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This was mentioned in another thread, but I thought it deserved a topic of its own. What do people plan to do about healthcare and health insurance when you're retired? That's the thing I am not sure how to solve. We do plan to retire early, so will need to be providing our own health insurance as my employer has no retirement benefits whatsoever.

This is a big area of concern for me, and right now, I have a large amount allocated to that in my retirement budget, but I haven't even begun to start thinking about the logistics of this. For instance, how do I go about finding health insurance? Do I just call my current carrier and see if they do individual plans? What do people in retirement do for this if they're not covered by a retiree's plan from their former employer?

All of my normal retirement resources and experts have health insurance from their former employers, so there hasn't been someone I could easily ask.

Would this be a reasonable topic for this board?
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Would this be a reasonable topic for this board?

Not if we want to adhere to the no politics rule.

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Not if we want to adhere to the no politics rule.


OK, I didn't realize that was a political question. Forget I asked.

Should I have the post pulled so as not to drive the board down that path?
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Would this be a reasonable topic for this board?

I'd be very interested in hearing people's thoughts on this, especially since if things go as we hope we will still have a minor child to cover.
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However, someone who wrote a very interesting post about the future of health care in the U.S. especially with an ageing population was Loren Cobb. I might go try to find it and copy it or provide a link to it.

Really though when you start talking about 1) health care and how it affects your retirement plans and 2) global warming and how it affects your health plans I see nothing but grim times in the future. I don't know how you adequately prepare for grim.
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2gifts asks,

This is a big area of concern for me, and right now, I have a large amount allocated to that in my retirement budget, but I haven't even begun to start thinking about the logistics of this. For instance, how do I go about finding health insurance? Do I just call my current carrier and see if they do individual plans? What do people in retirement do for this if they're not covered by a retiree's plan from their former employer?


www.ehealthinsurance.com is a good place to start where you'll be able to get a quote on individual health insurance policies in your area. Unfortunately, some of the cheaper policies shown there will require you to have the excellent health of a candidate for astronaut training. If you have any preexisting conditions, the best thing to do is talk to an insurance agent who specializes in individual health insurance polices to see what's available.

Prices in the individual health insurance market vary wildly from state-to-state. I know that health insurance in Texas costs about double what one would pay for a similiar policy in Washington State.

intercst
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This was mentioned in another thread, but I thought it deserved a topic of its own. What do people plan to do about healthcare and health insurance when you're retired? That's the thing I am not sure how to solve. We do plan to retire early, so will need to be providing our own health insurance as my employer has no retirement benefits whatsoever.

This is a big area of concern for me, and right now, I have a large amount allocated to that in my retirement budget, but I haven't even begun to start thinking about the logistics of this. For instance, how do I go about finding health insurance? Do I just call my current carrier and see if they do individual plans? What do people in retirement do for this if they're not covered by a retiree's plan from their former employer?

All of my normal retirement resources and experts have health insurance from their former employers, so there hasn't been someone I could easily ask.

Would this be a reasonable topic for this board?


very good questions.

yes ...call current carrier; look on the interwebs; follow the leads from TV ads ...

if you're covered at work, COBRA might be a good bet... i know it applies if you're laid off, not sure about if you RE.

a friend of our just went through the process (sort of .he retired & lost company ins.; they got indiv. ins for her) .... sounded like a nightmare. Any pre-existing condition and most companies don't want you /the ones that do charge two legs and an arm.
..so might want to find out if your State does 'assigned risk'.

difficult stuff


=
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Thanks. I checked the link and they don't carry my area, so I can't get a current quote.

But what happens when we move? Do I have to change insurance carriers at that point? We're in MA today, but do plan to move to another state, or maybe live in both places depending on the season. What do retirees do for those situations?

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If you have any preexisting conditions, the best thing to do is talk to an insurance agent who specializes in individual health insurance polices to see what's available.


bears repeating.
.....and to some of these folkers, "pre-existing condition" means "saw a Dr in this life"



Prices in the individual health insurance market vary wildly from state-to-state. I know that health insurance in Texas costs about double what one would pay for a similiar policy in Washington State.


can vary that much within a state.

the Rules vary state-to-state ...
some policies can't be moved across state lines......


=
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2gifts asks,

Thanks. I checked the link and they don't carry my area, so I can't get a current quote.

But what happens when we move? Do I have to change insurance carriers at that point? We're in MA today, but do plan to move to another state, or maybe live in both places depending on the season. What do retirees do for those situations?


The individual health insurance market is regulated on a state-by-state basis, so you'll have to buy the policy in the state you claim as your residence. If you are going to spend a lot of time in another state, try to find a PPO or HMO policy with a nationwide network. (I'm assuming that few people can afford a "fee for service" policy that lets you see any doctor.)

Since you're in Massachusetts, what's happening with Mitt Romney's health care reform? Are you seeing any changes yet?

intercst
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The individual health insurance market is regulated on a state-by-state basis, so you'll have to buy the policy in the state you claim as your residence.



Hmmmmm.... I have insurance through my company as a retiree (in Alabama), but I now live in WA and I have the same insurance I had when I was in Alabama.

AM
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AngelMay writes,

The individual health insurance market is regulated on a state-by-state basis, so you'll have to buy the policy in the state you claim as your residence.

Hmmmmm.... I have insurance through my company as a retiree (in Alabama), but I now live in WA and I have the same insurance I had when I was in Alabama.

</snip>


If you have insurance from your employer it's a group plan covered by ERISA -- Federally regulated.

intercst
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Hmmmmm.... I have insurance through my company as a retiree (in Alabama), but I now live in WA and I have the same insurance I had when I was in Alabama.


i think you were a little bit lucky there ....

other companies wouldn't have let you transfer.

..... though ,since it's group ins., rules could be different.


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"If you have insurance from your employer it's a group plan covered by ERISA -- Federally regulated.

intercst"

I am not sure what you mean by that. I have a small personal injury law practice here in Virginia and at least as far as subrogation liens are concerned, ERISA only applies to certain self funded plans established by large employers who qualify under ERISA. For example, Anthem BC/BS here in Virginia provides coverage for numerous employers who are not covered by ERISA at least insofar as subrogation liens are concerned.
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I am not sure what you mean by that.


I'm not sure what he means, either.
I'm no longer employed. But the company allows their retirees to keep their insurance -- the same insurance they had before -- with the single exception that they no longer have a prescription card. Instead, we pay up front for our prescriptions and then file paperwork with the insurance company who then reimburses us 80% of the cost of the prescriptions.

Of course, we have to pay for the insurance.
But even when we get on Medicare we can still keep it as the supplemental and prescription insurance -- at about half the rate I'm currently paying.

It seems like a good deal to me.
I recently spoke with the insurance people at the company and they said that they knew of not a single retiree who had cancelled due to finding a better deal somewhere else.

However, some people have cancelled because their spouses are still working and they elected to be insured under his or her insurance. My spouse is still working, but I elected to keep the insurance I had.

So far, so good.

AM
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I am not sure what you mean by that.


I'm not sure what he means, either.



i *think* he means that group plans are federally regulated ... that's why you could move with no problem

individual plans are state regulated ... and maybe cant be easily moved.


whether right or not ....dunno.


=
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0x6a74 writes,

<<<I am not sure what you mean by that.


I'm not sure what he means, either.


i *think* he means that group plans are federally regulated ... that's why you could move with no problem

individual plans are state regulated ... and maybe cant be easily moved.>>


That's correct.

ERISA applies to group plans with 20 or more participants. I don't know how many employees AngelMay's former employer had on the payroll, but if she has cross-country portability in retirement it's likely covered by ERISA.

intercst
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But what happens when we move? Do I have to change insurance carriers at that point? We're in MA today, but do plan to move to another state, or maybe live in both places depending on the season. What do retirees do for those situations?

Have you looked at AARP ? If you'll be 50 at that point, they may have something to cover you. The other place to check is professional organizations.

PanemetCircuses(who is in his 30s) is putting a plan in place to cover himself and his family with a HSA - you may want to post on a board he reads.

rad
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"ERISA applies to group plans with 20 or more participants. I don't know how many employees AngelMay's former employer had on the payroll, but if she has cross-country portability in retirement it's likely covered by ERISA.

intercst"

I don't think that's completely true, intercst. ERISA applies to self-funded group plans. Many plans here in Virginia have way more than 20 employees but are not self - funded and not regulated by ERISA.

I don't feel like looking it up, but this was the very first blurb I saw on the topic:

"Main Points
The Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA) is a federal law that gives states the right to regulate insurance but exempts self-insured (or self-funded) health plans (any employee benefit plans) from state laws...."

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reallyalldone writes,

But what happens when we move? Do I have to change insurance carriers at that point? We're in MA today, but do plan to move to another state, or maybe live in both places depending on the season. What do retirees do for those situations?

Have you looked at AARP ? If you'll be 50 at that point, they may have something to cover you. The other place to check is professional organizations.


Be careful with insurance plans sponsored by professional organizations. Many are now being plagued with spiraling premium increases and cuts in benefits due to adverse selection (i.e., healthy people are going elsewhere, leaving the sickest members with no option to shop around.)

The once highly-regarded IEEE health plan that serves electrical engineers is but the latest example of this phenomenon.

http://www.todaysengineer.org/2006/Dec/plan-pt2.asp

intercst
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Health Savings Accounts (HSAs) will cease to exist

And I thought this little tax code yanker was supposed to take over the world and save everything. Too many sick people taking advantage of it I'll bet
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<<Health Savings Accounts (HSAs) will cease to exist

And I thought this little tax code yanker was supposed to take over the world and save everything. Too many sick people taking advantage of it I'll bet
>>



The pious intention to keep politics out of discussion boards evaporates so fast, don't you think?



Seattle Pioneer
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The pious intention to keep politics out of discussion boards evaporates so fast, don't you think?

You could add that to the fact that the quote clipped was used to then tack on misinformation. HSAs will not longer exist in the plan quoted from. I can't find anything that says they will be gone overall :
http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/public-affairs/hsa/

rad
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I am not the Board Police. That being said, I read the post of SP and pushed the ignore button instantly. I personally WILL NOT reply to trolls on this board - or posters with an IQ in the George W. Bush range.

OptimistJoel
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<<I am not the Board Police. That being said, I read the post of SP and pushed the ignore button instantly. I personally WILL NOT reply to trolls on this board - or posters with an IQ in the George W. Bush range.

OptimistJoel

>>


Yes sir, and thank you for another contemptuous reference to Republicans.

