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Author: sashamore Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 5016  
Subject: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/29/2009 6:18 PM
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by now you know pretty much about my sordid past....but let me ask a
question...

if 2 people care deeply about each other, spend time together, but havent had sex in 10 years, is that an affair?

no sex since he had a major heart attack several years ago but we
really MATTER to each other...is that an affair?

if we talk on the phone every day about politics, the world, our work,
have dinner or lunch ro go to a movie once a week, and dont have sex,
is that an affair?

if we hold hands at the movies, are always there for each other (except
at 3am), have great concern about each other and each other's families,
really CARE about each other, is that an affair ?

if there is more loving kindness, more affection, and more good will
than there is in many longterm marriages, and no sex, is that an
affair?

this is a long-term relationship of confidence and concern....there are
some sad aspects to it, but we have so much affection, so much warmth,
are always so glad just to be able to spend time---even without sex,
what we have is so rare, so special, it goes way beyond an "affair"
this is a relationship of the brain and the heart, and i value it.
we both do.....and we have for 20 years.

and what about his wife? we are not friends-we run with different crowds, but we know each other (we used to live in the same building,
for god's sake......on the same elevator line, and exhusband a few
floors below me...that WAS a comic soap opera, believe me...
his wife and i have great mutual respect for each other....i think she has had an outside involvement for a long time, but they present a good
public face.....

so, is this an affair or an unfinished symphony


the world wants to know.....so do i......

sasha
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Author: anattafool Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3697 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/29/2009 6:53 PM
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if 2 people care deeply about each other, spend time together, but havent had sex in 10 years, is that an affair?

If his wife doesn't know, yes, it is an affair.

no sex since he had a major heart attack several years ago but we
really MATTER to each other...is that an affair?

If his wife doesn't know, yes, it is an affair.

if we talk on the phone every day about politics, the world, our work,
have dinner or lunch ro go to a movie once a week, and dont have sex,
is that an affair?


If his wife doesn't know, yes, it is an affair.



if we hold hands at the movies, are always there for each other (except
at 3am), have great concern about each other and each other's families,
really CARE about each other, is that an affair ?


If his wife doesn't know, yes, it is an affair.



if there is more loving kindness, more affection, and more good will
than there is in many longterm marriages, and no sex, is that an
affair?


If his wife doesn't know, yes, it is an affair.





so, is this an affair or an unfinished symphony


It is an affair. And you know it's an affair. You are in denial if you try to convince yourself otherwise.

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Author: XWordPhile Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3698 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/29/2009 8:37 PM
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I know this isn't a perfect answer, and won't satisfy everyone, but how would you feel if you were this man's wife? Would you consider it an affair if it were your husband who had a meaningful but nonsexual relation with another woman?

I've been asking myself this--and honestly I haven't come up with an answer. I'd be hurt, but would I consider it grounds for divorce? I don't know. If it were sexual, absolutely. But in this case--I just don't know.

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Author: Rael137 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3699 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/29/2009 9:31 PM
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Would you consider it an affair if it were your husband who had a meaningful but nonsexual relation with another woman?

I have a very close male friend who is married. He and I have a very close and loving (non-sexual) relationship. We have said "I love you" to each other.

I have occasionally worried to him that his wife (and others) may think there is something else going on. His wife knows how much time we spend together (a lot - we are work colleagues), what we talk about, and that (since he is a huggy person with his friends) we regularly hug. His wife is absolutely confident of his fidelity and that I'm not out to "get her man". I see her about 3-4 times a year socially with him & his family.

Is this an affair?

