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Author: PolymerMom Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 465374  
Subject: Value of College Date: 2/10/2013 2:44 AM
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There have been many posts declaring college is overrated and much too expensive for kids today, Here's a post from Mark Thoma, currently a Prof of Economics at the University of Oregon and why he thinks a college degree is worth it.

I can't say if it was worth it to society to subsidize my education -- this blog is one result of that investment -- but it was certainly worth it to me and to this day I have not forgotten what the state of California did for me. (I really, really, hated working at tractor stores and the gas station, nobody should have the power over people my boss at the gas station had over me -- he tried to screw me out of overtime, that sort of thing, though once I threatened to report him to the labor board his tune changed a bit -- and the thought of doing jobs like that for the rest of my life was a huge motivation in college.

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2013/02/wha...

And then he rips into the current meme on why the "education bubble" rationale is specious. (Yeah, I still hate using the "bubble" terminology and the myriad misapplications it encourages.)

PM
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Author: tim443 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415513 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/10/2013 7:59 AM
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There have been many posts declaring college is overrated and much too expensive for kids today

PM

I don't think anyone (most?) were declaring college is overrated, merely that perhaps it is not for everyone? I've seen and heard of so many that where sent off to college/university with their parents dreams and money only to be back home with mom and dad by Christmas.

Both of my spawn made money in university tutoring kids from outlying towns with marginal high school education or even "city kids" who had just minimal interest in being there. Both said the parents money was probably being wasted.

Then we have the issue of kids who did finish college but end up driving cabs or flipping burgers in order to eat but not be able to afford to pay down the debt.


Tim

OT - funny story, SIL told his six year old math genius*** that his first job paid $10 an hour tutoring failing students in university. Of course the little guy announced that he was going to start charging $10 to help students who were having trouble with grade one math. }};-D

*** - he gets a copy of his grade three brother's homework and finishes it before his brother.

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Author: qazulight Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415516 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/10/2013 9:54 AM
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Tim,

Put the genius onto Khan Academy. Have him start with the practice. In just a little while he will be solving problems algebra problems and learning to be a math ninja. It is addictive even for old guys. Only when one can't figure it out will one condsend to watching the videos. It is kind of like playing a computer game and then looking up the cheats.

Cheers
Qazulight

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415517 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/10/2013 11:05 AM
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Put the genius onto Khan Academy. Have him start with the practice. In just a little while he will be solving problems algebra problems and learning to be a math ninja.

Put big brother in there too. It's free.

www.khanacademy.org

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Author: flyerboys Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415519 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/10/2013 11:41 AM
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Qaz

thanks for the Khan Academny link. i checked it out as a means of helping a gifted high school dropout I'm mentoring and now I'M ADDICTED!.


david fb

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Author: steve203 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415521 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/10/2013 12:02 PM
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I really, really, hated working at tractor stores and the gas station, nobody should have the power over people my boss at the gas station had over me -- he tried to screw me out of overtime, that sort of thing,

A college degree does *not* guarantee fair treatment by employers. I lost count of how much pay and vacation time I was beat out of over the years.

Steve

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Author: tim443 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415523 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/10/2013 12:14 PM
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It is kind of like playing a computer game and then looking up the cheats.

Cheers
Qazulight


You may have just pushed his button. ;-D

I mentioned it to his mom on the phone, SIL is the son of two school teachers so I suspect grandpa doesn't have a whole lot of leverage on this one.

OT - Birthday Party Industry

It would seem their is a whole new small business industry here or perhaps it is just my perception?

C. had a "Tiny Chef" party for her newly five year old last weekend. They show up with all the ingredients and the little ones all get to make their own lunch (Pizza). The two ladies even clean up the kitchen after. She has booked the girl's dance school for a "Princess Party" for the little (3 in April) one's birthday. Meanwhile Banker lady had a "Mad Scientist" party for the 9 year old in December and has booked a "Laser Tag" party for the 7 year old to be next week. I wonder if this is a lot of people starting a small business that doesn't require a whole lot of up front capital? Of course some of it is existing small business trying to bring in some extra cash flow from existing facilities.

C. commented that it is "raining ministers" in Washington right now and she and the ambassador have "tons of hill calls" coming up. She got a call from a Foreign Affairs friend who was supposed to become ambassador to Iran until our PM shut down the embassy their. He was hoping for a change of mind but as he is with the ME desk he is now scouting for another position somewhere there. Lots more interesting stuff but I forgot to take notes.

Regards
Tim

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Author: jerryab Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415528 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/10/2013 1:40 PM
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C. had a "Tiny Chef" party for her newly five year old last weekend. They show up with all the ingredients and the little ones all get to make their own lunch (Pizza). The two ladies even clean up the kitchen after. She has booked the girl's dance school for a "Princess Party" for the little (3 in April) one's birthday. Meanwhile Banker lady had a "Mad Scientist" party for the 9 year old in December and has booked a "Laser Tag" party for the 7 year old to be next week. I wonder if this is a lot of people starting a small business that doesn't require a whole lot of up front capital? Of course some of it is existing small business trying to bring in some extra cash flow from existing facilities.

