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Author: tgrmn Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 734557  
Subject: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/22/2013 9:45 AM
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http://boards.fool.com/2-identical-twins-had-sex-30553047.as...
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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672611 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/22/2013 9:48 AM
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wow...you've been sleeping....this has been all over the boards, including this one, for days...



t

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Author: 307wolverine Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672612 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/22/2013 9:58 AM
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wow...you've been sleeping....this has been all over the boards, including this one, for days

Be fair. He's a truck driver. Probably doing this from a truck stop.

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Author: tgrmn Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672616 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/22/2013 10:03 AM
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"wow...you've been sleeping....this has been all over the boards, including this one, for days..." t
.......................

Busy, not sleeping, I had to skim the 2,100 posts to catch up.

Los siento amigos y amigas.

I survived Chicago and I'm in Indiana now. Frozen, foogy...
On my way to Miami Beach now.

Gonna walk South Beach again! More Cuban food. YUM!!!

Chicago people was nice to me.

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672618 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/22/2013 10:10 AM
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"I survived Chicago and I'm in Indiana now. Frozen, foogy...
On my way to Miami Beach now. Gonna walk South Beach again! More Cuban food. YUM!!!"- trgrmn

------------------


Could you stop in Middle Tennessee and pick me up and take me with you?

Art

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672619 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/22/2013 10:14 AM
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Oh yeah, those two guys are both a couple of sorry no good shiftless good for nothing losers. They should both pay child support. 50% each.

They both need to be castrated too.

Art

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Author: tgrmn Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672621 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/22/2013 10:18 AM
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"Could you stop in Middle Tennessee and pick me up and take me with you?" Art
......................

I would if you weren't so far east. ;)

I'm on a mission. bally bally, undelay, etc.

65, 75, Florida turnpike, 95.

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Author: BenHurJudah Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672624 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/22/2013 10:26 AM
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Oh yeah, those two guys are both a couple of sorry no good shiftless good for nothing losers. They should both pay child support. 50% each.

They both need to be castrated too.


Why? This was meant to happen. Their fate. They are not responsible for what they did and exercised no free will. They really had no other choice but to do what they did. It was all preordained.

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Author: 307wolverine Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672626 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/22/2013 10:29 AM
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Why? This was meant to happen. Their fate. They are not responsible for what they did and exercised no free will. They really had no other choice but to do what they did. It was all preordained.

I certainly see the duality angle, but not quite clear on the separation part yet.

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672635 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/22/2013 10:58 AM
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I certainly see the duality angle, but not quite clear on the separation part yet.

Legs?

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672645 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/22/2013 12:18 PM
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"I certainly see the duality angle, but not quite clear on the separation part yet." - wolverine


The two twin brothers are angry with each other. That is a kind of separation. The little girl will grow up without the input of her father(s) who resent having to pay child support to take care of her. She will spend the rest of her life wondering why her daddy(s) didn't love her... that is also a form of experiencing separation.

And then there is the separation of the twins from the mother of their child. And the grandmother who is anxious about the twins fighting with one another.

It will probably cause "duality and separation" for as long as that child lives. One thing about duality and separation, you don't have to go looking for it, it will find you all on it's own. It seems to be inescapable.

Art

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Author: namkato Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672676 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/22/2013 3:48 PM
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Why? This was meant to happen. Their fate. They are not responsible for what they did and exercised no free will. They really had no other choice but to do what they did. It was all preordained.
============================================================

It SEEMS like the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.
It SEEMS like the earth is flat.
It SEEMS like we have free will.

http://www.amazon.com/Free-Will-Sam-Harris/dp/1451683405/ref......

"In this elegant and provocative book, Sam Harris demonstrates—with great intellectual ferocity and panache—that free will is an inherently flawed and incoherent concept, even in subjective terms. If he is right, the book will radically change the way we view ourselves as human beings."

—V. S. Ramachandran, Director of the Center for Brain and Cognition, UCSD, and author of The Tell-Tale Brain

"Brilliant and witty—and never less than incisive—Free Will shows that Sam Harris can say more in 13,000 words than most people do in 100,000."

—Oliver Sacks

"Free will is an illusion so convincing that people simply refuse to believe that we don’t have it. In Free Will, Sam Harris combines neuroscience and psychology to lay this illusion to rest at last. Like all of Harris’s books, this one will not only unsettle you but make you think deeply. Read it: you have no choice."—Jerry A. Coyne, Professor of Ecology and Evolution, University of Chicago, and author of Why Evolution Is True

"Many say that believing that there is no free will is impossible—or, if possible, will cause nihilism and despair. In this feisty and personal essay, Harris offers himself as an example of a heart made less self-absorbed, and more morally sensitive and creative, because this particular wicked witch is dead."

—Owen Flanagan, Professor of Philosophy, Duke University, and author of The Really Hard Problem

"If you believe in free will, or know someone who does, here is the perfect antidote. In this smart, engaging, and extremely readable little book, Sam Harris argues that free will doesn’t exist, that we’re better off knowing that it doesn’t exist, and that—once we think about it in the right way—we can appreciate from our own experience that it doesn’t exist. This is a delightful discussion by one of the sharpest scholars around.”

—Paul Bloom, Professor of Psychology, Yale University, and author of How Pleasure Works

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672686 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/22/2013 4:58 PM
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It SEEMS like the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.
It SEEMS like the earth is flat.
It SEEMS like we have free will.


It SEEMS like you've got a working brain.

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Author: BenHurJudah Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672688 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/22/2013 5:02 PM
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Right, life is just an illusion. It just seems like we have free will but in reality there is a puppet master, who was created by a cosmic fart which just happened randomly and suddenly and from which was created the most complex universe and marvelous systems, and laws known to man, who was merely collateral damage from the fart shock. The Great Farter created something from nothing because he was all that there was before he decided to rip a big one. Actually since it was a wet fart, man began in a somewhat slimy state but after oxygen and evaporation and sunlight came into being from The Great Farter's remarkable force, man began to become more solid but still somewhat stinky. But that's what The Great Farter wanted as he did not want his creation to have free will, but something much more important to him - that his creation had the illusion of their own free will. He was in control of everything in the universe and created this just to amuse himself.

You and Art have to be joking.

You are making life soooo Zen.

A man is in a dark room but there is a small hole in the wall through which he observes the world and attempts to determine what causes what he sees, is there order, is there cause and effect? As he looks through the small hole, he sees the head of a cat pass by. A few seconds later, he sees the tail of a cat pass by. He doesn't really know what a cat is but he concludes because every time the head passes, it is followed a few seconds later by a tail that the head causes the tail and he is beginning to understand what life is all about.

But with such a narrow scientific repeatable phenonemom, what the man did not see was the whole, he only saw parts of the whole and missed that this was just a cat walking by. Thus, a paradigm of man's limits to scientific observation and his understanding the meaning and cause of what he sees was established, all by the design of the The Great Farter.

I know this because I passed through the holy graph universe after a near defication experience and the giant fart creator revealed himself to me as I reached, or so I was led to believe (you sneaky old fart) a state of nirvanic self awareness - Maslow's highest point of the hierarchy - as the marionette strings on my body were made visible. It was then that I realized that everything that happens in the universe is predetermined and the great farter in the sky had every living being's fate in his hands and it doesn't really matter what we believe.

As a bonus, he sent out a few to confuse everyone else. Their mission was to concoct very sophisticated but mysterious and esoteric explanations of of why we don't have free will when it appears so obvious to all that we do.

The Old Fart is having the fun of his life sitting back watching his creation argue about who has the greatest insight into the nature of man and the universe and from where it came.

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Author: BenHurJudah Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672689 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/22/2013 5:04 PM
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lol

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672690 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/22/2013 6:32 PM
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"Free will is an illusion so convincing that people simply refuse to believe that we don’t have it. In Free Will, Sam Harris combines neuroscience and psychology to lay this illusion to rest at last."
-----------------------------


I've been singing this same mantra for years. Getting anyone to believe it is worse than pulling teeth.

I suspect we have to believe that we have free will so we will evoke the emotion necessary to holistically imprint on the soul the lessons it came here to learn.

If we absolutely knew that there was no free will we would have no emotional response to anything. We'd just shrug our shoulders and say "oh well, it was all preordained so there's no use in getting all worked up about it."

Emotion and memory are intimately connected.

Emotions Make the Memory Last
Jan 31, 2005 – "Ever wonder why some memories can stay vivid for years while others fade with time? The answer is emotion."
http://www.webmd.com/balance/news/20050131/emotions-make-mem...



Art

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Author: 307wolverine Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672691 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/22/2013 7:05 PM
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I've been singing this same mantra for years. Getting anyone to believe it is worse than pulling teeth

That's because it's BS.

The poster that posted the tongue-in-cheek argument earlier in this thread about how the two men were preordained to get busy with this woman illustrates how absurd your point is. By your thought process these men were poor, unfortunate victims of outside forces beyond their control. No personal responsibility. You even wanted them castrated. Why? If what they did was beyond their control, why punish them? Why punish anyone if they were preordained to murder, steal, etc....?