Once again the character of a "liberal" early retirement board is revealed for what it is.



More to come, I imagine.



Seattle Pioneer
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2gifts: What do people plan to do about healthcare and health insurance when you're retired? That's the thing I am not sure how to solve. We do plan to retire early, so will need to be providing our own health insurance as my employer has no retirement benefits whatsoever.

I can share my experience. When I retired, my company's (Boeing) insurance covered both me and my wife in accordance with the company's policy. Meaning insurance for both of us ended 30 days after separation. I am eligible for Medicare, so I went that route. My wife applied to Blue Cross and to HealthNet (Our insurer for 20 years). She applied for a high deductible ($2500 at HealthNet and $3500 at Blue Cross.) Both turned her down flat, because she had just had a D&C, which was negative. One of the physicians mentioned vaginal leukoplakia. It's not clear he has any clue what that is. She took the COBRA route so as to have insurance.

In due course, she reapplied to both. HeathNet turned her down again, because she is subject to migraines They couldn't cure her in twenty years, so they turned her down. The headaches are relatively controlled, but some prescription drugs are needed. Blue Cross accepted her, with a 25% surcharge because of the headaches. In neither case would her medication even come close to the large deductible. So she now has Blue Cross, with a $3500 deductible. This is disaster insurance. We hope she will never exceed the deductible. She won't be eligible for Medicare for years.

My suggestion: Apply for a high deductible policy. If you are FIRE'd, you can afford the deductible. It does hold the cost down.

But then again, you could just keep working until you're elegible for Medicare! 8^)

cliff
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The pious intention to keep politics out of discussion boards evaporates so fast, don't you think?

Seattle Pioneer


Compare the number of political posts on this board to the old board where you frequented so much, and I'm sure you'll find a distinct difference. There is one board that at least try to talk about the subject matter at hand, retirement. And there is your old board where 99% of the posting were about the greatness of Bush and his Iraq war.

Please don't ruin this board just like your kind ruined the other board.

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Please don't ruin this board just like your kind ruined the other board.

He can't do it by himself.

Part of the problem, I think, is that politics infuses pretty much every issue that we try to plan for: health care, housing costs, taxes, social security, climate change, energy costs. What our politicians do or do not do about these issues makes a difference to us. Differences of opinion will come up.

I don't know if it's possible to discuss differences of opinion without a flame war errupting. I'd say the first RE board has shown it's not. At some point "discussing the issues" seems to turn into "arguing about politics," which is an entirely different kind of converstion. But to the extent that exchanges here wander into areas of political policy, I think it'd be great if we could argue our points respectfully - even when (especially when) we disagree.

-lizmonster
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This petulent snarky finger-in the-eye comment was designed specifically to inject politics anyway. "Pious" indeed.

The pious intention to keep politics out of discussion boards evaporates so fast, don't you think?

Seattle Pioneer </b?
----------------------------
Compare the number of political posts on this board to the old board where you frequented so much, and I'm sure you'll find a distinct difference. There is one board that at least try to talk about the subject matter at hand, retirement. And there is your old board where 99% of the posting were about the greatness of Bush and his Iraq war.

Please don't ruin this board just like your kind ruined the other board.
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He can't do it by himself.

Part of the problem, I think, is that politics infuses pretty much every issue that we try to plan for: health care, housing costs, taxes, social security, climate change, energy costs. What our politicians do or do not do about these issues makes a difference to us. Differences of opinion will come up.

I don't know if it's possible to discuss differences of opinion without a flame war errupting. I'd say the first RE board has shown it's not. At some point "discussing the issues" seems to turn into "arguing about politics," which is an entirely different kind of converstion. But to the extent that exchanges here wander into areas of political policy, I think it'd be great if we could argue our points respectfully - even when (especially when) we disagree.

-lizmonster





Or, you could just p-box him.

AM
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Or, you could just p-box him.

Would be nice, but I think it's optimistic to think that everybody will (I know some folks don't like to use the p-box at all). And in fairness, I don't think one poster alone turned the old RE board into what it has become.

I'm as prone as anyone to the urge to post "What are you, an idiot?" sometimes. I guess I hope we all try not to do that here, and not get baited by those who do.

-lizmonster
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And in fairness, I don't think one poster alone turned the old RE board into what it has become.

No, there's at least a dozen, dozen and a half regulars there who did that.

While I personally don't have any intent to post about my politics here, I would not be surprised nor offended if politics do leak into the discussions. And I'll keep in mind that this board was opened as the Retire Early Liberal Edition. If politics do arise here, it's expected that the board not be a clone of That Other Board. Duh.

--FY
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<<While I personally don't have any intent to post about my politics here, I would not be surprised nor offended if politics do leak into the discussions. And I'll keep in mind that this board was opened as the Retire Early Liberal Edition. If politics do arise here, it's expected that the board not be a clone of That Other Board. Duh.

--FY
>>


So you expect it to be a clone of the Political Asylum Board?


Duh.



Seattle Pioneer
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Here is what we are doing, and applies to California. As has been mentioned, other states will be different.
I have found both blue Shield and Blue cross here have about the same plans and about the same rates... but rates vary alot from plan to plan. I went with Cobra for the first 18 months of my early retirement, and then switched to Blue shield. Since I take a cholesterol regulating drug (gemfibrozil) i was put in rate tier 3 for coverage. Since family coverage follows the highest risk person, it was cheaper to get my daughter her own coverage in Tier 1 than to add her to our policy. For rate comparison, her coverage is $109/month while ours was $1160/month. I recently went "plan shopping" based on the 20% rate hike this year and found a higher deductable /co-pay plan that is around $500/month for the two of us.

My agent sent me the entire rate sheet, and contains some numbers that might be interesting for planning purposes. The difference between tier 1 (lowest risk people) and tier 5 (highest risk people) is about 3X premium cost. The difference between a 50 year old and a 30 year old is about 2.5X assuming you stay in the same tier. Now, as we age we are more likely to have issues that will push us up into a higher risk tier, resulting in more expensive insurance. The same insurance for a 60 year old in tier 5 is 20 TIMES more expensive than a kid in tier 1.

As a planning number, my health insurance cost has gone up on average 9.5%/year for the past five years. This year, barring any significant health issues, it should be significantly lower due to the plan change.

A strategy I have heard used is self insurance. This works fine until something really BAD happens. If your state law allows seperate property for spouses, you can divide the nest egg in two. IF something really bad happens you WILL get the health care you need. Give them your half of the money and declare bankruptcy. Live off your spouses half for the remaining time. Personally, I really hate this strategy, but my rate table (for my new lower cost insurance) shows 60 year old in tier 5 has a premium of $2550, which is getting kind of painful.
--Alan
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A strategy I have heard used is self insurance. This works fine until something really BAD happens. If your state law allows seperate property for spouses, you can divide the nest egg in two. IF something really bad happens you WILL get the health care you need. Give them your half of the money and declare bankruptcy. Live off your spouses half for the remaining time. Personally, I really hate this strategy, but my rate table (for my new lower cost insurance) shows 60 year old in tier 5 has a premium of $2550, which is getting kind of painful.
--Alan

You might want to increase your deductible. My wife's $3500 deductible is less than $200 a month. We figure we are self-insured for minor stuff, but want Blue Cross behind us in case of serious illness.

cliff
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You might want to increase your deductible.
This is the highest deductable plan they offer at $2500/year/person.
It also requires a 30% copay on everything up to a maximum of $7500/year, but allows a lifetime benefit of up to $5M.
I show the rate for a single 50 year old in Tier 1 as about the $200 you mention. The $500 I will pay is for a couple.
So in the case of our hypothetical 60 year old in tier 5 paying $2550/month for insurance:
They pay the first $2500 on everything. On the next $17K of expenses they will pay another $5000, and after that, up to $5M they pay nothing. Anything over $5M, they pay:-)
Not to laugh, but I was talking to my insurance agent, and her daughter racked up $2M in medical bills due to a fall down the stairs:-(
--Alan
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alan81 writes,

A strategy I have heard used is self insurance. This works fine until something really BAD happens. If your state law allows seperate property for spouses, you can divide the nest egg in two. IF something really bad happens you WILL get the health care you need. Give them your half of the money and declare bankruptcy. Live off your spouses half for the remaining time. Personally, I really hate this strategy, but my rate table (for my new lower cost insurance) shows 60 year old in tier 5 has a premium of $2550, which is getting kind of painful.

$2550/month x 12 = $30,600/year plus co-pays and the policy's "maximum annual out-of-pocket expense" -- you could easily be paying $40,000 or $50,000 per year for healthcare.

Here's some info on the California Health Risk Pool for people that can't get insurance anyplace else. Check out the premium table on Page 18 -- it goes all the way up to $6,840 per month Yikes!

http://www.mrmib.ca.gov/MRMIB/MRMIPBRO.pdf

intercst
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Not to laugh, but I was talking to my insurance agent, and her daughter racked up $2M in medical bills due to a fall down the stairs:-(
--Alan

Yikes! Due mainly to the hospital stay, at a guess.

At least the first $1 million would be covered.

We need a better system, imo. We are willing (and able) to pay, but I wonder if we are being taken for a ride.

cliff
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Thanks for the link to the high risk pool. It looks like these plans can make sense for people who are older and in higher risk groups. For instance, if you can live with Kaiser (no pun intended:-) the high risk insurance for a 65 year old single is $732/month, while the blue shield policy I own for a 65 year old single in tier 5 would be $1306 ($2500 deductable).
It appears to me local governmental regulations and availability of health care may become a Major deciding factor in where we move once the kid is out of high school:-)
--Alan
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Yikes! Due mainly to the hospital stay, at a guess.
She hit her head, but felt fine. It turns out she broke some blood vessels in her brain, and had a stroke. This required several brain surgeries as well as extensive rehab. Luckily she had insurance with coverage to $5M so it was all covered.

We are willing (and able) to pay, but I wonder if we are being taken for a ride.
I am pretty sure with my old coverage costing me about $15K/year, I was on quite the ride. I was happy they were covering my cholesterol medicine, but later found out it is a whopping $36/month:-)
--Alan
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Not to laugh, but I was talking to my insurance agent, and her daughter racked up $2M in medical bills due to a fall down the stairs:-(
--Alan




We do desperately need a universal, single-payer healthcare system in this country. A healthy citizenry is good for the nation and we owe it to ourselves to do it. If we can afford to go halfway around the world to kill other peoples at a cost of billions, we can certainly afford to spend what it would take to provide healthcare to ourselves.

