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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 195888  
Subject: TRINITY Date: 10/24/2001 5:29 PM
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I believe that "the God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit are One."


However I could care less about the Doctrine of the TRINITY. I have read treatises of 3 or 4 pages several time by different authors. usually by the 3rd or 4th page I disagree with something! :-) The above statement is nice and straightforward and is easily read from the scriptures. Why do we need to add to it?
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Author: frindon Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63292 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/24/2001 5:44 PM
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I believe that "the God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit are One."


Because that is only half of it. You will not understand it because you are not capable of understanding the nature of God. To presume you do is, well, presumptious.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
He was with God in the beginning.


There you have the beginning of a definition but it is not complete. Did not Jesus say, Go baptise "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"

The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or else Jesus would have said Go and baptise in the name of God.

Frindon




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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63295 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/24/2001 5:52 PM
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Frindon,
Your post sounds like you are arguing against something you think I believe? Do you believe that "the God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit are One."?
L

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Author: frindon Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63297 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/24/2001 5:58 PM
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Frindon,
Your post sounds like you are arguing against something you think I believe? Do you believe that "the God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit are One."?
L


I believe there is only one God, and each of these persons is God and each of these person is not the other.

Frindon



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Author: frindon Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63298 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/24/2001 6:02 PM
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Frindon,
Your post sounds like you are arguing against something you think I believe? Do you believe that "the God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit are One."?
L



See my post of earlier this evening.


http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=15984866

Frindon



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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63310 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/24/2001 8:05 PM
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"Whosoever will be saved, before all things, it is necessary that he hold the catholic (universal) faith; which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this: That we worship One God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity.

Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.

For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.

Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.

As also there are not three uncreates, nor three incomprehensibles, but one uncreate, and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet ther are not three almighties, but one Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; and yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; and yet not three Lords, but one Lord; so we are forbidden by the catholic religion to say, 'There be three Gods, or three Lords.'

The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity none is afore, or after another; none is greater, or less than another; but the whole three Persons are coeternal and coequal.

So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity . . ."

The Athanasian Creed, Part I

This is a lengthy description of the Trinity, but the wording was necessary to fully dispel the heresy of Arianism (e.g. modern Mormonism), for which reason it was adopted by the church of Jesus Christ. It has stood against times and errors and has been confessed by all Christians (Roman Catholic as well as Protestant; the Greek churches excepted) from since the sixth century.

J&R



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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63343 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/25/2001 4:40 AM
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<<Your post sounds like you are arguing against something you think I believe? Do you believe that "the God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit are One."?
L

I believe there is only one God, and each of these persons is God and each of these person is not the other.>>

Is that a no?
John 10:29-31 "I and the Father are one."

Do you believe that the Father and Jesus are one?





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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63346 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/25/2001 5:02 AM
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<<Anthansian creed ... It has stood against times and errors and has been confessed by all Christians ... since the sixth century>>


I have been part of several protestan congregations and have never seen this creed?




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Author: glampig Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63363 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/25/2001 9:49 AM
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This is still my favorite brief statement concerning the Holy Trinity.

"The doctrine of the Trinity is difficult and perplexing to us. Sometimes it is thought that Christianity teaches the absurd notion that 1+1+1=1. That is clearly a false equation. The term Trinity describes a relationship not of three gods, but of one God who is three Persons. Trinity does not mean tritheism, that is, that there are three beings who together are God. The word Trinity is used in an effort to define the fullness of the Godhead both in terms of His unity and diversity.

The historic formula of the Trinity is that God is one in essence and three in Person. Though the formula is mysterious and even paradoxical, it is in no way contradictory. The unity of the Godhead is affirmed in terms of essence or being, while the diversity of the Godhead is expressed in terms of Person.

Though the term Trinity is not found in the Bible, the concept is clearly there. On the one hand the Bible strongly affirms the unity of God (DT 6:4). On the other hand the Bible clearly affirms the full deity of the three persons of the Godhead: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Church has rejected the heresies of modalism [United Pentecostal Church, ed] and tritheism [RLDS & LDS, ed]. Modalism denies the distinction of Persons within the Godhead, claiming that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are just ways in which God expresses Himself. Tritheism, on the other hand, falsely declares that there are three beings who together make up God.

The term Person does not mean a distinction in essence but a different subsistence in the Godhead. A subsistence in the Godhead is a real difference but not an essential difference in the sense of a difference in being. Each Person subsists or exists 'under' the pressence of deity. Subsistence is a difference within the scope of being, not a separate being or essence. All Persons is the Godhead have all the attributes of deity.

There is also a distinction in the work done by each member of the Trinity. The work of salvation is in one sense common to all three persons of the Trinity. Yet in the manner of activity, there are different operations assumed by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father initiates creation and redemption; the Son redeems the creation; and the Holy Spirit regenerates and sanctifies, applying redemption to believers.The Trinity does not refer to parts of God or even to roles. Human analogies such as one man who is a father, son, and a husband fail to capture the mystery of the nature of God.

The doctrine of the Trinity does not fully explain the mysterious character of God. Rather, it sets the boundaries outside of which we must not step. It defines the limits of our finite reflection. It demands that we be faithful to the Biblical revelation that in one sense God is one and in a different sense He is three.