All of these have objective: To make the entire event simple and "no work" for the parents--so they "get a break" also. Sure, there is work--but it is PAYING work for the businesses. Materials are generally inexpensive. The real "cost" is not money--it is *time*. 50 years ago, helping to make and decorate the cake for the party was fun for the kids too. And it began well before the party--picking the decorations, candles, etc. I.e. family involvement (at least mom and child) in the entire process leading up to the party itself. Today, not so. Everything is purchased, packaged, and delivered. The anticipation leading up to the big even is gone. And so is a part of learning that used to take place when people were children. Instant gratification instead of having to wait.

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415540 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/10/2013 6:02 PM
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OT - Birthday Party Industry

Whatever happened to Bobo the clown with his twisted balloon animals?

When I was a little kid they had some guy with a pony show up. Somewhere in the family archives is a picture of me wearing a borrowed cowboy hat sitting on a bored pony.

Soon after that my parents alcoholism took over and we didn't have much in the way of birthday parties after that.

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Author: corbetti Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415548 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/10/2013 7:54 PM
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Nonsense.

OF COURSE getting a degree at the time he went to college was valuable - the cost of education was MUCH cheaper, and the opportunities in the pre-internet/pre-global world to get a job in the US with a college degree were much better.

His denial that the rules of the game have changed is superficial.

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415549 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/10/2013 8:10 PM
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flyerboys says

thanks for the Khan Academny link. i checked it out as a means of helping a gifted high school dropout I'm mentoring and now I'M ADDICTED!.

Khan Academy provides great lectures on technical material, but very little on humanities and there is no classroom experience at all. To be educational it needs to be combined with other materials and experiences.

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Author: putnid Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415550 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/10/2013 8:30 PM
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Khan Academy provides great lectures on technical material, but very little on humanities and there is no classroom experience at all. To be educational it needs to be combined with other materials and experiences. - crassfool

I'm not disagreeing with you on fundamental grounds, because I, too, believe in the classroom experience and the give and take between teachers and pupils. However, I still remember my Inorganic Chemistry 101 class my freshman year of college which consisted of some 100+ students and a mediocre (at best) professor. The class (at a major state university) was designed to cull students from the science curriculum right from the git go. It did just that. Khan Academy lectures represent a vast improvement on that model.

Education became far more enlightening when I entered graduate studies with small class sizes and dedicated professors. There's no substituting THAT experience with video lectures.

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Author: qazulight Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415552 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/10/2013 9:20 PM
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flyerboys says

thanks for the Khan Academny link. i checked it out as a means of helping a gifted high school dropout I'm mentoring and now I'M ADDICTED!.

Khan Academy provides great lectures on technical material, but very little on humanities and there is no classroom experience at all. To be educational it needs to be combined with other materials and experiences.


Of course. My plan, if there really is a plan, is to use the math section to avoid taking remedial math prior to taking college here at the state college.

On the other hand, there is Coursera, but now my plate is full attempting to learn the Tenor Sax and Math.

https://www.coursera.org/

Cheers
Qazulight

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Author: ItsGoingUp Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415553 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/10/2013 9:53 PM
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qazulight wrote:
Put the genius onto Khan Academy.

Actually, the place all the math kids go is Art of Problem Solving. They have a free math learning system called Alcumus:
http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Alcumus/Introduction.php

Their books and classes are awesome too, but not free.

-IGU-

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Author: KlangFool One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415555 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/10/2013 11:44 PM
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Hi,

He is a professor of Economics and he does not understand Basic Economy.

Everything has a price. And, the worth of something is DIFFERENT between people. College education may worth 200K to some people but it may worth a lot less to others.

Basic rule of supply and demand.

College tuition bubble will burst. It is just a matter of time. When the REAL INCOME of college graduate has not gone up, why should the college education tuition rise faster than inflation?? This had gone on long enough because of student loan. But, it will end just like the Real Estate bubble.

KlangFool

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Author: Dwdonhoff Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415563 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/11/2013 12:46 AM
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Humanities
Online
Free
Best univerity providers
https://www.coursera.org/#category/humanities

Bubble averted
Time saved
Slavery dashed!
You're welcome!

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Author: flyerboys Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415565 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/11/2013 1:05 AM
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Oh, very good!

david fb

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Author: rubberthinking Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415566 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/11/2013 1:25 AM
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Life is what you make of it.

If you want to hang your hat on a college degree your hat will fall to the floor.

For some folks college is completely unnecessary, but for the majority of folks that are college material they need at least a four year degree in the modern world.

As for the expense, someone today on a network news program was stating that in the 1950s and into the 1960s 33% of the federal govt outlays were for R&D, highways etc...and 33% was for social spending welfare etc....I am not sure if subsidizing education fell into social spending, but I imagine it does.

Today the numbers are quite different, 66% for social spending and 16% on R&D etc...

