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http://headwaterseconomics.org/land/west-is-best-value-of-pu...
West Is Best: Protected Lands Promote Jobs and Higher Incomes
How Public Lands in the West Create a Competitive Economic Advantage
<snip>
This report, “West Is Best: How Public Lands in the West Create a Competitive Economic Advantage” (4.7MB PDF) finds that the West’s popular national parks, monuments, wilderness areas and other public lands offer its growing high-tech and services industries a competitive advantage, which is a major reason why the western economy has outperformed the rest of the U.S. economy in key measures of growth–employment, population, and personal income–during the last four decades.

In addition, as the West’s economy shifts toward a knowledge-based economy, new research shows that protected federal public lands support faster rates of job growth and are correlated with higher levels of per capita income.
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It might also be the lack of "legacy costs" you see in some of the Northeastern and Southern states.

For example, Connecticut has a large Puerto Rican population that's a hold over from the days the Connecticut River Valley was a big shade tobacco growing region and labor was imported from the Caribbean to harvest the crop. Once those jobs dried up, that population moved to the welfare rolls.

Medicaid is another issue. Dannel Molloy, the Governor of Connecticut was on Chris Hayes show over the weekend and mentioned that the state spends $5 billion per year on Medicaid. Meanwhile the Tea-Bagger states are big on changing Medicaid to a block grant so that they can deny things like kidney transplants to poor people. A state can make themselves more competitive if they win the "race to the bottom" on the screwing the poor out of health care.

intercst
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Of course liberals, Democrats and environmentalists having been waging war of the working class for decades --- and they don't care a fig about the economic impact of putting blue collars out of work as long as they get their way.

Tens of thousands of family wage jobs were lost in the woods and small town lumber mills over the Spotted Owl --- and environmentalists cheered!

Having shut down the lumber operations, closed the mills, blown up the hydroelectric dams producing cheap, renewable power, closed mines and prevented new ones from opening, chased the cattle off public lands and so on, people like your author suggest that public lands should be reserved for the use of environmentalists and their politically correct tastes.
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What? You expect us to take seriously a document by 'Headwaters'?


There up among the top eco-whack groups like the Save the Whales idiots.....


The west prospered because it had natural resources. Primary wealth comes from resources being mined/used. Cutting down trees and selling lumber. Mining coal and metals and gold.

People didn't run to California and Nevada because there were lots of trees to gaze at. The didn't migrate to the PNW because there's lots of rain there. To the PNW, they moved initially because of the fur trade. Gazillions of dollars in pelts, shipped mostly to Europe.

Then mining.......silver, gold, uraninium. Things we still need today. Now oil.....and natural gas from 'the west'.

Same for TX....texas main industry was logging - a million acres of forests...still there today....then oil was discovered. And the economy is chugging along because of oil and natural gas which built most of the infrastructure of the state.

Folks didn't move to TX to gaze at sand dunes.


This is a prime case of liberal progressive eco-whackism at work. Now that they 'have theirs' they want to keep everyone out so they can gaze at the forest or deserts (most 'federal land' in NV, if you have ever been there - is nothing but desert)......and their navels at the same time.


t.
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Well - having been botha ski instructor and a raft guide, and having friends that make pretty good livings from protected forests by guiding and being tour operatrors, I guess I disagree that saving the last 5% of unlogged forests is a bad thing that hurts jobs. So we ran out at 95% instead of 100%. We don't need to destroy everything, do we?
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<< Well - having been botha ski instructor and a raft guide, and having friends that make pretty good livings from protected forests by guiding and being tour operatrors, I guess I disagree that saving the last 5% of unlogged forests is a bad thing that hurts jobs. So we ran out at 95% instead of 100%. We don't need to destroy everything, do we?>>



We'll just close those ski slopes to "protect" them and keep those nasty river befoulers and their unnatural raftsw off the river to prevent them from disturbing the salmon, or whatever.

The idea of "saving" wilderness for the use of people is now obsolete, and we can get on with the job of getting the tourists out of the wilderness areas so they can be preserved for untemmeled "nature."

Sorry, but your job goes on the trash heap along with the others destroyed by environmentalists.



Seattle Pioneer
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4.4% of the land area of the United States is in the National Wilderness Protection System (signed into law by a republican by the way). A lot of that is "Rocks and Ice". Somehow, I don't think that is as horribly crippling to the economy as you seem to think.