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Author: sashamore Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3700 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/29/2009 10:19 PM
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in my particular situation, i think she might be somewhat disturbed......he often tells her we've had dinner or whatever, but i think she thinks it's just a casual--sometimes colleagual--friendship. i think she knows there is someone in his life...she just doesnt know it's me....or that it's important.

i am sure they have some sort of arrangement...she is a fairly notable
person and is famous for her many "romances"....she is often away for
weeks at a time---for example she will be working on a project in italy
from labor day til after thanksgiving...he will visit for 3 long weekends....there is no way she would expect him to stay home and watch
tv, or go for a beer with the boys.....

the more i think about it, the more i think it would be okay w her
since it isnt sexual (anymore)....

rael: of course you're not having an affair...and you know that... your question was rhetorical, wasnt it........

yrs,
sasha

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Author: ishtarastarte Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3702 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/30/2009 12:47 AM
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Yes, it is an emotional affair. Those are the things he should be sharing with his wife. If he can't share them with his wife, he shouldn't be married to her.

My mother has been having a similar emotional affair with a man much younger than her for over 10 years. I've repeatedly told her what I think of the situation (i.e. I do not approve.)

For the record, at one point or another, I've been on three sides of the triangle. They all suck.

Ishtar

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Author: anattafool Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3703 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/30/2009 9:07 AM
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If it were sexual, absolutely. But in this case--I just don't know.
---------

And she says it was sexual once. So they are having an emotionally intimate relationship that once included sex. That is an affair. If the wife "knows" and has her own thing on the side, then why not be open and honest about it all? There are couples that have open marriages all the time.

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Author: anattafool Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3704 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/30/2009 9:09 AM
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I have occasionally worried to him that his wife (and others) may think there is something else going on. His wife knows how much time we spend together (a lot - we are work colleagues), what we talk about, and that (since he is a huggy person with his friends) we regularly hug. His wife is absolutely confident of his fidelity and that I'm not out to "get her man". I see her about 3-4 times a year socially with him & his family.

Is this an affair?
-----------

No. Because his wife knows. He isn't hiding it from her. She knows you. She knows that he has lines he won't cross due to his fidelity to her. There is nothing wrong with being friends with someone of the opposite sex. It's when you are doing something dishonest where you run into a problem. And this is an ethics board.

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Author: ishtarastarte Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3705 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/30/2009 9:18 AM
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And she says it was sexual once. So they are having an emotionally intimate relationship that once included sex. That is an affair. If the wife "knows" and has her own thing on the side, then why not be open and honest about it all? There are couples that have open marriages all the time.


That would be fine with me. Those things can be negotiated within a relationship, with all members being aware of the situtation.

It is when one member THINKS the relationship is monogamous and the other acts like they aren't that there is a problem.

If you can't call the wife and say, "hey, I'm doing X with your husband next week, you ok with that?" then it is an affair.

Ishtar

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Author: impolite Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3706 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/30/2009 9:37 AM
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Let's say, for the sake of arguement, that your relationship with him as it currently stands could be considered just a close friendship*:

I would not be comfortable with my husband having a friendship (close or otherwise) with a former affair partner. The relationship, whether you want to call it an affair or not, is at best inappropriate and at worst, the continuation of a long-term affair.

impolite
*I would consider it an emotional affair, as it is hidden from the wife

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Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3707 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/30/2009 10:53 AM
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if 2 people care deeply about each other, spend time together, but havent had sex in 10 years, is that an affair?

I would have to say that it has all the appearances of an affair (emotional, rather than physical at this point)

no sex since he had a major heart attack several years ago but we
really MATTER to each other...is that an affair?


This concerns me a little. If he was currently healthy and able to do so, would you still be having sex? If my husband was incapacitated and unable to have sex with me, he'd still be my husband. The emotional bond that makes us life partners would not go away just because he was unable to have a physical relationship.


and what about his wife? we are not friends-we run with different crowds, but we know each other (we used to live in the same building,
for god's sake......on the same elevator line, and exhusband a few
floors below me...that WAS a comic soap opera, believe me...
his wife and i have great mutual respect for each other....i think she has had an outside involvement for a long time, but they present a good
public face.....


