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Author: nematoo Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 195083  
Subject: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/5/2001 2:18 PM
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Can anyone show me scripture that says that satan was ever an angel? I cannot find it. At one of the congregations I attended some years ago, we had a six-week study of this topic; and there is no scripture that says he was ever an angel.
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Author: iampunha Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39009 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/5/2001 2:26 PM
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A cursory search turns up this:

Revelation 12:9 - And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

That suggests to me that he was, though I think the idea of his being a fallen angel comes about much later and through translation.

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Author: KenpoKate Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39025 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/5/2001 3:31 PM
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Can anyone show me scripture that says that satan was ever an angel? I cannot find it. At one of the congregations I attended some years ago, we had a six-week study of this topic; and there is no scripture that says he was ever an angel

The "best guess" doctrine that Satan was an angel is drawn from Ezekiel 28:12 through 19 (Because the human King of Tyre obviously was not in Eden) among other passages. This passage describes a "guardian cherub" who is thrown down to earth from heaven. This image of being thrown down is connected with Satan in Luke 10:18 and also in the Revelation passage mentioned earlier in the thread.

We see Satan in a couple of places with abilities that seem to be uniquely angelic. In Job 1:6,7, we are told that Satan came before God with the angels, to ask permission to tempt Job. Standing in the presence of God was something the angels could do, but Isaiah could not (Isaiah 6). Again in Matthew 4:5-10, Satan seems to have the angelic ability to transport humans.

The cool thing about this doctrine is that it says that there is no evil in all creation that is as great as God's goodness.

Blessings!
-KenpoKate

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Author: jmls Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39066 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/5/2001 5:30 PM
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Dear nematoo,

NIV Isaiah 14:12-15 talks about how the "morning star" has been cast down to the earth. I think that this passage is weaker than the others mentioned (since Isaiah 14:3 says that this is addressed to the king of Babylon), but KJV Isaiah 14:12-15 uses the words "Lucifer, son of the morning."

This still doesn't answer the question (where it is written that Satan is an angel) but it supports the idea of being "cast down from heaven".

Best,

Lleweilun Smith

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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39067 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/5/2001 5:32 PM
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"Can anyone show me scripture that says that satan was ever an angel? I cannot find it. "

I think Job 1:6 is one of the verses that indicates Satan was an angel.

A more ambiguous reference is 2 Cor 11:13, where the issue is whether satan's disguise is as an angel or as an angel of light

Hope this helps.

God bless,

Rich

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Author: Pixieboy Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39091 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/5/2001 8:46 PM
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Satan is not an angel, but a Jinn (I think what Christians would call a demon). Iblis is the arabic name for Satan.

[al-Kahf 18:50.15] Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!



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Author: ericjh Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39150 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/6/2001 12:15 PM
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I have to agree with Rich, Job 1: 6 is pretty clear."On the day the angles came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them.
The group of angels presenting themselves were most likely the holy angels there needing the addition that Satan joined them.
EJ

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Author: ericjh Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39153 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/6/2001 12:29 PM
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Also Rev 12 :7
Michael and his angels fought against the dragon(Satan), the dragon and his angels fought back.

... he was hurled to earth and his angels with him.

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Author: ericjh Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39154 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/6/2001 12:40 PM
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Satan is not an angel, but a Jinn (I think what Christians would call a demon). Iblis is the arabic name for Satan.

Christians refer to these beings as either demons or fallen angels. Part of the 1/3 of the created angels that rebelled against God's authority. To a Christian the two names, demon and fallen angel are synonymous.

Therefore a 'Jinn' would be a fallen angel.

EJ


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Author: nematoo Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39587 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/9/2001 1:51 PM
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Revelation 12:9 - And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

That suggests to me that he was, though I think the idea of his being a fallen angel comes about much later and through translation.

~~**~~**~~**~~

This says that his angels were thrown down with him; but does not indicate that he was ever an angel himself.

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Author: nematoo Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39600 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/9/2001 3:04 PM
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The "best guess" doctrine that Satan was an angel is drawn from Ezekiel 28:12 through 19 (Because the human King of Tyre obviously was not in Eden) among other passages. This passage describes a "guardian cherub" who is thrown down to earth from heaven.

The scripture you speak of in Ezekiel is speaking of the physical king of Tyre. The metaphor used in "Eden" is indicative of a blessing. It is not the Eden; but a perfect garden of GOD ie: blessings from GOD. The verse that says, "On the day that your were created, they were prepared," indicates that it was not speaking of satan. On the day that the king of Tyre was created - conceived - GOD prepared great blessings for him.

In Job 1:6,7, we are told that Satan came before God with the angels, to ask permission to tempt Job.

