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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 459217  
Subject: VW one more time Date: 2/22/2014 11:32 AM
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Ok, hate it when you're busy and only catch part of something on TV. And then they never repeat it.

Thought I heard on FOX this AM that the UAW wage rate would be LOWER than the current wage rate at the TN VW plant. Didn't say anything about other benefits, etc.

Unfortunately I can't find any thing on it. This is the closest.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/02/22/auto-workers-unio...

What is ironic or disturbing, the UAW is appealing to the NLRB to allow another vote (yes, it was close, about 700-600 against). But this reminds me of politicians that keep putting tax increases on the ballot after it has been rejected by voters.

JLC
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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445212 of 459217
Subject: Re: VW one more time Date: 2/22/2014 11:43 AM
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OK, piecing a few things together.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405274870408390...

From 2011...

VW starts at $14.50 while UAW was $14. Total benefits around $38/hr at VW while UAW is anywhere from $58-70 depending on who and where you worked.

Can't find current stats.

JLC

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Author: rubberthinking Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445216 of 459217
Subject: Re: VW one more time Date: 2/22/2014 12:06 PM
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JLC,

There is a basic list of things never to watch on TV while alone or in company. This list contains massive amount of misinformation tailor made to confuse, divided and abuse the audiences.

CNBC
FOX
CNN
MSNBC
C-SPAN

If you watch anything on these channels please do not discuss the misinformation on this board. We want to see doctors in a better light. You know as educated.

Dave

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Author: Jeanwa Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445220 of 459217
Subject: Re: VW one more time Date: 2/22/2014 12:25 PM
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it's not all about wages/benefits.

From what I understand VW wants to have a works council. If I understand this right that is not possible in the US without a union.

It sounds like this is a big deal.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/19/us-vw-usplant-idUS...

I don't know why it would be illegal without a union.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2014/02/18/vw-uaw-chat...

There's a lot of articles about it, but I can't find why it's illegal.

https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=&...

Jean

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Author: steve203 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445221 of 459217
Subject: Re: VW one more time Date: 2/22/2014 12:27 PM
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The union has a right to complain about third party interference. Much of what was going on, like pols saying VW would not receive any incentives for plant expansion if the union won, was over the top.

Even without an NLRB ruling for a new election, the union can come back and try again in iirc, two years. The Teamsters tried repeatedly to organize the warehouse I worked in in the late 90s. The union didn't lose the vote at VW by much, iirc a swing of 45 votes and they would have been in.

VW starts at $14.50 while UAW was $14. Total benefits around $38/hr at VW while UAW is anywhere from $58-70

And VW workers in Puebla make $30 per day

VW's Mexican pay schedule is competitive.

In Mexico, auto industry fuels middle class

Nissan gives Luis Moreno $130 a week. For that, he works four 12-hour shifts,...Moreno earns roughly one-seventh as much as a comparable worker at Nissan’s U.S. plants in Canton, Miss., and Smyrna, Tenn.

His wife is a homemaker. Their entire family is covered by a company-subsidized health insurance policy that costs the equivalent of $4 a week. Next year, Moreno — the son of a day laborer — thinks he will buy his first car, a Nissan, with a loan financed by the company. The mortgage on the family’s $27,000 home is $210 a month, deducted automatically from his Nissan paycheck.

After 17 years processing engine blocks as a machinist, Ruben Flores, 47, makes just $160 a week. Still, he owns a five-bedroom house, a Nissan Frontier pickup and a Nissan Altima sedan, and his two children are on track for professional degrees.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/in-mexico-a...

The linked article talks about how the Nissan union is run by Nissan, and never strikes. This is not always the case as VW Puebla has a strike from time to time.

Lastly, the agenda of Fox News and the WSJ is well known. The militancy of union opposition could easily mean the next VW expansion will be in Mexico, not the US.

Steve

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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445223 of 459217
Subject: Re: VW one more time Date: 2/22/2014 12:43 PM
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the agenda of Fox News and the WSJ is well known.

So is the agenda of ABC, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, PBS, NPR, CBS, the NY Times, the WaPo, etc.

Here's a union story that should gladden Steve's heart:

http://boards.fool.com/how-can-i-join-this-union-31131888.as...

--fleg

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Author: rubberthinking Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445224 of 459217
Subject: Re: VW one more time Date: 2/22/2014 12:45 PM
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VW starts at $14.50 while UAW was $14. Total benefits around $38/hr at VW while UAW is anywhere from $58-70

It shows real class for a doctor to complain about worker's pay going slightly up or down 50 cents based on the workers having some say over the plant when the doctor is making around $300,000 give or take what $75,000 per year and he has a large say over his practice. Yes the doctor is wearing the pants, but the workers might as well go buck naked. We dont all pull our pants on one leg at a time?

Class, pure class. That is what the viewer puts in his mind by watching Fox. No group thinking there. <sarc>

Some folks are really on this planet to only care about themselves. There are no principles involved in being against a union. That would be a delusion. VW wants to get away from delusional at this point.

Meanwhile VW regardless of tax incentives will build their next manufacturing lines in Mexico because the plants there are unionized. Nice going politicians of TN. You should be up on charges as traitors. I hope the pay offs were worth it. The bull about principles does not wash.

Dave

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445247 of 459217
Subject: Re: VW one more time Date: 2/22/2014 2:58 PM
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And VW workers in Puebla make $30 per day

And you want the UN to establish a world wide minimum wage?