We badly need economic growth in tnis country to slow or stop a lot of the social spending and to increase R&D spending.

I will venture that R&D spending is much more effective now than in the 1950s, and that such spending will increase with economic growth in the 2020's. Also the part of the R&D spending that was highways will not be all that needed as in the 1950s.

Elsewhere on the fool only a couple of years ago comparisons were made between social spending and military spending and the effects of each on the velocity of money, military spending returned one buck and change, while social spending returned two bucks and change. This was not impressive in either case. The economy is bad for any type of spending, but it could easily be worse.

So if the millionaires of this world stop investing in hedge funds and begin to invest in their businesses we will see those numbers all change for the better.

Dave

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Author: determinedmom Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415574 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/11/2013 2:13 AM
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For some folks college is completely unnecessary, but for the majority of folks that are college material they need at least a four year degree in the modern world.

Only because everybody keeping saying it. Not because it is actually true. First - before I knock the idea of a bachelor's degree for everyone - let me make it clear that for those who actually want a bachelor's degree I think that obtaining it should be affordable and encouraged.

That said -- for a significant number of bachelor's degrees there is actually no compelling need for the student to have to go to school for 4 years. Yes, I believe in education for its own sake (I personally have 3 degrees) and, no, education is not just about job training.

However, for the majority of students, education is mostly about either job training (if you are fortunate) or getting a piece of paper to prove that you can get through 4 years of college in the hope that this will help you get a job that is wholly unrelated to the degree you just obtained.

The reality is that for the vast majority of degrees, students would be better by taking approximately 2 years of courses that focus on the specific course of study. If you want to be a pharmacist - study pharmacy and not history or literature or all the other things that are totally unrelated to pharmacy. (You could take them if you wanted you just wouldn't required to do so).

You can obtain a 2 year degree in interior design at the community college for a small fraction of the cost to obtain a 4 year degree in interior design. I seriously doubt that you really "need" to have that 4 year degree to be an interior designer and I question the value of the additional cost.

I don't doubt the personal satisfaction of taking courses that are unrelated to your major. However, in many instances they can be stumbling blocks to obtaining a degree at all and - at best - are simply a very expensive route to personal fulfillment. I enjoyed some of the courses I took in college that were totally unrelated to my future career. However, in the modern word, that knowledge could have been acquired many other ways that were far cheaper.

It often seems that everyone expects everybody - regardless of aptitude or interests - to obtain a 4 year degree. This is how you end up having careers that used to require 1 or 2 years of training now requiring a bachelor's degree. But the reality is that that 4 year degree was not and is not really needed.

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Author: rubberthinking Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415577 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/11/2013 2:31 AM
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Determined,

on many levels you are right. The quote you took from a prior post runs from some not needing more education to most college material needing the education. I ran the gamut without broadening out the ideas involved.

That said we live in a world where not getting a college degree for whatever reasons, ie lack of money or aptitude, means the odds for needing welfare of any stripe goes up.

I'd really like to see the numbers for unemployed v. employed, welfare v. higher salaries etc for less educated people v. more educated numbers. We all have some idea that unemployment for college grads is lower, but I wish we had some information on how to compare the numbers as to who ends up in prisons, perhaps who gets an education from a group of poorer folks and then ends up with how much more in income etc.....

Right now such numbers and ideas probably exist somewhere in the govt.

I guess we need better info on cost benefit analysis to really know if society benefits on the whole and from what percentage of folks in the population getting what amount of education.

Another question becomes if we educate more people will GDP growth go up? And not in today's economic milieu, but after 2020.

Dave

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Author: Dwdonhoff Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415607 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/11/2013 12:06 PM
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Hi Dave,

So if the millionaires of this world stop investing in hedge funds and begin to invest in their businesses we will see those numbers all change for the better.

If the hedge funds no longer have investors, where will the millionaires of this world turn to for their own busines equity financing? #Conundrum

;~D

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415635 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/11/2013 8:58 PM
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Khan Academy provides great lectures on technical material, but very little on humanities and there is no classroom experience at all. To be educational it needs to be combined with other materials and experiences. - crassfool

You won't get any argument on that from Mr. Khan. That's why his site has extensive support features designed for the use of classroom teachers - designed in cooperation with actual classroom teachers who use Khan Academy as part of their formal curriculum.

And why there's now a fairly substantial organization trying to beef up the course offerings.

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Author: PolymerMom Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415640 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/11/2013 11:17 PM
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Dave,

Here's an article from two years ago, comparing education level vs. unemployment rates.

http://www.businessinsider.com/gap-between-unemployment-amon...

For the rest of your questions, I suggest using Google. The above article turned up on this query: "unemployment rates vs education level". The results included BLS tables, as well as the above article.