Again, satan is with the angels, but not one of the angels. It does not say 'satan with the other angels' but 'satan...with the angels.'

Standing in the presence of God was something the angels could do, but Isaiah could not (Isaiah 6).

Angels were not the only beings which could stand before GOD, however. In regard to humans, you are correct, they could not; but other beings could. The cherubim and seraphim and other spiritual beings were in His presence; and all were allowed there, until the casting down of satan.

Satan was allowed to enter the presence of GOD until Jesus arose from the grave and banned him from going into the presence of GOD to accuse His children. Job is a great example of why satan would appear before GOD: he was there to accuse the humans who were no longer in direct contact with GOD because of Adam's sin. It is possible that he appeared there to get GOD to give up on His creation, so that satan could have the world in its totality.

The cool thing about this doctrine is that it says that there is no evil in all creation that is as great as God's goodness.

Actually, satan is as bad as GOD is good. His ability to deceive people into believing otherwise is the strongest tool he has. If he can get people to believe that GOD will forgive them no matter what, whether they repent or not, whether they are sorry or not, is exactly what he wants! "If GOD is all loving, He will not send people to hell" is the excuse used by many to not obey GOD. If he can make people believe that a loving GOD will just forget that His Son's blood was shed to be a covering, that He will forgive them in the end, then satan has won. Don't you get it? He is the greatest deceiver!

By believing that satan was ever an angel, is to believe that GOD had created less than perfection. Since we know that GOD is all good, where did the evil come from? Where was the temptation generated, if satan was tempted and fell from perfection? Who tempted him to go against GOD? Evil had to exist along side GOOD. GOD would not, could not, tempt anything He created to do evil. "GOD can not be tempted; neither tempts He any man."

That satan has certain 'powers' is not in question. Yet, an angel is never heard of as doing its own bidding; but is always spoken of as being sent, as a messenger. Who, then, sent satan to do evil? Satan cannot create life; but did create death. As GOD is good, so satan is evil. Satan is spoken of as being a liar from the beginning. This is the same term used in John 1:1 where it says "In the beginning was the Word..." It is 'from the remotest possibility.' Before 'time.' Before creation.

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Author: nematoo Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39603 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/9/2001 3:06 PM
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but it supports the idea of being "cast down from heaven".

Best,

Lleweilun Smith


~~**~~**~~**~~

Being cast down from heaven does not mean he was ever an angel; and I do understand that he was cast down. I know that is accurate. I just have a problem with him ever having been an angel.

Thanks,
Wanema

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Author: nematoo Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39632 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/9/2001 5:50 PM
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"A more ambiguous reference is 2 Cor 11:13, where the issue is whether satan's disguise is as an angel or as an angel of light..."

~~**~~**~~**~~

His disguise as a angel or an angel of light does not make him either. He can wear many disguises: look at the one in the garden - a serpent... He is a deceiver - actually, the deceiver... the great deceiver.
He disguises the lie as truth. He leads into temptation. He adds words to GOD's Word. example: "...you shall not die..." He lulls us into apathy.


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Author: nematoo Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39633 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/9/2001 5:54 PM
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[al-Kahf 18:50.15] Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!

~~**~~**~~**~~

wow...

I have never heard of this before. If Adam is actually meant here to be Christ Jesus, not the man Adam, then I would say it is correct.


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Author: nematoo Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39636 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/9/2001 6:11 PM
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I have to agree with Rich, Job 1: 6 is pretty clear."On the day the angles came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them.
The group of angels presenting themselves were most likely the holy angels there needing the addition that Satan joined them.
EJ


~~**~~**~~**~~

But look closely at the wording:

"6)Now there was a day when the sons of GOD came to present themselves before the Lord, and satan also came among them. 7)The Lord said to satan, "Whence have you come?" Satan answered..."

It does not say that satan was an angel; just that he came with the sons of GOD. If he were a son of GOD, why would he have had to be singled out in identity? The Revised Standard Version calls him "the adversary" in the 6th verse.

Which version uses "angel(s)" in this scripture? The King James does not; nor does the RSV. Nor is the word "angel(s)" used in Job 2:1. It says "the sons of GOD."

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Author: nematoo Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39637 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/9/2001 6:16 PM
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Also Rev 12 :7
Michael and his angels fought against the dragon(Satan), the dragon and his angels fought back.

... he was hurled to earth and his angels with him.


~~**~~**~~**~~

This, still, does not include satan with the angels in identity; but separates them from him - or him from them. They are not the same being(s).

Each time he is mentioned, he is a separate entity.

