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Author: InvestorGrrl Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 9085  
Subject: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/12/2002 5:13 PM
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I'm trying to think of some "suffering" I could do.
My current idea, which furthers some goals I have, is to sell up to one third of my books and compact discs, putting half to a designated registered charity of my choice (probably something helping poor, indigent women and children), and half to a designated registered charity of the buyer's choice, and then taking half the value of the purchase from my bank stash into my baby's college fund. I can declutter, give to charities and to my baby beyond my maternal duties.
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Author: mglf Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 475 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/12/2002 6:28 PM
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"I'm trying to think of some "suffering" I could do."

Instead of "suffering", I try to do some self-improvement that I can carry on beyond lent. I'm looking this year to work towards being less slothful and more disciplined.



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Author: jeanpaulsartre Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 476 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/12/2002 6:39 PM
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Once every three years, and this is one such year, we get this particular cycle of Lenten readings known as the Scrutinies. The first is story of the Woman at the Well, the second is the man blind from birth who is healed, and the third is the story of Lazarus.

The Lenten readings that constitute the Scrutinies invite us to scrutinize ourselves. We don't need to do it at the beginning of Lent as much as we need to do it over the entire Lenten period. Of course, this is what we can achieve by "giving something up"--examining our relationship to it--but if we merely give it up and don't give it another thought other than how much nuisance it is, it's not self scrutiny.

The woman at the well starts the story in a state of sin and ends up with grace. The man born blind starts out blind and of course can see. And Lazarus starts the story dead and comes to light.

Sin to grace, blindness to sight, death to life. What is there in our lives that is sinful? Where is our blindness? In what areas are we--dead? Our self-examination can continue well past Shrove Tuesday, and it needn't end today, indeed, it is encouraged that it continue through all of Lent. These things can be tough on one. But their end result is as sudden and dramatic a flowering as a tulip from a bulb, and by Easter Sunday we are in a position to celebrate all the renewal that is attendant to spring.

jps

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Author: frindon Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 477 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/12/2002 6:43 PM
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I'm trying to think of some "suffering" I could do.
My current idea, which furthers some goals I have, is to sell up to one third of my books and compact discs, putting half to a designated registered charity of my choice (probably something helping poor, indigent women and children), and half to a designated registered charity of the buyer's choice, and then taking half the value of the purchase from my bank stash into my baby's college fund. I can declutter, give to charities and to my baby beyond my maternal duties.


Twice I have given up sugar in my tea for lent, it was horrible. I'm out of condition and a little over weight. My wife says we should join and Gym and diet. That sound too much like benefitting me. Perhaps I should pray more. I don't know what to do this year.

Frindon


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Author: frindon Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 479 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/12/2002 6:51 PM
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The woman at the well starts the story in a state of sin and ends up with grace. The man born blind starts out blind and of course can see. And Lazarus starts the story dead and comes to light.



JP,

The story of the blind man is a good example of what Jesus was up to as well as than doing good. He was proving who He was to the people at that time. Also when He forgave a crippled man's sins and then aske which was the easier to forgive sins or cure the man. He then cured the man.

Then look at Our Lady of Lourdes. How did we know Bernadette saw Our Lady, because miraculous cures took place. There are others all through history. What does Joseph Smith and his ilk offer us? Something there is no proof of.

Frindon



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Author: jeanpaulsartre Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 480 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/12/2002 6:54 PM
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Twice I have given up sugar in my tea for lent, it was horrible. I'm out of condition and a little over weight. My wife says we should join and Gym and diet. That sound too much like benefitting me. Perhaps I should pray more. I don't know what to do this year.

My hardest Lent by far was the Lent I gave up the practice of complaining. I nearly imploded.

Easiest Lent was the practice of reading a psalm a day. And it was, perhaps, the one with the greatest benefit. I didn't stop at Psalm 40. I kept reading right through the end of the Old Testament, a chapter at a time. It took about three hundred days, almost time for another Lent. Such an easy thing to do, and yet so critical to my current spiritual formation! Completely memorable, and so much wisdom in there. A great foundation on which to build.

Orthodox Jews read the Psalms every day of their lives. When they are young, the psalm corresponding to your year of birth is read to you, every day. Amazing how the first 70 psalms correspond so much to the first 70 years of life.

I think I'll do the New Testament this Lent. A chapter a day. (And beyond?) We're reading Matthew this year in ordinary time anyway. Hold me to it, someone.

jps


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Author: joeybags Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 481 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/12/2002 7:38 PM
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I'm trying to think of some "suffering" I could do.

Some call it penance ~ suffering is good to tho :-)

This year my plan is to eat meat no more than once a day and none at all for sure on Fridays - I LOVE meat! I will pray the short way of the cross every day from my Pieta booklet and meditate on Christ's passion and suffering for my own particular "theme" this lent. No music on the radio and whatever other little pleasures I usually indulge myself in, I will try to remember to give up - at first for lent and hopefully for good - For God.


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Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 482 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/13/2002 1:08 AM
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I really am having a hard time understanding how/ why you all can be discussing the matter of your "lenten sacrifices:"

From NKJV Matt 6

1 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 3But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.

5 "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

........

16 "Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 17But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly."


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Author: hermonster Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 483 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/13/2002 1:52 AM
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Urban:

I really am having a hard time understanding how/ why you all can be discussing the matter of your "lenten sacrifices:"

No need for scriptural correction here. Everyone is well aware that God knows what's written in our hearts. This thread is merely about good old fashioned faith sharing--not about pious pretense. Acts of lenten sacrifice are personal issues, between Christ and the individual--I've never seen them performed otherwise among Catholics I know. In simply answering the question put forth in the original post, I don't believe anyone here is acting like the hypocrites mentioned in the scriptural passages you've posted.

Jon


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Author: frindon Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 484 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/13/2002 3:06 AM
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I really am having a hard time understanding how/ why you all can be discussing the matter of your "lenten sacrifices:"


Urban,

You don't know me, I don't know you. It's like ticking off items on your conscience and responding. I could just as easily been criticised for past performance. That is what this board is about. I say here what I would never say to a friend because, a friend might be insulted and never come back whereas I can say what I truly believe and you can't get away. It would never be my intention to hurt and I now recognise the people who are easily hurt so I do not respond to them, unless it is to confirm a good point they make. I would not be so gentle with you because you can take it.(and give it out)

Frindon


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Author: jeanpaulsartre Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 485 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/13/2002 3:39 AM
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I really am having a hard time understanding how/ why you all can be discussing the matter of your "lenten sacrifices:..."