If you were to argue that we all have varying ranges of behavior, I could accept that. No matter how hard I try I will never be able to hit a Major League curve ball. That is forever outside my range of abilities. I can, however, choose to do many other things.

Some of us have wider ranges than others. I get that. But according to your beliefs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQZnEPRYyUU

If God wanted him to climb that obstacle, he woulda miracled his a$$ up there.

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Author: 307wolverine Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672695 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/22/2013 7:34 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI

Posting that youtube clip got me in a Full Metal Jacket mood. FMJ is my fav movie of all-time. This is my fav clip from the film.

I spent my first enlistment with the USMC in Camp LeJeune 1976-78. About 1/4 of the guys E-4 and below were combat vets and everyone E-5 and above had at least one tour under their belt. I met some real crazy mofos there. This guy woulda fit right in.

One guy told me it was just like shooting deer only it was people.

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672705 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/23/2013 8:19 AM
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"That's because it's BS." - wolverine


Nope, it's not. We are all just actors in a play.

The education of the soul is too important to leave it up to chance.

Art

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Author: mcbdds Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672712 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/23/2013 10:06 AM
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"That's because it's BS." - wolverine
Nope, it's not. We are all just actors in a play.
Art

I suspect your play is Waiting for Godot.

mcb

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Author: namkato Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672867 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/24/2013 9:33 PM
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The Bible

(from the New International and King James Versions)

Man’s life is not his own. Man does not direct his own steps. Jeremiah 10:23 A man’s steps are directed by the Lord. Proverbs 20:24

God is spirit. John 4:24 In him we live and move and have our being. Acts 17: 24-27

Whoever lives by the truth .. sees plainly that whatever he has done has been done through God [the Spirit]. John 3:21 … God determines his steps. Psalm 1 6:9

I [Jesus] do nothing on my own. John 8:28 My teaching is not my own. John 7:16 No one can come to me unless the Father draws him. John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him. John 6:65

God … gives all men life and breath and everything else. Acts 17: 24-27

There are different kinds of abilities … different kinds of service … different kinds of working, but the same God directs all of them in all men. Corinthians 12:6 Many are the plans in a man’s heart, but it is God’s purpose that will prevail. Proverbs 19:21

God’s choosing is not the result of your works [your good or bad behaviour] but simply his choice … Romans 9:10-13

Look at the birds and the flowers. What do they do to be what they are or get what they get? Matthew 6:25-33

Scripture says, “I [God] raised you up for only one purpose, to display my power in you …” Romans 9:17 I am the Lord and there is no other. I create light, darkness, peace, and evil. I do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

Whoever believes … streams of living water will flow within him. This means Spirit. John 7:38-39 No one can enter the kingdom of God unless … as water and Spirit. John 3:5

Don’t you know that God’s spirit lives within you? Corinthians 3:16

When you pray do not pray in the churches and stand on street corners … go to your room … close the door … do not babble … Matthew 6:5-8 Be still, and know that I am God. Psalm 46:10

Streams of living water [Spirit] … flow within. John 7:38-39 There is a river … Psalm 46: 4 the river of life … Revelation 22:1-2 Anyone who is thirsty, … let him take the free gift of the water of life. Revelation 22:17

They will see God’s face [Spirit] and his name will be on their foreheads Revelation 22:4

The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it; for it is established upon the waters [Spirit]. Psalm 24:1-2

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Author: namkato Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672869 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/24/2013 9:39 PM
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It SEEMS like you've got a working brain.
================================================

Which of these people also did not have working brains?

Einstein? Darwin? Jefferson? Lincoln? Nietzsche? Schopenhauer? Spinoza? Twain? Voltaire? Hume, Mill, Locke, B. F. Skinner?


The extent to which some of our most famous philosophical and political progenitors, including Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln, were skeptical about contra-causal free will is not widely known. This needs fixing. To render naturalism a bit more respectable, what follows is an unabashed appeal to Celebrity-Authority: Some well-respected, well-informed, and in this case famous people doubted the idea that human beings are causally privileged over the natural world; so, we should doubt it too. This of course doesn't count as an argument, but it might give believers in what philosophers call libertarian free will – perhaps the majority in the Western world – some pause. And just because those quoted below are smart people who challenge conventional wisdom in remarkably similar ways, given their geographical and temporal diversity, doesn’t mean they’re wrong. You, as they did, should make up your mind on the merits, carefully considering not just your gut feelings, but your actual phenomenology of choice (as did Hume), the actual evidence from science (as did Einstein and Darwin), and the actual twisted logic of what it would mean to be a self-caused self (as did Nietzsche and many other philosophers). If you’re already in agreement with what the French philosophes, Jefferson, Lincoln, Darwin, Einstein, and Mark Twain said about free will, never mind, just enjoy the ride, which is more or less in alphabetical, not chronological, order. Thanks to attorney Bob Gulack for bringing several of these quotes to my attention.

Clarence Darrow: "Every one knows that the heavenly bodies move in certain paths in relation to each other with seeming consistency and regularity which we call [physical] law. ... No one attributes freewill or motive to the material world. Is the conduct of man or the other animals any more subject to whim or choice than the action of the planets? ... We know that man's every act is induced by motives that led or urged him here or there; that the sequence of cause and effect runs through the whole universe, and is nowhere more compelling than with man." Quoted in Lecture Notes on Free Will and Determinism by Norman Swartz.

Charles Darwin: “…one doubts existence of free will [because] every action determined by heredity, constitution, example of others or teaching of others.” “This view should teach one profound humility, one deserves no credit for anything…nor ought one to blame others.” From Darwin’s notebooks, quoted in Robert Wright, The Moral Animal, pp. 349-50.

Baron D’Holbach: “The inward persuasion that we are free to do, or not to do a thing, is but a mere illusion. If we trace the true principle of our actions, we shall find, that they are always necessary consequences of our volitions and desires, which are never in our power. You think yourself free, because you do what you will; but are you free to will, or not to will; to desire, or not to desire? Are not your volitions and desires necessarily excited by objects or qualities totally independent of you?” From Good Sense Without God.

Albert Einstein: "If the moon, in the act of completing its eternal way around the earth, were gifted with self-consciousness, it would feel thoroughly convinced that it was traveling its way of its own accord on the strength of a resolution taken once and for all. So would a Being, endowed with higher insight and more perfect intelligence, watching man and his doings, smile about man’s illusion that he was acting according to his own free will." From a piece written as a homage to the Indian mystical poet Rabindranath Tagore, quoted here.

And: “I do not believe in free will. Schopenhauer's words: 'Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills,' accompany me in all situations throughout my life and reconcile me with the actions of others, even if they are rather painful to me. This awareness of the lack of free will keeps me from taking myself and my fellow men too seriously as acting and deciding individuals, and from losing my temper.” From "My Credo" .

And: "I agree with your remark about loving your enemy as far as actions are concerned. But for me the cognitive basis is the trust in an unrestricted causality. 'I cannot hate him, because he must do what he does.' That means for me more Spinoza than the prophets." From a letter to Michele Besso quoted here.

And: "Human beings, in their thinking, feeling and acting are not free agents but are as causally bound as the stars in their motion." From his address to the Spinoza Society in 1932.

Thomas Jefferson: "I should . . . prefer swallowing one incomprehensibility rather than two. It requires one effort only to admit the single incomprehensibility of matter endowed with thought, and two to believe, first that of an existence called spirit, of which we have neither evidence nor idea, and then secondly how that spirit, which has neither extension nor solidity, can put material organs into motion." From a letter to John Adams on 3/14/1820.

Samuel Johnson: “All theory is against free will; all experience is for it.”

Abraham Lincoln: “The human mind is impelled to action, or held in rest by some power, over which the mind itself has no control.” from Handbill Replying to Charges of Infidelity.[1] “We often argued the question, I taking the opposite view.... I once contended that man was free and could act without a motive. [Lincoln] smiled at my philosophy, and answered that it was impossible, because the motive was born before the man.... He defied me to act without motive and unselfishly; and when I did the act and told him of it, he analyzed and sifted it to the last grain. After he had concluded, I could not avoid the admission that he had demonstrated the absolute selfishness of the entire act.” From Herndon, "Analysis of the Character of Abraham Lincoln," Abraham Lincoln Quarterly 1 (Dec. 1941): 411; Herndon and Weik, Abraham Lincoln, 2:148, 306, quoted in Abraham Lincoln and the Doctrine of Necessity by Allen C. Guezlo (a most interesting, well-referenced paper).

Friedrich Nietzsche: "The causa sui is the best self-contradiction that has been conceived so far; it is a sort of rape and perversion of logic. But the extravagant pride of man has managed to entangle itself profoundly and frightfully with just this nonsense. The desire for ‘freedom of the will’ in the superlative metaphysical sense, which still holds sway, unfortunately, in the minds of the half-educated; the desire to bear the entire and ultimate responsibility for one’s actions oneself, and to absolve God, the world, ancestors, chance, and society involves nothing less than to be precisely this causa sui and, with more than Baron Münchhausen’s audacity, to pull oneself up into existence by the hair, out of the swamps of nothingness." Quoted in “The Buck Stops – Where?”, an interview with philosopher Galen Strawson.

