.

However, when they make a sale, people in the real estate business get a big check all at once. I'd hope at that point she'd start a snowball and work on paying off her existing credit card debts, as well as the car.

If she'd post numbers, we'd all try to help!

Best wishes, Chris

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Author: aj485 Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303659 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/20/2011 10:25 PM
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Best I could do would be assume she's a real estate agent and must take customers out in her car to look at houses. Of course, people in that business were especially hard hit by the recession and only now are things beginning to look up somewhat.

She may need her car to help portray an image to her customers.


I don't think that even a 2 - 3 year old Yaris is the type of vehicle to 'impress' customers. http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/yaris/2009/?sub=hatchback

And in the original thread, she said the previous car that she owned was a 2000 Honda Accord with 240k miles on it, but it needed work http://boards.fool.com/before-your-friend-went-to-iraq-what-...

Guessing that the work it needed was a lot less than the Yaris, though....

If she'd post numbers, we'd all try to help!

I'm guessing that she's already decided on her course of action, and isn't willing to make any changes in order to pay back the credit cards - she'd rather default. It's one of her 'more wise' decisions.

AJ

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Author: Jennlee222 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303660 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/21/2011 8:17 AM
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So when lovingrose's customers start defaulting on goods or services she provides to them just because they'd rather pay for a new car they "need" or something else that they find more important than their obligation to her, then she'll be just fine with that?

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Author: NoIDAtAll Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303661 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/21/2011 9:18 AM
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You missed helping the OP justify away the fact that she is defaulting in her original obligations that were in place prior to the obligation that she is choosing to not default on.

I still say she is committing fraud because of that.

AJ



A court *might* look at it that way as well. One of the questions asked of me by my bankruptcy attorney was how long it had been since I had charged something. She told me that, if it had been less than 6 months, she would need to postpone filing. She also advised me that I shouldn't incur any new debt until after, at least, the Chapter 13 is discharged. She said that she *might* be able to get an exception on a car or home loan, but that she would need to make a request, first.

I get offers for "pre-qulified" credit cards, mostly from HBSC, all the time, now - at least once a week, sometimes 2 or 3... what a waste of paper and postage.

Chase kind of gave me a wake up call, when they increased my minimum monthly payment to 5% of the outstanding balance. I kept up with the payments as long as I could, but found that I couldn't continue to do so, w/o borrowing from other lenders, which pretty much would have amounted to robbing Peter to pay Paul. Chase was also one of the banks that offered me a settlement when my loan repayments went delinquent - I think the settlement they offered was 50%, IIRC. If I had the funds, I probably would have taken it. Citibank also offered a settlement, after I retained an attorney and she sent notices of representation, shortly before the petition was filed. I think their offer was 20 cents on the dollar. I would gladly have accepted their offer, if I could have and gotten other creditors to agree to similar terms... I could foresee the possibility of running into some issues favoring one creditor with a settlement and filing against the rest - I dunno if that is, in fact, the case, but I could foresee the possibility of other creditors protesting to the court my paying a better one-time settlement to one or some lenders than they would get, over time, under the Chapter 13. My attorney advised me, "'They' always do that after we send out the notices."

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Author: VTAlumni Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303662 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/21/2011 12:25 PM
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Reliable transportation is something I have to have for business (obviously you haven't read my previous threads.) One of the reasons I got into the bad debt situation was because of lack of transportation and my business suffering.

I hope you never find yourself in a bad situation, but I suspect there are other areas in your life that suck.

By the way, the car is actually closer to three years old with a mfg date of December 08.


======

fwiw, I had the means, pressures and opportunity to purchase a $30,000 car right out of school after starting my new job. Instead I decided to purchase a 5 year old car for $6,000... it now has 238,000 miles on it now and is still running great.

I always kills me to hear the kinds of cars people drive who are in debt. That (along with house/rent) are the largest factors inhibiting your ability to get out of the hole you're in. Why make car payments, when there are so many options out there that will run just as long and get you from A to B the same for a fraction the cost...

You're going to have a hard to convincing people here you needed (not wanted) that car.