These are good points you make in passing. I hope these reminders inform the faith of many.

* * *

Meanwhile, here's what I am having a hard time understanding: are you here to learn, or are you hear to mock? You haven't expressed much interest in dialog, and your questions about the faith are the same as those that are the usual predictable sore spots fundamentalists employ when they try to pick off the "low hanging fruit" from the tree of Catholicism.

* * *

In answer to this particular concern of yours about not sacrificing as hypocrites, I will first remind you that last Sunday's readings admonish us not to put our light under a bushel. As a Lenten journey is a journey from darkness to light, I don't think judging these journeys as hypocritical before they have even begun is a good spiritual practice. Indeed, it betrays you further as someone who is more interested to find fault than as someone who has concern for spiritual formation.

* * *

Which leads to one key point you should know about the words of Christ: they describe optimal behavior, and unfortunately humans are sub-optimal. We fall short all the time. If you hold us against the measure of perfection, you in particular should not call us hypocrites, for you are human and fall short too. It is clear from scripture that it is not your job to judge how anyone else is doing in their Lenten journey. For ultimate spiritual direction at this time, and to quote a more immediately applicable verse than any of the ones you have referenced: "Judge not, that ye may not be judged".

jeanpaulsartre

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Author: joeybags Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 486 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/13/2002 6:16 AM
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I really am having a hard time understanding how/ why you all can be discussing the matter of your "lenten sacrifices:"

Wow, some really good replies already to this one Urban, I just want to add my .02.

1st, Ash Wednsday, even Lent for that matter is a very Catholic thing and is not easily understood by those who are already "saved" and have no need of observing any type of penance. I like to hear what others think are sacrifices that they make - or attempt to make for God because perhaps its something that I can do in addition to my other sacrifices.

Some simple things like to not watch TV, or give up that night out can be a sacrifice that some one may not have thought of, and if someone on this board was able to plant the seed for another person, it is not bragging or being a hipocrate, it is more like help.

Lent, in part, is about remembering that we are *not* all saved simply because we accept Jesus as our own personal savior. It helps us to remember what Jeus went through for us because of His love for us and that we should willingly make sacrifices for Him to *show* that we love Him as well. With the grace of God, Lent will only be the reminder to make a few sacrifices - sacrifices that will last all our life!

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Author: phantomdiver Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 487 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/13/2002 6:30 AM
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I'm trying to think of some "suffering" I could do.

I generally don't concentrate on suffering but on doing something that will bring me closer to God, something I should probably be doing already but don't have the spine to do. I'll probably go to Mass at least once during the week. I work two blocks from a church, and our parish church has a couple of evening Masses, so that's relatively easy to do.

Suffering never does it for me. No offense meant, really! But I came to Catholicism only five years ago, as an adult. Even though I was very familiar with Catholicism from being married to DH (a committed Catholic) and raising four Catholic kids, I still wasn't ready to become Catholic until then. And there are still some things about Catholicism that I don't get. The idea that suffering is a good thing in and of itself really goes right over my head.

phantomdiver



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Author: foolishjk Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 488 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/13/2002 8:24 AM
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I really am having a hard time understanding how/ why you all can be discussing the matter of your "lenten sacrifices:"

Because we're human. Because we're trying to grow spiritually. Apologies for speaking for the group here, I realize that those two statements are only my opinion.

However, I've derived value from the discussion so far, including something positive that I can do for Lent, that can be offered up to God as penance and that will help me gain a deeper understanding of God's word.

Penitance and sacrifice can take many forms.

Frankly, I don't see how the passages you cite have any application to a discussion of what we're "giving up for Lent".

I didn't see anybody bragging or acting hypocritical. I saw humble hearts revealed. Just people acknowledging their own sense of confusion and other people citing personal experience to provide suggestions to others. People may have been describing how difficult it is for them to give up favorite, everyday pleasures. But that's very human. I'm no scholar, but I've never seen anything that says we should discuss our sacrifices or penitential exercises, nor that we had to be alone in our sacrifices and our pentitence, that we couldn't ask for help from others.

Again, I'm no scholar.

Foolishjk




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Author: frindon Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 490 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/13/2002 2:18 PM
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Suffering never does it for me. No offense meant, really! But I came to Catholicism only five years ago, as an adult. Even though I was very familiar with Catholicism from being married to DH (a committed Catholic) and raising four Catholic kids, I still wasn't ready to become Catholic until then. And there are still some things about Catholicism that I don't get. The idea that suffering is a good thing in and of itself really goes right over my head.

phantomdiver



Who could take offense at honest discussion. I am pleased you chose to join us as did my wife. Now your comment: IMHO it is not about suffering, it is about self discipline. This gives you the ability to resist the very enticing wares that the Prince of Lies has to offer. You become stronger in Jesus Christ and through Him stronger in yourself. If what you do benefits others that is even better, but hard to work out what that is. I have decided to go to the sacredplace daily while on the computer. I emailed the site and received a reply this evening. This is what it said:

Thank you, David, for your kind word, and for spreading the word on "The Motley Fool". Please keep us in your prayers - that we may be able to continue this ministry, which seems to respond to the needs of many all over the world.
God bless you and yours.
Sincerely,
Fr. Gerry

Gerard J. Bourke, S.J.
Jesuit Communication Centre,
36 Lr. Leeson St., Dublin 2


There are over 3million hits on the site register, so I am surprised he took time to reply.

Frindon



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Author: rev2217 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 501 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/13/2002 8:04 PM
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InvestorGrrl,

I'm trying to think of some "suffering" I could do.
My current idea, which furthers some goals I have, is to sell up to one third of my books and compact discs, putting half to a designated registered charity of my choice (probably something helping poor, indigent women and children), and half to a designated registered charity of the buyer's choice, and then taking half the value of the purchase from my bank stash into my baby's college fund. I can declutter, give to charities and to my baby beyond my maternal duties.


I rather think that St. Benedict hit the nail on the head. In the Rule for Monasteries, he wrote that monks don't need to do any additional fasting for Lent becasue they already do enough of that.

The objective of the traditional lenten fast is to give up that which is sinful or harmful so that we become better persons. As Christians, we ought to be doing that all year -- though the season of Lent might bring it to a sharper focus.

The objective of the Lenten fast is not to induce suffering for the sake of experiencing suffering. That attitude is psychotic. Suffering is common to all humanity. We all suffer plenty in our daily lives as it is. Let's use the fast to become healthier and holier Christians rather than to behave in a psychotic way.