After 17 years processing engine blocks as a machinist, Ruben Flores, 47, makes just $160 a week. Still, he owns a five-bedroom house, a Nissan Frontier pickup and a Nissan Altima sedan, and his two children are on track for professional degrees.

There is the take home. Cost/standard of living is drastically different all over the world.

I've traveled/worked in plenty of 3rd world areas/countries. I've seen the upside of relatively cheap labor/wages and I've seen the downside of instant fortune of insanely high overnight wages*.

Lastly, the agenda of Fox News and the WSJ is well known.

As long as you equally recognize the agenda of MSNBC et al.

JLC

*When the casino industry exploded in Macau there was an upheaval in family relationships/morals. For years the mantra was work hard, make good grades, respect elders, make $X per year, life is good. Casinos came in, needed to pay $XXX to get workers. All of a sudden social norms are changed/gone. Why should I respect my elders? I make in a day what they make in a month, etc., etc., etc.

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445248 of 459217
Subject: Re: VW one more time Date: 2/22/2014 3:07 PM
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...UAW is anywhere from $58-70...

Serious question, what is in that $70/hr?

Say healthcare is $12k/year or $6/hr over a 2000 hour work year, that leaves $64/hr. Even if wages had doubled from the start of $15/hr to $30/hr, we still have $34/hr left.

Is pension and workman's comp the remainder?

And why would VW be at $38/hr?

JLC

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Author: namkato Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445250 of 459217
Subject: Re: VW one more time Date: 2/22/2014 3:13 PM
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If you watch anything on these channels please do not discuss the misinformation on this board. We want to see doctors in a better light. You know as educated.

Dave
============================

But modern art is the real deal, totally legit, you can take that to the bank.

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445251 of 459217
Subject: Re: VW one more time Date: 2/22/2014 3:14 PM
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CNBC
FOX
CNN
MSNBC
C-SPAN


I have a healthy distrust of most media. I usually channel surf and catch bits and pieces from various points of view. I figure hear all the sides and the truth lays somewhere in the middle. I was merely pointing out the origin.

As an aside, I half way joke that if something isn't mentioned on ESPN, I might not know about it. That is pretty much how disgusted I am with the media in general and how little I watch.

JLC

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Author: steve203 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445252 of 459217
Subject: Re: VW one more time Date: 2/22/2014 3:15 PM
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>>And VW workers in Puebla make $30 per day<<

And you want the UN to establish a world wide minimum wage?


What produced that conclusion?

My point is the pols in TN, and their paymasters, better watch out. VW is already paying a higher price in wages to locate in the US.

Funny how some factions love to cry about "big gummit interference" when that government requires them to actually pay workers for the hours worked and maintain a reasonably safe workplace. But when the employer is OK with working with it's workforce, rather than fighting the workers tooth and nail, then it's just fine for "big gummit" to resort to blackmail to try and bring management to heel.

Steve

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Author: steve203 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445253 of 459217
Subject: Re: VW one more time Date: 2/22/2014 3:21 PM
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Serious question, what is in that $70/hr?

My hunch is, when a company wants to cry about what it's workers cost, it probably throws in everything it can.

Is pension and workman's comp the remainder?

Probably. All retirement benefits, workman's comp insurance premiums, what the company pays for health insurance, what the company pays in Social Security tax.

And why would VW be at $38/hr?

A younger workforce? No existing retirees to pay pension or health insurance for. 401K, instead of defined benefit pension?

Steve

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Author: PucksFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445257 of 459217
Subject: Re: VW one more time Date: 2/22/2014 3:38 PM
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South Carolina's governor says take those union jobs and shove them.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/02/20/no-south...
South Carolina loves its manufacturing jobs from BMW, Michelin and Boeing and wants more.

But Gov. Nikki Haley says they're not welcome if they're bringing a unionized workforce.

"It's not something we want to see happen," she said after an appearance at an automotive conference in downtown. "We discourage any companies that have unions from wanting to come to South Carolina because we don't want to taint the water."

PF


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Author: steve203 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445268 of 459217
Subject: Re: VW one more time Date: 2/22/2014 5:36 PM
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We discourage any companies that have unions from wanting to come to South Carolina because we don't want to taint the water."

Do I catch a whiff of plantation thinking here? Like keeping ideas out of the local peon's minds so they don't get "uppity"?

Steve

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Author: BatonSinister Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445278 of 459217
Subject: Re: VW one more time Date: 2/22/2014 10:26 PM
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I don't know why it would be illegal without a union.


It isn't.

What is illegal though is for the works council to bargain away workers rights in the same way that a union can. VW may want collective bargaining because there are some aspects of US labor law that are cumbersome to their workflow.

and no, I'm not being cynical about VW's motives

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Author: rubberthinking Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445307 of 459217
Subject: Re: VW one more time Date: 2/23/2014 11:47 AM
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But modern art is the real deal, totally legit, you can take that to the bank.

Namkato

See thread with Notehound a few weeks ago on young artists. The original news story was on the Bloomberg. We mocked it up and down. I have no regard for most artists alive today. Spitting paint on a canvas without any real merit is not much in the way of art. Some still life paintings have more merit, but no real development of art for the sake of history. Intellectually the Western Art world has come to a massive slow down lasting some 50 years so far. People going into the arts are not living up to their billing.

http://boards.fool.com/young-artists-going-for-serious-money...

This was my favorite quote:

“I kind of wish my work wasn’t at auction,” said Ito, 27. “I am too young. It’s a sign of how ridiculous the art world is. It’s like market hype.”


Dave

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