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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 744857  
Subject: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/16/2004 11:19 PM
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http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/793dgqvs.asp

JOHN KERRY wasted no time jumping on President George Bush about the unexpected shortage in flu vaccines this year. Why wasn't Bush paying attention? He should have done things differently. And of course Kerry had a "plan" to solve the whole mess.

If Kerry thinks he can solve the flu vaccine problem, he need look no further than his own running mate, trial lawyer John Edwards. Vaccines are the one area of medicine where trial lawyers are almost completely responsible for the problem. No one can plausibly point a finger at insurance companies, drug companies, or doctors. Lawyers have won the vaccine game so completely that nobody wants to play.
____________________________________________________

Sad but true. 100% of our flu vaccines come from two European companies because trial lawyers drove the US producers out of that business.

The rest of the article explains how that came to be. Part of it is the simple fact that when you supply a product to millions of people, a few are bound to have an adverse reaction and suffer harm. You can't make a vaccine (or anything else) that is 100% safe. But with lawyers run amok, that .000001% who are harmed can shut down production for everyone else.

There are a bunch of lawsuits pending over the claim that vaccines caused autism in some kids. This is junk science at its best but some innocent companies are going to get hurt big-time over it.

So if you have fever, aching joints, runny nose and feel awful all over, take two aspirin and call John Edwards in the morning.

--fleg
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Author: Stssgabs100 Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195112 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/17/2004 8:22 AM
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I think it's even worse than you mention, fleg9bo.
The US has only one company making many vaccines e.g: tetanus; measles, mumps,rubella; polio; chickenpox; tetanus-diptheria;... It's obviously risky to have only one maker as Chiron's difficulties show.
Part of the problem, of course, is the trial lawyers, part is that the government doesn't want to pay the full cost of making the vaccines and part is the regulatory problems, which make it hard to improve the manufacturing process.
I suppose it is possible to forecast the need for some vaccines fairly accurately, but it certainly isn't for influenza. There's always the possibility of a big financial loss.

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Author: ResNullius Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195123 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/17/2004 10:37 AM
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No one can plausibly point a finger at insurance companies, drug companies, or doctors. Lawyers have won the vaccine game so completely that nobody wants to play.

This is absolutely correct. Time and again, Congress has tried to update the vaccine laws to protect manufacturers to they will make childhood vaccines. Each time, the trial lawyers and friendly judges have gutted the defenses and made exceptions to the administrative payments. The long and short of it is that no company with any sense at all wants to make these life-saving medicines. Vaccines have inherent and unavoidable risks to a certain percentage of people, thus an never ending supply of plaintiffs for Edwards and his fellow whores.


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Author: CatherineCoy Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195128 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/17/2004 11:04 AM
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You can't make a vaccine (or anything else) that is 100% safe.

This may be true for synthetically derived vaccines, but there are ways to prevent or mitigate the suffering of the flu (for example) that are utterly benign except for the flu symptoms they prevent or eradicate. Pick up a copy of the October issue Energy Times (their special Immunity Issue) at your local health food store for several ways on how to do this.

Heh, lawyers may be successful in driving conventional medicine as a category of healing completely out of business. Now THAT would be something!

Here's an example. With all the talk about Vioxx--and the class actions that this drug is destined to birth--there are ways people can deal with arthritis that don't involve toxic synethetic drugs. But are We the People willing to do the things we must do to relieve our pain rather than pop a pill? I doubt it. We the People would rather sue.

http://www.nutricentre.com/Start/energy_times_mar03.aspx#1



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Author: CatherineCoy Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195129 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/17/2004 11:11 AM
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You don't want to get a flu shot, anyway.

http://www.mercola.com/2004/oct/16/mercury.htm

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Author: maracle Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195137 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/17/2004 11:40 AM
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There are a bunch of lawsuits pending over the claim that vaccines caused autism in some kids. This is junk science at its best but some innocent companies are going to get hurt big-time over it.

Believe me, it is their psycho parents who are convinced despite a mountain of evidence that it is the vaccines that are to blame. Not the lawyers tricking them into it.