Norm.


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Author: rev2217 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 502 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/13/2002 8:07 PM
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Frindon,

Twice I have given up sugar in my tea for lent, it was horrible. I'm out of condition and a little over weight. My wife says we should join and Gym and diet. That sound too much like benefitting me. Perhaps I should pray more. I don't know what to do this year.

Somehow the "benefitting me" issue sounds like an excuse to avoid that which God might be calling you to do. The lenten fast is supposed to be about giving up our unhealthy and sinful ways and becoming more healthy and holy.

Quit making excuses and pray for the grace to address whatever you need to address during this Lent.

Norm.


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Author: cowbuyclown Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 505 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/13/2002 11:22 PM
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Hi every one;

This year, my second year of coming back to the Church, I am trying to undo a lifetime of religious neglect. That is I am trying to learn about my God and my Church. Last year I walked around for a year in an emotional high from hearing God's call to me.

Urban thank you for asking your question about the intensions of sharing Lenten sacrifice. To all others thank you for such informed answers about why we sacrifice during Lent.

Tonight I went to ash Wed. Services. My Priest expressed Lent to me kind of in these terms. During Lent we should focus on our contrition, and ways to understand sorrow for our sins. As on judgment day we will face our Maker Who we have done wrong to. And as we look into our Fathers Eyes we then will see the hurt we have caused to God Who Loves us more than anything else. Buy seeing this hurt that we are cause of, in One that loves us so, we will feel true sorrow. And will want to remove this sorrow from God's face, and the shame that will be on us. So during Lent pray to see in one's self the sin that has caused this ultimate act of Love on Calvary. Share in the responsibility of your actions and examine your actions during Lent. Understand that Christ became man and Died for our sins, what are we willing to sacrifice to atone for our sins? What earthly sins will we discover in ourselves?

Am I grasping the meaning of Lent?

Others on this board have expressed this so much better than I.

Well anyhow just some of my thoughts as I head into Lent. Be it known that your posts have helped me examine my own intensions as to what Lent means to me and how best to take advantage of guidance from my Church, in following the teaching's of Christ.

I pray during this Lenten season that my Foolish friends will share their knowledge of Church with their friend cowbuyclown ,and understand their actions on this board help unite the fallen with their God and Church. God Bless cowbuyclown


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Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 516 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/14/2002 10:08 PM
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Let those who state that the Catholic faith does not teach that works are not also required for salvation respond to this post from our brother Joeybags. As I read it, it seems clear that he is indicating works in addition to the saving work of Christ on the crss are required. I can and will respond if need be, but I hesitate to get the discussion sidetracked on a non-Catholic view. If what you staunch RCCs say is true, then explain joeybag's position.

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Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 518 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/14/2002 10:10 PM
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God does not need your help to convict the heart of a sinner who cannot or does not or will not realize that he/ she could stand to give up on a given sinful activity or two, but the reason why he/ she might do such a thing is out of loving obedience towards God.

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Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 519 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/14/2002 10:23 PM
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"No need for scriptural correction here. Everyone is well aware that God knows what's written in our hearts. This thread is merely about good old fashioned faith sharing--not about pious pretense. Acts of lenten sacrifice are personal issues, between Christ and the individual--I've never seen them performed otherwise among Catholics I know. In simply answering the question put forth in the original post, I don't believe anyone here is acting like the hypocrites mentioned in the scriptural passages you've posted."

Then you should reread the scriptures posted to understand this was not an issue of hypocrisy, but of private devotion to God, as you are commanded. Public displays of devotion are never counseled.

This Matt 6 passage particularly applies: "16 "Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 17But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly."

Isn't the lenten association with Jesus 40 days in the desert? That was a 40-day fast in compliance with an ancient Jewish tradition. Note that "fasting" need not necessarily mean a food fast. So, rereading the above passage and the highlighted section, we see that Jesus commands us to "not appear to men to be fasting." How, then, can there be any rational and scripturally sound reason for "sharing" a lenten fast? There's no value in it, particularly while its going on. Do it for God's sake alone. He will reward you. Exhort one another to fast, if you like, but keep your own sacrifice to yourself, unless you want to forgo God's promised reward for your piety and obedience. It's your call.

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Author: HisDelight Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 520 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/14/2002 10:46 PM
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I Urban's in a bad mood, everybody.

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Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 521 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/14/2002 10:51 PM
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I am filled with the Holy Spirit! Let no one blaspheme the Holy Spirit!

Praise be to God! Hallelujah to the King of Kings! The Lord of Lords! He, who is worthy of all our praise! Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lamb, the Son of God!

If this is a bad mood, then I pray that our Almighty Father God place me in a bad mood every day of the rest of my life! Praise be to God!!! Hallelujah!

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Author: cowbuyclown Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 522 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/14/2002 10:52 PM
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Howdy.
" How, then, can there be any rational and scripturally sound reason for "sharing" a lenten fast? There's no value in it, particularly while its going on. Do it for God's sake alone


One rational reason to "share" discussion about Lenten fast might be to help inform struggling fools such as myself to better understand my Catholic faith.

I have sought out advise on many basic topics concerning Catholic faith. I often include in my posts requests for more information on relevant matters concerning Church teaching.

Joeybags has been helping me learn about traditional Church beliefs in prayer. I feel his post and many of the post on this board have been for my benefit.

ie I am ignorant of my Church .I am seeking reconciliation.I have learned so much in the last 2 days about Lent and why I as a Catholic cherish this chance(Lent) to reflect on our Lords Passion.

Understand much good has come my way from Joeybags and others response to the leading question.

your friend cowbuyclown









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Author: HisDelight Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 523 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/14/2002 10:52 PM
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Praying for you, Urban. :-)

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Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 525 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/14/2002 11:19 PM
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Then let's discuss it, my brother CBC.

Fasting is a good and holy thing. We are called to do it. The scriptures are clear that we fast to crucify our carnal selves as we seek to bring ourselves closer to the Christ-like life we are called to live. Do it for that reason alone. What should you do? How should you fast? What should you "give up?" Pray about it. The perfect fast will not be the thing that I might give up, but that which the Holy Spirit purposes in your heart, so call upon Him! Let the Holy Spirit tell you. He is the one who convicts our hearts... that little voice in your heart that says, "Well, I know I really shouldn't smoke" or "I know I don't need to eat that 27th chocolate-chip cookie, but..." and so you know there are things you can "give up" not just for lent, but for life. Let the Holy Spirit guide you. Then you know it will be a holy thing in God's eyes.