Bertrand Russell: “When a man acts in ways that annoy us we wish to think him wicked, and we refuse to face the fact that his annoying behavior is the result of antecedent causes which, if you follow them long enough, will take you beyond the moment of his birth, and therefore to events for which he cannot be held responsible by any stretch of imagination… When a motorcar fails to start, we do not attribute its annoying behavior to sin, we do not say, you are a wicked motorcar, and you shall not have any more gasoline until you go.” (Richard Dawkins takes exactly this line at Edge.Org in his case against retribution.)

Arthur Schopenhauer: “You are free to do what you want, but you are not free to want what you want.”

Baruch Spinoza: “The mind is determined to this or that choice by a cause which is also determined by another cause, and this again by another, and so on ad infinitum. This doctrine teaches us to hate no one, to despise no one, to mock no one, to be angry with no one, and to envy no one.”

Mark Twain: “Where are there are two desires in a man's heart he has no choice between the two but must obey the strongest, there being no such thing as free will in the composition of any human being that ever lived." - in Eruption. See also and especially “What Is Man?” for Twain's completely naturalistic view on human nature.

Voltaire: “Now, you receive all your ideas; therefore you receive your wish, you wish therefore necessarily. The word "liberty" does not therefore belong in any way to your will….The will, therefore, is not a faculty that one can call free. A free will is an expression absolutely void of sense, and what the scholastics have called will of indifference, that is to say willing without cause, is a chimera unworthy of being combated.” From The Philosophical Dictionary.

There are many other free will skeptics yet to be quoted, for instance LaMettrie, Hume, Mill, Locke, B. F. Skinner, and of course most modern-day philosophers and scientists who have weighed in on the topic, some of whom are mentioned here. If you come across any pearls of skeptical wisdom on free will by well-known thinkers, please be in touch.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672871 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/24/2013 9:45 PM
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what sort of idiot goes around spouting bi-bull verses? usually one without a brain of their own that works.


t.

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Author: namkato Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672883 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/24/2013 11:39 PM
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what sort of idiot goes around spouting bi-bull verses? usually one without a brain of their own that works.


t.
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Which of these people also did not have working brains?

Einstein? Darwin? Jefferson? Lincoln? Nietzsche? Schopenhauer? Spinoza? Twain? Voltaire? Hume, Mill, Locke, B. F. Skinner?


The extent to which some of our most famous philosophical and political progenitors, including Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln, were skeptical about contra-causal free will is not widely known. This needs fixing. To render naturalism a bit more respectable, what follows is an unabashed appeal to Celebrity-Authority: Some well-respected, well-informed, and in this case famous people doubted the idea that human beings are causally privileged over the natural world; so, we should doubt it too. This of course doesn't count as an argument, but it might give believers in what philosophers call libertarian free will – perhaps the majority in the Western world – some pause. And just because those quoted below are smart people who challenge conventional wisdom in remarkably similar ways, given their geographical and temporal diversity, doesn’t mean they’re wrong. You, as they did, should make up your mind on the merits, carefully considering not just your gut feelings, but your actual phenomenology of choice (as did Hume), the actual evidence from science (as did Einstein and Darwin), and the actual twisted logic of what it would mean to be a self-caused self (as did Nietzsche and many other philosophers). If you’re already in agreement with what the French philosophes, Jefferson, Lincoln, Darwin, Einstein, and Mark Twain said about free will, never mind, just enjoy the ride, which is more or less in alphabetical, not chronological, order. Thanks to attorney Bob Gulack for bringing several of these quotes to my attention.

Clarence Darrow: "Every one knows that the heavenly bodies move in certain paths in relation to each other with seeming consistency and regularity which we call [physical] law. ... No one attributes freewill or motive to the material world. Is the conduct of man or the other animals any more subject to whim or choice than the action of the planets? ... We know that man's every act is induced by motives that led or urged him here or there; that the sequence of cause and effect runs through the whole universe, and is nowhere more compelling than with man." Quoted in Lecture Notes on Free Will and Determinism by Norman Swartz.

Charles Darwin: “…one doubts existence of free will [because] every action determined by heredity, constitution, example of others or teaching of others.” “This view should teach one profound humility, one deserves no credit for anything…nor ought one to blame others.” From Darwin’s notebooks, quoted in Robert Wright, The Moral Animal, pp. 349-50.

Baron D’Holbach: “The inward persuasion that we are free to do, or not to do a thing, is but a mere illusion. If we trace the true principle of our actions, we shall find, that they are always necessary consequences of our volitions and desires, which are never in our power. You think yourself free, because you do what you will; but are you free to will, or not to will; to desire, or not to desire? Are not your volitions and desires necessarily excited by objects or qualities totally independent of you?” From Good Sense Without God.

Albert Einstein: "If the moon, in the act of completing its eternal way around the earth, were gifted with self-consciousness, it would feel thoroughly convinced that it was traveling its way of its own accord on the strength of a resolution taken once and for all. So would a Being, endowed with higher insight and more perfect intelligence, watching man and his doings, smile about man’s illusion that he was acting according to his own free will." From a piece written as a homage to the Indian mystical poet Rabindranath Tagore, quoted here.

And: “I do not believe in free will. Schopenhauer's words: 'Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills,' accompany me in all situations throughout my life and reconcile me with the actions of others, even if they are rather painful to me. This awareness of the lack of free will keeps me from taking myself and my fellow men too seriously as acting and deciding individuals, and from losing my temper.” From "My Credo" .

And: "I agree with your remark about loving your enemy as far as actions are concerned. But for me the cognitive basis is the trust in an unrestricted causality. 'I cannot hate him, because he must do what he does.' That means for me more Spinoza than the prophets." From a letter to Michele Besso quoted here.

And: "Human beings, in their thinking, feeling and acting are not free agents but are as causally bound as the stars in their motion." From his address to the Spinoza Society in 1932.

Thomas Jefferson: "I should . . . prefer swallowing one incomprehensibility rather than two. It requires one effort only to admit the single incomprehensibility of matter endowed with thought, and two to believe, first that of an existence called spirit, of which we have neither evidence nor idea, and then secondly how that spirit, which has neither extension nor solidity, can put material organs into motion." From a letter to John Adams on 3/14/1820.

Samuel Johnson: “All theory is against free will; all experience is for it.”

Abraham Lincoln: “The human mind is impelled to action, or held in rest by some power, over which the mind itself has no control.” from Handbill Replying to Charges of Infidelity.[1] “We often argued the question, I taking the opposite view.... I once contended that man was free and could act without a motive. [Lincoln] smiled at my philosophy, and answered that it was impossible, because the motive was born before the man.... He defied me to act without motive and unselfishly; and when I did the act and told him of it, he analyzed and sifted it to the last grain. After he had concluded, I could not avoid the admission that he had demonstrated the absolute selfishness of the entire act.” From Herndon, "Analysis of the Character of Abraham Lincoln," Abraham Lincoln Quarterly 1 (Dec. 1941): 411; Herndon and Weik, Abraham Lincoln, 2:148, 306, quoted in Abraham Lincoln and the Doctrine of Necessity by Allen C. Guezlo (a most interesting, well-referenced paper).

Friedrich Nietzsche: "The causa sui is the best self-contradiction that has been conceived so far; it is a sort of rape and perversion of logic. But the extravagant pride of man has managed to entangle itself profoundly and frightfully with just this nonsense. The desire for ‘freedom of the will’ in the superlative metaphysical sense, which still holds sway, unfortunately, in the minds of the half-educated; the desire to bear the entire and ultimate responsibility for one’s actions oneself, and to absolve God, the world, ancestors, chance, and society involves nothing less than to be precisely this causa sui and, with more than Baron Münchhausen’s audacity, to pull oneself up into existence by the hair, out of the swamps of nothingness." Quoted in “The Buck Stops – Where?”, an interview with philosopher Galen Strawson.

Bertrand Russell: “When a man acts in ways that annoy us we wish to think him wicked, and we refuse to face the fact that his annoying behavior is the result of antecedent causes which, if you follow them long enough, will take you beyond the moment of his birth, and therefore to events for which he cannot be held responsible by any stretch of imagination… When a motorcar fails to start, we do not attribute its annoying behavior to sin, we do not say, you are a wicked motorcar, and you shall not have any more gasoline until you go.” (Richard Dawkins takes exactly this line at Edge.Org in his case against retribution.)

Arthur Schopenhauer: “You are free to do what you want, but you are not free to want what you want.”

Baruch Spinoza: “The mind is determined to this or that choice by a cause which is also determined by another cause, and this again by another, and so on ad infinitum. This doctrine teaches us to hate no one, to despise no one, to mock no one, to be angry with no one, and to envy no one.”

Mark Twain: “Where are there are two desires in a man's heart he has no choice between the two but must obey the strongest, there being no such thing as free will in the composition of any human being that ever lived." - in Eruption. See also and especially “What Is Man?” for Twain's completely naturalistic view on human nature.

Voltaire: “Now, you receive all your ideas; therefore you receive your wish, you wish therefore necessarily. The word "liberty" does not therefore belong in any way to your will….The will, therefore, is not a faculty that one can call free. A free will is an expression absolutely void of sense, and what the scholastics have called will of indifference, that is to say willing without cause, is a chimera unworthy of being combated.” From The Philosophical Dictionary.