Heck, I was in Seattle over the summer spending money go to Mount Ranier, Olyimpic National Park, and viewing those job killing killer whales. I wouldn't have been there if it was all clear cuts and dead fish.

Come to Washington and see our clear cuts and dead fish!!

Not much of a tourist slogan.
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what...half of Alaska is 'government lands'? And half of NV?

You really think they need all that?

just how many million acres of AK do you need to 'preserve'?


And same for Nevada?


If it's not wilderness, it's other regulations that limit the land to being useful for next to nothing.

No drilling or mining allowed. NO roads can be constructed.....no 'temporary' facilities....no disturbing this or that newly discovered 'endangered species'......that they didn't even know about yesterday....or care about.

Face it ...the greenies don't want you there, but want it for themselves to go and gaze at their navels and the view in the distance...

t



t.
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<<Heck, I was in Seattle over the summer spending money go to Mount Ranier, Olyimpic National Park, >>


If it were Mt Rainier and Olympic National Park, I agree it wouldn't be much of an issue.

But tens of thousands of family wage job were lost in the woods an mills, sacrificed on the environmental alter of the Spotted Owl. Two hydroelectric dams in Washington State and another in Oregon have been destroyed in the past year. Environmentalists made a run at digging up four major dams on the Snake River in Washington during the Clinton administration, and are busily working to get the courts to order their destruction.

Then there's the North Cascades National Park, where environmentalists are working to have Grizzly Bears introduced, which will cause a lot of rational backpacker to go somewhere else.

National Park camping rules are being made ever more stringent which excludes more and more human activities in national parks. Back country lakes which used to be stocked with trout now often have poison applied to them to kill off "non native" fish --- which often means all of them.

This is the environmental extremism which is ever more pervasive on public lands.

Theodore Roosevelt promoted multiple use of public lands. The environmental extremists of today want only their ever more extreme policies to dominate public land use.



Seattle Pioneer
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But tens of thousands of family wage job were lost in the woods an mills, sacrificed on the environmental alter of the Spotted Owl

Those jobs weren't lost due to the spotted owl, they were lost because 95% of the old growth forests were logged and there was hardly any left. The spotted owl was used as an excuse to save the last 5%.

Those jobs would have been lost anyway when the last tree was cut. Now we have some old growth forest left. Painful to be sure, but worth it in the long run.

I can't say I disagree with you on the Grizzly Bear issue. I've backpacked in Yellowstone. I didn't sleep the entire trip.

Once you lose an environmental fight, you have lost forever. That tends to make environmentalists more extreme. Good for them.
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Much, if not all, NV federal govt land is occupied by the military. Areas 51 and 52 abut Nellis AFB, and is where they have tested and continue to test advanced aircraft and weapons systems such as bombs, the U2 spy plane, air combat training, and stealth technology--also the MIG that was stolen from the Iraqi Air Force by a defector in the 60s (he was ordered to bomb the Kurds and instead flew to Israel--interesting story!).

We've driven by this region, including looking down over it from the mountains between Las Vegas and St George, Utah. Saw some air force planes flying about. It's pretty country, desolate with some beautiful rock formations--and we saw a coyote loping by Area 51 (didn;t appear to be an alien coyote-), but I guess we have to do testing somewhere. I feel the same way about logging--we have to do it somewhere, but not everywhere. Whether or not the spotted-owl habitat was the best place to save, I couldn't say. But if you live in a nicely treed neighborhood, tele & SP, I bet you wouldn't like to see all the trees clear cut around you either.
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<< But tens of thousands of family wage job were lost in the woods an mills, sacrificed on the environmental alter of the Spotted Owl

Those jobs weren't lost due to the spotted owl, they were lost because 95% of the old growth forests were logged and there was hardly any left. The spotted owl was used as an excuse to save the last 5%.>>



Large amounts of land affected by Spotted Owl rulings were in second growth forests. And of course the Spotted Owl was just an excuse for powerful special interests to take control of land away from the native Americans who lived on it for the second time. The first time that was done it was done to Indians. The second time it was done it was done to the white working class that occupied most of this rural territory and small mill towns and such. Of course, in both cases these groups were despised and held in contempt by those elite groups as their ability to use the land was taken away from them.



Seattle Pioneer
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<<But if you live in a nicely treed neighborhood, tele & SP, I bet you wouldn't like to see all the trees clear cut around you either.>>



You would be wrong. Trees, especially large trees are a nuisance in most residential areas. They are the chief cause of power outages after wind and snowstorms and such.