There, we've spoken about it. Do you know what I'm giving up? Have I had to make any proclaimations about it in order to have an edifying discussion about the piety and appropriatness of fasting? If I've missed or confused anything for you, let me know and we can look together to the Scriptures for guidance. I will also happily pray WITH you, my brother, for the answers you seek. For Christ told us:

Matthew 18:19-20 19"Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."

Isn't that an amazing promise He made? Jesus Christ, right there in our midst, my brother CBC! Wow!

Your loving brother in Christ,
Urban

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Author: cowbuyclown Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 527 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 12:26 AM
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Urban

thankyou

cowbuyclown

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Author: joeybags Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 529 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 7:01 AM
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Urban, at the risk of starting a debate (which I feel you are after), I feel compelled to answer for myself.

Let those who state that the Catholic faith does not teach that works are not also required for salvation respond to this post from our brother Joeybags. As I read it, it seems clear that he is indicating works in addition to the saving work of Christ on the crss are required. I can and will respond if need be, but I hesitate to get the discussion sidetracked on a non-Catholic view. If what you staunch RCCs say is true, then explain joeybag's position.

Works is 100% necessary for salvation, we are not saved by faith alone. This is another one of those little things that pick at me like a thorn in my side because when I was protestant, I knew I was saved by my "faith in Jesus Christ alone". This is of course, simply not the case and I thank God for His RCC that preserved the truth when no one else does.

It is not “my” position, it is written in the Bible and is part of the teaching of the RCC that faith without works is dead ~ James 2:17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. and another that says point blank ~ James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Yet another James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? Since I am already there, have another ~ James 2:26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead. In a nutshell, these verses confirm that it takes more to attain salvation than simply accepting Jesus as a personal savior.
Here we see where the RCC has held onto the literal interpretation of the Bible thorough out the ages - no other sect can make this claim, rather, they distort it in one way or another to suit a purpose.

As for the original questions that you had:
I really am having a hard time understanding how/ why you all can be discussing the matter of your "lenten sacrifices:"

It is a matter of charity, not boasting. I refer you to 1 Cor. Chapter 13 ~ the whole chapter, which btw, is another witness to the fact that it takes more than “faith” to attain salvation.
Oh what the heck, I'll post one more reference showing that “faith” without charity is not worth a thing either.
1 Cor. 13:2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

It really seems like you are wanting to start a debate here Urban, I do not mind, I only hope it won't go the way of the CF board.

God Bless you!!!!





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Author: foolishjk Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 531 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 7:21 AM
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God does not need your help to convict the heart of a sinner who cannot or does not or will not realize that he/ she could stand to give up on a given sinful activity or two, but the reason why he/ she might do such a thing is out of loving obedience towards God.

I wasn't offering my help, BTW. Others were.

People are human, give 'em I break. I'm convinced God does. I don't recall anyone on this thread saying, "Should I give something up for Lent?" The answer to that question is an exercise of free will, with which our Creator endowed every one of us. However, I don't recall anything or anyone ever writing or saying that we couldn't ask each other for advice or suggestions. What we do with that advice is, again, an exercise of free will.

What I do recall on this thread is people asking for advice or suggestions on what activity to undertake, in a penitent spirit, during Lent. In loving obedience to God, they made themselves humble before their community and asked for help. Others, in an act of Christian charity and love, made suggestions.

All of these choices were made with free will, another of God's gift. God gave us the ability to choose, and lots of aids and signposts to make the choice of loving obedience to him. Whether we do so is up to each of us.

Foolishjk

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Author: phantomdiver Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 537 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 10:13 AM
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Exhort one another to fast, if you like, but keep your own sacrifice to yourself, unless you want to forgo God's promised reward for your piety and obedience.

I thought that sharing what we were doing was exhorting each other. We weren't standing on a soapbox saying "Look at me! I'm so holy! I'm giving up chocolates/novels/soap operas for Lent! Woo hoo, I am sooooo great!" Seems to me we were giving each other ideas, that's all.

phantomdiver

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Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 538 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 1:16 PM
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"I thought that sharing what we were doing was exhorting each other. We weren't standing on a soapbox saying "Look at me! I'm so holy! I'm giving up chocolates/novels/soap operas for Lent! Woo hoo, I am sooooo great!" Seems to me we were giving each other ideas, that's all."

So, the Holy Spirit is not capable of doing it, or perhaps you believe you can do a better job of helping a brother or sister decide what to "give up" for lent? Your approach sounds great, and I confess I used to fall into that mode/ trap/ habit every lenten season right there with the rest of my RCC brothers and sisters. Now with my eyes opened to the Truth by the Holy Spirit, I see that such a approach is not truly "exhortation."

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Author: jeanpaulsartre Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 539 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 1:44 PM
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So, the Holy Spirit is not capable of doing it, or perhaps you believe you can do a better job of helping a brother or sister decide what to "give up" for lent? Your approach sounds great, and I confess I used to fall into that mode/ trap/ habit every lenten season right there with the rest of my RCC brothers and sisters. Now with my eyes opened to the Truth by the Holy Spirit, I see that such a approach is not truly "exhortation."

When is the Truth of the Holy Spirit going to reveal to you that you are just being condescending and trite towards the 2000 year tradition of wisdom that formed your, and your fundamentalist pastor's, whole understanding of it?

jps

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Author: frindon Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 540 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 2:07 PM
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Let those who state that the Catholic faith does not teach that works are not also required for salvation respond to this post from our brother Joeybags. As I read it, it seems clear that he is indicating works in addition to the saving work of Christ on the crss are required. I can and will respond if need be, but I hesitate to get the discussion sidetracked on a non-Catholic view. If what you staunch RCCs say is true, then explain joeybag's position.

Oh Urban, I see you have been listening to those who would denigrate the Catholic Church. We have had this out so frequently it is almost like an old friend. Basically Jesus lived and died so that a perfect sacrifice could be made to God. While we might sacrifice various things, even our lives, that is not enough being that it has to be a perfect sacrifice to a perfect God. Non of us are perfect so God became a man, a perfect man capable of that one and only satisfactory sacrifice. In doing that He opened the gates to heaven to us and invited us in. So what do we have to do to get into heaven? AH, here comes the works says he, but no, sorry, we have to love God, Jesus, in order to get to heaven for it is a truism that you will not get to heaven unless you love God. OK, so far. You agree I hope.
How do you love God? The answer is in the gospels, as clear as clear can be, Jesus said "If you love me keep my commandments" Note not the minimalist commandments of the OT but His new commandment. Love God with your whole heart and your neighbour as yourself. That implies doing something, it is not pius thoughts about God and your neighbour. So what are these positive actions you should take on willingly if you love God. No doubt you would call them good works. Then some hater of the Catholic Church will come out with "Works based Salvation, blasphemy." Thinking about it isn't that what the Pharesees said of Jesus.
Now, why would someone try to twist God's own words to say that is wrong?