At any rate, the reason we don't have a flu shot is because they keep screwing up and contaminating the supplies. Thats why there is a shortage.

Convenient that you can blame John Edwards when he has absoultely nothing to do with it. I guess from now on I'll blame George W. Bush for the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. After all, that was perpetrated by the president of their country, and Bush is the president of this country so they're both in it together really!

I like your logic. Dick Cheney stole millions from everyday Americans. After all, he was the head of an energy company, and Ken Lay was the head of an energy company, therefore Dick Cheney worked to bankrupt Enron.

I wonder who else we can apply this idiotic line of reasoning to?

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Author: ResNullius Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195178 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/17/2004 2:47 PM
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Pick up a copy of the October issue Energy Times (their special Immunity Issue) at your local health food store for several ways on how to do this.

Oh, CC, you must not be up on your news. The trial lawyers are starting to go after health food supplements with almost the same vigor as they go after drug companies. Fortunately for the supplement makers, they usually just go bankrupt and then start over again with a new name for their company.


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Author: JoelCairo Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195196 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/17/2004 3:33 PM
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If Kerry thinks he can solve the flu vaccine problem, he need look no further than his own running mate, trial lawyer John Edwards. Vaccines are the one area of medicine where trial lawyers are almost completely responsible for the problem. No one can plausibly point a finger at insurance companies, drug companies, or doctors. Lawyers have won the vaccine game so completely that nobody wants to play.

What a laugh. This article asserts it is the trial lawyers' fault, but the proof is obscure, and not compelling -- cases from the 50s and the 70s. If no fault liability was in force, then there would be evidence of it in lawsuits or claims paid for the 93 deaths from last year's flu vaccine cited by the article.

A far more likely reason for the decline of vaccine makers is the riskiness of the business proposition, even with a growing market. Since getting flu shots is voluntary, there can be wide fluctuations in the demand, despite government exhortation which started more than a decade ago and which has increased the number of flu shots given from about 26 million to over 80 million in the Bush/Clinton/Bush years.

I'm tickled that a decades-long concentration of market share in the vaccine business would be put down to tort law, instead of the more common market forces that are usually cited by those defending oligopolies.

But, then, this just follows in lock-step with Bush's mealy-mouthed answer to the question, which was disengaged and unknowledgeable,a nd showed how he cannot anticipate budding problems.

And he, like you and the Weekly Standard (and me at the outset) made a really stupid error -- assuming that Chiron was a British company, rather than an American company which bought a plant in the UK to make vaccine rather than build one in the USA.

Oh yes, and guess what? Chiron and Aventis seem to do fine making money from vaccines under the "horrendous" tort laws around the country.

What a lot of blather!

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Author: khalou Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195210 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/17/2004 4:32 PM
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Let's all just remember that when Cheney and Edwards met in debate, Cheney said, ",,well, I don't know anything about your record as a lawyer, but.."

Oh COME ON NOW!! :o)

He expects us to believe they didn't go through Edwards' former career with a fine toothed comb?

They just couldn't find anyting, that's all.

k

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Author: CatherineCoy Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195219 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/17/2004 5:14 PM
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Oh, CC, you must not be up on your news. The trial lawyers are starting to go after health food supplements with almost the same vigor as they go after drug companies.

If it's news, please provide a link. Thanks. I'm not saying it's not news; I'd just like to read it for myself.



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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195260 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/17/2004 8:34 PM
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Vaccines are the one area of medicine where trial lawyers are almost completely responsible for the problem.

Actually they have almost nothing to do with it.

Vaccine manufacturers have left the business because it is too unpredictable and they have ended up throwing away vast portions of their stock each year for the past many years.

Britain has five flu vaccine manufacturers. The US only has two major producers. That's not because of "trial lawyers", it's because of the profitability of the business, which has been iffy at best. The drug market is nearly $400 billion. Vaccines account for just $6 billion, and are not high margin.

According to the Health And Human Services Website:

HHS WEBSITE: A Report of the National Vaccine Advisory Committee said: "While current vaccine shortages do not appear to be liability related, the VICP should be maintained and strengthened as supported by scientific evidence, including continuing expansion of VICP to include additional vaccines as they are recommended for routine administration to children."
http://www.hhs.gov/nvpo/bulletins/nvac-vsr.htm#liability

One would think this administration could get its own Health and Human Services department to support the party line if it were indeed true.