When I buy real estate, I clear cut the property of trees (other than fruit trees) asap to avoid tree issues.




Seattle Pioneer
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"<<But if you live in a nicely treed neighborhood, tele & SP, I bet you wouldn't like to see all the trees clear cut around you either.>> "

Texas has a million acres of trees and hundreds of millions are made chopping them down each year. They grow back. Industry plants more trees than they cut down.

Logging has been going on in Texas for over 150 years successfully.

I see no reason why it should not be the same out west. Oh....you can't cut those trees because, duh, that forest was never cut once? But right next to it is second and 3rd growth forest doing just as well , if not better.

Yeah..just wait for a forest fire....and see what happens. in 30 years the forest is growing massively again....

The greenies main goal is to depopulate rural America and stuff everyone in econo-box teeny apartments in gigantic complexes where they can ride mass transit to their ever boring make work government jobs shuffling paper and doing each others taxes.


t.
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Much, if not all, NV federal govt land is occupied by the military.

======================================================

Good grief, look it up. 85% of the land in Nevada is Federal land. Most of that is BLM and Forest Service.

The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) administers nearly 48 million acres of public land in Nevada. BLM public lands make up about 67 percent of Nevada's land base.

http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en.html


Here's a map. You see all that yellow that's BLM land.

http://nationalatlas.gov/printable/printableViewer.htm?imgF=...

From this site

http://nationalatlas.gov/printable/printableViewer.htm?imgF=...

Talk about uninformed!

Jean
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Those jobs weren't lost due to the spotted owl, they were lost because 95% of the old growth forests were logged and there was hardly any left. The spotted owl was used as an excuse to save the last 5%.

Those jobs would have been lost anyway when the last tree was cut. Now we have some old growth forest left. Painful to be sure, but worth it in the long run.

I can't say I disagree with you on the Grizzly Bear issue. I've backpacked in Yellowstone. I didn't sleep the entire trip.

Once you lose an environmental fight, you have lost forever. That tends to make environmentalists more extreme. Good for them.
==================================================

I wonder how you would feel if they moved to close all the ski resorts and access for your rafting?


Jean
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"I feel the same way about logging--we have to do it somewhere, but not everywhere. Whether or not the spotted-owl habitat was the best place to save, I couldn't say. " - alstromeria


If it were up to me no old growth forests anywhere would be allowed to be cut.

I'd sooner get rid of the excess people than the trees. We've got plenty of people but not enough old growth forests.

When the Earth is down to around 250 Million people on it then maybe I'll change my mind.

Art
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"Texas has a million acres of trees and hundreds of millions are made chopping them down each year. They grow back. Industry plants more trees than they cut down." - tele


Monoculture forests of trees in straight rows is not the same thing as a diversified ecologically healthy forest.

We are talking two very different things here. It's sort of like golf courses. They are very pretty to look at but ecologically speaking they are essentially ecological deserts. Extremely unhealthy for the environment.

Art
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Monoculture forests of trees in straight rows is not the same thing as a diversified ecologically healthy forest.
===============================

In what forest have you seen this? None around here.

There may be tree farms that have rows of trees, but they are not forests and many of them are not on land that was previously forest.

Jean
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Jean:"I wonder how you would feel if they moved to close all the ski resorts and access for your rafting?"

Yes,those ski areas cause massive pollution....all those cars and condos ..spewing out carbon...those monster developments....taking away from nature.... the run off....the pollution from all the fuel used to heat the houses.

Do away with them!...pronto.....plus of course, all the people who 'need' to live there to take care of the ski area with carbon spewing machinery.....and have to live there consuming vast quantities of carbon fuels to stay warm in very cold climates - likely in single family houses.

They're polluting the planet only to have a place to use hot tubs (more fossil fuels spewed out into the atmosphere - useless heating of water in frigid temps)....and for having a place to 'party' after a day of sitting around drinking hot toddies and similar.