Frindon




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Author: frindon Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 541 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 2:10 PM
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Do it for God's sake alone. He will reward you. Exhort one another to fast, if you like, but keep your own sacrifice to yourself, unless you want to forgo God's promised reward for your piety and obedience. It's your call.

Ahhhhh!, blasphemy. Works based salvation.

Frindon


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Author: frindon Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 542 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 2:12 PM
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I Urban's in a bad mood, everybody.

So I have noticed. I suppose I should not poke fun at him then.

OK, Urban, sorry. Hope you are feeling in a happier mood soon.

Frindon


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Author: phantomdiver Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 544 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 3:20 PM
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I thought that sharing what we were doing was exhorting each other. We weren't standing on a soapbox saying "Look at me! I'm so holy! I'm giving up chocolates/novels/soap operas for Lent! Woo hoo, I am sooooo great!" Seems to me we were giving each other ideas, that's all.

So, the Holy Spirit is not capable of doing it, or perhaps you believe you can do a better job of helping a brother or sister decide what to "give up" for lent?

I think the Holy Spirit is perfectly capable of speaking directly to a person, speaking to a group of people through any of us, or speaking in some other way. I don't restrict the Spirit in any way. In this case, I read the original message asking what people were doing for Lent as a request for fellowship and inspiration. I discerned that it would be instructive for me to share what I often do, and I posted it publicly.

You seem to be awfully agitated by what we've been saying, and I'm sorry to see it. I'm also puzzled. I just don't see where the problem is.

phantomdiver

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Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 545 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 4:29 PM
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The Holy Spirit, being fully God, cannot contradict God. Therefore, the Holy Spirit would not place in you the desire to pronounce the nature of your fast because that would directly contradict this passage, which I hope you're carefully reading:

Matt 6:17-18 "17But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly."

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Author: phantomdiver Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 4:37 PM
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The Holy Spirit, being fully God, cannot contradict God. Therefore, the Holy Spirit would not place in you the desire to pronounce the nature of your fast because that would directly contradict this passage, which I hope you're carefully reading:

Matt 6:17-18 "17But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly."


And a wonderful passage it is. It's the reason I wipe my ashes off before leaving church on Ash Wednesday.

It seems to me that you are leaving beginning Christians kind of in the lurch, though. They aren't used to listening for the Holy Spirit yet. They still need to hear actual words. I know my kids do, and I think they're in the same category as beginning adult Christians.

And anyway, I didn't say what I'm doing this Lent. I said what I have found to be useful for some other Lenten seasons. I haven't told anybody what I'm doing this Lent -- if anything -- because I haven't been led to do so.

phantomdiver

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Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 4:48 PM
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Your example does not constitute the normal approach with which most Catholics I know treat their lenten fast. In any event, I don't think that the promise of a Godly reward for your obedient sacrifice to him applies for a period of time. To tell me what you gave up last for lent is the same thing as telling me what you gave up this year for lent.

I would also posit that you are in the extreme minority with regards to wiping off the ashes prior to exiting church. A drive around downtown some Ash Wednesday afternoon will confirm my observation.

So, let's not throw out the search for the general truth by finding the odd exception.

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Author: GlasMenagerie Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 548 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 4:50 PM
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The Holy Spirit, being fully God, cannot contradict God. Therefore, the Holy Spirit would not place in you the desire to pronounce the nature of your fast because that would directly contradict this passage, which I hope you're carefully reading:

Matt 6:17-18


Along the same rationale, Matt 6: 5-6 would then suggest that folks should not pray in Church. I think in both cases the censure is against enacting the outward show of prayer or sacrifice without the corresponding integrity within the spirit. Your posts seem to be tending toward making loving thy neighbor a black-ops affair.

Your quote is a good one. It was read in Mass on Sunday. However it would seem that a portion of the ritual of being annointed with the ash is not so that you may display your own piety, but rather as a reminder within the community, a visible indication of the temporal nature of this existence, that you see on the foreheads of everyone around you. Despite the sacrifices one makes throughout the year (should I list mine here? -- just kidding) it would seem the Lenten season is more of a communal exercise in which we all learn to make changes in a manner similar to how we may learn to pray better when isolated if we pray with the congregation as a whole.

Cheers,
Tim

(PS) I'm no authority, and I greatly enjoy discussion of religion, or I would not be here. I am open to and ready for anyone to say they disagree. I'm just thinking God said to Adam & Eve don't eat the apple, and look what happened. Who contradicted whom there?

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Author: frindon Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 549 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 5:43 PM
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The Holy Spirit, being fully God, cannot contradict God. Therefore, the Holy Spirit would not place in you the desire to pronounce the nature of your fast because that would directly contradict this passage, which I hope you're carefully reading:



Is that not exactly the same argument I put forward to say that all churches cannot be guided by the Holy Spirit unless they are identical?

Frindon


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Author: joeybags Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 550 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 6:16 PM
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The Holy Spirit, being fully God, cannot contradict God. Therefore, the Holy Spirit would not place in you the desire to pronounce the nature of your fast because that would directly contradict this passage, which I hope you're carefully reading:

Matt 6:17-18 "17But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly."


Urban,
First, as I said, Lent is a Catholic thing, so is Ash Wednsday. When I was Protestant, it seems that I used to go out of my way as you are now to try understand the thinking behind the whole shabang. After all, neither Ash Wedsday nor Lent is ever mentioned in the Bible anywhere so why does anyone even acknowledge it as anything at all?

No one here is bragging. What is it that you really are after?

If RCCs want to show God that they love Him by performing acts of penance in reperation for our sins, what could that possibly harm?

What if others ask about it and other RCCs give examples - again, what could that possibly harm? Is it boasting to help anyone? To answer anyone?
Using your apparant reasoning, one ought not even go to church for fear that he is worshipping out in the open. Pastors could not preach for the same reason. Heck, we can keep going with this one.

The bottom line is that your interpretation of scripture is a)taken out of context and b)you have some reason for your dislike of the RC faith to start with which will prevent you from the understanding needed.
This, of course is jmho

God Bless!