PM

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Author: putnid Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415642 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/11/2013 11:41 PM
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I guess we need better info on cost benefit analysis to really know if society benefits on the whole and from what percentage of folks in the population getting what amount of education. - Dave

The following report doesn't answer all your questions, but it provides a good overview of the benefits of a college (and higher) education:

http://tinyurl.com/4xmlzz2

On average:
• A high school dropout can expect to earn $973,000 over a lifetime.
• Someone with a high school diploma can expect to earn $1.3 million over a lifetime.
• A worker with some college but no degree earns $1.5 million over a lifetime.
• An Associate’s degree-holder earns $1.7 million over a lifetime.
• A worker with a Bachelor’s degree will earn $2.3 million over a lifetime.
Graduate degrees confer even higher earnings:
• A Master’s degree-holder earns $2.7 million over a lifetime.
• A Doctoral degree-holder earns $3.3 million over a lifetime.
• A Professional degree-holder earns $3.6 million over a lifetime.


But:

Occupations can trump degree levels. People with less education can sometimes out-earn people with more, principally because of occupational differences.

But:

While occupation can sometimes trump education, degree level still matters most within individual occupations.

Within an occupation, workers with higher educational attainment almost always make more than those with less, rewarding employees who continue their studies, even when they keep the same job. For example, accountants and auditors with a high school diploma make $1.5 million over a lifetime, compared with $1.7 million for accountants and auditors with some college, $2.4 million for accountants and auditors with a Bachelor’s degree, and $3 million for accountants and auditors with a graduate degree. The same pattern generally holds within all occupations.


And:

Race/ethnicity and gender are wild cards that can trump everything else in determining earnings.

Women earn less than men, even when they work the same number of hours — a gap that persists across all levels of educational attainment. In fact, women with a Bachelor’s degree earn about as much as men with some college education but no degree. On average, to earn as much as men with a Bachelor’s degree, women must obtain a Doctoral degree. Similar gaps also exist by race and ethnicity. African-Americans and Latinos earn less than their White counterparts, even among the most highly-educated workers. African-Americans and Latinos with master’s degrees don’t exceed the median lifetime earnings of Whites with Bachelor’s degrees. However, at the graduate degree level, Asians make more than all other races/ethnicities, including Whites.


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Author: determinedmom Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415644 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/11/2013 11:43 PM
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That said we live in a world where not getting a college degree for whatever reasons, ie lack of money or aptitude, means the odds for needing welfare of any stripe goes up.

I'd really like to see the numbers for unemployed v. employed, welfare v. higher salaries etc for less educated people v. more educated numbers. We all have some idea that unemployment for college grads is lower, but I wish we had some information on how to compare the numbers as to who ends up in prisons, perhaps who gets an education from a group of poorer folks and then ends up with how much more in income etc.....


I have no doubt that people who are less educated as a group probably do need welfare or are unemployed as a group more than people who are more educated. But, I don't really think that changes my point.

First - I don't think in my ideal world that the person who has aptitude and a desire to do the kind of academic work that requires a bachelor's degree should ever not be able to obtain the degree due to lack of money.

Second - In the real world, not everyone has the ability (aptitude, talent, whatever you want to call it) to obtain a bachelor's degree. And, if not, it wastes everyone's time to try to tell that person that their ambition in life should be to obtain an academic 4 year degree.

Third - In the real world, there are people who have that ability but whose interests are otherwise. I know it is pretty much a heresy to say that some people don't want a bachelor's degree and that it is OK not to want one because you want to do something else with your life. Why isn't it OK to choose to be a carpenter or a hairdresser or a chef because that is what you want to do even if you had ability to obtain a bachelor's degree?

Fourth - I think that the chances of welfare, etc. probably depend a lot on what type of job training you do have. The person who dropped out of high school and has no skills is in a very different group that the person who has a 2 year associate's degree a field with bright employment prospects. Further you can't compare the chances of welfare of, say, a plumber of 20 years experience the 19 year old unskilled high school dropout.

Finally - My larger point is that the way we are doing it in this country isn't right. Two many fields require a bachelor's degree. More and more you see fields of study turning from 2 year programs to 4 year programs when, really, change ought to be going the other way. I am all for making college affordable (without crushing student loans) for kids who have the ability and desire for a 4 year degree. I just want to see fewer courses of study that require such a degree and I want to see kids being given more options.

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Author: rubberthinking Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415646 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/12/2013 12:08 AM
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Finally - My larger point is that the way we are doing it in this country isn't right. Two many fields require a bachelor's degree. More and more you see fields of study turning from 2 year programs to 4 year programs when, really, change ought to be going the other way. I am all for making college affordable (without crushing student loans) for kids who have the ability and desire for a 4 year degree. I just want to see fewer courses of study that require such a degree and I want to see kids being given more options.

Determined,

I agree with your largest point the most. We do however need a balancing act between societal needs and individual needs, so we need to raise the idea of a cost associated with not graduating high school and not being able to go on for higher education. Of all the places where this country is failing that is primarily it, high schools not able to graduate more students.



However, at the graduate degree level, Asians make more than all other races/ethnicities, including Whites.


Putnid,

thanks for the article/report etc.....