No one -- ever -- should find themselves in dire straits due to excessive healthcare bills. In fact, we should never see a bill at all. I wonder sometimes why we dislike ourselves so much that so many of us are against this. We provide a military. We provide highways. We provide schools (although this could use some improvement, for sure). Why won't we provide ourselves with healthcare?

Methinks that somewhere along the way someone got brainwashed and now the opposition just opposes for the sake of opposing. Just like it's so easy to be for a war when it's not YOU on the front lines, I guess it's easy to be against something when you have not greatly suffered because of it.

I believe one day we will finally wake up and make the right decision in this matter. We seem to be so far behind the rest of the world in so many areas these days. It's actually sad, I think, that we care so little for ourselves and for our neighbors. Maybe one day that will change.

I hope so.

AM
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AM:"No one -- ever -- should find themselves in dire straits due to excessive healthcare bills. In fact, we should never see a bill at all. I wonder sometimes why we dislike ourselves so much that so many of us are against this. We provide a military. We provide highways. We provide schools (although this could use some improvement, for sure). Why won't we provide ourselves with healthcare?"

IF no one ever sees a bill, the costs will never be contained....someone sprains an ankle, and insists on an MRI at $2000????? silly..but if they don't see a bill, or have any co-pay, there is absolutely no incentive to participate in your health care.

If there are no consequences to putting on an extra 100 or 200 lbs, or smoking 10 packs of cigs a day, because 'everything' will be done at 'no expense' to you, then folks won't worry, knowing that the gov't will spend millions, with 'heart transplants' and whatever else is neceesary to keep them alive, at no cost.

Sorry.....if folks don't bear some pain in their health care, it would be like giving away free auto insuracne, because 'some can't afford it'. Duh!....the roads would be full of carnage, no one would worry about accidents, since 'someone' would buy them a new car...

Same deal.

t.

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AM: "I believe one day we will finally wake up and make the right decision in this matter. We seem to be so far behind the rest of the world in so many areas these days."

My distant relative (my mother' cousin) complained bitterly in every letter every couple months about how BAD the Swedish 'free' health care was. Every time he had a 'doctor appointment' he would have to go through the 'specialist' who took his complaint. He would see 'whoever doctor was on call' that day. The doc had no real interest in following his progress...just scanned the chart, put him on this medicine, that medicine, never a follow up.......this went on for 15 years.

My best friend died in England waiting for a procedure. Sure, it was 'free' but there was a six month waiting list for it. He had bypass surgury in the USA at age 62. He was now 80 and had further blockages....don't worry, they said...we'll get to you in 'order'..... that was the last straw..he died 2 months before the operation from a massive heart attack.. His wife had to wait 10 months for an operation, that turned out to be about 10 months too late, and she died of a cancer that probably could have been stopped if done earlier. When they got to her, it was 10 months further along, but there was no money in the budget for 'tests' to see how far it had progressed...that was a 6 month wait for that procedure.


Oh, but it was 'free'...all they had to pay was something like $30/month to be insured by the 'comprehensive' health care plan.....

Be careful what you ask for.

Canada has long long waiting times for most operations that get scheduled in days here.

Oh, but it is free.....so what if you die in six months while waiting for your operation?

t.


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IF no one ever sees a bill, the costs will never be contained....someone sprains an ankle, and insists on an MRI at $2000????? silly..but if they don't see a bill, or have any co-pay, there is absolutely no incentive to participate in your health care.



Not at all. It doesn't have to be that way at all.
The patient doesn't get to "insist" -- why does that always come up.
We are talking about a healthcare system -- not a donnybrook.

And to say that there is no incentive to participate in your own healthcare is just wrong thinking. The incentive to participate in your own healthcare is so that you will feel good and be healthy -- I can think of no better reason.


If there are no consequences to putting on an extra 100 or 200 lbs, or smoking 10 packs of cigs a day, because 'everything' will be done at 'no expense' to you, then folks won't worry, knowing that the gov't will spend millions, with 'heart transplants' and whatever else is neceesary to keep them alive, at no cost.

Sorry.....if folks don't bear some pain in their health care, it would be like giving away free auto insuracne, because 'some can't afford it'. Duh!....the roads would be full of carnage, no one would worry about accidents, since 'someone' would buy them a new car...

Same deal.

t.



Surely you can't mean what you just wrote.
I can't think of anyone -- no matter how ill educated -- who would not worry about accidents even though someone would buy them a new car. That's just ridiculous on the face of it. Accidents can harm more than your car. They can take your life. Only a fool would not worry about them.

I think you may be one of those I mentioned who have been brainwashed against universal healthcare. That's unfortunate because you are making it out to be something it doesn't have to be. There are ways to do it such that it would be successful.

Yes, some people will be obese. Some people will kill themselves smoking. But just maybe there would be fewer of those people when they realize they have a chance in life to be healthy and a chance to live without fear of illness sending them to the poorhouse.

There are ways to do it.
And we do owe it to ourselves.
Why not take care of ourselves first?

AM

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My best friend died in England waiting for a procedure. Sure, it was 'free' but there was a six month waiting list for it. He had bypass surgury in the USA at age 62. He was now 80 and had further blockages....don't worry, they said...we'll get to you in 'order'..... that was the last straw..he died 2 months before the operation from a massive heart attack.. His wife had to wait 10 months for an operation, that turned out to be about 10 months too late, and she died of a cancer that probably could have been stopped if done earlier. When they got to her, it was 10 months further along, but there was no money in the budget for 'tests' to see how far it had progressed...that was a 6 month wait for that procedure.


Oh, but it was 'free'...all they had to pay was something like $30/month to be insured by the 'comprehensive' health care plan.....

Be careful what you ask for.

Canada has long long waiting times for most operations that get scheduled in days here.

Oh, but it is free.....so what if you die in six months while waiting for your operation?

t.




I know people in Canada, England, and Germany who are quite happy with their healthcare system. You mention only bad things. Why is that? And why do you assume that our system would have to be exactly like theirs? Why the negativism before we've even given it a fair try?

AM
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I know people in Canada, England, and Germany who are quite happy with their healthcare system. You mention only bad things. Why is that? And why do you assume that our system would have to be exactly like theirs? Why the negativism before we've even given it a fair try?

AM

Heh. Some people always see the glass as half empty. Others see it as half full.

cliff
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Heh. Some people always see the glass as half empty. Others see it as half full.


& i think it doesn't much matter since the water probably spit in it.


(>



.. and the glass is chipped.
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IF no one ever sees a bill, the costs will never be contained....someone sprains an ankle, and insists on an MRI at $2000????? silly..but if they don't see a bill, or have any co-pay, there is absolutely no incentive to participate in your health care.



Not at all. It doesn't have to be that way at all.
The patient doesn't get to "insist" -- why does that always come up.


some would abuse the system.
some do now. (they run to the Dr for no reason and whine till Doc writes Rx for whatever drug is being advertized on the TV)

some will abuse ANY system.

it's like the WelfareQueen™ .. they probably exist. Probably very few... but they make for a great excuse.


And to say that there is no incentive to participate in your own healthcare is just wrong thinking. The incentive to participate in your own healthcare is so that you will feel good and be healthy -- I can think of no better reason.


apparently some people think only of money. Health, happiness, whatever --no motivational force.


*i* don't think the problem is in the 'costs' .... it's in the priorities.
we don't need a Free system ... we need a system that gives everyone relatively equal access.

that places more importance on people's health than business profits.


=
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<<A strategy I have heard used is self insurance. This works fine until something really BAD happens. If your state law allows seperate property for spouses, you can divide the nest egg in two. IF something really bad happens you WILL get the health care you need. Give them your half of the money and declare bankruptcy. Live off your spouses half for the remaining time. Personally, I really hate this strategy, but my rate table (for my new lower cost insurance) shows 60 year old in tier 5 has a premium of $2550, which is getting kind of painful.
--Alan
>>


I think you are engaging in wishful thinking when you imagine that a "self Insured" person will get the treatment he needs without paying for it. Doctors, hospitals and other health care providers are very likely to want to make payment arrangements before treating you, and many will refuse you treatment unless you make satisfactory payment arrnagements, which might well include payment in advance of treatment.


If you can't afford to pay for insurance, keep working. Retirement is a luxury as long as you are physically able to work. Getting health insurance is one of the best reasons to get up and go to work, in my view.

Also, you can look around for states that provide better options. Washington State, for example, allows anyone whose COBRA coverage is expiring to sign up for any health insurance plan offered in their area regardless of preexisting conditions. Once in a plan, everyone pays the same rate in the published rate schedule, although rates for older people are higher. You also can't be kicked out of a plan if you get sick.

We had at least one family (Wendy BG) on the Early Retirement Board who moved to Washington State to take advantage of that state law. Other states have other options under HIPA, the Health Insurance Portability Act. Shop around for a congenial state if you are inclined to move or want find your state's rules burdensome.



Seattle Pioneer
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<<We do desperately need a universal, single-payer healthcare system in this country. A healthy citizenry is good for the nation and we owe it to ourselves to do it. If we can afford to go halfway around the world to kill other peoples at a cost of billions, we can certainly afford to spend what it would take to provide healthcare to ourselves.
>>


Of course that is not true. Weren't you one of the people objecting to politics on the Early Retirement Board?

Here you are making a purely political post.


And were the patient described under a single payer system, whatever causes you to think the government would pay for $2million in health care rather than simply letting someone do without several expensive surgeries and then send them home when they have stabilized?

Our present system is what paid the $2 million for the person in question and was prepared to spend $4 million.

I was watching a television program on the homeless which said that the average homeless person received $150,000 over an 18 month period, mostly in hospital emergency rooms because of numerous health and lifestyle issues. That's the single payer system we have right now ---how do you like it?



Seattle Pioneer
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Seattle Pioneer writes,

We had at least one family (Wendy BG) on the Early Retirement Board who moved to Washington State to take advantage of that state law. Other states have other options under HIPA, the Health Insurance Portability Act. Shop around for a congenial state if you are inclined to move or want find your state's rules burdensome.


Wouldn't it make more sense to have a nationwide system where people can live and work where they want instead of moving from state-to-state with these shell games to secure health insurance coverage? A nationwice system like Medicare or the Veterans Adminisatration health program would also eliminate the 20% to 30% overhead (vs. 2% in Medicare) that private insurers add to the national health care bill.

intercst
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<<I think you may be one of those I mentioned who have been brainwashed against universal healthcare. That's unfortunate because you are making it out to be something it doesn't have to be. There are ways to do it such that it would be successful.
>>


Now, now, Angel May. That sounds like very intolerent name calling for a liberal early retirement board. Perhaps you should take this to the political asylum board?