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Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 551 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 6:22 PM
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If you're going to a church whose congregational gathering has any purpose other than the Glory of God the Father, you're in the wrong church. The gathering's sole purpose is for the glory of God the Father. There is no contradicition within a holy gathering of true believers in praying aloud lifting their voices in worship to the Most High.

Along the same vein, just because some within the congregation whisper and discuss amongst themselves what they're giving up to see who is the more pious or who is praying the most fervently, that doesn't necessarily render the entire service in contradiction to Matt 6.

I've faithfully stated the Word of God. The scriptural references have been cited. Let each seek the Truth from our Lord God in this matter.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ACTS+17:11&language=english&version=NKJV&showfn=off&showxref=off


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Author: joycets Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 552 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 7:03 PM
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I believe I started my giving up -- of much food "bad for me" and
also chocolate candy (I had some cake with chocolate in it wednesday and didn't even think of it as such).
earlier because of a "diet issue" that may not count as lent,
not completely, but the attempt at denial is also an attempt at better eating and something good for me.

and less meat.

joycets


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Author: HisDelight Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 553 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 7:13 PM
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Urban,

"So, the Holy Spirit is not capable of doing it, or perhaps you believe you can do a better job..."

I'm sure that wasn't what was going through your mind (was it?) when you posted the following.

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=15980040

Quite explicit instructions, too, I might add. Were you perhaps thinking that the Holy Spirit couldn't move on the Christians at CF and that you could do a better job? Or were you offering your advice, trying to help? I see a lot of that here. Genuine, truly caring hearts. People who want to learn, better understand, and help each other. Why is it okay on CF when you initiate it but it isn't on the Catholic Fools...oh wait *light bulb*--bingo! (joke)--Catholics are posting here.

The people on this board have neither said or done anything wrong. God loves this board. I know I do.

Pam



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Author: phantomdiver Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 554 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 7:27 PM
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Your example does not constitute the normal approach with which most Catholics I know treat their lenten fast.

I don't know if "most Catholics" actually exist. I know different Catholics approach the Lenten observance differently.

In any event, I don't think that the promise of a Godly reward for your obedient sacrifice to him applies for a period of time.

I don't do a Lenten observance for a future heavenly reward, though God may very well choose to reward me for it. I do it because it benefits my soul now and because I feel called to do it. I'm sure other Catholics do it for different reasons.

To tell me what you gave up last for lent is the same thing as telling me what you gave up this year for lent.

It is? Now I'm really confused, and not for the first time.

So the idea is that I should never ever discuss my Lenten observances with my brothers and sisters in Christ? We should all do this without each other's fellowship and support?

Do you really never get good spiritual ideas from your fellow Christians? Do you get them all from the Holy Spirit direct to you with no intervening people sparking ideas in you?

That sounds pretty grim to me.

I would also posit that you are in the extreme minority with regards to wiping off the ashes prior to exiting church. A drive around downtown some Ash Wednesday afternoon will confirm my observation.

How would you know? If I've wiped mine off and you don't see them, then you wouldn't even know that I'd been to Mass. Surely there are other people downtown who don't go to Mass on Ash Wednesday? I can't think of any area that is so Catholic/Episcopalian that there wouldn't be some people who didn't go.

So, let's not throw out the search for the general truth by finding the odd exception.

I'm not searching for the general truth -- at least not in the area of Lenten observance. I'm just saying what my experience has been. The Body of Christ is made up of lots of individuals with individual experiences.

phantomdiver

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Author: phantomdiver Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 558 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 7:41 PM
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Along the same vein, just because some within the congregation whisper and discuss amongst themselves what they're giving up to see who is the more pious or who is praying the most fervently, that doesn't necessarily render the entire service in contradiction to Matt 6.

LOL! I can see it now -- lots of whispering in the pews! "I love God more than you do, because I gave up meat for Lent!" "No, I do! Because I gave up meat *and* chocolate!" "Well -- well -- then I'll see your chocolate and raise you dinner out!"

It's the kind of thing you find on those anti-Catholic websites whose URLS I won't dignify by reproducing them here. I'm just surprised that it leaves out the part about priests and nuns having sex and then killing the resultant babies on the altar.

phantomdiver

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Author: phantomdiver Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 559 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 7:45 PM
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Hey, Tim, great to see you here!

So do you ride your bike to church? ;-)

phantomdiver

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Author: GlasMenagerie Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 561 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 8:33 PM
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Hey PD. :)

I can assure you, that when I do bike to Mass, I do so quietly.

;)

Cheers,
Tim

(PS) Whatcha doin' for Lent? My sacrifice is *REALLLY* Holy...

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Author: phantomdiver Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 563 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/15/2002 10:12 PM
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Whatcha doin' for Lent? My sacrifice is *REALLLY* Holy...

I bet mine is holier than yours! A lot holier! <punches Tim> There, that'll show you!

phantomdiver

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Author: jeanpaulsartre Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 566 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/16/2002 11:20 AM
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I would also posit that you are in the extreme minority with regards to wiping off the ashes prior to exiting church. A drive around downtown some Ash Wednesday afternoon will confirm my observation.


Hah hahh. And how would you or anyone know when, "downtown some Ash Wednesday afternoon", you saw the foreheads of someone who had wiped off their ashes?

Ooooh, people who wear their faith on their sleeve or on their forehead and are not of your own faith must really bug you. What if you ever saw someone in a--gasp--yarmulke?

jps

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Author: GlasMenagerie Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 567 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/16/2002 11:37 AM
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Ooooh, people who wear their faith on their sleeve or on their forehead and are not of your own faith must really bug you. What if you ever saw someone in a--gasp--yarmulke?

C'mon JPS... we're supposed to bury our talents. Hide our lights under a bushel. Says so in the good book right? The irony I most enjoyed: Guy criticizes folks... saying they're not being proper Christians (i.e. behaving as he chooses to) because they tell each other how they choose to behave with regard to Lent. Is that not very similar to his caricature of people using the Lenten season to establish who is holier than whom?

Well, he seems to have quieted down. I hope he affords himself as much time for introspection, and that he & all of us find whatever path is going to take us to the good place. In the meantime, I'll try & grapple with the sudden invocations of "No Exit" in my head.