Asian/Indian/Russian degrees fall into a few camps. People are extremely talented and get fantastic educations or people get a piece of paper and really cant do anything at all or people get an advanced piece of paper in cutting hair. Not all Asian degrees are standardized as much as in the US or EU. That was true till schools went online, now we have the Phoenix which puts out useless degrees online. If you ask a major employer if they will hire a Phoenix graduate they will tell you flat out, 'no', as of a few years ago. Y'all can correct me if that has changed.

I have a small story of a local gasoline station that hired a guy from Hong Kong with a Ph.D in chemical engineering. In the afternoons many guys would get together over coffee. This gas station was in a conservative valley where I live. I am the almost the only liberal in the group. This Ph.D in chem eng is still probably working for Fuel Cell out of Torrington, CT. He was a process engineer which entailed answering questions if the workers had any questions. This Ph.D was a very poor speaker in English after 12 years in the US. The story goes back about two years now.

The Ph.D could not operate the cash register at the gas station. And he seemed to be in need of sleep all the time. Lines would form and the good old American boys would get irate as you can imagine.

So one day I suggested that a Ph.D from China was not "NECESSARILY" "ALWAYS" the same as a Ph.D in the states.

The good old boys began to challenge this guy on his credentials. And at first the attendant moved down from claiming a Ph.D to a Masters, and so the boys began to question the Masters....and then the Bachelors, and then the two year degree, and then the processing cert...and finally the high school diploma......nothing....the guy had literally nothing, but a lie to enter this nation and a friend possibly at his company that got him a job over the Americans who needed jobs.

ofw,

Dave

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415652 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/12/2013 12:53 AM
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putnid says

I'm not disagreeing with you on fundamental grounds, because I, too, believe in the classroom experience and the give and take between teachers and pupils. However, I still remember my Inorganic Chemistry 101 class my freshman year of college which consisted of some 100+ students and a mediocre (at best) professor. The class (at a major state university) was designed to cull students from the science curriculum right from the git go. It did just that. Khan Academy lectures represent a vast improvement on that model.

Of course, because the lectures are so very good.


Education became far more enlightening when I entered graduate studies with small class sizes and dedicated professors. There's no substituting THAT experience with video lectures.

I'm spoiled, went to a small liberal-arts school where there were no lecture courses. There were lectures, but they were always integrated with small-group discussions led by professors who were there to teach.

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Author: rubberthinking Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415653 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/12/2013 12:59 AM
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I'm spoiled, went to a small liberal-arts school where there were no lecture courses. There were lectures, but they were always integrated with small-group discussions led by professors who were there to teach.

crassfool,

My public high school had some offerings like that. Those experiences were invaluable.

My experience at UCONN was working a job and studying over several years. I was at the local branch where classrooms were very small groups of students. That too was like what you are describing.

Thanks I did not realize how good that worked out compared to being in massive classrooms and disappearing as I did at the University of Houston in my first two years there.

Dave

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Author: rharmelink Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415656 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/12/2013 2:13 AM
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I am all for making college affordable (without crushing student loans)

Just curious -- what amount do you consider "crushing"?

A recent article I saw said:

As the price of college has soared, student loans have ballooned. In 2001, the average student debt was $17,942. By 2010, that number spiked to $26,682, according to the Pew Research Center.

From all the screaming and yelling, I thought the numbers would be a LOT more than that.

The average wedding cost is about that these days.

I went to Iowa State University. Just out of curiosity, I checked the financial aid area of their website. Estimates for tuition, fees, books, and supplies currently run less than $9K per year.

*confused*

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Author: MegHammond Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415672 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/12/2013 9:25 AM
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Sorry, you can only recommend a post to the Best of once.

This discussion seems to provoke a fair amount of black and white thinking, regardless of the board it shows up on.

Thank you for persistently pointing out the nuances and the need for flexibility.

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Author: rubberthinking Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415673 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/12/2013 9:39 AM
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This discussion seems to provoke a fair amount of black and white thinking, regardless of the board it shows up on.

Thank you for persistently pointing out the nuances and the need for flexibility.


sorry Meg,

but there is flexibility in the system. Anyone can get a two year degree or become a plumber if they have the aptitude to do what is before them.

And if you have a larger aptitude you can go to Harvard or Yale. The system is plenty flexible. You can always make your circumstances better with time and go back to school. In many parts of the first world going back to school as an older adult if frowned upon, not so in the US.

Too many Americans dont want responsibility, just my opinion. While a majority of silent Americans actually do want responsibility. Life is what you make of it.

But here is a new case in point:

http://news.yahoo.com/lehigh-university-student-got-c-124956...

A graduate of Lehigh University in Bethlehem, Pa. has sued the school for $1.3 million because she is unhappy that she got a C+ in a class in 2009.

Megan Thode, 27, says the grade ruined her dream of becoming a licensed professional counselor, reports The Morning Call, an Allentown-based newspaper. Her civil suit alleges breach of contract and sexual discrimination. It contends that the grade was part of a broader attempt to force her to abandon the graduate degree she was pursuing.