----

As to rafting..again, thousands spew tons of Carbon fuels getting to and from there. All the rafts, canoes, kayaks scare the native fish.....all the folks dangling legs interfere with nature There are no 'rafts and kayaks' in nature. They throw out garbage, and leave a mess behind...all for what? floating on water in inner tubes of man made pieces of wood put together?


the only way people should 'enjoy' wilderness areas is to carefully backpack everything in themselves. And carry out all their garbage. Leave nothing but footprints. They can go as far in as they want.....but no fires.....that is not 'natural' to make fires and potentially cause forest fires. Maybe a small sterno based or propane stove......

if you want to be green....not a single car run on fossil fuel, not a single house/condo ski lift run on anything but 'green' energy, no roads and no snow plows in the 'back woods'......nothing but animal power and totally green power vehicles.....on trails - no road building allowed......


Give the libs what they want..then make them live by the rules.

oh, and no helicopters or 'special surveys' using cars by the greenies. They would all have to hoof it in themselves. No fly overs other than by planes at 30,000 plus feet. Can't scare the wildlife!.....


Let' s depopulate the rural west..then we'll start on NC, VA, and New England. Plenty there to shut down. ! Lots of ski areas, state parks, the Adirondaks, etc....


t.
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"In what forest have you seen this? None around here." - jean


There are mile after mile after mile of long leaf pine trees planted in Georgia. You can drive for miles and see nothing but straight rows of loblolly pine tree farms. U.S. 1 down in Southeast Georgia all the way to Jacksonville, Florida is nothing but mile after mile of pine trees planted in straight even rows.

Art
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east texas is all ......99%........the same couple types of tree....

t.
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There are mile after mile after mile of long leaf pine trees planted in Georgia. You can drive for miles and see nothing but straight rows of loblolly pine tree farms. U.S. 1 down in Southeast Georgia all the way to Jacksonville, Florida is nothing but mile after mile of pine trees planted in straight even rows.

Art

=======================================

Was it previously forest? Is it state or federal land? Why were the trees planted?

You can drive from here to Pasco (by Walla Walla by the way) and see miles of trees planted in rows. They were planted in the desert and watered with drip from the Snake river. They are basically fast growing trees for pulp. No one I know would even think that it was a forest.

Doing a really quick search the lobolly trees were planted on marginal farm land.

http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/446/446-604/446-604.html

I don't even pretend to know what is best for other areas.

I have a problem with drive-by decisions.
"When I drove to Seattle I saw a clear cut. It was horrible."

That kind of thing. Don't learn that the reason for the clear cut was that it had been taken over by a disease and they were trying to control it. Or an invasive species had taken over and they were removing it and planting the area with a variety of species.

Remember the spotted owl stuff didn't just close the federal/state lands it closed private lands too.

There were a couple of big fires here. The private land owners salvaged the timber and replanted within a couple of years. The Forest Service, because of protests delayed the salvage operation. They never did get all the salvage and haven't been able to do much replanting. We do work for the company that was contracted to do the salvage. It became impossible because of the protests....most of which came from east of the Mississippi.

And people wonder why rural areas tend to go Republican.

Jean
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east texas is all ......99%........the same couple types of tree....

t.

==========================================

http://texastreeid.tamu.edu/content/howToID/

In East Texas the most commonly found pine species are longleaf, slash, loblolly and shortleaf pine.

Can you tell the difference between these 4 types?

I have to get close to some of the trees to figure out what they are. I can guess and narrow it down from a drive by. DH is much better than I, but then his parents had a tree farm in northern CA. None of there trees were in straight lines.

Jean
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That kind of thing. Don't learn that the reason for the clear cut was that it had been taken over by a disease and they were trying to control it. Or an invasive species had taken over and they were removing it and planting the area with a variety of species.

Yeah...but those are the tiny, tiny minority of cases. The vast majority of clear cuts are because that's the cheapest way to get the timber. IIRC, most softwood are consumed by the construction industry, primarily as dimensional lumber. The rest is used for pulp.

And people wonder why rural areas tend to go Republican.

Most logging on public lands is subsidized by the federal government. Despite what you might have heard, Republicans are eager to funnel public dollars to private companies. So there is definite economic self-interest at play. Remember the Bridge to Nowhere? The purpose of the $400 million dollar bridge was to enable easy logging access from the pulp mills in Ketchican to Gravina Island. It only got derailed because it was such a blatant abuse of public money. That's just the tip of the iceberg. My solution is simple. Just end all the federal subsidies and most of these problems go away by themselves.