I think this thread illustrates just how politics, health care and early retirement are intertwined. Trying to keep politics out is futile, and calling people names because you disagree with someone's political views is going to be a fact of life on this board just as it is on the other Early Retirement board.



Seattle Pioneer
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<<
Wouldn't it make more sense to have a nationwide system where people can live and work where they want instead of moving from state-to-state with these shell games to secure health insurance coverage? A nationwice system like Medicare or the Veterans Adminisatration health program would also eliminate the 20% to 30% overhead (vs. 2% in Medicare) that private insurers add to the national health care bill.
>>


We have a nationwide system like that right now --- you get all the care the government specifies merely by walking in to any hospital emergency room. Not happy with that? That's the nationwide system we've had for twenty years. For plenty of people it's "free" care too, since they will never pay for the services they receive.

Somehow though people seem unsatisfied with this government healthcare system.



Seattle Pioneer
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SeattlePioneer writes,

<<
Wouldn't it make more sense to have a nationwide system where people can live and work where they want instead of moving from state-to-state with these shell games to secure health insurance coverage? A nationwice system like Medicare or the Veterans Adminisatration health program would also eliminate the 20% to 30% overhead (vs. 2% in Medicare) that private insurers add to the national health care bill.
>>


We have a nationwide system like that right now --- you get all the care the government specifies merely by walking in to any hospital emergency room. Not happy with that? That's the nationwide system we've had for twenty years. For plenty of people it's "free" care too, since they will never pay for the services they receive.

</snip>


That's only for "emergency care" and hospitals don't have to cure you -- just stabilize you enough to be sent elsewhere.

intercst

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We have a nationwide system like that right now --- you get all the care the government specifies merely by walking in to any hospital emergency room. Not happy with that? That's the nationwide system we've had for twenty years. For plenty of people it's "free" care too, since they will never pay for the services they receive.

Somehow though people seem unsatisfied with this government healthcare system.

Seattle Pioneer

I believe it is more or less true that the indigent can get "free" treatment at an emergency room. It isn't free, of course. We taxpayers pay for it. You seem to cheerfully accept this, while (appareently) advocating against a single payer insurance plan. Isn't that a wee bit inconsistent? Wouldn't it make more sense to have a universal health insurance plan like (say) Germany? The Brits have socialized medicine, which appears to work reasonably well, if sometimes not. Brits can also get private insurance if they want. Same with Austria. I am told they get better service than with the government insurance. Fine, but the poor and middle class do get some health care.

The fact is that we in the US have millions of people who either can't afford insurance, or can't get it. My wife came close to being one of the latter. We can afford to pay for reasonable insurance, and we wound up getting a $3500 deductible plan. We were glad to get it. In our system, the insurance companies get to (maybe have to) cherry pick who they will insure. They are not eleemosynary institutions, after all. They don't want to insure someone who is sick, do they?

Our present system denys a large group of people insurence. Those with no money at all can get treatment at the emergency rooms. Those with insurance can get treatment. Those with lots of money can get treatment. The rest are just stuck. A serious illness will wipe them out. Is this really what you advocate? You compare our system to the Canadian or the British. I see all of Western Europe, Japan, Australia, and other first-world countries somehow providing for some form of health care for their citizens, rich, poor, and middle calss. That should be our goal, not the way we treat insurance here.

I would appreciate your description of what you think might be a saner system for the US.

The floor is yours.

cliff
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<<
We have a nationwide system like that right now --- you get all the care the government specifies merely by walking in to any hospital emergency room. Not happy with that? That's the nationwide system we've had for twenty years. For plenty of people it's "free" care too, since they will never pay for the services they receive.

</snip>

That's only for "emergency care" and hospitals don't have to cure you -- just stabilize you enough to be sent elsewhere.

intercst
>>


It's a government mandated health care system that applies nationwide. Those who oppose such systems usually point out that government usually limits how much health care is provided and is quite willing to neglect such people to death.

The emergency room health care system we have now is just such a system. And I imagine that emergency room care "cures" plenty of people who receive it, but not everyone. No different except in degree than the single payer system you wish for.



Seattle Pioneer
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<<I believe it is more or less true that the indigent can get "free" treatment at an emergency room. It isn't free, of course. We taxpayers pay for it. You seem to cheerfully accept this, while (appareently) advocating against a single payer insurance plan. Isn't that a wee bit inconsistent? >>


I would cheerfully dump the Federal system of emergency room health care mandates if I had my wishes. But it does amount to a Federal system of health care for all, just what the left wants in principle.

STILL they are unhappy!




Seattle Pioneer
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That's only for "emergency care" and hospitals don't have to cure you -- just stabilize you enough to be sent elsewhere.


as Cliff says, not free since the rest subsidize those who don't/can't/won't pay.

and it's more expensive care (ER need especially trained staff and special equipment) ... a different sort of extreme overhead.

and with ER system overloaded, some are getting worse care
(been there;done that .... no ins. so i waited till Very Sick and then trundled down to ER. Wait and Wait ..in a room full of sick people. Probably world record collection of every strain of flu, cold and respiratory infection.
..next time, i go at 3am... not so many sick people, but real emergencies who have priority
)


=
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First, decide what your position is... here you say:
I think you are engaging in wishful thinking when you imagine that a "self Insured" person will get the treatment he needs without paying for it.
Then in a later post you say:
We have a nationwide system like that right now --- you get all the care the government specifies merely by walking in to any hospital emergency room.
I guess there could be a difference between "care you want", and "care the government specifies"... but even with insurance you get the "care your insurance specifies"... Beggars can not really be choosers, and when it comes to needing millions of dollars worth of care most of us become beggars:-)

I think you are one of the few people I have read who would be willing to let people sit on the steps of an ER and die. You are certainly entitled to that position, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the rest of us to agree with it.
--Alan
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SP: I would cheerfully dump the Federal system of emergency room health care mandates if I had my wishes. But it does amount to a Federal system of health care for all, just what the left wants in principle.

STILL they are unhappy!

Do you know the definition of disingenuous?

You are (as usual) wrong. We do not have a system of health care for all. We have health care for the poor, the insured, and the rich. This has aleready been mentioned (http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=25129848), and you choose to ignore it. There are millions who want insurance, but are unable to get it. It is a fact. Do you deny it?

To repeat, I would appreciate your description of what you think might be a saner system for the US.

The floor is yours.

cliff
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"You might want to increase your deductible. My wife's $3500 deductible is less than $200 a month. We figure we are self-insured for minor stuff, but want Blue Cross behind us in case of serious illness.

cliff"

Bingo. The way to think about insurance is as protection against catastrophic occurrences. I have a high deductible and low premiums on my health insurance policy and my car insurance. I handle minor doctor's visits and fender benders myself, keep my premiums down, but have coverage in the event of more serious calamities.

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{{Or, you could just p-box him.}}


Isn't liberal logic wonderful? Liberals seem to believe that the best way to have an informative board is p-boxing people who are very knowledgeable about retiring early simply because they are conservatives and thus evil.


c
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{{I can't think of anyone -- no matter how ill educated -- who would not worry about accidents even though someone would buy them a new car. That's just ridiculous on the face of it. Accidents can harm more than your car. They can take your life. Only a fool would not worry about them.}}


This is an irrational statement. I am extermely careful driving and parking because I do not want to accidentally ding someone or get a speeding ticket because I do nto want my rates for insurance to go up. If I knew that my actions would have no affect on me or the person I harmed while driving, I would be far less careful.



c
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A strategy I have heard used is self insurance. This works fine until something really BAD happens. If your state law allows seperate property for spouses, you can divide the nest egg in two. IF something really bad happens you WILL get the health care you need. Give them your half of the money and declare bankruptcy. Live off your spouses half for the remaining time. Personally, I really hate this strategy, but my rate table (for my new lower cost insurance) shows 60 year old in tier 5 has a premium of $2550, which is getting kind of painful.
--Alan


California is a community property state (as are many of the states formerly part of Mexico) so I don't think that works for you.

Vickifool
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Heh. Some people always see the glass as half empty. Others see it as half full.

cliff


I'm an engineer. I see the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

Vickifool -- VickiSpouse and I used to argue about this very thing in the beginning. I wanted smaller glasses.
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I'm an engineer. I see the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

That's Dick Cheney's viewpoint as well. He's a half glass full kind of guy.

http://websrvr80il.audiovideoweb.com/il80web20037/ThinkProgress/2007/halffull.mp4

- Gus
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and with ER system overloaded, some are getting worse care
(been there;done that .... no ins. so i waited till Very Sick and then trundled down to ER. Wait and Wait ..in a room full of sick people. Probably world record collection of every strain of flu, cold and respiratory infection.
..next time, i go at 3am... not so many sick people, but real emergencies who have priority
)


=


There appears to be some law that children who've been injured MUST be seen in an emergency room so that they can be screened for child abuse.

I HATE waiting in the emergency room. I've got kids: kids have accidents. Last time I did mom-ly first aid. And then I called and made a "follow-up" appointment with the regular doctor. I'm perfectly willing to leave the emergency room for real emergencies.

Vickifool -- saving my health insurance company money whenever it's appropriate.
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I'm an engineer. I see the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

That's Dick Cheney's viewpoint as well. He's a half glass full kind of guy.

http://websrvr80il.audiovideoweb.com/il80web20037/ThinkProgress/2007/halffull.mp4

- Gus

:-p~~~~~

Vickifool
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"{{I can't think of anyone -- no matter how ill educated -- who would not worry about accidents even though someone would buy them a new car. That's just ridiculous on the face of it. Accidents can harm more than your car. They can take your life. Only a fool would not worry about them.}}


c-man:"This is an irrational statement. I am extermely careful driving and parking because I do not want to accidentally ding someone or get a speeding ticket because I do nto want my rates for insurance to go up. If I knew that my actions would have no affect on me or the person I harmed while driving, I would be far less careful. "

Abssolutely agree...if folks knew that someone would fix their dings....hey, why worry? If you went out in icy conditions, and slid off the road, not to worry! Your car would get fixed for free, you'd get a nice rental while it was being fixed.....before 'free insurance' you'd never go out in an ice storm, but heck, why worry?????/

Bad roads and potholes? Not to worry...if you hit one at 50mph, 'someone will fix it free'.....no need to swerve to avoid them....or slow down....any damanged fixed for 'free'.....