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303663 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/21/2011 12:30 PM
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I think a lot of people are bamboozled into thinking the actually NEED a new car - for their industry expectations, for "reliability," for safety for any number of reasons. But it's all kind of a big up-sell job. It's not a need, it's a want. There are so many safe, reliable older cars out there - precisely because so many people think they have to trade in their old ones and must get new ones all the time.

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Author: Jennlee222 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303664 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/21/2011 1:41 PM
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I think a lot of people are bamboozled into thinking the actually NEED a new car - for their industry expectations, for "reliability," for safety for any number of reasons. But it's all kind of a big up-sell job. It's not a need, it's a want. There are so many safe, reliable older cars out there - precisely because so many people think they have to trade in their old ones and must get new ones all the time.

This.

How many people have posted in this thread that they have older cars that are perfectly reliable? Many. I have a 1999 auto that is pretty reliable. One day yes I found I had a problem with it where I couldn't drive it and it had to be fixed, but my coworker's brand new Nissan left her stranded once or maybe even twice with problems as well. Any car is going to have the potential to have a problem, whether it is 10 years old, 2 years old, or brand new off the lot.

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Author: exeter17 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303665 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/21/2011 2:37 PM
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The late Sir John Templeton, founder of Franklin Templeton Investments liked to say, “The Four most expensive words in the English Language are ‘This time it’s Different.’ “


While I am sorry he lost his house, I wish more people that overextended themselves realizes its the taxes of people like myself that are bailing them out.

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Author: exeter17 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303666 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/21/2011 2:39 PM
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I agree SOOOZ :)


So, I play facebook for 15 minutes at work. I also came in and worked 15 hours this weekend o fix a mainframe issue. Its unpaid since I'm white collar.

So, it should be just as much theft for employers to steal personal time as it is for personal to steal employee time

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303667 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/21/2011 2:46 PM
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So, it should be just as much theft for employers to steal personal time as it is for personal to steal employee time
This is called being on salary. You are - of course - welcome to work hourly instead. It's your choice to work for that employer at that salary structure.

When I worked for an employer I routinely worked well over 60 hours a week. No one paid me extra for working on evenings, weekends, etc.

Now that I am independent, I charge for that time. I still work well over 60 hours a week. I have never complained about it or called it "theft" - not then and not now - it's what is needed to get the work done and I'm lucky enough to have the work.

Calling it "theft" - or the OP's completely baffling statement that somehow we are all stealing stuff - if not money, then "energy" from "situations" (whatever that means) is just a lot of whining.

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Author: wasmick Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303674 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/21/2011 6:22 PM
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Reliable transportation is something I have to have for business (obviously you haven't read my previous threads.) One of the reasons I got into the bad debt situation was because of lack of transportation and my business suffering.


Does your business take checks?

I assume that a client paying you by check and then bouncing it would be welcome to continue doing business with you?

Because really we're only quibbling over promises to pay and those promises are all subject to circumstances, right?

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Author: exeter17 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303675 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/22/2011 9:20 AM
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How did you get out of my p-box

Here's you're citation

http://www.smallerindiana.com/profiles/blogs/this-time-its-d...

Founding a company that is swallowed up by another would still count as founding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Templeton_Investments

If you want I can give you a lesson in using google

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Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303678 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/22/2011 12:28 PM
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Have I made every effort I can to pay them back? Yes, I have. I've also made every effort I can to work with the CC companies with very little luck

loving,

Are you planning on filing for BK, or are you just planning on walking away from your debts? I ask because, during a BK hearing, they will scrutinize every financial decision you have made over the past few years leading up to your filing. Having a new to you car that was purchased so close to the filing is a red flag and could result in a BK not being granted.

We always just assume that it's all just procedural, but you have to prove that you can't pay your debt and have no reasonable future earnings that will cover those debts, so be prepared that buying a fairly new car could hurt you in a BK situation.

LWW

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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303681 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/22/2011 1:44 PM
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Does your business take checks?

She should be able to predict which checks will bounce and which ones will not.