There are many other free will skeptics yet to be quoted, for instance LaMettrie, Hume, Mill, Locke, B. F. Skinner, and of course most modern-day philosophers and scientists who have weighed in on the topic, some of whom are mentioned here. If you come across any pearls of skeptical wisdom on free will by well-known thinkers, please be in touch.

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Author: BenHurJudah Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672890 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 7:35 AM
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If I had the free will to do so, I would refute this out of context nonsense.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672895 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 9:16 AM
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"Which of these people also did not have working brains?

Einstein? Darwin? Jefferson? Lincoln? Nietzsche? Schopenhauer? Spinoza? Twain? Voltaire? Hume, Mill, Locke, B. F. Skinner?"


Last I checked they did not walk around or post 20 or30 bi-bull verses on boards or write them down in their columns or works...



t

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Author: namkato Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672908 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 10:06 AM
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The Bhagavad Gita

(from the Stephen Mitchell translation)

The true nature of action is profound, and difficult to fathom. 4.17 – 21

People do nothing at all, even when fully engaged in actions. 4.17 – 21

All beings are compelled to act, however unwilling, by Nature, the gunas. 3.3 – 6

One who knows that only the gunas are acting is ready to attain the ultimate freedom. 14.23 – 26

When a person sees clearly that there is no doer besides [Nature] and knows what exists beyond, that person can enter [God’s] state of being. 14.19 – 22

I [Krishna, God] am the source of all things 10.4 – 8

All things are in my infinite [unformed] body. 11.7 – 11

Krishna [the unformed] is all that is. 7.18 – 22





Ashtavakra Gita

(from an online translation by John Richards)

The world appears in the same way a rope might appear to be a snake. It’s only an appearance. 2.9

The knower, the knowing, and every thing known ? these do not exist. You are the reality in which they appear to exist. 2.15

There is no cure for this false appearance other than seeing it is unreal. 2.16

I (Ashtavakra) am like the ocean, and the many objects are like the waves. 6.2

In the formless ocean, the world of objects (form) appears to drift here and there. 7.1

Whether things of the world appear to arise and fade away is not important. 7.2

My true nature is not contained in objects, nor does any object exist in it, for it is infinite [without form]. 7.4

Recognising that in reality no action [no movement] is ever committed, I live with whatever “doing” is presenting itself. 13.3

A man free of ideas of “me” and “mine” and of a sense of “doing“, aware that “no object actually exists,” does not act even in acting. 17.19

There is no delusion, world, or liberation. These things are in the realm of imagination. 18.14

Even in seeing this, it is not someone seeing. 18.15

How could it possibly be described? 18.93

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672918 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 10:37 AM
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See, namkato, telegraph will come along and castigate you for quoting from insightful sources, even as he doesn't think they were inspired sources. Why? Because telegraph is hostile to anything but secular humanism. telegraph thinks Man is omnipotent. Man is all; there's room for nothing else. His religion is secular humanism--which is just as much bull as the bi-bull (his word; not mine) he despises.

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Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 1:21 PM
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The Bhagavad Gita

I loved that song by Iron Butterfly.

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Author: namkato Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672955 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 2:30 PM
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See, namkato, telegraph will come along and castigate you for quoting from insightful sources, even as he doesn't think they were inspired sources.
================================================

I have posted a lot of evidence for the lack of free will; no free will advocate has linked any evidence that it does exist, nor will they even admit that all of these great scientists and intellectuals might just be on to something.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672961 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 2:41 PM
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"See, namkato, telegraph will come along and castigate you for quoting from insightful sources, even as he doesn't think they were inspired sources. "



When you have to quote the verse number....you know you are being fed BS.

Really? Shall we go to Shakespeare? I'm sure there are thousands of quotable quotes....... to be or not to be...that is the question......

but we don't write down the chapter and verse number, do we?


I've seen so many fundie robots programmed to not think, but just spout bi=bull verses...when you ask them a tough question - they just respond automatically with the pre programmed response. They can't even think themselves.

If you ask them what is 6528 plus 347, or why Germany invaded Poland in WW2...... they'll quote something that says math or world history isn't important but the bi-bull history and the soul is...or other crap like that rather than thinking of the answer to the problem.


t.

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Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 2:43 PM
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"I have posted a lot of evidence for the lack of free will; no free will advocate has linked any evidence that it does exist, nor will they even admit that all of these great scientists and intellectuals might just be on to something." - namkato

----------


Just for the fun of it, not that I think it's going to change anyone's mind, here are a few more links to some interesting articles about actual experiments where people and machines have actually been able to predict the future statistically well above the chance level. Really strange stuff. I've actually got links to a few more than this.... but you get the idea. My opinion as to what it means? The education of the soul is too important to leave up to chance! - Art

by the way, the black box article is especially interesting.

Could It Be? Spooky Experiments That 'See' The Future
by Robert Krulwich

http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2011/01/04/132622672/could...


Have Scientists Finally Discovered Evidence for Psychic Phenomena?
New studies show people can anticipate future events.
Published on October 11, 2010 by Melissa Burkley, Ph.D. in The Social Thinker

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-social-thinker/20101...

Is this evidence that we can see the future?

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19712-is-this-evidence...

Is Precognition Real? Cornell University Lab Releases Powerful New Evidence that the Human Mind can Perceive the Future
By: Ben Goertzel

http://hplusmagazine.com/2010/11/04/precognition-real-cornel...

Can This Black Box See Into the Future?

http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/126649/can_this_black_b...

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672964 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 2:46 PM
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no free will advocate has linked any evidence that it does exist,

Except your own decisions, day to day. You can't be serious that you think what you do from minute to minute is pre-programmed.

Why is it important for you to believe this?

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672966 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 2:47 PM
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"When you have to quote the verse number....you know you are being fed BS." - tele


Tele the Bible is like the accumulated wisdom of 200,000 years of human evolution. It's like saying, "this is what has worked in the past and if you follow these idioms, sayings, rules, etc. one will tend to have a good life.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. There are hidden gems amongst the gravel. Some of it is good stuff like the verses about learning to control your tongue because it can cause all manner of mischief.

Art

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672968 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 2:50 PM
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Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. There are hidden gems amongst the gravel. Some of it is good stuff like the verses about learning to control your tongue because it can cause all manner of mischief.

tele claims to have a doctorate in Theology. I doubt he has ever even read the Bible.

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672974 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 2:59 PM
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"tele claims to have a doctorate in Theology. I doubt he has ever even read the Bible." - catherine
-------------------


The strange thing about me is that even though I am not a typical westernized Christian there is no doubt in my mind that being a part of and associated with The Church of Christ has provided me with a good life. It was a support network of really good people.

Even though they have some of what I consider to be nutty beliefs.... they are really good people and the things they believe have been instrumental in given a good life. They taught me how be functional after I had grown up in a dysfunctional way.

So it's not all bad. There is a lot of good in it.

Art

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672976 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 3:04 PM
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"It was a support network of really good people." - Art



The Church of Christ was a support network of really good people that I desperately needed. They kept me on the straight and narrow. Their beliefs helped me to make good rational choices in life and avoid a lot of life's pitfalls.

Otherwise there's no telling where I would ended up. I suspicion I would be divorced and alone, living in an old run down trailer near my brother's house in South Georgia. I would be stumbling and struggling through life rather than the security that I currently enjoy.

Art

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672979 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 3:14 PM
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The strange thing about me is that even though I am not a typical westernized Christian there is no doubt in my mind that being a part of and associated with The Church of Christ has provided me with a good life.

If this life is all there is, that would be more than enough reason to associate with a church.

But it's not.

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Author: LuckyDog2002 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672981 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 3:18 PM
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hey cc, are you retired now?? just wondered since you're on here alot.

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Author: namkato Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672982 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 3:26 PM
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fundie robots programmed to not think, but just spout bi=bull verses

they'll quote something that says math or world history isn't important but the bi-bull history and the soul is...or other crap like that rather than thinking of the answer to the problem.
===========================================

Actually, all of those quotes go AGAINST what is taught in every Christian church today.

Churches preach that there is an individual who should live a certain way. That is NOT the original teaching of Christ. Some of those quotes are from the recently discovered Book of Thomas, which is NOT found in the Bible.

This fundie accusation is a straw man.

Modern neurologists who study consciousness are practically unanimous in doubting free will. I am not going to pretend to be smarter than they are.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672984 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 3:32 PM
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No, I'm not retired yet. Most days I think I never will be. Other days I'm less pessimistic.

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Author: namkato Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672986 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 3:38 PM
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You can't be serious that you think what you do from minute to minute is pre-programmed.
==================================

Not pre programmed. But constrained into a very narrow set of possibilities. You did not choose your genetics, your parents, your environment, your school, your likes and dislikes, your abilities or lack of abilities. You do not even have the ability to say exactly where your thoughts come from. They just come, and you can't stop them. If you had this control, you could avoid sadness, discontent, wanting, fear, and regret, and you would be able to choose to have only happy thoughts.