1. The doctrine of the Trinity affirms the triunity of God.
2. The doctrine of the Trinity is not a contradiction: God is one in essence and three in Person.
3. The Bible affirms both the oneness of God and the deity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
4. The Trinity is distinguished by the work assumed by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
5. The doctrine of the Trinity sets the limits of human spectulation about the nature of God."
Deuteronomy 6:4
Matthew 3:16,17
Matthew 28:19
2 Corinthians 13:14
1 Peter 1:2

The above is from the linked book by R.C. Sproul, pages 35-36. IMHO, this book belongs in every Christian's library.
Good fortune. Rick, the glampig

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0842320016/qid%3D981739567/107-0574586-7601328


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Author: RECCLES4 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63364 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/25/2001 10:29 AM
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The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or else Jesus would have said Go and baptise in the name of God.

Frindon


Interesting point. However, did not Jesus say "if you have seen me you have seen the Father" Does not the bible say that Jesus is the Word made flesh and that the Word was with God and the Word was God. This alone would signify that Jesus and God the Father are one. I know its hard for our limited minds to comprehend that. But the Holy Spirit is actualy the breath or wind of God just as your breath is a part of you, not "created" by you so it is with the Father. This is probably how the trinity came to be.

rec




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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63376 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/25/2001 12:22 PM
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"John 10:29-31 "I and the Father are one."

Do you believe that the Father and Jesus are one?"

(John 11:41-42 NASB) And so they removed the stone. And Jesus raised His eyes, and said, "Father, I thank Thee that Thou heardest Me. {42} "And I knew that Thou hearest Me always; but because of the people standing around I said it, that they may believe that Thou didst send Me."

Was Jesus talking to Himself?

God bless,

Rich

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63381 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/25/2001 1:30 PM
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<<Was Jesus talking to Himself?>>
No

John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:
23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me


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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63390 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/25/2001 2:52 PM
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"No"

OK, so we have seen that Jesus and the Father are one, but that statement does not mean they are the same because otherwise Jesus would be talking to himself. So I am having trouble understanding what your point was. Could you elucidate? Thanks.

God bless,

Rich


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Author: frindon Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63391 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/25/2001 2:52 PM
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Is that a no?
John 10:29-31 "I and the Father are one."

Do you believe that the Father and Jesus are one?




In Their intent and in that they are both the one God.

Frindon



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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63392 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/25/2001 2:59 PM
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In Their intent and in that they are both the one God.

This matches LDS doctrine. Are you OK Frindon?

ES


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Author: frindon Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63394 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/25/2001 3:08 PM
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"The doctrine of the Trinity is difficult and perplexing to us. Sometimes it is thought that Christianity teaches the absurd notion that 1+1+1=1. That is clearly a false equation.


A truer likeness would be to say that e+e+e=e where e is infinity. That is also mathmatically correct. Infinity time three is infinity, or even infinity minus 2 is infinity. The likeness to God is also truer.

Frindon



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Author: frindon Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63397 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/25/2001 3:12 PM
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The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or else Jesus would have said Go and baptise in the name of God.

Frindon

Interesting point. However, did not Jesus say "if you have seen me you have seen the Father" Does not the bible say that Jesus is the Word made flesh and that the Word was with God and the Word was God. This alone would signify that Jesus and God the Father are one GOD. I know its hard for our limited minds to comprehend that. But the Holy Spirit is actualy the breath or wind of God just as your breath is a part of you, not "created" by you so it is with the Father. This is probably how the trinity came to be.

rec


Pardon my adding a word.

Frindon




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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63419 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/25/2001 4:55 PM
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<<OK, so we have seen that Jesus and the Father are one, but that statement does not mean they are the same because otherwise Jesus would be talking to himself. So I am having trouble understanding what your point was. Could you elucidate? Thanks.>>

"Jesus and the Father are one" is the only point I was making sorry you misunderstood.



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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63420 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/25/2001 4:56 PM
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<<Is that a no?
John 10:29-31 "I and the Father are one."

Do you believe that the Father and Jesus are one?




In Their intent and in that they are both the one God.
>>

Is that a yes?


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Author: frindon Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63421 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/25/2001 4:59 PM
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In Their intent and in that they are both the one God.
>>

Is that a yes?


Yes to the above, but if you are looking for the answer to "Have you stopped beating your wife" er yes I have or no I haven't. You are being a bit ingenuous.

Frindon


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Author: glampig Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63459 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/25/2001 11:31 PM
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frindon,

< A truer likeness would be to say that e+e+e=e where e is infinity. That is also mathmatically correct. Infinity time three is infinity, or even infinity minus 2 is infinity. The likeness to God is also truer. >

Ah, you've one-upped The Calvinist Pope, R.C. Sproul. Nice work, frindon.

Rick, the glampig


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Author: faithful1 Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 63696 of 195888
Subject: Re: TRINITY Date: 10/29/2001 9:22 PM
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A truer likeness would be to say that e+e+e=e where e is infinity.
--Frindon


As a math geek, I like that one. Growing up in a Christian setting, I have heard the egg analogy for the Trinity, but I never believed it was a good illustration. Another math/geometry illustration I heard recently follows. It doesn't explain the Trinity, but (IMO) shows how we might not be able to grasp the concept fully.

In a one-dimensional world, we have a dot. A point. Add another dimension and you can create a line. A point can't grasp the concept of a line, because it is relegated to the one dimension. Add another dimension and you can create a square. Again, the point, nor the line, can comprehend a square. Add another dimension and you get a cube. Now we are in our safe three dimensional world. This is what we understand. The fourth dimension is time?? (Not sure how that fits in. I'm sure Einstein or Hawking could describe it better.) Add one or more dimensions and I cannot envision what can exist. So, in a way, the Trinity cannot be defined within our frame of reference, but with more dimensions it will make Perfect sense.

John

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