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Author: Milligram46 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 11704  
Subject: UAI - Kia Sorrento Date: 8/27/2012 9:14 PM
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http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/video-lauri-ulvesta...

... Lauri Ulvestad survives her KIA Sorento's accelerator malfunctioning and being unable to stop her car.

She pulled over to the shoulder, and a trooper disconnected the Sorrento’s battery to ensure it wouldn’t start up again, the newspaper said.

Ulvestad was reunited with Brieg’s on ABC’s “Good Morning America,” saying that “if it wasn’t for her, I wouldn’t be here.”

Kia Motors America Inc. released a statement calling Ulvestad’s wild ride an “isolated incident...”

She makes the exact same claims some Toyota owners made. Rowing through the gears did nothing. Brake to the floor nothing. Emergency brake all the way on and nothing.

Only after she reached down with her hands (brave act at 120 MPH) and physically lifted the stuck gas pedal and pushed down at the same time on the brake did the out of control Kia stop.

Ya I know, NASA, research, studied, etc. etc. etc. but here is another case, exact same situation - another car maker. My first thought - any common electronics or lines of code.

I'm starting to really dislike push button ignitions and electronic throttles.
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Author: xtn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 11383 of 11704
Subject: Re: UAI - Kia Sorrento Date: 8/31/2012 10:21 AM
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Oh great. Now we've got to have all the arguments all over again.

Putting the transmission into neutral didn't work? Or she couldn't get the shift lever to move? The text says one thing but in the audio she says the other. Why aren't reporters trained in not twisting details? I'm guessing she has the 3.5 and the automatic.

Standard keyed ignition. Did she ever try to just turn the engine off? Pretty obviously not, unless I'm missing something.

Finally able to stop when she physically lifted up the gas pedal, so it wasn't any black box malfunction. And apparently once she lifted the gas pedal her brakes started working again. Weird.

You know what MIGHT fix this type of thing? Manufacturers not putting crappy, long lasting, low dusting brake pads on their cars. Use a pad with high friction and high heat tolerance. Well, that's IF her brakes really lost effectiveness.


Will a Kia even GO 115mph???

Hey, I shouldn't disparage the lady. She did an awesome job steering around that 18-wheeler via the ditch at 108 mph without loosing control, and I've very glad she survived her ordeal.

xtn

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Author: ptheland Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 11384 of 11704
Subject: Re: UAI - Kia Sorrento Date: 8/31/2012 1:56 PM
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And apparently once she lifted the gas pedal her brakes started working again. Weird.

Sounds like the loss of vacuum assist to me. If you've never experienced that, you might describe it as the brakes failing particularly if the brakes in your car are overboosted and normally take only the smallest effort to stop the car.

--Peter

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Author: xtn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 11385 of 11704
Subject: Re: UAI - Kia Sorrento Date: 9/3/2012 3:30 PM
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And apparently once she lifted the gas pedal her brakes started working again. Weird.

Sounds like the loss of vacuum assist to me. If you've never experienced that, you might describe it as the brakes failing particularly if the brakes in your car are overboosted and normally take only the smallest effort to stop the car.


I have experienced it. Unless your reservoir leaks pretty badly, you've got at least one big brake press left.

xtn

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Author: ptheland Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 11386 of 11704
Subject: Re: UAI - Kia Sorrento Date: 9/3/2012 4:11 PM
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I have experienced it.

So have I. Or at least I've simulated it.

With some decent room around me on a freeway, I have floored the accelerator then started pressing the brake. It only took two presses to completely drain the vacuum reservoir in my car. And the second press wasn't fully boosted. I'd always been taught there are two or three presses in that situation. It was more like one and a half.

For those who learned to deal with brake failure by pumping the brake pedal, that's the last thing you want to do with a loss of vacuum assist.

In an unintended acceleration situation, I agree with your assessment - you've got one big brake press. Use it wisely.

--Peter

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Author: xtn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 11387 of 11704
Subject: Re: UAI - Kia Sorrento Date: 9/4/2012 8:30 AM
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In an unintended acceleration situation, I agree with your assessment - you've got one big brake press. Use it wisely.

Exactly. Now I'm not going to further knock anybody who gets it wrong, but will say that I don't understand it. It just seems like common sense to me. If my car starts zooming away at full throttle, you can bet your hind end that I'm pushing the brake pedal down for all I'm worth and holding it there.

Maybe it only seems like common sense to me because of my knowledge of how the system works? Maybe. If the brakes do work on the first press, why would one think they have failed and begin pumping the pedal?

Peter, I'm curious.... In your testing, was the first (boosted) attempt at braking your car effective at slowing it despite the full throttle? What about successive (unboosted) attempts? What make/model is your car?

xtn

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Author: ptheland Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 11388 of 11704
Subject: Re: UAI - Kia Sorrento Date: 9/4/2012 2:07 PM
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Now I'm not going to further knock anybody who gets it wrong, but will say that I don't understand it.

There are a lot of people out there who don't really understand how their car works. They just know you press on this pedal to make it go, and that one to make it stop.

For those people, if the brake doesn't work the way they're used to it working (which is often overboosted and only taking a light touch to get a lot of stop), they'll let up and try again.

And in a different "failed brake" situation - say a leaking master cylinder - pumping the brakes is the right thing to do.

Maybe it only seems like common sense to me because of my knowledge of how the system works?

Probably.

If the brakes do work on the first press, why would one think they have failed and begin pumping the pedal?