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Author: nematoo Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39639 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/9/2001 6:22 PM
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Christians refer to these beings as either demons or fallen angels. Part of the 1/3 of the created angels that rebelled against God's authority. To a Christian the two names, demon and fallen angel are synonymous.

Therefore a 'Jinn' would be a fallen angel.


~~**~~**~~**~~

No, not really. I am a Christian; and I am not the only one who does not consider a fallen angel the equivalent of satan. They are lost beings, yes; but they are not the same thing. They do not have the right to receive forgiveness from the Father, either; but they are not satan, and he is not them. They work together; but are not the same.

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Author: ericjh Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39649 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/9/2001 8:01 PM
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This is a patch to an inclusive study of Satan.
This is a comprehensive study. everything you wanted know

I would invite you to read the scripture verses and theory associated with them.
http://www.bible.org/docs/theology/satan/satano.htm

EJ


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Author: Pixieboy Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39653 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/9/2001 8:43 PM
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Nematoo:

That satan has certain 'powers' is not in question. Yet, an angel is never heard of as doing its own bidding; but is always spoken of as being sent, as a messenger

I agree with that. An angel does not have a will power of their own. They were created to do the bidding of God.

an-Nahl 16:50] They (Angels) fear their Lord above them, and do what they are bidden.

Therefore, as Iblis (Satan) was commanded to bow down to Adam and refused, he was not an Angel, but a Jinn.

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Author: ericjh Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39654 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/9/2001 9:07 PM
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Each time he is mentioned, he is a separate entity.
That is because He is a central figure and has a name.

God created all beings. Jesus it is recorded, was responsible for creation.
You have God, spirit beings (the hierarchy of angels), and man.
Satan is not God. Satan is a created spirit being, created before man, therefore he is not a man. He leads angels, he appears before God with the angels. He is an angel.
He was given free will and self-determination. He was given the choice submit or to rebel. You know the rest.

EJ


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Author: ericjh Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39655 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/9/2001 9:10 PM
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No, not really. I am a Christian; and I am not the only one who does not consider a fallen angel the equivalent of satan. They are lost beings, yes; but they are not the
same thing. They do not have the right to receive forgiveness from the Father, either; but they are not satan, and he is not them. They work together; but are not the
same.

Please share your hypothesis of who/what Satan is.

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Author: nematoo Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39673 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/10/2001 12:35 PM
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a quote from the passage link[emphasis mine]:

"In his commentary on Ezekiel, Feinberg writes:

The author cannot follow those views which inject without support a foreign and false mythology, a legendary atmosphere or a hypothetical ideal personality. It cannot be conceded that Ezekiel was following a free imagination which admittedly was not usual with him. Instead, he appeared to have the situation of his day in mind with his attention riveted upon the ruler of Tyre, the embodiment of the people's pride and godlessness. But as he viewed the thoughts and ways of that monarch, he clearly discerned behind him the motivating force and personality who was impelling him in his opposition to God. In short, he saw the work and activity of Satan, whom the king of Tyre was emulating in so many ways. Recall the incident in Matthew 16:21-23 where Peter was rebuked by our Lord Jesus. No sterner words were spoken to anyone in Christ's earthly ministry. But He did not mean that Peter had somehow become Satan himself; He was indicating that the motivation behind Peter's opposition to His going to Calvary was none other than the prince of demons. This appears to be a similar situation.…

… It must be repeated that the one addressed was not an ideal man expelled from Eden, some mythological figure popularly known or other individual, but the same monarch with whom the chapter began. But behind him stood one with whom he was compared. If Satan, who was far superior to Ithobal of Tyre, received just punishment for arrogating to himself divine prerogatives in the dateless past, then the ruler of Tyre could not escape the outcome of his defiance of the Lord. ..."

This is exactly my point.

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Author: nematoo Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39675 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/10/2001 12:44 PM
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"I agree with that. An angel does not have a will power of their own. They were created to do the bidding of God."

~~**~~**~~**~~

This is not exactly what I said. My statement was that angels are spoken of as doing the bidding of another. It is not to say they do not have a willpower of their own. Indeed, they do. It is, however, an enlightened willpower; and once the choice to follow satan rather than GOD is made, they cannot turn back. They are forever damned, from that one choice. They, having the full knowledge of GOD, cannot seek or obtain forgiveness.

BUT, in order to fall, they have to have a temptor. If satan was an angel, who was his temptor?


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Author: nematoo Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39677 of 195083
Subject: Re: Where did satan come from? Date: 1/10/2001 12:48 PM
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Please share your hypothesis of who/what Satan is.

~~**~~**~~**~~

Not yet...but I will. :-)

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