The price of lumber might go up, but not necessarily. For example, I mentioned a large portion of softwoods are used for dimensional lumber. However, most homes are framed improperly simply because that's how people have always done it, and lumber is cheap thanks to tax dollars driving down the price. Using advanced framing techniques reduces the amount of framing lumber by about a third, and the homes are much more energy efficient as well.


http://www.seattle.gov/housing/seagreen/TrainingMaterials/Fr...
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<<the only way people should 'enjoy' wilderness areas is to carefully backpack everything in themselves. And carry out all their garbage. Leave nothing but footprints. They can go as far in as they want.....but no fires.....that is not 'natural' to make fires and potentially cause forest fires. Maybe a small sterno based or propane stove......>>



Shut down the Appalachian and Pacific Crest Trails! They are nothing other than interstate highways.

Shut down the rest of trails into the back country and in National Parks too. Those who want a primitive experience should slog their way through jungle undergrowth and not through trails blasted through the wilderness, no different than highways.

I was recently at Cascade Pass in the North Cascades National Park. Archaeologists discovered that ancient man had built fires there 6000 or so years ago, but the National Park Service prohibited fires pretty much any place in the back country, including their own developed camp sites.

Loads of other restrictions too. Enforced by intrusive Park Service rangers who routinely demanded papers from backpackers even though no such papers were required unless someone was actually camping.

Thirty years ago National Park Service back country rules were relatively benign. Now they are obnoxious and intrusive --- even dangerous.

I expect an ever more active effort to exclude human beings from National Parks and wilderness areas, because human beings aren't "natural."



Seattle Pioneer
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<<"When I drove to Seattle I saw a clear cut. It was horrible." >>


Seattle IS a clear cut.



Seattle Pioneer
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I wonder how you would feel if they moved to close all the ski resorts and access for your rafting?

Damn a river and turn it into a lake it's not much good fro rafting

Most of my skiing these days is back country, on public lands, in wilderness areas.
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<Ki> But tens of thousands of family wage job were lost in the woods an mills, sacrificed on the environmental alter of the Spotted Owl

You know - I did a little research on those tens of thousands of lost jobs.

Many of the jobs in the Pacific Northwest could be saved simply by restricting the export of raw timber, a practice driven by the higher profits made through sales outside of the U.S. In 1988, nearly 4 billion board feet of raw logs were exported from Washington and Oregon. Had those logs been processed in the U.S., thousands of jobs could have been generated.

. As protests mounted in the region in the early 1990s, with dead owls tacked onto roadside signs and "owl fricassee" facetiously placed on the menus of cafes in timber country, some estimated that the Northwest Forest Plan could result in the loss of up to 125,000 direct and indirect jobs. The number is now thought to be considerably lower. One 1995 estimate by the Forest Service said that 400 jobs had been lost as a result of the logging restrictions.

Me thinks not such a big deal after all, exxept we actually preserved some old growth forests on public lands, which are owned by all, even east coats liberals.
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"east texas is all ......99%........the same couple types of tree." - tele


I bet it wasn't before human intervention. Even Native American Indians might have started fires and burned off brush and killed native trees so there is no guarantee that what Europeans saw when the first arrived was what was there originally.

I'm not just blaming Europeans because aboriginal peoples are guilty of changing ecosystems too. Humans can really do a number on an ecosystem, even worse than what Elephants do when they tearing up forests and trees. The reason Humans, even primitive humans, can interfere so severely in a natural ecosystem is because they can start and control fire.

I've read books about what Australia was like before the Aborigines got there and they burned large swaths of land in the interior of Australia and turned a lot of formerly savannah grass/scrub area into pure desert. They also killed off a lot of large Marsupials when they go there.

I'd like to see what North America was like before man entered the picture, especially places that are now big cities.

Art
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"I have a problem with drive-by decisions.
"When I drove to Seattle I saw a clear cut. It was horrible." - jean



I'm not real big on humans period. I'd rather see large swaths of land without any human intervention, all humans, not just Europeans.

As far as I'm concerned the Earth is horrendously overpopulated with humans. There are way too many of us. 250 million humans spread out among the various continents would be plenty in my estimation.

A lot of war and pestilence would be prevented if we weren't so damn successful.

Art
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A lot of war and pestilence would be prevented if we weren't so damn successful.