Arthur Schopenhauer: “You are free to do what you want, but you are not free to want what you want.”

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672989 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 3:58 PM
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Not pre programmed. But constrained into a very narrow set of possibilities. You did not choose your genetics, your parents, your environment, your school, your likes and dislikes, your abilities or lack of abilities. You do not even have the ability to say exactly where your thoughts come from. They just come, and you can't stop them. If you had this control, you could avoid sadness, discontent, wanting, fear, and regret, and you would be able to choose to have only happy thoughts.

Arthur Schopenhauer: “You are free to do what you want, but you are not free to want what you want.”
____________________________________

What a crock.

WHo among us, could not have had a very different life but from a few conscious choices?

I guess coming from such a congested community, I know folks with similar profiles to me, probably in the ball park on IQ, same schools, etc some wildly successful, some dead by choices they made, some in jail, some happy, some like me.

I know brothers with near identical IQs one is a corporate exec living the 'big life' the other? Doing life

Narrow band my not so narrow bootom

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672990 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 4:08 PM
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"If this life is all there is, that would be more than enough reason to associate with a church. But it's not." - catherine


Heh heh heh.... I agree 100%. We are only here for a little while. This life goes by in the blink of an eye. In fact I highly suspicion this life is just a preparation for the next.

Art

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Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 4:10 PM
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In fact I highly suspicion this life is just a preparation for the next.

No kidding.

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Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 4:25 PM
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"Actually, all of those quotes go AGAINST what is taught in every Christian church today. Churches preach that there is an individual who should live a certain way. That is NOT the original teaching of Christ. Some of those quotes are from the recently discovered Book of Thomas, which is NOT found in the Bible." - Namkato
-------------------


Speaking of Christianity and Catholicism here is an interesting story to ponder.

My best friend John is gay. He and I met in College in the summer of 1975 in a Beef Production class taught by Dr. Seerley. John didn't particularly like me because I spoke out in class and was "talkative" (the same way I am in Sunday School class) but he found out I was butchering live sheep in my back yard. I was only paying $5.00 each for them. The Animal Science department were using these sheep and the only thing they wanted out of them were the reproductive tracts and then they sewed them up and sold them to me for $5.00/each. I was like getting a hundred pounds of meat for $5.00! What a deal!

So John, coming from a family of Italian meat packers wanted in on that deal. So he started coming over to my house and helping me butcher these sheep... and we ended up becoming friends.

Now at this time John was "in the closet" and engaged to be married to a girl from New York State that he had gone to school with up there. John was trying to live the life that his parents wanted him to live. He was trying to be straight. A lot of men do that, they get married and try to hide their feelings. This was 1975 remember.

So John got married and had three children, two girls and a boy, and stayed married till 1992. He came home one day and his wife had left him and took his kids. She either had figured out or "knew" on some kind of deep level that he was gay and so she just divorced him.

Now the interesting thing about this story is that if John had come out of the closet in college, and had lived the gay lifestyle that gay men back then were living, promiscuous, there is a very good chance that he would have caught AIDS up in New York and died at a very young age. He was the right age to have been in that bunch of gay men who died from the HIV virus before they knew what it was.

The reason John stayed in the closet and didn't come out was because of his parents and most especially his mother. She was one of these Catholics that really lived what the Church taught. John didn't want to alienate his family so he tried to be straight, get married, and hide his feelings. Staying in the closet till 1992 was enough time to give researchers time to figure out the virus and learn how to keep from being infected.

So in a very real sense John's mother's Christianity/Catholicism saved his life. And by the way John's two daughters are both doctors, one an OB-GYN oncology surgeon and the other one is a neurologist/doctor that specializes in the brain and is now teaching at NYU in New York City. John's son has a Master's degree and is a computer programmer for the New York State Police and is engaged and owns his own home and fixing to get married.... so his kids turned out okay. And both daughters have boyfriends. They are all functional normal kids.

Art

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672993 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 4:28 PM
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"No, I'm not retired yet. Most days I think I never will be. Other days I'm less pessimistic." - catherine


Is it possible that if you were willing to move from Southern California that you could retire? Do you think it's the high cost of living in California that is keeping you from retiring?

I wonder if it's more difficult to retire early if one lives in New York City because of the high cost?

Art

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672994 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 4:31 PM
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Namkato shares, "Not pre programmed. But constrained into a very narrow set of possibilities. You did not choose your genetics, your parents, your environment, your school, your likes and dislikes, your abilities or lack of abilities. You do not even have the ability to say exactly where your thoughts come from. They just come, and you can't stop them. If you had this control, you could avoid sadness, discontent, wanting, fear, and regret, and you would be able to choose to have only happy thoughts."
Arthur Schopenhauer: “You are free to do what you want, but you are not free to want what you want.”

---------------------------


I'm not sure we have any free will. For all I know the whole thing may be like a DVD of a movie with us just playing our parts. The education of the soul may be too important to leave up to chance.

Everything may happen for a reason, even the bad stuff. I'm not positive about it but I suspicion it may be true.

Art

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672995 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 4:33 PM
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CC:"tele claims to have a doctorate in Theology. I doubt he has ever even read the Bible. "

I don't know of anyone who has read it end to end.

IT's nothing but gore and killing. 250,000 wiped out in the Olde Testament alone. And godthingie was happy and gave the victors all sorts of gifts including a harem of 300 concubines....which he allowed him to have.....

Kill and be rewarded..that is most of the Olde Testament....

and the rules!..the silly rules about 'clean and unclean' women. ANd animals....and beards......and on and on and on....

Do you know anyone who has actually read the bible.? I don't mean surfing a few verses here and there.

There are 2 1/2 sets of the 'ten commandments' except they contradict each other and aren't complete. You did know that, right?

Get a copy of Asimov's guide to the bi-bull and be amazed.

And yes, tele has a Doctor of Theology degree.



t.

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672996 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 4:35 PM
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"What a crock. WHo among us, could not have had a very different life but from a few conscious choices?I guess coming from such a congested community, I know folks with similar profiles to me, probably in the ball park on IQ, same schools, etc some wildly successful, some dead by choices they made, some in jail, some happy, some like me.I know brothers with near identical IQs one is a corporate exec living the 'big life' the other? Doing life. Narrow band my not so narrow bootom" - lowstudent
-----------


Yes, but what causes us to make the choices we do in life? Why don't we all make perfectly rational perfect choices? Why doesn't everyone make the correct choice but instead we do all the crazy stuff we do in life?

Who doesn't have regrets? Who doesn't wonder "what if?" Before I met my wife I was in love with a girl that I dated for two years. She broke up with me but sometimes I wonder if I had been more persistent and married her.... where would I be right now? What would have happened?

I don't know why I made the choices I did in life. I've done some crazy stuff in my life.

Art

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672998 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 4:42 PM
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"Do you know anyone who has actually read the bible.? I don't mean surfing a few verses here and there." - tele


My wife's father, RD, was a Church of Christ preacher (since WWII) and had read it many many times front to back. There are also many people in our church who read the bible every year, from start to finish.

I don't because I am not a fan of the Old Testament at all. I think it's mostly just a history of the Jews, written by and for Jews. It's the history of the Jews from an ancient Jewish perspective.

I do enjoy quite a bit of the New Testament and see a lot of parallels between it and Near Death Experiences and the holographic universe theory which I find amazing. There are a lot of verses in the New Testament that have a very NDE/holographic universe flavor to them.

And I like some of the Apocrypha and gnostic writings too, like the Gospel of Thomas. I find gnosticism interesting.

Art

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673001 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 5:04 PM
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Churches preach that there is an individual who should live a certain way. That is NOT the original teaching of Christ.

Pray tell, what is the teaching of Christ?

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673002 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 5:07 PM
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So John got married and had three children, two girls and a boy

Now how did he manage to impregnate a woman if he was gay? Did he fantasize about the guy next door during coitus?

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673003 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 5:09 PM
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Is it possible that if you were willing to move from Southern California that you could retire? Do you think it's the high cost of living in California that is keeping you from retiring?

Definitely. Our year round sunshine is expensive.

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Author: 307wolverine Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673005 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 5:13 PM
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Now how did he manage to impregnate a woman if he was gay?

You have a child. I'm sure you are familiar with the basics.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673006 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 5:14 PM
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It's nothing but gore and killing.

Proof positive that telegraph, "PhD," has never read the Bible.

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Author: LuckyDog2002 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673007 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 5:19 PM
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So John got married and had three children, two girls and a boy

Now how did he manage to impregnate a woman if he was gay? Did he fantasize about the guy next door during coitus?
CC

>>>>>>>
uh, get some stimulation going in the penis, it swells with blood and boom boom, sperm comes out......just because someone is gay does not mean they can't or won't be stimulated by either sex.

I dare say that if any of those guys I had sex with had thought of my pleasure at all, I might have married one of them. None of them did....but that doesn't mean there are no men out there who care about their partners pleasure, just that I didn't have the good fortune to meet one way back in the day.

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Author: LuckyDog2002 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673008 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 5:22 PM
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No, I'm not retired yet. Most days I think I never will be. Other days I'm less pessimistic.
CC

>>>>>>>>>

so I take it the mortgage business out there is not good huh?