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Author: AcmeFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303683 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/22/2011 11:08 PM
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Reliable transportation is something I have to have for business (obviously you haven't read my previous threads.) One of the reasons I got into the bad debt situation was because of lack of transportation and my business suffering.

Keep justifying your unethical actions. Eventually, maybe you won't feel so guilty.

Acme

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Author: AcmeFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303684 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/22/2011 11:11 PM
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And actually I don't feel badly about the reactions I'm getting to my decisions. I find the reactions fascinating and am always amazed by human nature -- how people can't just answer a simple question without their judgements and projections getting in the way.

Pot, meet kettle. Notice anything in common?

Acme

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303685 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/23/2011 2:28 AM
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<<Does your business take checks?

She should be able to predict which checks will bounce and which ones will not.
>>


Heh, heh! The ones you don't take will never bounce...



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: tconi Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303686 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/23/2011 9:27 AM
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I hope you never find yourself in a bad situation,


I have been in a *bad situation* - plenty of times.
*I have gone more than 2 weeks without eating (more than once) - because i had no money for food.
*I have lived in my car
*I accumulated debt when i was a single mom with a 2 & 12 year old and unemployed for 8 months - during which time my vehicle was totaled in an accident and i had to replace it <this was 2002 and I chose a 1991 Subaru>
*On more than one occasion I have worked 3 jobs (2 FT and one PT)
*When i bought my house, I had a great what-I-thought-was-solid and-secure-gig. FIVE weeks after closing (and draining the efund for the down payment) my income went from almost 6 figures to zero (and i could not collect unemployment benefits)
*In the last 2 years in fact, I have been unemployed, underemployed and over employed...
*I did settle on some of my past debt (which is why I always caution about the tax consequences) because the fees alone were increasing the debt by @ $250/month and I did not really know how else to deal with it at the time. But taking on new debt was the last thing I wanted to do.


but I suspect there are other areas in your life that suck.

Yes- parts of my life suck.
Why does that matter? Does that make you feel better?
My job is 100% travel.
Even though I just spent 3 months in Europe, this does suck, because i miss out on being home.

I do not need to feel superior to someone else to justify any of my actions, and I still think you were wrong to take on the additional car debt.

peace & balance
t


currently with 4 vehicles for 3 people (me, the boy, GoMC)
1994, 1997, 1998b Subarus
1990 Toyota

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303687 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/23/2011 5:56 PM
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We aren't told the nature of LovingRose's business.

A quick google search will resolve that.

And the irony is astounding.


Frydaze1

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Author: aj485 Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303688 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/23/2011 7:05 PM
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And the irony is astounding.

I especially like that for some services, she requires payment by credit or debit card. So she's willing to take money from the banks, but balks at paying them the money she owes them.....

Especially in her business, she should know that karma can be a b!tch.

AJ

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Author: synchronicityII Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303689 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/24/2011 2:17 AM
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Reliable transportation is something I have to have for business

The '94 Prizm we bought for $2,500 in 2005 is awfully reliable. So much so that it's still the car my wife drives to work today. And she gets in serious trouble if she's so much as a minute late.

I hope you never find yourself in a bad situation, but I suspect there are other areas in your life that suck.

Well, I DO live in a scruffy, cheap-@ss apartment and have over 30K of CC debt.

-synchronicity,

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Author: xtn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303693 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/26/2011 11:24 AM
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I guess the people on this board who like to throw stones/judge others are absolutely perfect themselves.

Nope. Not perfect. But not a thief like you.

xtn

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Author: InconclusiveFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303694 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/26/2011 1:17 PM
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You tell 'em girl!

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Author: kittykitty6 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303695 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/26/2011 3:41 PM
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And the irony is astounding.

The jokes practically write themselves.

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Author: InconclusiveFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303696 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/26/2011 6:10 PM
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"*I have gone more than 2 weeks without eating (more than once) - because i had no money for food.
*I have lived in my car"

That must have been a very difficult challenge for you. But may I ask: from the long history of your posts, you seem to get along pretty well with your family. None of them could offer a roof for a while, under those dire circumstances? If this question is to personal, please fool alert it.