100% of our flu vaccines come from two European companies because trial lawyers drove the US producers out of that business.

Well, uh. no. One of the manufacturers, Chiron, is an American manufacturer (headquartered in California) with a (badly run) plant in England. The other major manufactuer is Aventis Pasteur, and their plant is in Pennsylvania.
(A third, and also an American company, is Medimmune, although they only produce the nasal inhalant vaccine, which costs more and for which - until now - there has been a very small market.)

Part of the problem was that there were several plants producing (and distributing) infected vaccines in the 1980's and 1990's. The FDA tightened quality control standards, and that made it harder for companies to comply and still be competitive with newer, more efficient plants, so they dropped out of the business. The wholesale cost of vaccines has more than tripled since 1996; but it has still not been enough for companies to warrant the investment in the plants to make them, apparently.

This is a reasonable synopsis:
http://nytimes.com/2004/10/17/health/17flu2.html?hp&ex=1098072000&en=d2dfea7c2bb70b63&ei=5094&partner=homepage





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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195273 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/17/2004 9:46 PM
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Part of the problem was that there were several plants producing (and distributing) infected vaccines in the 1980's and 1990's. The FDA tightened quality control standards, and that made it harder for companies to comply and still be competitive with newer, more efficient plants, so they dropped out of the business. The wholesale cost of vaccines has more than tripled since 1996; but it has still not been enough for companies to warrant the investment in the plants to make them, apparently.

So you are saying that it wasn't the threat of lawsuits that caused companies to drop out of this business (and I am not entirely convinced - seems to me that there is some gearing up for new lawsuits regarding some childhood vaccinations), but rather additional regulation that increased their costs beyond what would allow a viable business that drove them out of this business?

What I wonder is what this additional regulation accomplished, besides driving some companies to decline to continue selling this product. Did it save lots and lots of lives? Or did it perhaps reduce the risk ever so slightly from (just throwing numbers here), say, 15 deaths per million doses to 14 deaths per million doses? And was the net saving of that extra person per millions life? Did it perhaps cause a many-fold increase in loss of life due to shortages such as we have this year?


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Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195306 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 9:43 AM
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{{Part of the problem, of course, is the trial lawyers, part is that the government doesn't want to pay the full cost of making the vaccines and part is the regulatory problems, which make it hard to improve the manufacturing process.
I suppose it is possible to forecast the need for some vaccines fairly accurately, but it certainly isn't for influenza. There's always the possibility of a big financial loss.}}



If ind it quite amusing when some commentators have said that the government needs to make flu vaccine production more profiutable and then in the next sentence say that the government should make sure that no company charges a market based rate for a flu vaccine.



c

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Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195311 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 9:53 AM
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{{Oh yes, and guess what? Chiron and Aventis seem to do fine making money from vaccines under the "horrendous" tort laws around the country.}}


I thought that when Chiron anounced that their flu vaccine had been pulled, that they only lost about a penny per share in earnings. How does that equate to them making much profit from the flu vaccine?


c

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195339 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 11:46 AM
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So you are saying that it wasn't the threat of lawsuits that caused companies to drop out of this business (and I am not entirely convinced - seems to me that there is some gearing up for new lawsuits regarding some childhood vaccinations), but rather additional regulation that increased their costs beyond what would allow a viable business that drove them out of this business?

No, I'm saying that HHS says it was not the threat of lawsuits. The Republican spin (and the title of this thread) is that somehow trial lawyers have something to do with the vaccine shortage, but since HHS is run by a Bush appointee, it seems credible to believe that they believe that legal liability is not an issue in this case.

It may have something - or a lot - to do with regulation. It may be that contaminated vaccines are not a danger to people, and that injecting bacteria into the elderly, frail, and chronically ill is exactly the right thing to do. It may be that political pressures (not laws, so far as I know, since the price has tripled in the past 8 years) to keep prices down made the business unattractive, and that the profit motive for these companies made it a simple business decision not to invest because of the enormous capital required.