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673011 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 5:36 PM
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so I take it the mortgage business out there is not good huh?

The mortgage business is booming, IF one can tolerate the compliance quicksand that makes every loan sheer torture to originate a la Dodd-Frank Act. This is why I know OwebamaKare will directly impact the shortgage of physicians that's coming down the pike. Once word gets out how miserable it is to be a physician under OwebamaKare, very few people will want to invest their time and treasure to become a physician.

Elections have consequences.

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Author: 307wolverine Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673013 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 5:38 PM
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I dare say that if any of those guys I had sex with had thought of my pleasure at all, I might have married one of them. None of them did....but that doesn't mean there are no men out there who care about their partners pleasure, just that I didn't have the good fortune to meet one way back in the day.

I never understood this. It seems to me that if I want her to want me, then I gotta give her an incentive to want to make love with me. It's just simple common sense.

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Author: LuckyDog2002 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673014 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 5:39 PM
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so what other options for career change are there for you? banking, real estate appraisals, sales? I'm sure any of those you can find a spot in.

LD

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673016 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 5:41 PM
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Now how did he manage to impregnate a woman if he was gay?

You have a child. I'm sure you are familiar with the basics.

I assure you, the impregnator of said child was not gay. <g>

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673017 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 5:44 PM
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Oh, I'm already in training for another line of work. I think more people than ever need guidance regarding retirement, so I'm going for my CFP (certified financial planner) credentials.

I can still originate loans, however. Indeed, I think the troublesome aspects of Dodd-Frank will eventuallty be repealed--unless, that is, even more stupid legislators take the place of the stupid ones who left (Dodd, Frank, et al).

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673024 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 6:10 PM
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"Now how did he manage to impregnate a woman if he was gay? Did he fantasize about the guy next door during coitus?" - Catherine


I don't know! He loved his wife though. He actually told me that it's easier to make love to a woman than it is a man. I guess because women have a vagina and it's easier to enter? He did tell me that it's a mess making love to a man! I think he could probably tell at that point I was getting a little nervous and uncomfortable so that was the end of that conversation! <grin!>

He did say that sex is not that big a deal. (he has a boyfriend and they live together) It is not the main part of their relationship and people make too much of it. He said that other than that it's no different than a man and woman who are together. Keep in mind that he is pretty close to me in age so sex is no longer the motivating force in his life. It's just two people who happen to love each other, two men instead of a man and a woman.

Art

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673026 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 6:12 PM
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"Definitely. Our year round sunshine is expensive." - Catherine


Well if it's any consolation it's cold and grey and ugly here right now. It's like in the 40s in the daytime and slightly below freezing at night. The sky is grey and it's the kind of cold that penetrates to your bones. Tennessee has ugly winters. Everything looks dead.

Art

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673027 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 6:16 PM
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"I dare say that if any of those guys I had sex with had thought of my pleasure at all, I might have married one of them. None of them did....but that doesn't mean there are no men out there who care about their partners pleasure, just that I didn't have the good fortune to meet one way back in the day." - luckydog

--------------


Oh! Too bad! I'm sorry. That's half the fun (or more than half the fun) of making love! Making the other person feel good. Otherwise what's the point? That's like my favorite part. I like to watch her face and see her expressions. It's titillating!

Art

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673029 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 6:22 PM
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He actually told me that it's easier to make love to a woman than it is a man. I guess because women have a vagina and it's easier to enter? He did tell me that it's a mess making love to a man!

Someone needs to 'splain this to me like I'm eight years old. I don't get it.

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673032 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 6:23 PM
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no free will advocate has linked any evidence that it does exist,

Except your own decisions, day to day. You can't be serious that you think what you do from minute to minute is pre-programmed.

Why is it important for you to believe this?


He chooses to believe in predestination, but fate has decreed that I'll disagree.

That's the ironic thing about his position: if he's wrong he's wrong, and if he's right he has absolutely no chance of actually convincing anyone (but at the same time he's incapable of choosing to give up on the attempt).

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673033 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 6:25 PM
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Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. There are hidden gems amongst the gravel. Some of it is good stuff like the verses about learning to control your tongue because it can cause all manner of mischief.

The thing is, the good stuff is good WITHOUT the Bible chapter-and-verse references... or even awareness that it comes from the Bible. (Which, by the way, most of it has multiple independent sources some of which predate the Bible and could be where the guys who wrote the Bible got it.)

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Author: 307wolverine Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673035 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 6:26 PM
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Why is it important for you to believe this?

Because it justifies inaction. If they have a challenge in life, then they were meant to have that challenge, so why try?

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673036 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 6:30 PM
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"Someone needs to 'splain this to me like I'm eight years old. I don't get it." - Catherine


Well he's of Italian Ancestry and he has bragged to me that he is well endowed so perhaps that has something to do with it? If you catch my drift? The anus and colon aren't exactly made for sex. The tissue is thin and not muscular and "stretchy" like a woman's vagina. Ouch?

Women are made for sex. When they are "ready" and receptive it is very easy to get inside.

Art

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673037 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 6:31 PM
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Well he's of Italian Ancestry and he has bragged to me that he is well endowed so perhaps that has something to do with it? If you catch my drift?

Ahhh! It's all the Vaseline and/or KY Jelly and/or bacon grease that makes it messy. LOL!

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673039 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 6:32 PM
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"He chooses to believe in predestination, but fate has decreed that I'll disagree. That's the ironic thing about his position: if he's wrong he's wrong, and if he's right he has absolutely no chance of actually convincing anyone (but at the same time he's incapable of choosing to give up on the attempt)." - warrl

---------------


Exactly. We are all just playing our parts. It's just one more thing for us to experience duality and separation over. One more way for the soul to learn what it means and how it feels to be separate, something it can't learn in Heaven due to those overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness.

Art

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Author: buffalogal100 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673040 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 6:34 PM
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Do you think it's the high cost of living in California that is keeping you from retiring?

It's kind of like my sis who lives in Victoria. She and her DH took the money our dad gave us all and put a down payment on a custom built home with a view of a bay below their house. It's so beautifully designed and has maple floors, near ceiling to floor windows, a beautiful kitchen with hardwood flooring and granite countertops. I think it all cost upwards of 700k. She has a cleaning team come in once a week, and they took a trip to Hawaii this year. She and her DH are both in their 70's and depend on their business for their income which, at times can be spotty.

I'm not saying that's Catherine's situation, but it's the same mantra - where sis says they'll never be able to retire. Yet, admirably, sis and her DH are making retirement dreams come true while they're still working. She says when retirement does happen, the house will be sold at a profit - giving them a nest egg. What I don't think she realizes is that it would take too many years to build up equity vs what they owe. They'd be in their 90's before they'd get any profit at all, I'm afraid. Yet, sis is happy with her life and accepts it for what it is. She has always said she take her life one day at a time and doesn't think or worry about the future. I'd be a bundle of jangled nerves if I lived with that attitude. Wait. I'm a bundle of jangled nerves now just thinking of the future.

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673041 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 6:35 PM
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"The thing is, the good stuff is good WITHOUT the Bible chapter-and-verse references... or even awareness that it comes from the Bible. (Which, by the way, most of it has multiple independent sources some of which predate the Bible and could be where the guys who wrote the Bible got it.)" warrl
--------------


I believe that too. I suspicion it was passed down orally for thousands of years, you know like the accumulated wisdom of our tribal ancestors sitting around the campfire, telling their sons and daughters to listen up because these are the things their grandparents told them are important and if they learn it will make their lives easier.

Then writing was invented and it was written down.

Art

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673044 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 6:41 PM
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"Because it justifies inaction. If they have a challenge in life, then they were meant to have that challenge, so why try?" - wolverine


My sister Linda doesn't buy into my "fate and predestination" theories and she believes she can control everything and that if she just bugs enough people about global climate change that she can change people's minds and cause a landslide reaction and people will "wake up" and eventually come to her way of thinking.

Perhaps a little bit of belief in fate and predestination allows us to accept the things that we can not change without being bitter or driving the people around us nuts trying to control their lives?

Another words, it allows us to accept certain things about life, like its inherent unfairness, so that we don't go nuts trying to correct everything we think are wrong with this life?

Art

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Author: 307wolverine Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673046 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 6:45 PM
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My sister Linda doesn't buy into my "fate and predestination" theories and she believes she can control everything and that if she just bugs enough people about global climate change that she can change people's minds and cause a landslide reaction and people will "wake up" and eventually come to her way of thinking.

Out of respect for you, I will withhold comment.


Perhaps a little bit of belief in fate and predestination allows us to accept the things that we can not change without being bitter or driving the people around us nuts trying to control their lives?

Another words, it allows us to accept certain things about life, like its inherent unfairness, so that we don't go nuts trying to correct everything we think are wrong with this life?


I am not talking about societal factors. I am talking about the individual conquering life's obstacles.

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673048 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 6:48 PM
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"Because it justifies inaction. If they have a challenge in life, then they were meant to have that challenge, so why try?" - wolverine


Bloomberg believes that if he can just control how much sugar people are drinking it will make everything right with the world.