“I think if your honor changed the grade, you’d be the first court in the history of jurisprudence to change an academic grade,” Hamburg told the judge presiding over the case. “She has to get through the program. She has to meet the academic standards.”

Hamburg pointed out that Thode is the daughter of Lehigh finance professor Stephen Thode. One of the perks of that relationship was that she was able to enroll in the Lehigh graduate program tuition-free. The school provided her with a job as well. She also got to attend York College of Pennsylvania at no charge as an undergraduate thanks to her Lehigh connections, says The Call.

Thode was on the witness stand Monday. Another Lehigh attorney, Michael Sacks, grilled her about her free ride.

“Even after you sued Lehigh, you were getting free tuition and working for Lehigh?” Sacks queried.

“Yes,” Thode answered.

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Author: determinedmom Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415718 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/12/2013 4:43 PM
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Just curious -- what amount do you consider "crushing"?


I'm not sure there is any one number. I would consider a loan that would take many years to repay crushing. Also, a loan that is out of whack in comparison to expected compensation.
.

I went to Iowa State University. Just out of curiosity, I checked the financial aid area of their website. Estimates for tuition, fees, books, and supplies currently run less than $9K per year.


Unless a student just happens to live near a state university that the student can get into and which offers the course of student that the student wants to take then the student will likely also have room and board costs which are often as much or even more than the cost of tuition, etc. Some student do live close to such a university and can live at home at lower cost but for most I doubt that is really an option. I am a big believer in taking the first couple of years at community college for most students.

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Author: rharmelink Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415722 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/12/2013 5:45 PM
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I would consider a loan that would take many years to repay crushing

But that same average amount isn't crushing, for the cost of a wedding?

Also, a loan that is out of whack in comparison to expected compensation.

In the past, the expected lifetime difference in compensation was a million or more. If that still held true (and I don't think it will or does), that would be about a 9-10% compounded annual return on a $26K investment over a career.

Today, I think expected compensation varies significantly depending on the type of degree. For example, I'm not sure a plain vanilla B.A. is worth near as much as a B.S. in a technical field.

In college, my roommate's field was Aerospace Engineering. I wouldn't have survived his curriculum. I was too lazy. Because of what I saw in the engineering college at ISU, it always irks me a bit when someone presumptously adds "engineer" to their job title.

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Author: rharmelink Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415723 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/12/2013 6:00 PM
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Unless a student just happens to live near a state university that the student can get into and which offers the course of student that the student wants to take then the student will likely also have room and board costs which are often as much or even more than the cost of tuition, etc. Some student do live close to such a university and can live at home at lower cost but for most I doubt that is really an option.

The ISU estimates were that room and board would be about 40% of the total annual costs.

When I went there, my dad paid tuition only (I got a monthly allowance). But he told me that at 18, I was an adult and had to pay for my own room and board. So I worked in the food service for 15 hours a week to pay for them. In hindsight, I'm grateful to him for that decision.

I am a big believer in taking the first couple of years at community college for most students.

As long as they make sure the credits are transferable...

But there's no reason to pay premium prices for plain vanilla credits.

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Author: spinning Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415724 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/12/2013 6:43 PM
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You wrote

In college, my roommate's field was Aerospace Engineering. I wouldn't have survived his curriculum. I was too lazy

And
But he told me that at 18, I was an adult and had to pay for my own room and board. So I worked in the food service for 15 hours a week to pay for them.

Doesn't sound lazy to me. If you had devoted that 15 hours a week to studying could you have made it through the engineering curriculum?

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Author: rharmelink Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415727 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/12/2013 8:58 PM
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Doesn't sound lazy to me. If you had devoted that 15 hours a week to studying could you have made it through the engineering curriculum?

No. (And my engineering roommate and I shared a lot of the same shifts, since he worked for his room and board as well. And he had a second job at Red Lobster on the weekends. He ended up working for Boeing.)

My laziness was ingrained, because school had always been too easy and I had never really learned good study habits.

PS: One of the things I found hilarious when looking at the university's website is that the entire campus is now alcohol free. Alcohol was almost constantly flowing when I lived in the dorms. Myself, never liked alcohol, or coffee, or tea, or tobacco. But I do love me my sugar and chocolate.

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Author: determinedmom Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415729 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/12/2013 9:09 PM
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But that same average amount isn't crushing, for the cost of a wedding?

Personally I think it is insane for most people to send $26,000 on a wedding. There are basically 2 kinds of weddings - those paid for by parents and those paid for by the couple getting married (with some being a combination of both). I got married when I was in my 30s and I looked at typically wedding costs and thought they were insane. SO DH and I paid for a very inexpensive wedding and my parents gave us a nice cash wedding present and I've never regretted not having a big wedding.

None of my kids are married yet, but I can guarantee you I won't be paying $26,000 for any of their weddings either. I just think that is a total waste of money. I will offer each of them a modest amount which they can spend on the wedding or can simply keep as a wedding present.

Student loans are sort of like weddings. On some of them the parents pay and on others the students pay. I still feel that too many student loans do impose crushing debt.