That's true. It remains to be seen how successful we will be. We have a long way to go to match Sharks. Of course, we will probably be the end of sharks so we can have some soup.
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<<. As protests mounted in the region in the early 1990s, with dead owls tacked onto roadside signs and "owl fricassee" facetiously placed on the menus of cafes in timber country, some estimated that the Northwest Forest Plan could result in the loss of up to 125,000 direct and indirect jobs. The number is now thought to be considerably lower. One 1995 estimate by the Forest Service said that 400 jobs had been lost as a result of the logging restrictions.>>



So who is your source for this estimate that the number of jobs lost was 1/3 of 1% of the predicted number of jobs lost?


Seattle Pioneer
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art:"I bet it wasn't before human intervention. Even Native American Indians might have started fires and burned off brush and killed native trees so there is no guarantee that what Europeans saw when the first arrived was what was there originally."

Dunno, but I doubt the Indians brought in invasive species like Kudzu.....

and more likely lightning sparked fires...like the big one down in south TX just last year or so...that burned tens of thousands of acres and a few hundred homes that were out in the 'woods'...


-------

art:"I'm not just blaming Europeans because aboriginal peoples are guilty of changing ecosystems too. Humans can really do a number on an ecosystem, even worse than what Elephants do when they tearing up forests and trees. The reason Humans, even primitive humans, can interfere so severely in a natural ecosystem is because they can start and control fire."

Most indians didn't...but they weren't the greenies the eco-loons envision as they were....they stripped the land and moved on...Nomads.....when the herds moved, they moved.....when the food ran out, they moved...

0-------



art:"I've read books about what Australia was like before the Aborigines got there and they burned large swaths of land in the interior of Australia and turned a lot of formerly savannah grass/scrub area into pure desert. They also killed off a lot of large Marsupials when they go there."


There's millions and millions and millions of kangaroos.....and the still have forest fires in Australia....it's a dry continent...!!! only certain parts are wet enough for farming. Most of the country is as dry as a bone...

Art:"I'd like to see what North America was like before man entered the picture, especially places that are now big cities."

Well, Washington DC was mostly a swamp....they filled it in. Same for much of Manhattan.....and you can go 100 miles north of NYC and be in 'wilderness'...and go 200 miles and be in the Adirondaks...where the only way in to most of it is backpacking, or canoeing. A million acres of wilderness.......

Those empty devoid cities probably looked like Union County TX where the people don't live...like 20 miles out in the boonies from the roads...



t.
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It looks like you are using two different sources.

The first one

http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v4n1/

Ethics and the Spotted Owl Controversy

I thought you said the spotted owl was just an excuse. Then you use a pro-spotted owl paper?

You do know that the spotted owl ruling didn't just impact Federal Land but private land too, right?

Jean
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"There's millions and millions and millions of kangaroos.....and the still have forest fires in Australia....it's a dry continent...!!! only certain parts are wet enough for farming. Most of the country is as dry as a bone." - tele


But Australia had mega Marsupials like mega Kangaroos and giant Wombats and gigantic birds but like 50,000 years ago the Aborigines moved in and they very quickly, like within a thousand years or so, killed off all the megafauna.

And the Interior of Australia used to be much wetter, enough to where the trees made their own weather by cooling the temperatures down enough to where it rained and stayed wet enough for small trees and other brush grew. But the Aborigines hunted game by driving it with fire and it destroyed the ecosystem enough to change the weather.

Art
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Art:""But Australia had mega Marsupials like mega Kangaroos and giant Wombats and gigantic birds but like 50,000 years ago the Aborigines moved in and they very quickly, like within a thousand years or so, killed off all the megafauna.

And the Interior of Australia used to be much wetter, enough to where the trees made their own weather by cooling the temperatures down enough to where it rained and stayed wet enough for small trees and other brush grew. But the Aborigines hunted game by driving it with fire and it destroyed the ecosystem enough to change the weather. "

---

Maybe..maybe not.....50,000 years ago......things were a lot different here...the glaciers of the last ice age 25,000 years ago moved down over NY state..a mile deep. same over MI and NY.....and that's how the Great Lakes were formed....they didn't exist before then......

SO you think the climate was the same with the northern third of North America under ice? Changing weather patterns? And that was only 18000 years ago.....

Yeah..I bet the climate changed worldwide when the whole world was in the 'ice age' less than 20,000 years ago.

The aboriginees probably did very litte....

Out in NV, as you drive along the desert on Rt 50, there are a few spots where the hills go up a few thousand feet above the terrain..that causes rain the fall - and you have trees and deer ...for maybe a few square miles......

the other 99% of NV is desert....along the route...


Nothing to do with Indians...just the way it is ...


t.
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