Michelle Obama believes if she can just control the food that kids are eating she can conquer obesity. If she can just get everyone to exercise then we will all be physically fit and healthy.

Who gets to decide what I should or should not do? Who gets to make those decisions? Who is the judge, jury, and executioner when it comes to my life?

What I should or should not be doing?

Art

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673049 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 6:49 PM
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What I don't think she realizes is that it would take too many years to build up equity vs what they owe. They'd be in their 90's before they'd get any profit at all, I'm afraid.

She can pay the principal down to 60% LTV, put a reverse mortgage on the property and never make another mortgage payment until the day they both die.

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Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 6:53 PM
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There is a young black guy at our Church, Travis, that recently got out of the Army. He and I have sort of become friends because I always make a point to go and talk to him. So Sunday after church he says to me, "you and me should go and work out together some time!" I almost had a heart attack! I told him, "I've got arthritis in my hips and back and I am in too much pain." Travis smiled and said, "Oh you can work through the pain." Ouch ouch ouch ouch! I have a feeling I'd be in traction for a week after a workout with this guy. He is probably about 27 years old and he looks like he is solid muscle.

Art

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673052 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 6:55 PM
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Another words, it allows us to accept certain things about life

Why does this syntactic colligation mess bug the chit out of me? *sigh*

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Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 6:59 PM
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Bloomberg believes that if he can just control how much sugar people are drinking it will make everything right with the world.

Did you read where Bloomberg's soda ban affects 2-liter beverages vis-a-vis pizza delivery?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/02/25/bloomberg-soda-ba...

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673054 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 7:02 PM
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I told him, "I've got arthritis in my hips and back and I am in too much pain." Travis smiled and said, "Oh you can work through the pain."

That's what this guy did.

http://www.today.com/video/today/50408080#50408080

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673055 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 7:03 PM
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Catherine, "Did you read where Bloomberg's soda ban affects 2-liter beverages vis-a-vis pizza delivery?"


One more reason I'm glad I don't live in New York City. Even though Tennessee has ugly cold dreary winters and hot as hell summers at least I know they'll never pass a law telling people how much soda they can buy. Trust me that chit will never fly in Tennessee. Ain't gonna happen.

Art

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Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 7:05 PM
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Catherine shares, "That's what this guy did."

http://www.today.com/video/today/50408080#50408080



I'm not him. I'm a separate unique individual. <grin!>


Art

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Author: namkato Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673057 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 7:16 PM
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I know folks with similar profiles to me, probably in the ball park on IQ, same schools, etc some wildly successful, some dead by choices they made, some in jail, some happy, some like me.

I know brothers with near identical IQs one is a corporate exec living the 'big life' the other? Doing life
============================================

So, the one's who are dead or in jail wanted to end up that way? After all, they knew that the choices they made were statistically leading to that, so they must have wanted that outcome?

Some are happy, and others are like you? Why don't you just be happy all the time? You can just decide to be happy, there, it's done. What could be easier?

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Author: namkato Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673058 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 7:31 PM
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"The thing is, the good stuff is good WITHOUT the Bible chapter-and-verse references... or even awareness that it comes from the Bible. (Which, by the way, most of it has multiple independent sources some of which predate the Bible and could be where the guys who wrote the Bible got it.)" warrl
===============================================

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxwqAYSsKjY

Jesus Was a Buddhist Monk BBC Documentary

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673059 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 7:32 PM
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Why don't you just be happy all the time?

Of course you know it's possible to be happy all the time. Control over one's mind is one of life's challenges. The Dalai Lama, for example, claims to be happy all the time. I've heard him say this several times in interviews.

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Author: buffalogal100 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673060 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 7:33 PM
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She can pay the principal down to 60% LTV, put a reverse mortgage on the property and never make another mortgage payment until the day they both die.

Don't know the current appraised value re loan to value percentage. They'll be coming up to their 4th year living in it. I think, at this point, a reverse mortgage is not in their favor any time soon - unless the r/e mkt skyrockets. For the most part, it's stable, but people aren't knocking the gates down, so to speak. I know very little about r/e and its machinations. Someone from our bank tried to get us to do a reverse mtg. The fees alone were around 6k or maybe 8k. The person I spoke to said we could include the fees in the amount we could get which would start the interest rate ticking the moment the papers were signed (@ 5.5%). We declined it. At this point we don't need any extra money at all. In the uncertain future, however, who knows.

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Author: namkato Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673061 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 7:39 PM
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I am not talking about societal factors. I am talking about the individual conquering life's obstacles.
==========================================

Didn't Abe Lincoln have any life obstacles?

Abraham Lincoln: “The human mind is impelled to action, or held in rest by some power, over which the mind itself has no control.” from Handbill Replying to Charges of Infidelity.[1] “We often argued the question, I taking the opposite view.... I once contended that man was free and could act without a motive. [Lincoln] smiled at my philosophy, and answered that it was impossible, because the motive was born before the man.... He defied me to act without motive and unselfishly; and when I did the act and told him of it, he analyzed and sifted it to the last grain. After he had concluded, I could not avoid the admission that he had demonstrated the absolute selfishness of the entire act.” From Herndon, "Analysis of the Character of Abraham Lincoln," Abraham Lincoln Quarterly 1 (Dec. 1941): 411; Herndon and Weik, Abraham Lincoln, 2:148, 306, quoted in Abraham Lincoln and the Doctrine of Necessity by Allen C. Guezlo (a most interesting, well-referenced paper).

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Author: namkato Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673062 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 7:42 PM
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I told him, "I've got arthritis in my hips and back and I am in too much pain."
========================================

Total Hip Replacement is routine these days, and the new hip joints might also fix the back problem, or you could opt for fusion of the vertebrae which is also routine.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673063 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 7:45 PM
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CC: Indeed, I think the troublesome aspects of Dodd-Frank will eventuallty be repealed--unless, that is, even more stupid legislators take the place of the stupid ones who left (Dodd, Frank, et al). "



Nope...no progressive liberal will vote to rescind the 'consumer protections' in Frank Dodd that 'protect' the 'little guy' from the 'big nasty profit making banks out to screw them'


Ain't going to happen.

Hey Art...they had 17 inches of snow in Amarillo TX with six foot snow drifts today!......40 mph winds gusting 70......


Was sunny but chilly 55 today...turned to all clouds......snowing about 140 miles to northwest.....chilly tonight near 30..... but sun rest of week and highs in the 50s....

Too bad CC never sees the leaves drop....or the few snow flurries here.....and the TX wildflowers....



t.

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Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 7:50 PM
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or you could opt for fusion of the vertebrae which is also routine.

But is that the way to go? I mean, think about it...fusing one's vetebrae?! Sounds ghoulish to me.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673065 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 7:54 PM
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Too bad CC never sees the leaves drop....or the few snow flurries here.....and the TX wildflowers....

Visited Dallas once. Didn't like it. ;-)

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673067 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 8:17 PM
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Yes, but what causes us to make the choices we do in life? Why don't we all make perfectly rational perfect choices? Why doesn't everyone make the correct choice but instead we do all the crazy stuff we do in life?
___________________


ROFLMAO

Because we have free will, and we create our own realities through the exercise of it, if we all made all perfect choices we wouldn't have free will

If we need stuff imprinted on our whatever, why not just program it in? The same questions are at the core of every philosophy somewhere.

That anyone is convinced they have the only and right answer always amuses me

Don't take that personally Art, it is not meant as a dig, because though you are pretty sure, I sense your beliefs are not absolute, and like most decision we make they are based on the data we have been presented and the small part of that we comprehend and then the smaller part of that we absorb and maintain. I certainly know there is as good a chance you are right about what comes next as I am, though I feel a little more on solid ground when it comes to the predestination stuff, my certainty is not absolute their either.

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Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 8:33 PM
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"I dare say that if any of those guys I had sex with had thought of my pleasure at all, I might have married one of them. None of them did....but that doesn't mean there are no men out there who care about their partners pleasure, just that I didn't have the good fortune to meet one way back in the day." - luckydog

--------------


Oh! Too bad! I'm sorry. That's half the fun (or more than half the fun) of making love! Making the other person feel good. Otherwise what's the point? That's like my favorite part. I like to watch her face and see her expressions. It's titillating!

Art
................

yes it is. I've had I dunno, less than 10 lesbian girlfriends and with the exception of one, sex was a mutual enjoyment experience. THe one who was not was a "do me queen"....a real piece of work, and a lawyer who was so stuck on herself, she loved the spotlight. She pursued me and even though I disliked her personality, I was at a vulnerable time in my life and went against my gut....ugh 3 months of hell....the pursuit blew up my ego, but after that was done...it was crap. I didn't trust her from the get-go, she was real scum. Learned later she was disbarred.

LD

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Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 8:37 PM
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"Someone needs to 'splain this to me like I'm eight years old. I don't get it." - Catherine


Well he's of Italian Ancestry and he has bragged to me that he is well endowed so perhaps that has something to do with it? If you catch my drift? The anus and colon aren't exactly made for sex. The tissue is thin and not muscular and "stretchy" like a woman's vagina. Ouch?