Remember that your typical driver only knows their brakes when the brakes aren't fighting against the engine. They're generally taught to use only one pedal at a time. Brake or throttle - not both. Mixing a little brake with some throttle mid-corner to get the car to settle down is not something grandma is going to be doing on a regular basis. ;-)

So when the throttle sticks and they apply the brakes, the car isn't stopping the way they're used to it stopping. It doesn't surprise me that they call it a "brake failure" even though the brakes are working normally. Then some old bit of driver's ed or urban legend kicks in and they start pumping the brakes. There goes the vacuum reserve and now they have un-boosted brakes.

An un-boosted brake pedal is rock hard, but with little braking power. It takes all the muscle you've got to have some effect on the car. Depending on the power of the engine and the strength of the leg, you may not be physically able to slow the car at that point. And yet there is still nothing wrong with the braking system. If the throttle gets un-stuck and the car is inspected, you'll find nothing wrong with the brakes. And yet the driver will insist that the brakes failed. More correctly, the brakes had less effect than the driver is used to, first because of the stuck throttle and then because of a depleted vacuum reserve.

Peter, I'm curious.... In your testing, was the first (boosted) attempt at braking your car effective at slowing it despite the full throttle?

Somewhat. It was definitely less effective that normal.

What about successive (unboosted) attempts?

Much less effect. Since I didn't really have a stuck throttle and had to keep one foot on the accelerator, I could only use one foot on the brake. I couldn't actually slow the car with just one foot. If I had both feet, I think I could have accomplished some slowing of the car. But it definitely took everything I had to give.

What make/model is your car?

Do I really have to answer that? OK. 1999 Honda Odyssey. And a similar effect in the 2001 Chrysler Town & Country. The T&C had a bit more braking - partly because the engine has a few less horses, and partly because it has disc brakes on all four corners. The Honda has drums in the rear.

I'd encourage you to give it a try for yourself. Find an open bit of road, floor the throttle, and see what the brake does, both on the first press and again after a couple of pumps.

--Peter

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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 11389 of 11704
Subject: Re: UAI - Kia Sorrento Date: 9/4/2012 2:52 PM
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She makes the exact same claims some Toyota owners made. Rowing through the gears did nothing. Brake to the floor nothing. Emergency brake all the way on and nothing.

Only after she reached down with her hands (brave act at 120 MPH) and physically lifted the stuck gas pedal and pushed down at the same time on the brake did the out of control Kia stop.


I didn't think Toyota's problem was with electronic throttles. My Highlander was included in the recall for stuck accelerators. The supposed cause was the pedal getting stuck under the floor mat. When I took my vehicle in for the recall, all the dealer did was saw or grind off a bottom portion of the gas pedal.

PSU

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Author: ptheland Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 11390 of 11704
Subject: Re: UAI - Kia Sorrento Date: 9/4/2012 3:20 PM
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I'm curious.... In your testing, was the first (boosted) attempt at braking your car effective at slowing it despite the full throttle? What about successive (unboosted) attempts?

It was quite a while ago the last time I tried this. And what are lunch breaks for if not some driving around? So I just gave it another shot in the Honda.

Starting at 70, I floored it. The first brake press was more effective than I remembered. I could slow down reasonably well, although not like normal. As the speed dropped to a down shift point for the automatic tranny, it became a bit harder to slow down. Which makes sense, as the engine moved up in its power band.

For the drained vacuum reserve, I started at 60, floored it, then pressed the brake several times. The brake pedal became very hard. When my speed hit 70, I started braking in earnest. I could slow the car a bit, but not a lot. It took a couple seconds to get down to 60. Again, I think I'd be a bit more effective if I could have had both feet on the brake. The down shift was a bit unnerving as the engine started generating a bit more power. But again, I could slow the car.

If I didn't care about the car and were willing to burn through some brakes, I'd carry the testing further. I don't know if I could get to a full stop against the full throttle with no brake assist.

--Peter

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Author: xtn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 11391 of 11704
Subject: Re: UAI - Kia Sorrento Date: 9/4/2012 5:04 PM
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I'd encourage you to give it a try for yourself. Find an open bit of road, floor the throttle, and see what the brake does, both on the first press and again after a couple of pumps.

Like I said, I've experienced it. For real. Let's see... it would have been in 1985. Driving a 1969 Thunderbird with a 429ci V8 and a 3-speed automatic. Hydraulic, vacuum assisted brakes. Drums in the rear.

I floored it on an on-ramp to the highway, because the on-ramp was short and uphill, and mostly because I was a 16 year old male. The throttle return spring at the carb broke, which I didn't know until a few seconds later when I reached 70-ish mph and lifted off the throttle pedal and kept accelerating.

My best brake application brought it pretty quickly down to 60-ish mph (no, not as quickly as they would have without the engine runaway) by which time my momentarily confused brain made sense of the situation and I killed the ignition.

The first application of brakes did have a reasonably useful effect, and as such it never occurred to me to relax the pressure on them. I also applied them and held them instinctively, before my brain had a couple of seconds to work out what was going on, without thinking about their method of operation.

At least that's the way I remember it all these years later. It definitely was a memory making thirty seconds of life.

xtn

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Author: xtn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 11392 of 11704
Subject: Re: UAI - Kia Sorrento Date: 9/4/2012 5:11 PM
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She makes the exact same claims some Toyota owners made. Rowing through the gears did nothing. Brake to the floor nothing. Emergency brake all the way on and nothing.

I personally think that's all bologna, or twisted reporting. She didn't row through the gears. She said she couldn't move the shifter. If the brakes don't work due to loss of vacuum assist, they don't go to the floor. Brakes on does SOMETHING, even if it might not be much.

Sorry, this is just my rant against the gossip effect, whereby the details of a story change every time it's told. I feel like by the time the news gets to me, I can't trust its accuracy, either through this effect or perhaps at least occasionally through intentional biases effecting the writing of said news.

xtn

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