Let some 18 year old drive your car? not to worry...he crashes it, not to worry.....even if he crashed 10 other cars in the past 2 years.....

"Free" is an invitation to disaster.......it is an abuse like the Tragedy of the Commons.........

Same for medical care. If people don't bear SOME part of the cost, they run to the doctor for a splinter, or a cold, or every ailment. Some percentage will really abuse the system...just need somone to talk to, or want some drugs to feel good, not depressed...and do nothing on their own to solve the problems....

And, AM, you really think that you would be willing to accept being 'sent home' to die when the doc figured you didn't need that $150,000 operation.... oh, but you'd have all the pain killer you needed......

Canada is rationing more and more and more 'prociedues'.....has 1/10th the number of MRI and CAT scan machines as in the USA...you wait weeks or months just to get one..... they only do so many a day, and that is it.....you get in line.....

And you might get a cheapie drug that really doesn't fix your problem, but heck, you can't go on the 'new more expensive one' till we find out the poor one, which doesn't work half the time, isn't working, and you are sicker and sicker...... but that is Canadian and BRitish medicine at work for you...

Great if you are 'reasonably' healthy.....the problems come when you suddenly wind up with something unexpected........

If you look at the US welfare systemm, it is a joke.....entire generations scamming the system....welfare babies having more and more, just to collect more and more benefits, with no concern they ever have to work or pay for everything....it is 'aid for this, aid for children, free breakfast lunches at school, subsidized or free housing, food stamps, free 'medicaid' health care for the kiddies, free this and that.....(of course the taxpayers are paying big time for it).....

I know half a dozen on 'welfare'.....ate too much, gained 200 lbs or more...knees shot at age 50....'cant work anymore'.....sit at home, watch TV and collect 'disability'.....like another million or two who are perfectly able to work at something, but took advantage of ths system..... too many who were temporarilty disabled, got benefits, and forgot to tell the gov't they are now fine....retired at 50 or 45 on 'disability'...for something that they recovered from years ago...

t.









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There appears to be some law that children who've been injured MUST be seen in an emergency room so that they can be screened for child abuse.

Hi Vickifool, do you have a link for this? If true, it'd have to spell out pretty strictly what the conditions of the injury would have to be for this requirement.

-lizmonster
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Yes sir, and thank you for another contemptuous reference to Republicans.

Once again the character of a "liberal" early retirement board is revealed for what it is.



More to come, I imagine.


How sad...I was excited to hear that a board was being opened where people who don't believe all women are sluts and whores who deserve to be run over can come to learn about strategies for saving and investing with a goal of retiring before age 65...but here I see that SeattlePioneer just can't resist taking a giant dump all over it.

This SUCKS.

What makes people act like such complete tools?

SP, YOU ALREADY HAVE A REHP BOARD WHERE EVERYONE THINKS LIKE YOU. GO THERE.

6
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First, decide what your position is... here you say:
I think you are engaging in wishful thinking when you imagine that a "self Insured" person will get the treatment he needs without paying for it.
Then in a later post you say:
We have a nationwide system like that right now --- you get all the care the government specifies merely by walking in to any hospital emergency room.
I guess there could be a difference between "care you want", and "care the government specifies"...


Ya see, Their reasoning is based on gimmicks like this. Their positions would collapse if they couldnt keep moving the goal posts on the fly.
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Or, you could just p-box him.

Anyone that polarizing presents a host of rec-gathering opportunities.

6
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SP, YOU ALREADY HAVE A REHP BOARD WHERE EVERYONE THINKS LIKE YOU. GO THERE.

I figured it was pretty much inevitable that a few in the RECF (the new name works since it's really "Retire Early Conservative Fools") crowd would need to come over here to troll. If they didn't have that kind of personality, there wouldn't be any need for this board. The atmosphere there is poisonous because it's a home for posters who aren't merely conservative - which would be fine - but hate liberals with a passion.

It's the same as the fundies who occasionally troll Atheist Fools. You can't really keep them out, but at least you know you have support. You also can take comfort in the idea that these guys have lives that are so small that they can't stand the idea of liberals interested in RE have a board of their own.

- Gus
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<<SP: I would cheerfully dump the Federal system of emergency room health care mandates if I had my wishes. But it does amount to a Federal system of health care for all, just what the left wants in principle.

STILL they are unhappy!

Do you know the definition of disingenuous?

You are (as usual) wrong. We do not have a system of health care for all. We have health care for the poor, the insured, and the rich. This has already been mentioned (http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=25129848), and you choose to ignore it. There are millions who want insurance, but are unable to get it. It is a fact. Do you deny it?
>>


Of course I do, because you are denying the facts as they exist.

Indeed, health care is no where more democratic than at the door of an emergency room. The poor will get care ahead of the rich if they are in real distress.


We already have a national system of health care, at the emergency room door. As single payer health care sceptics here have already pointed out repeatedly, any government health care system is going to ration care and place limits on what people get. That is well illustrated by the emergency room health care system.

But leftists don't want to admit the facts as they exist.



Seattle Pioneer

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Of course that is not true. Weren't you one of the people objecting to politics on the Early Retirement Board?

Here you are making a purely political post.


And were the patient described under a single payer system, whatever causes you to think the government would pay for $2million in health care rather than simply letting someone do without several expensive surgeries and then send them home when they have stabilized?

Our present system is what paid the $2 million for the person in question and was prepared to spend $4 million.

I was watching a television program on the homeless which said that the average homeless person received $150,000 over an 18 month period, mostly in hospital emergency rooms because of numerous health and lifestyle issues. That's the single payer system we have right now ---how do you like it?



Seattle Pioneer





As usual, you are wrong in so many ways it's impossible to address them all.

Why are you here?

AM
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If there are no consequences to <getting old or having bad accidents>, because 'everything' will be done at 'no expense' to you, then folks won't worry, knowing that the gov't will spend millions, with 'heart transplants' and whatever else is neceesary to keep them alive, at no cost.

6
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Now, now, Angel May. That sounds like very intolerent name calling for a liberal early retirement board. Perhaps you should take this to the political asylum board?


I think this thread illustrates just how politics, health care and early retirement are intertwined. Trying to keep politics out is futile, and calling people names because you disagree with someone's political views is going to be a fact of life on this board just as it is on the other Early Retirement board.



Seattle Pioneer



Well, I would say that it's definitely going to be harder with you here. Aren't you happy causing trouble on the other Retirement board? Do you have to destroy this one as well?

There are many good reasons for having universal healthcare -- and no one really brought politics into it directly until you showed up, I think.

Finally, I've met you before, and frankly I don't really care what you think about much of anything. Your superior attitude sucks the big one and most people know you for what you are. It would be really nice if you would just go away. But since you won't, I would like to request that you just stop talking to me. Do you think you have the will power to do that?

AM
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But since you won't, I would like to request that you just stop talking to me. Do you think you have the will power to do that?

You can't control anyone's actions but your own.
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I would cheerfully dump the Federal system of emergency room health care mandates if I had my wishes. But it does amount to a Federal system of health care for all, just what the left wants in principle.




AHA! "The left"!!!
Who is bringing politics into this now?

Looks like this is quicking turning into the All-SeattlePioneer-All-The-Time Board.

What a shame.

AM
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The atmosphere there is poisonous because it's a home for posters who aren't merely conservative - which would be fine - but hate liberals with a passion.

and it's not just "Liberals". It's anybody they disagree with. Those who are not "like us" as defined BY us. Sort of like issuing a signing statement.
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Isn't liberal logic wonderful? Liberals seem to believe that the best way to have an informative board is p-boxing people who are very knowledgeable about retiring early simply because they are conservatives and thus evil.

OCD: simply because they share hatred and narrow-mindedness instead of knowledge.

6
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<<
It's the same as the fundies who occasionally troll Atheist Fools. You can't really keep them out, but at least you know you have support. You also can take comfort in the idea that these guys have lives that are so small that they can't stand the idea of liberals interested in RE have a board of their own.

- Gus
>>


You simply have to be able and willing to defend your ideas from mistake and error.

I subject my ideas to close scrutiny every day and don't complain about it when I get it. I'm surprised my liberal friends think they need a refuge from having their ideas taken seriously and examined closely for merit.



Seattle Pioneer

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"You might want to increase your deductible. My wife's $3500 deductible is less than $200 a month. We figure we are self-insured for minor stuff, but want Blue Cross behind us in case of serious illness.

cliff"

Bingo. The way to think about insurance is as protection against catastrophic occurrences. I have a high deductible and low premiums on my health insurance policy and my car insurance. I handle minor doctor's visits and fender benders myself, keep my premiums down, but have coverage in the event of more serious calamities.



Joel, that works for people with enough money to pick up the tab until insurance kicks in. But it doesn't work very well for the poor. And even for those of us with money, the monthly premiums are quite a big bite.

I just think there is a better way.

AM
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{{I can't think of anyone -- no matter how ill educated -- who would not worry about accidents even though someone would buy them a new car. That's just ridiculous on the face of it. Accidents can harm more than your car. They can take your life. Only a fool would not worry about them.}}


This is an irrational statement. I am extermely careful driving and parking because I do not want to accidentally ding someone or get a speeding ticket because I do nto want my rates for insurance to go up. If I knew that my actions would have no affect on me or the person I harmed while driving, I would be far less careful.




LOL!
Well, that tells us a lot about your own character -- but I'm not sure that can be applied to the majority of people.

AM
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<<The atmosphere there is poisonous because it's a home for posters who aren't merely conservative - which would be fine - but hate liberals with a passion.

and it's not just "Liberals". It's anybody they disagree with. Those who are not "like us" as defined BY us. Sort of like issuing a signing statement.
>>


Here we have the pots calling the kettles black.

It's amusing to see the diversity among the efforts to exclude opinions some people don't like in this thread.




Seattle Pioneer

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How sad...I was excited to hear that a board was being opened where people who don't believe all women are sluts and whores who deserve to be run over can come to learn about strategies for saving and investing with a goal of retiring before age 65...but here I see that SeattlePioneer just can't resist taking a giant dump all over it.

This SUCKS.

What makes people act like such complete tools?

SP, YOU ALREADY HAVE A REHP BOARD WHERE EVERYONE THINKS LIKE YOU. GO THERE.

6




Nice to see you here, 6.
Please stay.