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Author: tconi Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303697 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/27/2011 8:29 PM
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If I had told them I am quite certain assistance would have been offered.

However, at 19 I hitchhiked from Denver to South Florida.

The worst instances were between age 19-21.
I was too young and stubborn to admit that I was not making it just fine thanks! on my own.


peace & Mother, Mother (Tracy Bonham)
t

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Author: InconclusiveFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303699 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/27/2011 9:57 PM
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Te reason I ask, is that I used to work with a woman with a remarkably similar story. She from NJ, ended up in Florida, with a baby and the baby's father bailed on her. For a while she was living in her car down there, with a very close-knit family here in NJ. I asked her why she didn't come home to live with her parents, and she really couldn't explain it. Your answer is probably relevant in her situation as well. Thx for the reply - sounds like your situation is far better these days fortunately.

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Author: wasmick Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303723 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 11/29/2011 5:30 PM
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Well, I DO live in a scruffy, cheap-@ss apartment and have over 30K of CC debt.


Atta-boy!

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Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308455 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 7/28/2014 8:10 PM
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I'm guessing she will "find herself" unable to pay on the newer car eventually as well.
*****************
Actually, after getting my house into the HAMP program, I'm now able to make double payments on the car every month. My goal is to pay it off by this November. Actual payoff date is November 2016.

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Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308456 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 7/28/2014 8:11 PM
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I feel sympathetic to lovingrose. I've made financial mistakes, too, if none so drastic, and I'd be better off today had I not made them, so I'm not pointing fingers. If LR is a thief, she has a lot of company. In fact she's way back in line behind real estate developers leaving investors/banks/contractors/buyers/whole communities holding the bag, Enron executives, General Motors executives, mortgage writers who encouraged people to lie to get loans--and then sold the loans to make them someone else's problem (eventually the taxpayers' problem), investment banks who bundled and sold these shaky loans as if they were AAA paper...sold them to pension plans for goodness sake. It's a long list.
*************
Thank you. I never felt like a 'thief' and still don't.

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Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308457 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 7/28/2014 8:15 PM
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You want to sign a contract with a business (owned by investors like me), willing accept our product and terms, then decide you don't want to pay for those goods because it turned out to be a personal inconvenience for you?
*****************
No, I didn't decide to walk away because it was an "inconvenience". I walked away because there were things like shelter that were far more important than paying off usurious debt with companies who refused to work with me and felt they could jerk me around.

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Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308458 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 7/28/2014 8:17 PM
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.....Depending on what kind of business you have a newer model may be favorable to your business in your opinion, but don't expect people to feel sorry for you when you buy it at the expense of your credit card companies. - Carol
*******************
It's not my opinion. I need to have a safe, reliable vehicle that will get me where I need to go.

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Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308459 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 7/28/2014 8:17 PM
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.....Thats why I said that I don't mind her throwing in the towel ONCE, but these people usually do it again and again, and that is definitely a problem that we ALL pay for. - Carol
************
And I'm not one of them.

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Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308460 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 7/28/2014 8:19 PM
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You have obviously bent your ethics enough to justify to yourself that defaulting on your previous obligations in order to purchase the car is the right thing to do.
**************
No, I just know what the right decision is. There is no way I could have paid off credit cards if I were homeless.

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Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308461 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 7/28/2014 8:21 PM
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This "lady" has a BUSINESS...................how would she like to be stiffed on payments.....
**************
Any company that accepted a credit card from me for purchases got their money. The CC companies themselves made a lot more in interest payments from me than the original amount I charged.

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Author: aj485 Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308463 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 7/29/2014 1:53 AM
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Actually, after getting my house into the HAMP program, I'm now able to make double payments on the car every month. My goal is to pay it off by this November. Actual payoff date is November 2016.

Gee, HAMP was around way before 2011. Maybe you should have tried getting your house into the HAMP program before defaulting on the credit cards, and you might have been able to actually afford the car then, too.

AJ

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Author: ThyPeace Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308465 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 7/29/2014 8:51 AM
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Gee, HAMP was around ... Maybe you should have tried ... and you might have been able to

Hindsight is usually 20/20. Foresight not so much.