From a METAR point of view, it concerns me that college tuition keeps going up and up with seemingly no end in sight while real incomes are not commensurately increasing. So the cost of education relative to future income keeps going up. This is why the student loans are a problem. The cost of education versus the economic rewards is getting more and more out of whack.

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Author: determinedmom Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415730 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/12/2013 9:12 PM
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Re community college:

As long as they make sure the credits are transferable...

But there's no reason to pay premium prices for plain vanilla credits.


Agree on both counts. Thankfully, in the state where I live it is made extremely clear what transfers and what doesn't.

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Author: rubberthinking Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415740 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/13/2013 1:30 AM
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If the hedge funds no longer have investors, where will the millionaires of this world turn to for their own busines equity financing? #Conundrum

;~D

Dave,

we both know there is no conundrum. The millionaires of this world pull themselves up by the bootstraps. They dont need hedge funds to raise capital for them.

Dave

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Author: brucedoe Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415744 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/13/2013 2:35 AM
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rubber

Though I like some of your posts, you seem to be unaware that the bootstrap for most millionaires is inheritance. Then there are others like Bill Gates (who came from a wealthy family, incidentally) got his bootstrap by "restraint of trade."* But at least Gates is trying to do good works with all that money.

I suppose Warren Buffet (who granted did not rise from poverty) may be the most moral of the wealthiest people who made it in business.

I received no inheritance, though my wife did, which put us into the millionaire category for quite awhile until we gifted out home to one son and summer cottage to the other and paid cash to move into a continuing care facility. So we have dipped below that sacred figure of a million.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that most millionaires who rise out of poverty do it through professional sports and, perhaps, some from other parts of the entertainment industry like acting. The funny part of this is that a lot of people feel they are overpaid. Of course some (many?) athletes along the way cheated as have wealthy business men. I have a blog piece on Legitimate and Illegitimate Cheating at http://stopcontinentaldrift.blogspot.com/2012/09/legitimate-.... I quote one paragraph as a teaser:

And women's sports are even more strange. A person may look like a woman and even possibly bear children but might not be considered a woman because she has a high testosterone level in the level of males that is 7 to 30 nanomoles per liter of blood whereas most women have 3 nanomoles or somewhat less.** Thus what is called women's sports is actually low level of testosterone sports. But what if you are a male at the lower level of testosterone? You just have to deal with it. Maybe sports are not for you. Women with complete androgen insensitivity (another male hormone) may compete in the Olympics.

* You may have forgotten that all desktop computer had to have DOS even if you bought it with a different operating system.

brucedoe

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Author: rubberthinking Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415745 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/13/2013 2:54 AM
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brucedoe,

good to hear from you.

I was responding to the other Dave, the banker. His philosophy is that the bootstraps is the only way that counts. I hear you though most people inherit.

We had a national problem in that hedge funds and LBOs were churning capital and not creating much by way of real wealth or GDP growth more specifically. The American Taxpayer Relief Act changes the tax code making the funding of hedge funds not so well worth it any more. On another thread I posted a link from Bloomberg earlier today on this topic. But the author of the article on said funds, in particular LBOs, did not mention the Taxpayer Relief Act. I am sighting the thinking in Congress behind the act.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-12/buyout-boom-shakeou...

My post was on the topic to which the other Dave bled his response onto this thread or visa versa. I think the other Dave and I agree on personal responsibility and what would be considered good outcomes for anyone or any business, but we disagree on whether there is a roll for collectivism in America. That disagreement is actually only by shades of gray. It is hardly black and white to me at least.

My post:

http://boards.fool.com/blame-the-american-taxpayer-relief-ac...

have a good night brucedoe,

Dave

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415780 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/13/2013 2:32 PM
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PS: One of the things I found hilarious when looking at the university's website is that the entire campus is now alcohol free.

When I went to college the dorms were definitely alcohol free. I'd say that not more than 80% of the male students had a bottle of some sort of hooch in their dorm rooms. The percentage was probably lower, but still over 50%, for female students.

And higher among those, male or female, who weren't old enough to drink.

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415781 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/13/2013 2:34 PM
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Personally I think it is insane for most people to send $26,000 on a wedding. There are basically 2 kinds of weddings - those paid for by parents and those paid for by the couple getting married (with some being a combination of both). I got married when I was in my 30s and I looked at typically wedding costs and thought they were insane. SO DH and I paid for a very inexpensive wedding and my parents gave us a nice cash wedding present and I've never regretted not having a big wedding.

One of the smartest moves I've heard of was by a man whose daughter was planning a really big expensive wedding. He handed her a check for a pretty substantial amount. And he said, "That's to pay for your wedding. And your honeymoon. And to give you and your husband a starting nest-egg. There will be no more. You figure out the best use of it."

Suddenly the wedding plan started shedding extravagances.

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Author: notehound Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 415792 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/13/2013 3:55 PM
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When I went to college the dorms were definitely alcohol free. I'd say that not more than 80% of the male students had a bottle of some sort of hooch in their dorm rooms.