AM
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The emergency room health care system we have now is just such a system. And I imagine that emergency room care "cures" plenty of people who receive it, but not everyone. No different except in degree than the single payer system you wish for.

Emergency room care is by far the most expensive form of medical care.
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..next time, i go (to emergency room)at 3am... not so many sick people, but real emergencies who have priority.

Try not to go Early Sunday morning. Too many Saturday night drunks, car wrecks, and knife fight victime cluttering up the E-Room.

Ted - (My Mom was an ER nurse)
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I figured it was pretty much inevitable that a few in the RECF (the new name works since it's really "Retire Early Conservative Fools") crowd would need to come over here to troll. If they didn't have that kind of personality, there wouldn't be any need for this board. The atmosphere there is poisonous because it's a home for posters who aren't merely conservative - which would be fine - but hate liberals with a passion.

It's the same as the fundies who occasionally troll Atheist Fools. You can't really keep them out, but at least you know you have support. You also can take comfort in the idea that these guys have lives that are so small that they can't stand the idea of liberals interested in RE have a board of their own.

- Gus



But it's really great, Gus, that you added the LIBERAL name to the board. At least we know who belongs and who are the troublemakers.
It's a good name. You done good. :o)

AM
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AM: Well, I would say that it's definitely going to be harder with you here. Aren't you happy causing trouble on the other Retirement board? Do you have to destroy this one as well?

AM, If you can't disengage from Seattle P. then I'm going to pbox you also.
Ted
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AM, If you can't disengage from Seattle P. then I'm going to pbox you also.
Ted




Well, do what you have to do.

AM
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Well, do what you have to do.

AM


Done. Im doing this because you are adding fuel to the fire to keep this hate fest going. Unfortunately it means I won't be able to read your posts on the other boards either. I'm sorry about that.
Ted
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There is universal health care

THere is 'free' whatever

Somehow, I don't think 'free' universal health care will work any better than 'free' universal auto insurance.

You need to control costs and risks.

When things are 'free' there is unlimited demand. Free food? everyone will line up to get it.... Free money? everyone will line up to get it....

If people don't take some RESPONSIBILITY and share in the cost, even if only a co-pay, they won't use things responsibly.

Withness the fate of the car companies and unions. Gold plated health care plans, no co pays, free drgu prescriptions.....and it is bankrupting the US automakers. You pay $1500 for each single car produced to pay for the healthcare benefits of the workers and RETIRED workers who pay essentially nothing for all the healthcare they can demand. It isn't free....the consumer is paying big time, and soon all the workers will find they aren't going to have anything anymore when these companies go into bankruptch. And the gov't isn't going to bail out the health plans..it will be staggering under the pension plans which it guarantees.

Food is not provided 'free'. Not unless you are in prison or instutitionalized, or in a medicare nursning home with zero assets.

Housing is not provided 'free'...often it is subsidized, but almost never is 'free' unless you are institutionalized.

I see no reason why healthcare should be provided to most 'free'.

If you don't have food, you die.

If you don't have housing, you'll likely die.....folks help out the homeless FOR A WHILE...we expect them to become productive citizens again.....

Why is it the neo-Libs think that there will be money for 'free' everything, or that the 'rich' can be soaked enough to subsidize half the population of the country? That never seems to work well.

t.
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Why is it the neo-Libs think that there will be money for 'free' everything, or that the 'rich' can be soaked enough to subsidize half the population of the country? That never seems to work well.



There is no such thing as a "neo-Lib". Please don't attribute the wrong-headedness of conservatives to liberals.

As usual, you don't understand a thing. Why is that?
No one has said anything will be "free" except for you "conservatives" who intentionally try to obfuscate the truth of the matter.

Highways are not "free". They are paid for by everyone who pays taxes.
The Military is not "free". It is paid for by everyone who pays taxes.
Healthcare would be no different.

Why can you accept the military - but not healthcare?
Why do you hate America? (Heh -- just couldn't resist that last)

AM
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I was excited to hear that a board was being opened where people who don't believe all women are sluts and whores who deserve to be run over can come to learn about strategies for saving and investing with a goal of retiring before age 65

SP, YOU ALREADY HAVE A REHP BOARD WHERE EVERYONE THINKS LIKE YOU.
---------------------------
What in the world are you talking about? I've been on the board formerly know as REHP for 7 years, and I've never been treated like a slut. I am not a conservative nor do I identify with any political party, and I am treated well.

Everyone on the board does not think like SP. They are not clones. I personally disagree with SP about a lot of things.

I though GusSmed hoping for a board that calmly discussed retirement issues. Doesn't look like he's getting it.

arrete - surprised at the vitriolic response

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It's the same as the fundies who occasionally troll Atheist Fools. You can't really keep them out, but at least you know you have support. You also can take comfort in the idea that these guys have lives that are so small that they can't stand the idea of liberals interested in RE have a board of their own.

I don't even consider myself a liberal, but these folks are so hateful and inflammatory that it's impossible not to take the opposing viewpoint to everything they say, because you think, "well if <insert foaming rightwinger's name here> believes that, it must necessarily be wrong and/or evil".

And I know that when they say, "liberal", they're referring to me even though again, I'm not very liberal. They just don't posess the flexibility of mind to recognize different worldviews...it's either exactly the same as theirs, i.e. "correct", or else it's not exactly the same, i.e. "liberal".

6
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I though GusSmed hoping for a board that calmly discussed retirement issues. Doesn't look like he's getting it.

I'm enough of a realist to realize that we'd have periods like this. Almost every board gets its share of trolls, even ones you wouldn't think would offend anyone.

My hope was to create a board where it was OK to both be interested in early retirement and liberal. Some folks are going to come here to sneer at us merely for being liberal. Some regulars are going to take offense at that. There's no real stopping that, but my hope is that the board won't be about that exclusively, or turn into a pure politics board like PA or Liberal Fools.

surprised at the vitriolic response

I'm not. I tried to explain this over on RECF and didn't get much traction. Actually, it would have been surprising if I had, because it would have been evidence that there was indeed a liberal faction remaining there.

Whatever you may feel about politics personally, there is a contingent of very loud posters there who hate, hate, hate everything about "liberals" and the "left." Maybe not everyone at RECF thinks that way, but enough do to color public perception of the board. There are people here who are bitter about that, because they're very interested in early retirement, but find RECF's board culture poisonous.

So now that RELE exists, they've come here, but they're still pretty angry about RECF. I don't want this board to be about anger toward RECF, but it's bound to come out when a RECF regular comes here and starts yelling at us merely for being liberal.

- Gus
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What is RECF?
What happened to REHP -- did it change its name?

AM
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{{There is no such thing as a "neo-Lib".}}


Sure there is. A neo liberal is nothing like a classical liberal.


c
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Isn't liberal logic wonderful? Liberals seem to believe that the best way to have an informative board is p-boxing people who are very knowledgeable about retiring early simply because they are conservatives and thus evil.
c

-----

No, just the rude & obnoxious ones. It's a pretty good trade-off.

g'bye
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What happened to REHP -- did it change its name?

Yeah. Intercst threw up his hands and asked them to change it to "Retire Early - Political / Social." The dwellers didn't like that, and got it changed to "Retire Early CampFIRE" (RECF).

- Gus
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Liberals seem to believe that the best way to have an informative board is p-boxing people who are very knowledgeable about retiring early simply because they are conservatives and thus evil.

No, just the rude & obnoxious ones. It's a pretty good trade-off.


Yeah, we're going to be stuck with the knowledgeable liberal guys. Like, oh, Intercst.

- Gus
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c-man:"This is an irrational statement. I am extermely careful driving and parking because I do not want to accidentally ding someone or get a speeding ticket because I do nto want my rates for insurance to go up. If I knew that my actions would have no affect on me or the person I harmed while driving, I would be far less careful. "

Abssolutely agree...

-----

Keeripes! I don't know about you all, but I work for my stuff. Insurance or no, I'm not going to be careless with things like that. I was raised to take care of stuff. It's called being responsible, and it extends to maintaining a healthy life as well.

Maybe it's just me, but that's one of the stupidest arguments I've ever heard.

For everyone else's sake, I hope those who drive carefully only because they pay insurance premiums continue to have to pay insurance premiums.




Rich
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Keeripes! I don't know about you all, but I work for my stuff. Insurance or no, I'm not going to be careless with things like that. I was raised to take care of stuff. It's called being responsible, and it extends to maintaining a healthy life as well.,

Also, for people who have "emotions", we tend to not wish to cause harm to other people or their property because it would make us "feel" bad inside.

6
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But leftists don't want to admit the facts as they exist.
-----

I wonder what being a southpaw has to do with any of this?
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Emergency room care is by far the most expensive form of medical care.
-----

$50 just to sign in and wait.

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Try not to go Early Sunday morning. Too many Saturday night drunks, car wrecks, and knife fight victime cluttering up the E-Room.

Ted - (My Mom was an ER nurse)

-----

Vouch.






Rich
-frequent Saturday nite ER patient in my 'other life'.

:-\
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Looks like SP is determined to be to this board as monte is to AF.

I think he'll get bored. SP doesn't troll on Liberal Fools, does he? It takes someone really, really special to continue to look silly for years without continuing support from like minded posters.

- Gus
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Looks like SP is determined to be to this board as monte is to AF.

In the interest of not being the troll-feeder that I left AF because of, I am using my p-box so that I can avoid engaging the trolls here.

6
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The atmosphere there is poisonous because it's a home for posters who aren't merely conservative - which would be fine - but hate liberals with a passion.

You mean something like this?

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=25116195
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AM seems to forget what she posts...

first: "
No one -- ever -- should find themselves in dire straits due to excessive healthcare bills. In fact, we should never see a bill at all."

Good..if no one sees a bill, they have no idea what helath care is costing them.

later:

"No one has said anything will be "free" except for you "conservatives" who intentionally try to obfuscate the truth of the matter.

Highways are not "free". They are paid for by everyone who pays taxes.
The Military is not "free". It is paid for by everyone who pays taxes.
Healthcare would be no different."

Great.......now, I really have a problem with this.....we don't pay monthly fees for 'free highways' and we don't pay monthly fees for 'military protection' and we don't pay monthly fees for fire and police protection....but tax payers do.....

In NYC and some other places, they don't even have water meters....there is so much waste and extra cost, it is a joke. For years, folks ran a/c systems....used water for cooling, once , then dumped it down the drain - 10,000 gallons a day, but heck, it was free......and similar abuses......