ThyPeace, and then there's astigmatism.

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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308466 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 7/29/2014 11:35 AM
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I guess you felt compelled to respond to a lot of 3 year old posts.

PSU

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Author: aj485 Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308470 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 7/29/2014 7:46 PM
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Hindsight is usually 20/20. Foresight not so much.

Oh, I don't know.....the OP had enough foresight to know that buying a car was going to cause her to default on her credit card obligations: http://boards.fool.com/greater-hit-29606066.aspx?sort=whole#... The only thing she seemed interested in was whether she should declare BK or just walk away from the debts, rather than seeing if there were other options.

If she had posted some numbers, and asked for suggestions, rather than declaring that she intended to default, she probably would have gotten advice that included looking at HAMP and HARP as options to lower her mortgage payment, so she could have had better even better foresight.

As it was, the foresight she had was 20/20 - she did buy the car, and she did default on her credit cards. Plan to stiff creditors executed.

AJ

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Author: LLRinCO Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308475 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 7/31/2014 12:55 AM
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Actually, after getting my house into the HAMP program, I'm now able to make double payments on the car every month. My goal is to pay it off by this November. Actual payoff date is November 2016.

Let's see, you bought the car in 2011 and will have it paid off in 5 years. Isn't that how a 5 year loan works?

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Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308479 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 7/31/2014 8:02 PM
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Gee, HAMP was around way before 2011. Maybe you should have tried getting your house into the HAMP program before defaulting on the credit cards, and you might have been able to actually afford the car then, too.
************
I'm glad I didn't since the company the mortgage is with was involved in very shady practices. Many people who thought they were in HAMP with them ended up losing their homes. If I had attempted HAMP at that time, I probably would have been one of them.

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Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308480 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 7/31/2014 8:03 PM
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Let's see, you bought the car in 2011 and will have it paid off in 5 years. Isn't that how a 5 year loan works?
*************
Uh, no. Three years. You might want to consider a refresher course in math.

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Author: LLRinCO Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308481 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 7/31/2014 10:30 PM
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You posted in 2011 that you were buying a car and come back in 2014 and say it will be paid off by 2016. I went with the figures I had.

Instead of making double car payments, why don't you pay the credit cards you defaulted on?

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Author: Jennlee222 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308482 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 8/1/2014 7:25 AM
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I think you misread a bit - she posted that she hopes to pay it off by this November (2014) and the that original loan term went to November, 2016.

I agree that if she is now doing well she should make attempts to pay past creditors since taking on new debt with no intention of paying existing debt is basically akin to theft.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308491 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 8/3/2014 1:32 PM
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And that is NOT OKAY! I don't care how many articles you point out of others doing the same thing. It doesn't change the fact that you "LOVING ROSE" are a thief!

She has also created a mess that could follow her the rest of her life. Stopping paying on credit cards doesn't make the debt go away. Once debt is sold to collections, it has a life of its own. She isn't immune from being sued for the debt. It isn't a decision without consequences, but it will take months to years to realize the consequences.

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Author: joelcorley Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308493 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 8/4/2014 2:37 AM
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vkg,

You wrote, She has also created a mess that could follow her the rest of her life. Stopping paying on credit cards doesn't make the debt go away. Once debt is sold to collections, it has a life of its own. She isn't immune from being sued for the debt. It isn't a decision without consequences, but it will take months to years to realize the consequences.

Hold on. Morality aside, I thought she filed BK. A creditor cannot (legally) resell a discharged debt. A BK acts as a permanent injunction against any collection efforts, so reselling a discharged debt is a violation of a court order. And she was posting about doing this in 2011, so the consequences have likely been experienced.

With that said, I do think buying a car knowing you're going to stiff your creditors stinks.

- Joel

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308495 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 8/4/2014 11:07 AM
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Hold on. Morality aside, I thought she filed BK.

I didn't see that she had filed bankruptcy. If she did file BK, then she can just walk away.

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Author: ThyPeace Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308497 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 8/4/2014 1:44 PM
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I FAed LLRinCO's post, in case anyone wants to know. Although one may agree or disagree with actions, degenerating into name calling is not particularly productive.