Our campus was definitely alcohol-free. Nonetheless, I kept a bottle of brandy under my bed "for medicinal purposes" until I got ratted out by a suite mate who mentioned it to the RA.

I got demerits, but I didn't have any previously - so no serious trouble ensued.

;-)

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Author: brucedoe Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416016 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/16/2013 3:16 PM
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Dave

I too am all for personal responsibility. One of the strong tenants of the Twelve Step Programs is you must take responsibility for your actions. One recovering alcoholic told me, however, that only 3% of alcoholics go to an AA meeting and only 3% of those stay in AA for a year. For many, personal responsibility may be difficult to achieve, unfortunately.

brucedoe

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Author: patchdodd Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416045 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/17/2013 8:59 AM
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rubber

Though I like some of your posts, you seem to be unaware that the bootstrap for most millionaires is inheritance.


brucedoe, roughly 80% of all millionaires in this country are self-made. Primary vehicles are medicine and finance.

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Author: Woolybooger1 Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416046 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/17/2013 10:27 AM
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I will jump in here because it is common practice to quote such "facts" without basis, so here is a link and the numbers to go with it.

Business has been and always will be the number one way to amass a fortune. Whether through manufacturing a product or the sales person who sells it.

These are the facts.......... not just "spin".....

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/03/26/surprising-job-that-g...


Millionaire Household Occupations


Occupation...........Percent of Millionaires


Manager...............................17%


Educator..............................12%


Sr. Corporate Executive........7%


Business Owner....................6%


Accountant...........................4%


Sales Person.........................4%


Attorney..............................2%


Doctor/Dentist.....................2%


Source: Spectrem Group Millionaire Corner

********************************************************

Now having put up the actual facts, it is obvious that more who have professional degrees will end up in that millionaire category for multiple reasons. It is the same reason they were able to achieve their degrees in the first place. The willingness to delay gratification and the determination to apply themselves to their careers. Plenty of other vocations have the same qualities, but not as high of a percentage within their own group. I know this is kind of obvious, but I really like accurate data on this board.


Wooly............ who has a great 100 hour a week job and Lives below his means......

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Author: tim443 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416048 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/17/2013 11:01 AM
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Wooly

No bankers? I assumed they just helped themselves whenever they felt the need, then what about criminals, you would expect they would be on the list... unless of course they don't fill out their occupation on the form, but of course I repeat myself. }};-D

Any <on the fridges of reality> mouse

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Author: rubberthinking Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416059 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/17/2013 12:50 PM
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Any <on the fridges of reality> mouse

oh forgive me perfect one.

Dave

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Author: patchdodd Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416069 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/17/2013 2:08 PM
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No spin. My source was here:

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/real-1-percent

I missed this important sentence: "Roughly a third were entrepreneurs or managers of nonfinancial businesses." because is wasn't enumerated in the text.

I feel no obligation to post links, but I do feel an obligation to defend myself against charges of intellectual laziness.

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Author: Woolybooger1 Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416070 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/17/2013 2:39 PM
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patchdodd,

I went back and read my post. You said you felt there was a charge of intellectual laziness. I really don't see that in my post, but it was in fact the case.

A post was made that was incorrect. Yours. I wanted to put up the correct facts which while slightly different in the exact numbers, agrees with the link you put up. Plain and simple business is the main way millionaires are made. I appreciate you putting up the link and explaining the oversight, but you are a good poster and I figured it was just a boo boo.

I read many sources and the numbers seem to jump around quite a bit. The bottom line is there were many ways to be successful and attain wealth, and it more was up to the individual than the route they took.

Good investing

Wooly.................often times makes boo-boos, but not at work.. :)

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416104 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/17/2013 7:49 PM
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I feel no obligation to post links, ...

In which case we'd feel no obligation to believe your statement(s) to be any more than hot air pulled out of your hat.

A link gives readers a chance to read the entire quoted statement to see if the quote isn't being quoted out of context.

C'mon, is it that hard to post a link?

Desert (anti-imperious) Dave

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Author: patchdodd Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416106 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/17/2013 8:19 PM
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In which case we'd feel no obligation to believe your statement(s) to be any more than hot air pulled out of your hat.


I feel no compulsion to be believed. I post things that I believe to be accurate and take care to vet them. Feel free to do your own research. I did.

Or put me on ignore. I couldn't care less.

Oddly, I am getting raked over the barnacles despite my accurate primary rebuttal about the source of most millionaires' wealth, a point that no one else has had the courage to refute. I was correct in this. My secondary points were only to add context, they were not relevant to the argument. I missed a sentence. Shrug. So two of the top three sources of earned (rather than inherited) wealth are medical and finance rather than the top two. There. All better.


You are making this about me. It isn't.

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416116 of 465374
Subject: Re: Value of College Date: 2/17/2013 9:51 PM
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Or put me on ignore.

I don't put anyone on ignore (no matter how much they deserve it) I just discount their validity.

Desert (ah, arrogance, one wonders what they're ashamed of) Dave

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