This is a good quesiton. What about his wife? Has he spoken to her about the time he spends with you? If not, is it because he considers what you have to be an affair? You say that you think she has been having an affair as well. Has he said that? Public face aside, if both of them are honest with each other and both know what the other is doing, then it sounds as if theirs is a marriage of convenience. But I do think that it is paramount that you know whether or not she knows the depth of your relationship.

From my perspective: I have a lot of confidence in my relationship with my husband. His work as an advisor with a National Honor Society causes him to travel all over the country for various meetings. The nature of the society leads itself to more women members than men, so he has female students that he travels with and female friends that he sees whenever he travels. I do not have any concerns that he is having an affair with any of these women. When I accompany him on his trips (usually once or twice a year) he has no problems at all introducing me to them and including me in anything that they are doing. In short, I have no illusions that he is having an affair. At home he regularly has lunch with one of his coworkers, a single female. We are both friends with her and I have no concerns that he would do anything improper with her. If the day should come that he starts avoiding situations where I would come into contact with his female friends, or should it come about that I find he's having lunch/dinner with someone and doesn't appear to be above board with me about it, then I might be concerned, but for now I'm not.

If your friend does not feel that you are having an affair, then he should have no issues with letting his wife know that he cares for you and your welfare. If he does have reservations about letting her know the depth of your friendship, then I think it's safe to say that he, at least, considers you to be having an affair.

LWW

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Author: birdmanks71 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3708 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/30/2009 11:04 AM
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Am I the only one here that is amazed at the depth of delusion here?

if 2 people care deeply about each other, spend time together, but havent had sex in 10 years, is that an affair?

No... That's a marriage!!! I kid. I kid. That was about the only humor I could find here.

no sex since he had a major heart attack several years ago but we
really MATTER to each other...is that an affair?


To me, that reads like it WOULD be a sexual relationship except a physical impairment got in the way.

...have great concern about each other and each other's families...

I missed the part about having at intimate relationship with him expresses concern for his family (wife.)

...even without sex, what we have is so rare, so special, it goes way beyond an "affair" this is a relationship of the brain and the heart, and i value it. we both do.....and we have for 20 years.

Rhetorical question. If someone cheated on you, which is more likely to hurt worse, a one-night stand with someone they can't even remember or a "rare, special relationship of the brain and heart that goes on for 20 years"?

...his wife and i have great mutual respect for each other.

All evidence to the contrary.

in my particular situation, i think she might be somewhat disturbed......he often tells her we've had dinner or whatever, but i think she thinks it's just a casual--sometimes colleagual--friendship. i think she knows there is someone in his life...she just doesnt know it's me....or that it's important.

Ah, some honesty. So you admit that she doesn't know the extent of your relationship.

the more i think about it, the more i think it would be okay w her
since it isnt sexual (anymore)....


Goodbye honesty and too bad about the heart attack huh?

from labor day til after thanksgiving...he will visit for 3 long weekends....there is no way she would expect him to stay home and watch
tv, or go for a beer with the boys.....


Take note military members. It you deploy for three months and see your spouse for three long weekends during those three months, there is no way you can expect your spouse to stay home and watch TV or simply go out with friends. If you go for a whole year or more, you should save yourself the pain and file for divorce before you deploy.

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Author: ishtarastarte Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3709 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/30/2009 11:06 AM
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Take note military members. It you deploy for three months and see your spouse for three long weekends during those three months, there is no way you can expect your spouse to stay home and watch TV or simply go out with friends. If you go for a whole year or more, you should save yourself the pain and file for divorce before you deploy.


Well, the term "West Pac Widows" was coined for a reason. . .

Ishtar
(former squid)

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Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3713 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/30/2009 2:05 PM
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I wouldn't call it an affair. In fact, the connection I'm feeling between the two of you feels to me like "soul family". I don't believe in the one-and-only "soulmate" concept that a lot of people spend their lifetimes trying to find, but I would say that you two definitely are very close on the "soul family" tree.