I do find it amazing that somehow Canada (with its horrible health care system, as we all know) has managed to have enough to supply their own people, and that England (another awful health care system, surely) somehow has five suppliers, but what of that?

I also note that there are several countries with excess supplies, but which are not approved for distribution in this country (because they had not heretofore applied for such ability) which would love to dump some of their excess here - now. And that regulators are saying "they couldn't clear the hurdles in time." It may well be regulatory excess; frankly I would be interested in seeing the President "fast track" this, using his political muscle to pass temporary legislation allowing Canadian (and other) drugs to be distributed here, with appropriate warnings and as much oversight as seems reasonably prudent in this situation.

I'm sure, given his pharmacological political base that he would welcome the infusion of foreign supplies to meet the need, and that his past proclamations about the unreliability of foreign suppliers would lead him to flip-flop on the issue, as he has done so many times before on other things.

Times' a wastin'. I hope you're writing to him and asking him, and the two houses of Congress which his party controls, and the HHS which is run by his appointee to do something about it.
 


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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195357 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 1:04 PM
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<<So you are saying that it wasn't the threat of lawsuits that caused companies to drop out of this business (and I am not entirely convinced - seems to me that there is some gearing up for new lawsuits regarding some childhood vaccinations), but rather additional regulation that increased their costs beyond what would allow a viable business that drove them out of this business?>>

No, I'm saying that HHS says it was not the threat of lawsuits. The Republican spin (and the title of this thread) is that somehow trial lawyers have something to do with the vaccine shortage, but since HHS is run by a Bush appointee, it seems credible to believe that they believe that legal liability is not an issue in this case.

It may have something - or a lot - to do with regulation. It may be that contaminated vaccines are not a danger to people, and that injecting bacteria into the elderly, frail, and chronically ill is exactly the right thing to do. It may be that political pressures (not laws, so far as I know, since the price has tripled in the past 8 years) to keep prices down made the business unattractive, and that the profit motive for these companies made it a simple business decision not to invest because of the enormous capital required.

I do find it amazing that somehow Canada (with its horrible health care system, as we all know) has managed to have enough to supply their own people, and that England (another awful health care system, surely) somehow has five suppliers, but what of that?


Why do you think this is? - that Canada has suppliers, and that England has suppliers and we don't?

I also note that there are several countries with excess supplies, but which are not approved for distribution in this country (because they had not heretofore applied for such ability) which would love to dump some of their excess here - now. And that regulators are saying "they couldn't clear the hurdles in time." It may well be regulatory excess; frankly I would be interested in seeing the President "fast track" this, using his political muscle to pass temporary legislation allowing Canadian (and other) drugs to be distributed here, with appropriate warnings and as much oversight as seems reasonably prudent in this situation.

I'm sure, given his pharmacological political base that he would welcome the infusion of foreign supplies to meet the need, and that his past proclamations about the unreliability of foreign suppliers would lead him to flip-flop on the issue, as he has done so many times before on other things.

Times' a wastin'. I hope you're writing to him and asking him, and the two houses of Congress which his party controls, and the HHS which is run by his appointee to do something about it.


I think it is a good idea to allow some of those excess flu vaccines in. Changing policy in response to an emergency is much different than changing policy to pander to voters or changing policy to win a primary and then changing back to win the election.

The thing that I found most amazing about all this is that all the US suppliers exited this business on or after Jan 21, 2001. Bush is, of course, completely at fault as usual, so there cannot be any other possibility.


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Author: gurdison Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195373 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 2:12 PM
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<I think it is a good idea to allow some of those excess flu vaccines in. Changing policy in response to an emergency is much different than changing policy to pander to voters or changing policy to win a primary and then changing back to win the election.>


I agree in principle, but the cynic in me can see it another way.

With all of the news stories hyping the lack of vaccine available, a little bit (or in some areas a lot) of tension and uneasiness has developed on the subject. Millions of people who otherwise would never even think about a vaccine all of a sudden are desperate to get one of the limited supply of doses. This happened to a lesser degree last year too. There is a lot of irony in encouraging much larger numbers of people to get the vaccine at the same time that supply constraint issues keep coming up.