Anything 'free' gets abused. And roads aren't free..you pay road tax in every gallon of fuel you buy. You pay for it in state and local taxes. (and with debt piling up at the state and local level for those roads to the tune of trillions of bucks)....

You want health care to be 'borrowed' against the future? like roads and water reservoirs and schools? Issue bonds to pay for current hosptial costs????

AM pays for her insurance now....gets 80% back on prescriptions.....

Without ever seeing a bill, people would have ZERO incentive to try anything less than 'the absolute most' diagnostic procedures to eliminate every possibilty, and no 'gate keeper' is going to be able to stop the demand for services - unless you want to degrade quickly to the Canadian model with 6 month wait for CAT scans and MRI scans.....and 12 -18 months for bypass surgery.

t.


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Rich
-frequent Saturday nite ER patient in my 'other life'.

:-\



one of the many benefits of reintarnation (>:


-j
....couple years ago i had an actual semi-emergency sat-night/sun-morn ... actually thinking as i drove to the ER : "o poo-poo. drunks and accident victims and gunshots .... ER's going to be busy." but it wasn't. Probably because it's up in the 'nice' burbs, far from any 'urban'
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GusSmed

figured it was pretty much inevitable that a few in the RECF (the new name works since it's really "Retire Early Conservative Fools") crowd would need to come over here to troll. If they didn't have that kind of personality, there wouldn't be any need for this board. The atmosphere there is poisonous because it's a home for posters who aren't merely conservative - which would be fine - but hate liberals with a passion.

It's the same as the fundies who occasionally troll Atheist Fools. You can't really keep them out, but at least you know you have support. You also can take comfort in the idea that these guys have lives that are so small that they can't stand the idea of liberals interested in RE have a board of their own.

- Gus


I hope you or the other posters do not mind if I occasionally post/read your board.

Although a regular from REHP, my primary interest for being there has always been to develope FIRE strategies and I especially enjoy talking to "new" people about them.

My intension for being here will not to be disruptive. In fact, I vow to ignore political discussions. Although I am not a proponent of a Univeral Health Care system, I would be considered "liberal" by some people on the REHP board on some issues. For example, I'm a vegan and I am in congressman Ron Paul's camp of opposition to going in to Iraq in the 1st place.

decath
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I hope you or the other posters do not mind if I occasionally post/read your board.

You're definitely welcome here.

I would be considered "liberal" by some people on the REHP board on some issues. For example, I'm a vegan and I am in congressman Ron Paul's camp of opposition to going in to Iraq in the 1st place.

I think you can be conservative and think that Iraq was a bad idea.

- Gus
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-j
....couple years ago i had an actual semi-emergency sat-night/sun-morn ... actually thinking as i drove to the ER : "o poo-poo. drunks and accident victims and gunshots .... ER's going to be busy." but it wasn't. Probably because it's up in the 'nice' burbs, far from any 'urban'

-----

Yer prolly right, cause amongst the clouds of what's left of my memory I seem to recall the crowded ER's to be populated with leather, tattoos, mohawk haircuts, piercings of all sorts, & lots of noise - loud arguments, cops berating drunks, doctors yelling at patients ('Get the hell out of here!' [.true.story!]), kids wailing...
Took my stepson to the ER recently. It was a new modern hospital in an area with golfcourses and country clubs nearby. Wasn't crowded at all.




Rich
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Figures! My 1st post over here and I booger up the HTML tags. To make matters worse, I'm a software developer that has created hundreds of web pages from the code level and still messed it up! ;)

I'll repost for clarity.

2gifts:

OK, I didn't realize that was a political question. Forget I asked.

Should I have the post pulled so as not to drive the board down that path?


You don't have to get political when discussing health care. Regardless of what the gov't does now and in the future regarding health care, ER people would be wise to adjust and adapt to whatever changes are made.

As far as I'm concerned, my number one goal and objective to reduce health care expenses is to live a clean healthy lifestyle with plenty of nutritious food, the avoidance of harmful food, the right amount of sleep, a generous amount amount of exercise, fresh air, pure water, sunshine and the continued pursuit to relieve myself of stressful situations (quitting work and RE'ing will be a huge step in that direction ;) )

You do that and you'll elimate the vast majority of possible health/disease problems. Even in old age.

I expect to FIRE in roughly 8 years when I'm 53. Assuming health care is in the same condition as it is (that is, inflationary growth at about twice that of everything else) my plan is to have a catastrophic health care plan for me and my wife with a high deductable of around 5-10k per year. I will maintain a separate investment fund to self insure for all the small stuff and to satisfy any deductable. Hopefully, that fund can be wrapped around an MSA. But that is 8 years away so who knows if they will be available or in what form.

intercst had an excellent suggestion over on the REHP board several years ago about investing the "self-insure" account in health care stocks. I have since bought one health care related stock and will add to that position, as well as others, as I approach FIRE.

If you still have kids at FIRE time or some very expensive health care problems, that approach may not work.

Tis a very good reason for a FIRE wannabee to piously guard his/her health (with the approach I mentioned in the 2nd paragraph) as they approach that magical FIRE date.

decath
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Keeripes! I don't know about you all, but I work for my stuff. Insurance or no, I'm not going to be careless with things like that. I was raised to take care of stuff. It's called being responsible, and it extends to maintaining a healthy life as well.


See your answer is real-world/ book of life stuff. Read what you were resposnding to again. He already rigged the the game. If everything he does has no consequences, he wouldnt have to worry about doing them. If I could eat all the hotdgs I wanted and not worry about gaining weight or raising my cholesterol I wouldn't worry about eating hotdogs.

That is not an argument... I dont know what it is but I'm sure there is a name for it. It's like the "sound of one hand clapping" or "if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear it does it make a sound" kind of stuff. Cut-rate, half-assed, 3:15pm on a Friday afternoon philosophy class stuff.
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Cut-rate, half-assed, 3:15pm on a Friday afternoon philosophy class stuff.
-----

And it's only Monday!
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There appears to be some law that children who've been injured MUST be seen in an emergency room so that they can be screened for child abuse.


Liz,
If you knew me, you'd be able to tell from the way I posted that this is based on my own personal experience. If I'd had a link, I would have posted it. I do that. Usually I even tinyurl it if I think it's long enough to break and also post that.

But if you find the link, go ahead and post it.

Vickifool
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As single payer health care sceptics here have already pointed out repeatedly, any government health care system is going to ration care and place limits on what people get sp

Just as insurance companies, and the general wealth distribution/maldistribution, ("free market" sans Adam Smith) )do now. Instead of decrying ways to ration why championing other ways to ration, why shouldn't a great and wise and wealthy people find a way to allow everybody to acquire what they need? It's called Progress. It's what we do.
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When things are 'free' there is unlimited demand. Free food? everyone will line up to get it.... Free money? everyone will line up to get it....


We have "free" air. I haven't really noticed anyone taking more than his fair share.

We have "free" sunshine. Same.

We have "free" hot air--and plenty of volunteers to replenish the supply!

Vickifool
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When things are 'free' there is unlimited demand. Free food? everyone will line up to get it.... Free money? everyone will line up to get it....


Free money? The OP doesn't even get why that's not a very clever example.

6
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How sad...I was excited to hear that a board was being opened where people who don't believe all women are sluts and whores who deserve to be run over can come to learn about strategies for saving and investing with a goal of retiring before age 65...but here I see that SeattlePioneer just can't resist taking a giant dump all over it.

This SUCKS.

What makes people act like such complete tools?

SP, YOU ALREADY HAVE A REHP BOARD WHERE EVERYONE THINKS LIKE YOU. GO THERE.


Who are these folks who can only be happy posting on a public bulletin board when they can control the viewpoints of all participants? And, what are their LIVES like?

Montecfo
(thinks retirement factrs are far more important than poilitical views)
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You can't control anyone's actions but your own.

Even that is in question, that is why lefties want to give condoms to kids.

(couldn't resist)
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If you knew me, you'd be able to tell from the way I posted that this is based on my own personal experience.

I wasn't trying to be snippy, and I apologize if I misread your tone. It's just that what you posted is contrary to what I've experienced so far as a parent (granted, my daughter is only 2-1/2). If she's injured at school I have to sign a form saying I've been informed of the incident, but that's it. They have my authorization to take her to an ER if it's medically necessary, but that hasn't happened as yet (knock wood). I'd assume, though, that laws varied by location.

-lizmonster
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Rich
-frequent Saturday nite ER patient in my 'other life'.


I'm glad you outgrew that.

Vickifool
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-j
....couple years ago i had an actual semi-emergency sat-night/sun-morn ... actually thinking as i drove to the ER : "o poo-poo. drunks and accident victims and gunshots .... ER's going to be busy." but it wasn't. Probably because it's up in the 'nice' burbs, far from any 'urban'


Where I live, you really want to go the county hospital for accidents and gunshots if you can. They get A LOT of practice and are very good at it.

Of course, I haven't checked to see if my regular hospital gets overflow...

Vickifool
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My intension for being here will not to be disruptive. In fact, I vow to ignore political discussions. Although I am not a proponent of a Univeral Health Care system, I would be considered "liberal" by some people on the REHP board on some issues. For example, I'm a vegan and I am in congressman Ron Paul's camp of opposition to going in to Iraq in the 1st place.

decath


The problem with boxes is that they seldom fit well.

Welcome to this board, decath!

VIckifool
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....couple years ago i had an actual semi-emergency sat-night/sun-morn ... actually thinking as i drove to the ER : "o poo-poo. drunks and accident victims and gunshots .... ER's going to be busy." but it wasn't. Probably because it's up in the 'nice' burbs, far from any 'urban'


Where I live, you really want to go the county hospital for accidents and gunshots if you can. They get A LOT of practice and are very good at it.


yup. my cousin interned at such a hospital ....said he got so good at fixing gunshots and knife-wounds he considered it as a specialty ....

> since i didn't have a gunshot, was glad to see relatively empty (if less experienced) ER <g>



Of course, I haven't checked to see if my regular hospital gets overflow...



i wonder if that could work ..... ambulance serious but not too-serious cases to other hospital? tell the less serious to get there on their own?


=
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<<The atmosphere there is poisonous because it's a home for posters who aren't merely conservative - which would be fine - but hate liberals with a passion.

You mean something like this?

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=25116195
>>


Heh, heh! It's easy to go over the top when you aren't dealing with people face to face, and I'm sure I have a weakness for doing that as well.

But I will resolve to try to avoid doing that on this board in the future.