Cheers,
Tim

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Author: HisDelight Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 568 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/16/2002 12:09 PM
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"Well, he seems to have quieted down"

Urban? Nah, I think he's working up steam on the apocrypha. Keeps him busy. *g*

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=16687410

Pam




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Author: joeybags Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 569 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/16/2002 12:27 PM
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Urban? Nah, I think he's working up steam on the apocrypha. Keeps him busy. *g*

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=16687410

Pam


Did someone say "apocrypha" :-)

http://members.aol.com/johnprh/deuterocanonical.html#SAINT%20%20JEROME

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Author: jeanpaulsartre Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 571 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/16/2002 12:43 PM
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C'mon JPS... we're supposed to bury our talents. Hide our lights under a bushel. Says so in the good book right?

The interesting thing about tomorrow's Gospel, to me, is the fact that the devil employs a scriptural quotation, and from a Psalm even. So it turns out, as Shakespeare said, and as we often see in life, that the devil himself can cite scripture for his purpose.

Christ, who has just fasted for 40 days and 40 nights (which we honor and emulate in Lent), is far from baffled by the tempter citing scripture, even though he's hungry he just sees through it and throws another passage right back. One key message I derive from this exchange is that we should read scripture critically, and are invited, by Christ himself, to study, to interpret, and to parse. In fundamentalism, conversely, all scriptures are literal (except, of course, the ones about Christ being Bread of Life), there is not much room or call for interpretation or parsing, and the person from who all the parsing knowledge comes is not the churchgoer, or the "church", or even a long tradition of academic wisdom, it is simply the guy who gets to talk into the microphone every Sunday: the presider. No wonder so many are megalomaniacs!

[The first part of tomorrow's reading, however, is even more "Catholic", to my mind. The tempter first asks Christ to turn rocks into bread. Christ says that "man does not live by"...you know. That "rocks to bread" and then the "not by bread but by Word" just foreshadows the Eucharist so splendidly to me. The devil demands that Christ change the attributes of rocks, make it something else. But Christ talks of Word--he won't change mere attributes, he will change substance--ergo our mystical transubstantiation of "bread" into "Bread". Later Christ, as the Word, is revealed as the Bread of Life, nothing less.]

The fundamentalist "faith" is dependent on prying people loose from their various churches by mocking their wisdom with unparsed and uninterpreted scripture, and, like the tempter in the above passage, seeks to upend reason and spirit with slippery scriptural citations. The fact that Catholics are occasionally vulnerable to this kind of temptation indicates that many Catholics have received inadequate spiritual preparation for being Catholics, and we should wish them well when they are being fed elsewhere. But it is also Christ-like to call fundamentalists on their slippery scriptural citations, and to send them away, dismissively and quickly, whenever they present themselves.

jps

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Author: HisDelight Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 573 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/16/2002 12:55 PM
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"The fundamentalist "faith" is dependent on prying people loose from their various churches by mocking their wisdom with unparsed and uninterpreted scripture..."

One of the biggest eye-openers for me, spiritually, was when I realized that my "knowledge" of what the Catholic church teaches--and my "fuel" for thinking that Catholics are deceived--was based on nothing more than misinformation and so much hot air--and really, that's what prejudice is--a puffed up hot air balloon. I like to think of myself as a reasonably intelligent woman, and I'm still surprised at times to realize that I allowed myself to go along with the crowd without checking things for myself. I still have so much to learn--and I know I always will-- but I can say without hesitation that my walk with the Catholic church has done so much to deepen my relationship with Him. It truly is a love relationship, and there's never an end to what we can discover and learn.

Pam

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Author: frindon Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 574 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/16/2002 2:12 PM
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Christ, who has just fasted for 40 days and 40 nights (which we honor and emulate in Lent), is far from baffled by the tempter citing scripture, even though he's hungry he just sees through it and throws another passage right back. One key message I derive from this exchange is that we should read scripture critically, and are invited, by Christ himself, to study, to interpret, and to parse. In fundamentalism, conversely, all scriptures are literal (except, of course, the ones about Christ being Bread of Life), there is not much room or call for interpretation or parsing, and the person from who all the parsing knowledge comes is not the churchgoer, or the "church", or even a long tradition of academic wisdom, it is simply the guy who gets to talk into the microphone every Sunday: the presider. No wonder so many are megalomaniacs!



Since none of the apostles were with Jesus when He was tempted, or anyone else for that matter, does this mean that Jesus spoke about it. If this is so are we emulating Jesus if we speak about lenten observances, purely for guidance purposes. (Obviously not for self glorification)

Frindon



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Author: mglf Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 576 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/16/2002 4:16 PM
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"Christ, who has just fasted for 40 days and 40 nights (which we honor and emulate in Lent), is far from baffled by the tempter citing scripture, even though he's hungry he just sees through it and throws another passage right back. One key message I derive from this exchange is that we should read scripture critically, and are invited, by Christ himself, to study, to interpret, and to parse. In fundamentalism, conversely, all scriptures are literal (except, of course, the ones about Christ being Bread of Life), there is not much room or call for interpretation or parsing, and the person from who all the parsing knowledge comes is not the churchgoer, or the "church", or even a long tradition of academic wisdom, it is simply the guy who gets to talk into the microphone every Sunday: the presider. No wonder so many are megalomaniacs!"

Nice exegesis.

mglf
I'd rec it twice if my doppel were still alive.

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Author: joeybags Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 579 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/16/2002 4:27 PM
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One of the biggest eye-openers for me, spiritually, was when I realized that my "knowledge" of what the Catholic church teaches--and my "fuel" for thinking that Catholics are deceived--was based on nothing more than misinformation and so much hot air--and really, that's what prejudice is--a puffed up hot air balloon. I like to think of myself as a reasonably intelligent woman, and I'm still surprised at times to realize that I allowed myself to go along with the crowd without checking things for myself. I still have so much to learn--and I know I always will-- but I can say without hesitation that my walk with the Catholic church has done so much to deepen my relationship with Him. It truly is a love relationship, and there's never an end to what we can discover and learn.

Pam


Wow Pam, really love the way you put things - sometimes ;-))

I must say that for a very long time, the whole protestant/catholic thing REALLY had me in the dumps because once I could no longer believe things that did not seem to make sense to me - I sort of despised alot of Protestants because I felt as tho they fooled me. Silly I know. But here I was, born a RCC, left it for the major part of my life, only to return later.

But it really amazes me now, to know that I was a part of something that I now see was so totally mis-informed that sometimes, at its extremes, it boarderd on lunacy. Idolatry was always a big one, so was the slant on how the RCs did not read the Bible. I could just cringe when I think of myself saying stuff like that - and worse. Sure hope God shows His mercy to me when I meet Him!