ThyPeace, and too many exclamation points. Not that I'd FA that, but there were.

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Author: aj485 Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308505 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 8/4/2014 9:42 PM
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Hold on. Morality aside, I thought she filed BK.

No, I don't think she did. She was trying to decide whether to walk away or to file BK, but she never said that she filed. And in this post http://boards.fool.com/you-want-to-sign-a-contract-with-a-bu... she actually said No, I didn't decide to walk away because it was an "inconvenience". I walked away because there were things like shelter that were far more important than paying off usurious debt with companies who refused to work with me and felt they could jerk me around.

Wait.....now it's not the car payment that made the cards unaffordable, but the mortgage? I mean, since she has a mortgage, we know she wasn't living in the car, so she couldn't be attempting to qualify the car as 'shelter', right?

A BK acts as a permanent injunction against any collection efforts, so reselling a discharged debt is a violation of a court order.

Yes, that's what she was advised back when she asked - that declaring BK would permanently get rid of the debt, but if she walked away, the creditor(s) could choose to sue her. Bankrate http://www.bankrate.com/finance/credit-cards/state-statutes-... says that the statute of limitations is either 5 or 10 years in Illinois, where I believe she lives, so there is potentially another 6 1/2 years (depending on when she actually missed the first payment) that she could be sued.

AJ

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Author: joelcorley Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308506 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 8/4/2014 10:33 PM
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aj485,

You wrote, Yes, that's what she was advised back when she asked - that declaring BK would permanently get rid of the debt, but if she walked away, the creditor(s) could choose to sue her. Bankrate http://www.bankrate.com/finance/credit-cards/state-statutes-... says that the statute of limitations is either 5 or 10 years in Illinois, where I believe she lives, so there is potentially another 6 1/2 years (depending on when she actually missed the first payment) that she could be sued.

FWIW if a creditor does sue, the SOL post judgment in Illinois is an additional 20 years...

- Joel

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Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308513 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 8/18/2014 5:53 PM
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Instead of making double car payments, why don't you pay the credit cards you defaulted on?
*******************
To get the car paid off sooner.

I've been contacted with an offer by one credit card company which I have accepted as soon as they meet two conditions in writing.

By the way, do you work for the CC industry?

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Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308514 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 8/18/2014 5:54 PM
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I agree that if she is now doing well she should make attempts to pay past creditors since taking on new debt with no intention of paying existing debt is basically akin to theft.
****************
I'm not taking on new debt and, except for the car, have not taken on any new debt in the last three years.

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Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308515 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 8/18/2014 6:01 PM
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She has also created a mess that could follow her the rest of her life. Stopping paying on credit cards doesn't make the debt go away. Once debt is sold to collections, it has a life of its own. She isn't immune from being sued for the debt. It isn't a decision without consequences, but it will take months to years to realize the consequences.
***************
Actually, this decision will not follow me the rest of my life. There is only so long that it's on a person's credit record. I also won't need credit for anything for a long time, if ever.

The consequences to date include two companies charging it off, and I had to include it as income on my taxes.

Another company has sent me an amount to settle which I have accepted provided they put two terms in writing. The first is that they put in writing that the balance will not be sold to any other collection agency. The second is that it be duly noted with the reporting agencies. That was back in June. To date, they have refused to put anything in writing.

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Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308516 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 8/18/2014 6:02 PM
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With that said, I do think buying a car knowing you're going to stiff your creditors stinks.
**************
So, Joel, you think giving up my house and living in my car was the way to go, hunh? What CC company to you work for?

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308517 of 308517
Subject: Re: To all you moralists out there . . . Date: 8/19/2014 1:52 AM
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Actually, this decision will not follow me the rest of my life. There is only so long that it's on a person's credit record. I also won't need credit for anything for a long time, if ever.

Collection agencies can continue to contact you after it drops off of your credit report, and you may find yourself dealing with not so reputable collection agencies.

The consequences to date include two companies charging it off, and I had to include it as income on my taxes.

The creditor can still sell the debt.

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