In an election that is once again 50-50, the vast majority of those uneasy feeling people are also voters. This has the potential to cut either way for Dubya. I feel it is valid to hold some people personally accountable for this latest screw up. It is not something that Dubya himself would be expected to stay on top of, but some of his people clearly dropped the ball. This can and does happen no matter who is president. The key is in how one responds to such situations. In the next two weeks if people perceive that potential foreign supplies will not be made available, he will lose some votes. If the consensus is that he is working hard to actively solve the problem, he may negate any negative effect and even gain a few votes.

Like many other problems in this country, this one seems to be structural in nature. On the one hand you have government health officials encouraging flu shots. OTOH, you have a disconnect among those whose job it is to monitor supply issues. If it is truly in the country's best interest to vacinate 150+ million people each year, then the effort to do so should be very well coordinated in all functional areas way in advance. The marketplace has provided little profit for companies to enter or to stay in this niche. If you produce 150 million doses and only 50 million get used, a producer is SOL. There is apparently not much profit even on the sold doses. The unused ones can leave lots of red ink.

There are specific lead times involved in producing a vaccine. Finding out that you have a serious problem in October is way too late in the game. The fact that 50% of the supply got knocked out in one fell swoop is embarassing and disgraceful, but not at all surprising.


B

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Author: Ibsulon Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195380 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 2:38 PM
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Okay, we can stop blaming thimerasol now.

"Autism was discovered in 1943, in American children, 12 years after ethyl mercury (thimerosal) was added to the pertussis vaccine. (The disease was not seen in Europe until the 1950s, after thimerosal was added to vaccines used there.)"

Do you realize that the cases of blindness, deafness, retardation, paralysis, and death, among the complications of pertussis, measles, mumps, polio, hepatitis, rubella, diptheria, and the other diseases that have been drastically reduced in the industrialized world, far outweigh the autism possibility, even if it exists?

Of course, people don't want to hear that the world is about managing risk, and that if we lose 1 out of 250 to autism it's better than losing 1 out of 20 to complications of disease. That's not even mentioning smallpox, which we eradicated because of vaccine.

You know, all it would take for many of these diseases is 100% compliance of a vaccine for one century. You and I aren't taking Polio and Smallpox vaccines because of this.
___

Sorry, some of my work is indirectly related to vaccinations (I've written code for a vaccination tracking software used in 8 states.) and I did the research for myself. As for vaccination lawsuits, could someone come up with a few of these? I'd be really surprised to see that they were a substantial portion of the problem, considering that we have a program in the United States called VICP which declares that the Government pays the costs of an adverse reaction rather than the corporations.

(Before anyone talks about personal responsibility, this fund was a major component in allowing parents to trust the vaccines, which is a major public health win.)

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Author: doubtit Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195381 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 2:49 PM
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Britain has five flu vaccine manufacturers. The US only has two major producers. That's not because of "trial lawyers", it's because of the profitability of the business, which has been iffy at best. The drug market is nearly $400 billion. Vaccines account for just $6 billion, and are not high margin.

If Kerry is elected President, we can expect the profitablity of drug companies to be LESS IFFY?

LMAO


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Author: maracle Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195385 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 3:08 PM
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. If no fault liability was in force, then there would be evidence of it in lawsuits or claims paid for the 93 deaths from last year's flu vaccine cited by the article.

Furthermore, and this is just speculation on my part, if the vaccine was going to get a lot of people sued I think the grocery stores would be unlikely to arrange those public clinics. They would get sued too after all...

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195397 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 4:47 PM
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If Kerry is elected President, we can expect the profitablity of drug companies to be LESS IFFY?

doubtit, you win the "knee jerk" award for the day.

The drug companies are indeed very profitable.

That is because they have, for the most part, shed lower profit items like "vaccine."

That is what "the market" likes them to do. I don't know "at what price" this becomes extraordinarily profitable for them so that they get back into the business, but at some price, people can't afford it either.