I also know better now - thanks to Norm and others on this board about what the RCC really teaches about Ecuminism. The importance of remaining RC while trying to be ecumenical - not the other way around. The necessity of trying to reach out to our seperated bretheren to bring them into the RCC must necessarily be part of our faith.

For along time, I was extremely confused about the whole ecuminism thing too. After I came back to the faith, for a long time I thought for that, in the interest of ecuminism, the RCC had changed its position on the necessity of being a RC to be saved - but as Norm supplied the link for the V2 council, I saw that it echos beautifully all the past Councils in this regards by repeating past Councils in regards to the necessity of being RCC for salvation.

I'll reference this post on V2 snips: http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=16238110

So to Urban and anyone else who lurks, ask or challenges, welcome! If you are sincere in your quest, this is one place that I think will help!

I really love this board!

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Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 619 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/18/2002 7:22 PM
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Dearest Pam,

Here's what I wrote (original emphasis retained):

"Our Lord has called me to minister to the homeless near my downtown apartment. As I do, they frequently ask for the things they need and God always seems to provide somehow. His miracles never cease. Pray that His will continue to be done. "PLEASE offer me NOT ONE word of glory for this calling, because it is solely got the Glory of God in fulfillment of his commandment to me.

Tell me: from the original post can you discern what action (if any) have I personally taken in dealing with the homeless?

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Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 620 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/18/2002 7:27 PM
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So sorry, Tim, I have "quieted down" for two reasons: one, I was out of town and two, I've made my point. I didn't "quiet down" because of the "forcefulness" with which people are defending this practice that I believe to be errant and misguided according to the scriptures.

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Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 621 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/18/2002 7:38 PM
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Of course I make such an assertion because of the huge numbers of people who have NOT wiped of their ashes. It's really not that hard to understand, unless you either trying not to or are too "blind" to see clearly what is presented and/ or stated.

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Author: HisDelight Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 622 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/18/2002 7:42 PM
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hehehe,

IUrban,

"Tell me: from the original post can you discern what action (if any) have I personally taken in dealing with the homeless?"

Didn't have to guess. You'd told us before about the sack lunches, etc. you brought down to them. But in this post, I will admit you did come across a little differently--you mention specific dollar amounts and tell everyone they'll be blessed. Buy a blessing, anyone? *LOL*

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Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 623 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/18/2002 7:50 PM
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<Do it for God's sake alone. He will reward you. Exhort one another to fast, if you like, but keep your own sacrifice to yourself, unless you want to forgo God's promised reward for your piety and obedience. It's your call.>

<<Ahhhhh!, blasphemy. Works based salvation.>>


Frindon,

God's promised reward for such actions is not salvation (for salvation is solely a gift of God's grace through the blood of His Son Jesus Christ,) but "treasures" so stored in heaven. Here are Jesus' own words on this matter in case you're confused or have forgotten:

NKJV Matt 6: 1-21

1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread.
12Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.'
14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
16"When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 17But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

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Author: HisDelight Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 624 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/18/2002 8:05 PM
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IUrban,

"I've made my point..."

We should be concerned with making God's point, not our own. I remember that right after I was saved I was a lot like you are now--I knew best. I forgot some critical points--it's Jesus that saves, He is the way--not you, IUrban. I realize you have issues with the Catholic church. However, the fact that you're not willing to deal with them constructively, through counseling, perhaps, in no way entitles you to assume that you can come here and be what amounts to little more than a troll on this board. That's neither adult or Christian. People can help you deal with your problems, but you have to want help and you have to let them. People have offered to help you, and the offers have been rejected. Best when you realize that no one but you is responsible for the poor way you're handling yourself.

Pam

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Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 625 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/18/2002 8:26 PM
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Thank you, Pam. You, too, have been a shining example of Christ-like love.

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Author: HisDelight Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 626 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/18/2002 8:27 PM
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You've said that before, Urban, and I doubted your sincerity, so I appreciate you telling me again.

God bless you,

Pam

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Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 627 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/18/2002 8:32 PM
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I pray you never doubt my sincerity: my sincerity to God's will and His Word. I pray the any fruit I bear be recognized as God's increase. I pray that all glory and honor for any righteous work I ever perform be given to His who is worthy of all glory and honor now and forever. Let no man ever receive the glory that is due God!

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Author: joeybags Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 628 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/18/2002 8:42 PM
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I pray you never doubt my sincerity: my sincerity to God's will and His Word.

Urban, the first step might be to read the correct Bible. There are usually some very informative footnotes for some of the harder to understand scriptures.

Beyond that, there is Our Blessed Mother who will always help if you ask Her to.

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Author: Fallout2Queen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 629 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/18/2002 9:25 PM
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I pray you never doubt my sincerity: my sincerity to God's will and His Word. I pray the any fruit I bear be recognized as God's increase. I pray that all glory and honor for any righteous work I ever perform be given to His who is worthy of all glory and honor now and forever. Let no man ever receive the glory that is due God!

<delurk>
Urban, the tone of your post sounds a lot like what somebody else recently wrote on the CF board:

The "popular" following you have, almost silenced us . . .and bad advice from other posters discouraged us . . .but God pumps us with zeal that you cannot imagine, and we will resume posting the TRUTH OF GOD, ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES from here on out, not matter how badly you and others squeal!

So get used to it . . .
http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=16705428

And I'll ask you a question similar to what I asked the poster who wrote the above quote... Are you sure that your zeal for confronting the Catholic practices you personally disagree with is really coming from God? The dissention you're causing here, is that fruit of the Holy Spirit or is it Satan stirring the pot?

FWIW I'm not a Catholic and the whole lenten sacrafice thing doesn't appeal to me, but if it helps our Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ deepen their relationship with Him, then good for them. They might be put off by the simplicity of services at my church, but it helps me be closer to Christ. Different styles of worship appeal to different people. These are relatively trivial issues compared to the enormity of God's love for us.

<back to occasionally lurking>

-- Fran




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Author: frindon Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 632 of 9085
Subject: Re: What are you doing for Lent? Date: 2/19/2002 2:46 AM
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<<Ahhhhh!, blasphemy. Works based salvation.>>

Frindon,

God's promised reward for such actions is not salvation (for salvation is solely a gift of God's grace through the blood of His Son Jesus Christ,) but "treasures" so stored in heaven. Here are Jesus' own words on this matter in case you're confused or have forgotten:



Lighten up Urban, I'm not criticising you. I'm having a laugh, surely you can recognise that.

Frindon


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