:)

Love, Loving

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Author: sashamore Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3714 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/30/2009 3:40 PM
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THANK YOU for your opinions......especially about the non-ethics of
what i've been doing.......i appreciate your honesty.


((((thank you loving for your vision and your tender heart))))


and thank you to all the friends who did NOT respond because although
they disapprove, they didnt want to cast a stone......



sasha

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Author: sashamore Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3715 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/30/2009 3:45 PM
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did you hear the one about these two people who walked into a bar.....

one is 65 and a heart attack victim,
the other is 74 and is in lung cancer remission.......

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Author: AnfieldKop Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3716 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/30/2009 4:41 PM
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If his wife doesn't know, yes, it is an affair.

I agree.

If it isn't "an affair" you should have absolutely no problem informing you spouse as to is going on. If you actions are such that you are unable to tell your spouse EXACTLY what's going on, it is "an affair."

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3717 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/30/2009 5:55 PM
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.if we hold hands at the movies, are always there for each other (except
at 3am), have great concern about each other and each other's families,
really CARE about each other, is that an affair ?


==========
If his wife doesn't know, yes, it is an affair.



my favorite.


..but puzzles me you all are saying 'affair' like it's a Bad Thing



=

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Author: sashamore Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3720 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/31/2009 11:10 AM
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i would like to answer some questions:

Q (how does this) intimate relationship express concern for each others families...

A coincidentally we know each others kids because of their professions.
(their professional areas are different, but there is some overlap since they are each involved in a facet of theart/music/theatre/literary
world....we can empathise with their problems because we are both
of the same world..

Q - his wife and i have great mutual respect for each other...(huh?)
A - his wife and i are also in different facets of the art/music/theatre
literary world, and have profound respect for each others work...

Q - if he were healthy would you atill be having sex...
Y - i would like to appease you by saying no, but i can't....the answer
is yes, but remember we are 65 and 74 and it would probably be more
comforting than sexual.

and that's all she wrote.......

hester prynne

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Author: sashamore Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3722 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/31/2009 3:07 PM
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and finally......and truly, this is not a plea for sympathy, etc etc...
he is a heart patient, i am in cancer remission....we were there for
each other during those very hard times....

as the poet says, "...since feeling is first..."


sasha

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Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3724 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/31/2009 4:53 PM
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Okay, curiousity is getting the better of this cat. Where was his wife during his heart attack and subsequent recovery? I mean, I understand that you were there for him emotionally, but I'm guessing that the two of you didn't sit across the hospital bed from each other right after the attack. Or maybe you did? Anyway, my point being that you can tell a lot about how committed a person is to their spouse/significant other by how they react when said spouse/significant other is seriously ill or injured.

LWW

PS: glad to hear that you're still in remission!

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Author: sashamore Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3725 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 7/31/2009 5:57 PM
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very very good question, L....

interstingly enuf, as he was being wheeled into surgery he told his
wife to tell his secretary to get xyz to handle my case....(he is an
attorney, he was representing me in negotiating for a very important
van gogh) so of course when his secy told me ken was in the hosp
and undergoing open-heart, i knee-jerked: 'omigod, is he okay? i love
him so much' or some such....so the cat was then out of the bag, and darlingest secretary told me everyday when it was safe to visit.....

on another subject: i had (dare i say it) lunch w ken today...i asked
him why he never seems concerned about his or her extracurricular activities...he said,
"we have a dont ask, dont tell policy."

thank you for your continuing warmth and kindnesss,

yrs,
sasha

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Author: YewGuise Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3736 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 8/2/2009 11:01 AM
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...when it was safe to visit...

So, his wife has not abandoned him. You and she take turns.

He has two women, and you have half a man. Sounds like a good deal for him.

YG
(good at math)

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Author: sashamore Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3737 of 5016
Subject: Re: WHEN IS AN AFFAIR NOT AN AFFAIR Date: 8/2/2009 3:00 PM
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yer right...
i flunked algebra.


sash

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