Some people think having "a flu epidemic" isn't a good idea, and that "the more people immunized the better", but they're probably all socialists.

You just cling to your "the market is always perfect" approach, right up until your kid's schoolteacher comes down with the flu and the entire class goes down because 1) it wasn't available or 2) it was too expensive, and then get back to me, OK?

Thanks.

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Author: BattleAxes Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195400 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 4:58 PM
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Just wait til the morning after pill the lawyers will force-feed America with Edwards and that traitor Kerry-Heinz in the White House.

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Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195402 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 5:01 PM
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{{You just cling to your "the market is always perfect" approach, right up until your kid's schoolteacher comes down with the flu and the entire class goes down because 1) it wasn't available or 2) it was too expensive, and then get back to me, OK?}}


And I keep hearing how it is just the Republicans who are scaremongering for this upcoming election.



c

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195413 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 5:25 PM
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I've never gotten a flu shot, am i gonna die? I've never seen such a big deal made of flu shots before, do most people get them? I kinda feel left out.

2828

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Author: arrete Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195415 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 5:27 PM
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I've never gotten a flu shot, am i gonna die? ... ? I kinda feel left out.
---------------------------------™
I'm sure Old Style or The Beast have theraputic effects that counteract the flu. It's just that most of us have side effects (retching) when partaking of such.

arrete


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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195418 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 5:34 PM
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I think all the posts saying "SADDAM DID NOT ATTACK US ON SEPT 11" are starting to weaken my immune system, i gotta go lie down.

2828

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Author: arrete Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195425 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 5:54 PM
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i gotta go lie down.
------------------------™
Have an Old Style. Or maybe that's the reason you need to lie down <g>.

arrete

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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195426 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 5:57 PM
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I've never gotten a flu shot, am i gonna die? I've never seen such a big deal made of flu shots before, do most people get them? I kinda feel left out.

Last year I got mine when I was at the tail-end of a cold, maybe a few more days left to go on it. I told the flu person and he said, no problem, your cold might last an extra day or so.

The cold came back much worse than it had been and lasted an additional three weeks--one of the worst colds I've ever had. That was my first and last flu shot.

--fleg

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Author: JoelCairo Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195435 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 6:24 PM
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I thought that when Chiron anounced that their flu vaccine had been pulled, that they only lost about a penny per share in earnings. How does that equate to them making much profit from the flu vaccine?

That has nothing to do with lawsuits. Rather its because they had to throw away all that they invested in generating the serum. But its actually quite a small number -- if my math is correct.

They have just under 190 million shares. One cent per share equals a loss of $1.9 million.

That is on a planned delivery of 50 million doses to the US market -- which is not the whole story, since they were also going to sell this elsewhere, at least in the UK. That's a loss of about 4 cents per shot, which is sold at $7-10 per shot.

Are you sure about your number? Seems awfully low. I'd certainly invest $2 million to get a return of $350-500M.

In any case, their next earninss announcement is in two days, so whatever they may or may not have said, they should have something more to say on Weds.

Joel


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Author: Hallucigenia Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195442 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 6:37 PM
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I've never gotten a flu shot, am i gonna die? I've never seen such a big deal made of flu shots before, do most people get them?

Flu can be lethal to the elderly, and to those with damaged immune systems, but the fit and healthy should be able to fight it off. Depending on which country you're in, flu shots are rec'd for the over 55's, or over 65's, and the immune-impaired.

As that NYT article suggests, the UK has deliberately split its vaccine order between 5-7 companies in the past precisely to avoid this kind of debacle. A highly decentralised free market does a great job of ensuring low-cost goods, not so good at ensuring security of supply.

OTOH, the big scare here is for a measles epidemic, thanks to certain newspapers running scare stories about the MMR vaccine causing autism without explaining the science behind the scare, which has subsequently been discredited. As long as vaccination rates exceed 85-90%, a population should be safe from epidemics, but the newspaper scare discouraged parents from getting their kids vaccinated, and rates dropped to 60% or less in the more New Agey parts of London. Kids have already died as a result - I hope the newspapers are proud.

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Author: doubtit Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195447 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 6:58 PM
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If Kerry is elected President, we can expect the profitablity of drug companies to be LESS IFFY?