Frankly, on the scale of political differences that exist in this world, the American conservatives and liberals are about as close to each other as two adjacent fingers on the same hand. That still leaves plenty of room for spirited debate, but we really should be able to avoid hating each other, and being hateful to each other.


So I'll aim to be less provocative to my liberal friends here, and try to avoid letting others provoke me to making rash comments in kind.


Perhaps it's worth noting that I was a fervent liberal until 1984, when I went over to the dark side because of the appeal of Ronald Reagan. I was a Democratic Precinct Committeeeman for many years and served as an officer in my district Democratic Party for several years, as well as a voter registrar. I was also a Business Agent and Organizer for the Service Employees Union and a strike organizer for the Amalgamated Clothing Workers for a while. So I can claim to have a certain understanding of liberal politics and political organizations.



Seattle Pioneer
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Sorry, I meant more "When you get to know me better..." You were clearly asking for more information, not being snippy. I didn't have it to give. Normally, I'd look it up for you just to see if I could find it but I'm a little under the weather today.

I've enjoyed your posts on other boards, but this is the first time you've come to a board where I post much.

My kids are bigger now (the youngest starts driving next month) but when my HMO made me take them to the emergency room, there was a lot of local concern about child abuse. I don't know if it has really abated, or if it's only a big deal at the elementary-school level, or if it was just my HMO's policy at that time.


Vickifool
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<<I expect to FIRE in roughly 8 years when I'm 53. Assuming health care is in the same condition as it is (that is, inflationary growth at about twice that of everything else) my plan is to have a catastrophic health care plan for me and my wife with a high deductable of around 5-10k per year.>>


With high deductible policies do you get the benefit of the discounts health insurance companies negotiate with health care providers? If so, that would be a big plus to having a high deductible policy.


While the high deductible policy route would probably have been the economical choice for me, I've had pretty comprehensive health insurance coverage since I quit paid employment in 1999 at age 49. At present that costs me $599/month for myself alone. I suppose I'm spending extra money for a security blanket.



Seattle Pioneer
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<<Just as insurance companies, and the general wealth distribution/maldistribution, ("free market" sans Adam Smith) )do now. Instead of decrying ways to ration why championing other ways to ration, why shouldn't a great and wise and wealthy people find a way to allow everybody to acquire what they need? It's called Progress. It's what we do.
>>


Lots of people aren't interested in buying the things they need. They prefer to spend their money on things they don't need. Why should I stand in their way? If people want to self insure, they are welcome to do so.




Seattle Pioneer
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You simply have to be able and willing to defend your ideas from mistake and error.

I subject my ideas to close scrutiny every day and don't complain about it when I get it. I'm surprised my liberal friends think they need a refuge from having their ideas taken seriously and examined closely for merit.


That's the way it was a couple years ago and I enjoyed the REHP immensely. I thought there was a good exchange of ideas on both sides that I felt I benefited from. I read and posted every day for four or five years.

Over the last while, the character changed. Ideas aren't taken seriously. Opposing viewpoints are shouted down by people who come a place to launch personal attacks from the safety of the keyboards. There is no meaningful discussion.

That doesn't bother me, I got over being bothered by stooges on the internet in about 1998. But it is not interesting or useful to me either. I gradually started reading REHP less and less and finally unmarked from my favorites. I don't miss it.

This place may be better, or it may not. I would like occasionally to read a thoughtul response to post from time to time though.

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<<I subject my ideas to close scrutiny every day and don't complain about it when I get it. I'm surprised my liberal friends think they need a refuge from having their ideas taken seriously and examined closely for merit.

That's the way it was a couple years ago and I enjoyed the REHP immensely. I thought there was a good exchange of ideas on both sides that I felt I benefited from. I read and posted every day for four or five years.

Over the last while, the character changed. Ideas aren't taken seriously. Opposing viewpoints are shouted down by people who come a place to launch personal attacks from the safety of the keyboards. There is no meaningful discussion.
>>


Yes, it's too easy to shout down people you disagree with, when the smart thing to do is to treat someone you can talk with about issues like a prince.

I think the real cause for that was the decision by the Fool to start charging for access to the boards. Before that there was always a significant number of new Early Retirement wannabes eager to discuss the early retirement issues, and that kept refocussing the board on the main issue of the board.

When the number of those new people declined, the board became more social since we had already discussed early retirement issues many times. Politics became a frequent source of conversation, and a number of people, I among them, became pretty good at cutting up left wingers who entered those conversations. Too good, I'm afraid.

I don't think the intent was to drive people away, but that was the effect.


Needless to say, this board may wind up making the same mistake.




Seattle Pioneer
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I don't think the intent was to drive people away, but that was the effect.


Needless to say, this board may wind up making the same mistake.




Seattle Pioneer



Not if people will pay attention to the name on the door and show respect for the intent of the creator of the board. This board is not for conservatives. It is for liberals. The intent is clear. This doesn't mean that conservatives can't post here -- it just means that they are not the people the board was created for. It would be really nice if they would remember that. Especially since there are other boards where they are clearly represented.

AM
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Rich
-frequent Saturday nite ER patient in my 'other life'.


I'm glad you outgrew that.
Vickifool

-----

Thanks.


Heh, I still get that a lot from family & friends.

Even after 16 years!






Rich
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SP
With high deductible policies do you get the benefit of the discounts health insurance companies negotiate with health care providers? If so, that would be a big plus to having a high deductible policy.

I really don't know what to expect. About 5 years ago, I spent some time researching health care plans for people who live extra-ordinary healthy lifestyles. I did not find much.

I found one health insurance plan for vegans and it was fairly close to the current plan my employer provided at that time. But with the dizzying pace of change (for the worse) in the health care/insurance, who knows what things will look like when I FIRE in 8 years.

I have my options open. My hope is that employer and gov't provided health insurance will become a dinosaur. I personally believe that could instigate a revolution in the health care industry as people would be hitting the market in the millions, thus driving down insurance prices as well as offering different plans for different people according to their lifestyles.

If that were to happen, then people with healthy lifestyles like my wife and I, will not be paying for the expenses of those who chose not to live that way.

If not, I may decide to go ahead and work a few more years to build up a larger nest egg so I can afford a more comprehensive health insurance plan like yours. However, then my FIRE date starts to push me into the mid/upper 50's. Something I want to avoid. You can only do so much with a SAHW and 3 kids. 53 is what I'm shooting for and I'll have to decide what I want to do at that time depending on insurance rates, the health of DW, my investment results and how much I'm enjoying my job at that time.

decath
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{{We have "free" air. I haven't really noticed anyone taking more than his fair share.}}

I disagree with this statement. CO2 pollution can be thought of as some people using more than their fair share of free air.


c
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I went to my opthamologist yesterday. Cost me (directly) a $7 co-pay. The upshot of the visit is that we are planning for a cataract operation in a few weeks. My cost will be zero, I think (hope). If I have to pay for it, it still needs to be done.

Who paid for this? Why, you did. You who pay your medicare tax. Actually, I pay a token amount every month (I believe it's $89 or so.) It seems to me that medicare is a Good Deal for me at this time. The gummit is not directly involved. I use HealthNet as my insurance company. The gummit subsidizes my insurance. I believe this is similar to the situation in Germany. There is a combination of traditional health insurance, with some government involvement.

It seems to me that medicare would be a good template on which to build a universal health insurance plan in the US. We could do away with the silly medicare tax, and just use the general fund (which is what is actually happening in any case) to fund the program. Tack the medicare tax onto the regular tax in each bracket. This would seem fair to me. Fairer than the current program, even. I (and SP) would now may more nearly our share, through our income taxes. Now we pay nothing because we don't have salaried jobs. (OK, SP pays self-employment tax.)

This approach is simple, and uses an existing, working administration, and would not be the (horrid, socialistic) medicine plan SP and other conservatives seem to fear. The insurance companies would still make their billions, but they would be prevented from refusing to insure anyone. And we could scrap medicare at the same time. Let the insurance companies negotiate care costs with the providers, including the drug companies. Keep the government out of this part of it. Let people select the insurance company and style of insurance they want or need. The insurance companies will have to accept all comers, without regard to pre-existing conditions, and they will get a flat rate for all. For some they will make out like bandits. For others they will lose money.

I would charge everyone for the use of this system, through the tax system, plus a small monthly amount, collected through withholding. There would also be a small co-pay, but this is not an essential aspect, a small disincentive to abusing the system and going to the doctor for every headache. I would let the insurance companies manage this, with a legislated cap on the co-pay.

I hope others will comment on my idea. I like it very much, as our present situation is grossly unfair.

Please comment. Am I FOS? Suggest improvements, or whatever.

cliff
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on the surface, something like Medicare nationalized sounds good...
but i don't understand it well enough to say for sure.
( how much of mdicare is govt and how much pvt; what are the real costs?)

This approach is simple, and uses an existing, working administration, and would not be the (horrid, socialistic) medicine plan SP and other conservatives seem to fear. The insurance companies would still make their billions, but they would be prevented from refusing to insure anyone

no ...it would be Horrid Socialistic because the govt is involved & insurance companies would make far fewer Billions.

not that i have a better plan.

the current system works great for those in power ... a practical solution for any 'problems' will have to make things even better for them.


=
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The atmosphere there is poisonous because it's a home for posters who aren't merely conservative - which would be fine - but hate liberals with a passion.

You mean something like this?


Actually what you just did by linking to another board on a totally unrelated topic for the express purpose of smearing a poster, attacking them personnally in effect and attempting to pollute the board is a better example.

The board is new...let the posts put up on the board define the people as they interact here and let the past die for the most part.

The most important part of forgive and forget is the forget part which many people seem unable to do.

Just my view of how to poison a potentially good board.

md
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Actually what you just did by linking to another board on a totally unrelated topic for the express purpose of smearing a poster, attacking them personnally in effect and attempting to pollute the board is a better example.

I did no such thing; I linked to a post on this board only a few days earlier. If anyone did any smearing, it was in the post that I linked to.

The board is new...let the posts put up on the board define the people as they interact here and let the past die for the most part.

The most important part of forgive and forget is the forget part which many people seem unable to do.


This is correct, and it was exactly what the post I linked to did - it brought up history from another board!
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I did no such thing; I linked to a post on this board only a few days earlier. If anyone did any smearing, it was in the post that I linked to.

Sorry...missed that it was this board...still doesn't change my viewpoint.

Why keep adding fuel to the fire and poking chanting "neener, neener".

md

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