UnThreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (13) | Ignore Thread Prev Thread | Next Thread
Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1947871  
Subject: What if Zimmerman were a cop? Date: 3/27/2012 8:39 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Would he have the right to kill Trayvon because they were fighting?

Peter
Print the post Back To Top
Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762436 of 1947871
Subject: Re: What if Zimmerman were a cop? Date: 3/27/2012 8:49 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
No. Not in NYC. There are limits to the use of deadly force by police and civilians.

At one time (maybe some places still) good chance the cop would have just planted a gun on the vic.

For example:

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Victims_family_claim_Minnesota...

Ken

Print the post Back To Top
Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762437 of 1947871
Subject: Re: What if Zimmerman were a cop? Date: 3/27/2012 8:54 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
good chance the cop would have just planted a gun on the vic.

No gun on vic = No use of deadly force

Right?

Peter

Print the post Back To Top
Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762439 of 1947871
Subject: Re: What if Zimmerman were a cop? Date: 3/27/2012 9:00 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
"No gun on vic = No use of deadly force

Right?"

No. Vic could have other weapons, turn out to be martial arts pro, or whatever.

If a NYC cop I believe there would be a real investigation, and maybe a lot of media coverage, and a civil suit, etc.

Ken

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762456 of 1947871
Subject: Re: What if Zimmerman were a cop? Date: 3/27/2012 10:11 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_force

In the United States this is governed by Tennessee v. Garner, which said that "deadly force...may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."

Police would likely have training in martial combat so one would assume that they would fair better in a fight with Trayvon - that being said, if an officer was indeed having their head beat on the ground and thought they might lose their life, I could see where discharging their weapon would be justified.

More:
------------

In the United States, a civilian may legally use deadly force when it is considered justifiable homicide, that is to say when the civilian feels their own life, or the lives of their family or those around them are in legitimate and imminent danger. However, self-defense resulting in usage of deadly force by a civilian or civilians against an individual or individuals is often subject to examination by a court if it is unclear whether it was necessary at the point of the offense, and whether any further action on the part of the law needs to be taken.

-----------

I also found this interesting; and telling regarding how the police handled this situation:

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforceme...

As the final element, the department’s public information officer should contact the media before their representatives approach the agency.16 In the early stages of the investigation, the department should demonstrate that it wants to cooperate with the media. By informing the public through press releases and interviews, the agency shows that it is investigating the incident and that as information can be released, it will be. Departments should remember that the proverbial “no comment” often gives the impression that the police are hiding something.

...

Often, it is not a law enforcement shooting that generates negative consequences, but, rather, it is how the involved agency handles the incident that can foster and feed misperceptions.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762466 of 1947871
Subject: Re: What if Zimmerman were a cop? Date: 3/27/2012 10:25 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Hawkwin, thanks for the research.

if an officer was indeed having their head beat on the ground and thought they might lose their life,

This points up the huge difference between an armed policeman and arming every hotheaded joe-blow in the neighborhood.

1) An officer would have identified himself to Trayvon immediately and verified that T. was living in the neighborhood.

2) Though Zimmerman attacked an officer, in most cases this would not happen.

3) Even if attacked a 250 pound officer would not let a 140 pound kid beat him down.

4) Even if down an officer would not be out of his head and screaming for help.

Peter

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762474 of 1947871
Subject: Re: What if Zimmerman were a cop? Date: 3/27/2012 10:35 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Don't toss up strawmen

arming every hotheaded joe-blow

Zimmerman never fired his weapon at anyone prior - and he called the police dozens of times. Occums Razor suggest that Trayvon was the difference in this situation, not Zimmerman.


3) Even if attacked a 250 pound officer would not let a 140 pound kid beat him down.

Again, another strawman

What if the officer was a 5'4" 130lb woman? I would be willing to bet money that few officers are any where near 250 lbs - so don't go there.

4) Even if down an officer would not be out of his head and screaming for help.

Why not? Until you have been in a situation where you think you might actually die, you have no idea how you will react.

I served in the military and know many a story (though few personally) where all the training in the world did not prepare my peers to handle life and death situations. I've seen grown men cry simply at the thought that they were going to war.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Colovion Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762490 of 1947871
Subject: Re: What if Zimmerman were a cop? Date: 3/27/2012 10:58 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Would he have the right to kill Trayvon because they were fighting?

Per the Use of Force Continuum absolutely. The rule of thumb is that police can respond to the level of the person who is assaulting them +1 (that's what the courts have ruled, if you have a problem with that take it up with the courts.) If (again, IF) Travon was bashing Zimmerman's head onto the ground then it would indeed be well within the guidelines for a police officer to use deadly force in that instance. That's not even debatable.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: FCorelli Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762496 of 1947871
Subject: Re: What if Zimmerman were a cop? Date: 3/27/2012 11:05 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
Would he have the right to kill Trayvon because they were fighting?

Peter


According to cops, yes. Just use the words "WAIST BAND!" a lot in your report

Print the post Back To Top
Author: yosemitebean Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762502 of 1947871
Subject: Re: What if Zimmerman were a cop? Date: 3/27/2012 11:10 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Peter - What if Zimmerman were a cop?

--------------------------------------------------------

.....Could never happen because Zimmerman could never pass the physical. - Carol

Print the post Back To Top
Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762511 of 1947871
Subject: Re: What if Zimmerman were a cop? Date: 3/27/2012 11:21 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
1) An officer would have identified himself to Trayvon immediately and verified that T. was living in the neighborhood.

I'm all in favor of community watch patrols, but they're called "watch" for a reason.

This is what happens when an armed, "hotheaded joe blow," with little or no training, tries to act like policemen to fulfill some kind of cop fantasy.

Hey, Officer Colvion -- Admit it. This type of gung-ho cop wannabe is more of an annoyance to policemen than a help, right? They're ridiculously amusing at best and, at worst, a danger to everyone, even police officers.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: SaintPatrick1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762519 of 1947871
Subject: Re: What if Zimmerman were a cop? Date: 3/27/2012 11:30 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
"... a 140 pound kid..."

I think there are newer more accurate accounts of Trayvon's weight.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Colovion Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762546 of 1947871
Subject: Re: What if Zimmerman were a cop? Date: 3/27/2012 11:52 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Colvion -- Admit it. This type of gung-ho cop wannabe is more of an annoyance to policemen than a help, right? They're ridiculously amusing at best and, at worst, a danger to everyone, even police officers.

A bit annoying, sure, but the squeakly wheel gets the grease. I'm sure his neighbors didn't mind at all his vigilence on their behalf. At least he wasn't filing FOIA requests on everything the cops did and blaming them for being lousy cops. THAT is far worse IMHO.

Print the post Back To Top
UnThreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (13) | Ignore Thread Prev Thread | Next Thread
Advertisement