Author: Goofyhoofy | Date: 10/18/04 4:47 PM | Number: 195397

doubtit, you win the "knee jerk" award for the day.

The drug companies are indeed very profitable.


I think Pfizer is the largest US Drug company.

In 2003, Pfizer made $1.6 billion profit on sales of $45 Billion => 3.6%

In 2003, Pfizer spent $7.1 billion on research and development.

Goofy ???

Do you think 3.6% profit is TOO MUCH ??? = VERY PROFITABLE ??

LMAO




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Author: jpbailey Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195455 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 7:34 PM
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The drug market is nearly $400 billion. Vaccines account for just $6 billion, and are not high margin.

True.

One would think this administration could get its own Health and Human Services department to support the party line if it were indeed true.

I think you forgot to include the first part of the quote:
Today, litigation again threatens stability of the vaccine program in the form of class action law suits, exemplified by those that have been filed involving vaccines that contain thimerosal. The VICP is currently understaffed to meet the new increased numbers of claims.

In fact, the entire report talks about the problem as being multifacted and needing a multifacted approach with short and long-range term solutions.

--John


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Author: arrete Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195464 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 8:01 PM
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Who are these people? Did CC wish them on us? We don't mind some off topic, but this is getting silly.

arrete

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Author: CatherineCoy Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195466 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 8:06 PM
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In fact, the entire report talks about the problem [shortage of vaccines] as being multifacted and needing a multifacted approach with short and long-range term solutions.

Who are these people? Did CC wish them on us?

Personally, I'd like to see the whole drug cartel crash and burn. In fact, it seems to be unraveling daily. The sooner, the better. When Big Pharma bites the dust, even if only in a minimal way, consumers will be forced to confront the obvious: your health is in your hands, not in pills, shots and IV solutions being churned out by Big Pharma as fast as they can do so.



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Author: arrete Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195468 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 8:16 PM
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Who are these people? Did CC wish them on us?
Personally, I'd like to see the whole drug cartel crash and burn. In fact, it seems to be unraveling daily. The sooner, the better.

That doesn't explain why these people are on this board. I know we have off-topic problems, but I'm willing to bet we don't want to be turned into Hotel California with flaxseed.

We are not the Big Pharma board.

arrete


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Author: tjscott0 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195483 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/18/2004 8:56 PM
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CC sez:

Personally, I'd like to see the whole drug cartel crash and burn. In fact, it seems to be unraveling daily. The sooner, the better. When Big Pharma bites the dust, even if only in a minimal way, consumers will be forced to confront the obvious: your health is in your hands, not in pills, shots and IV solutions being churned out by Big Pharma as fast as they can do so.

You're dreaming if you think the majority of folks will give up their fritos, burgers & beer to eat flax seed & drink green tea.

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195531 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/19/2004 6:24 AM
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We are not the Big Pharma board.

No we are not, and truth be told I find much of what is said about the Big Pharma Conspiracy so silly and poorly supported by links that are not foaming at the mouth that I've stopped replying to them. However, we are also not the Politics Board, yet I would venture a guess that the majority of the REHP posts are about politics. Retiring simply implies getting to the point where you can financially quite your job and your life after that. It is kind of hard to pinpoint something as OT, given the volume of things that will affect the retiree.

IP



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Author: tutone Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 195572 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/19/2004 10:59 AM
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I think all the posts saying "SADDAM DID NOT ATTACK US ON SEPT 11" are starting to weaken my immune system, i gotta go lie down.

2828


I hear ya. Oh, and by the way, "THE TALIBAN DID NOT ATTACK US ON SEPT 11" either. That was the looney left's chant back when we took action in Afghanistan. Of course now that that particular action looks like a success they all claim to have been behind it at the time.

tutone


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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 196344 of 744857
Subject: Re: Where's my flu shot, John Edwards? Date: 10/22/2004 2:59 PM
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The drug companies are indeed very profitable.

What metric are you using for "very" profitable? What percent profit would you consider "very"?

Here is a post of mine from exactly one month ago on this same issue - http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=21346317


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