Women are made for sex. When they are "ready" and receptive it is very easy to get inside.

Art

>>>>>>

you are aware that straight couples do anal sex too. Anykind of orifice can be used on either sex and then there's mutual uhhhh satisfaction manually or electronically.

We need that old lady who's a sex therapist to come on and here and teach a class. I feel like a school marm here. :)

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Author: 307wolverine Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673074 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 8:45 PM
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We need that old lady who's a sex therapist to come on and here and teach a class

Dr Ruth?

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Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 8:47 PM
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Well he's of Italian Ancestry and he has bragged to me that he is well endowed so perhaps that has something to do with it? If you catch my drift?

Ahhh! It's all the Vaseline and/or KY Jelly and/or bacon grease that makes it messy. LOL!
cc

>>>>>>
okay, with this post I'm done with the sexamucation tonight.
vaseline is terrible lubricate,irritates the tissues, gets thin quickly......look at grocery and drug stores shelves, there's a whole lot of different lubricants out there besides KY. I may add as women age the interior tissues of the vagina thins out, not as much lubrication either so these products put the pleasure back in sex for men and women.

Dr. Ruth

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Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 8:49 PM
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We need that old lady who's a sex therapist to come on and here and teach a class

Dr Ruth?

wolvie
>>>>>>>>>

Bingo!!! you must have been sending me that name when I was signing off on that post just a second ago! :)

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673079 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 9:02 PM
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If we need stuff imprinted on our whatever, why not just program it in?

LOL! That's what I've been thinking since Art introduced his theory about the education of the soul is too important, blah blah blah. We either have free will or we don't. If we don't, then just program in the duality and separation business and be done with it.

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Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/25/2013 9:25 PM
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or you could opt for fusion of the vertebrae which is also routine.

But is that the way to go? I mean, think about it...fusing one's vetebrae?! Sounds ghoulish to me.


My understanding is it works (i.e. reduces pain) about a third of the time... and they aren't very good yet at predicting which third.

(If they could reliably predict which third, of course, the success rate would shoot up close to 100%... because the other 2/3 of the time they'd cancel the surgery.)

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673100 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 12:13 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxwqAYSsKjY

Jesus Was a Buddhist Monk BBC Documentary (namkato)


---------


I need to do a Youtube video titled "Jesus was a near death experiencer" Documentary. I like to dance to my own tunes which means I've got my own ideas about things especially when it comes to spirituality and religion.

This is something I wrote (copied and pasted from a Word file):
----

Jesus the Near Death Experiencer and Christianity the near death experience religion:

I'm thinking Jesus was simply a little Jewish Rabbi that had a very deep and profound near death experience and that the New Testament in it's essence is basically a highly embellished, added onto, and out of sequence near death experience story and Christianity at it's very heart a near death experience religion.

They were in a hurry to get the body down from the cross because they were afraid of angering the Jews because they didn't like bodies left up on the cross over the Sabbath. They were afraid the Jews would riot so they wanted to hurry up and get the body down. When that Roman soldier stuck his spear in the side of Jesus he pierced the pericardium which is the sac surrounding the heart and it relieved the pressure which was keeping Jesus heart from beating and then when they cut the body down from the cross, because they were in a hurry, they let the body flop on the ground and the resulting "whomp" restarted the heart and it was beating very slowly so jesus was in a coma.

They turned the body over to the women and they probably cleaned it and bound the wounds and then wrapped it in linen and then they laid it in that cool dark tomb (in the spring time in Jerusalem) and he laid there in a coma for three days.

After three days in a coma Jesus woke up and at some point in his ordeal, probably while he was up on the cross, he had a very deep and profound near death experience. No one in the first Century had ever seen anyone who had had been crucified on a cross live to tell about it. For them it was a miracle. So he came back and started preaching about what the Kingdom of God was like and he prayed in the garden that his followers would experience the oneness and connectedness with God that he had experienced.

The church is supposed to be a respite from the world, or a little piece of heaven here on Earth. That was Jesus original intenetion, that his followers would know the love and light and connectedness with each other that he had experienced while on the other side.

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673102 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 12:19 AM
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Namkato asks, "Didn't Abe Lincoln have any life obstacles?

Abraham Lincoln: “The human mind is impelled to action, or held in rest by some power, over which the mind itself has no control.” from Handbill Replying to Charges of Infidelity.[1] “We often argued the question, I taking the opposite view.... I once contended that man was free and could act without a motive. [Lincoln] smiled at my philosophy, and answered that it was impossible, because the motive was born before the man.... He defied me to act without motive and unselfishly; and when I did the act and told him of it, he analyzed and sifted it to the last grain. After he had concluded, I could not avoid the admission that he had demonstrated the absolute selfishness of the entire act.” From Herndon, "Analysis of the Character of Abraham Lincoln," Abraham Lincoln Quarterly 1 (Dec. 1941): 411; Herndon and Weik, Abraham Lincoln, 2:148, 306, quoted in Abraham Lincoln and the Doctrine of Necessity by Allen C. Guezlo (a most interesting, well-referenced paper)."

--------------------------------------------------------------


It's interesting you should post that. I watched something on TV (or maybe it was youtube?) recently where it said that Abraham Lincoln believed he was being directed by God and was chosen to lead the Nation during that time. He also believed that God had a reason and a plan for prolonging the Civil War for as long as He did. Lincoln couldn't figure out what the reason was (duality and separation) but he believed God was in control and had a reason for keeping the War going.

Speaking of which did ya'll know that Lincoln dreamed his death a few days before it happened? He saw his own death. Good stuff!

President Lincoln's Presentient Dream About the Assassination

http://rogerjnorton.com/Lincoln46.html

Art

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Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 12:22 AM
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"Total Hip Replacement is routine these days, and the new hip joints might also fix the back problem, or you could opt for fusion of the vertebrae which is also routine." - Namkato


True story: I'm a big chicken and don't trust doctors. Besides which I believe God wants me to suffer with this pain. It's essential for my soul to learn about the physical body.

Something I wrote (from a word file on our computer, and yes I honestly believe this:

Pain and Suffering

Maybe God didn't have a choice?

There are people in Malaysia who stick metal rods through the skin of their face, lips, cheeks, etc. In the Philipines people intentionally re-enact the crucifixion of Jesus. In the United States little high school girls intentionally take knives and cut themselves. People go and pay money to have other people "pierce" their bodies. American Indians have this ritual where they hang themselves from hooks through the skin of their chest and backs.

In the Middle Ages religious fanatics took whips and flaggelated their own backs till they were bloody raw. Kids today go and get painful tatoos all over their bodies (and body piercings)? All over the world people intentionally eat hot peppers in their food, and for some people the hotter the better. Those peppers burn their lips, tongues, the inside of the mouths, and sometimes they burn as much coming out the other end as when they went in.

What possesses people to intentionally do very painful things to themselves? What if maybe it's not the person themselves that are doing those things but the soul directing the person to do those things to themselves? Now the question is... WHY?

Just imagine that you are a soul that comes from a place where time and space don't exist, where nothing exists unless it is first thought of, and you haven't got any idea what it feels like to be inside a body, and you don't know what a body even is, or how to direct it, or the parameters of that body and you have a very limited amount of time to learn about the body, and to make "pixels" or bits of information, enough to re-create a body if you need to, and in fact enough information to share with ever soul that has ever lived or will ever live? What if you have been given the commission of coming to this physical reality and were told by the Creator that He wanted you to make as many bits of information or pixels of information about the shape of the body? And you only have a very limited amount of time to do it in?

Sort of like a sculptor that has been told to chisel out a body out of marble and all you have been given is a hammer and a chisel. So you hammer away, and pretty soon this beautiful sculpture emerges from the marble and you did it all with a hammer and a chisel.

I am a believer in this life being a school, and we are here to learn a few simple lessons, what time and space look and feel like, what it feels like to inhabit a body, and make memories of what it was like to direct that body, like a driver driving a car, and memories of what it was like to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time Universe. And you will use this information after you cross back over into Heaven to conjure up your own reality.

In Mark H's NDE he said "I thought of a mountain and one appeared." The atheist A.J. Ayer's said "it was very strange, my thoughts became persons." Mark Horton said, "I merely had to think of a time and place and I was there experiencing everything about that time and place."

We are gatherers of information, and the more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates. The soul uses the body like we use a suit of clothes, and when it is finished it will toss off this suit of clothes like an old worn out suit, with barely a backward glance. With as much emotion as we might reserve for an old worn out pair of tennis shoes. We are simply spiritual beings having a physical experience.

Art

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673105 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 12:30 AM
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"Hey Art...they had 17 inches of snow in Amarillo TX with six foot snow drifts today!......40 mph winds gusting 70...... Was sunny but chilly 55 today...turned to all clouds......snowing about 140 miles to northwest.....chilly tonight near 30..... but sun rest of week and highs in the 50s....Too bad CC never sees the leaves drop....or the few snow flurries here.....and the TX wildflowers...." - tele
--------------


When I heard there was a big blizzard snow storm in Oklahoma I immediately went to Weather.com and looked to see where it was heading and if we were going to get hit. My wife is leaving Wednesday morning to drive to Louisville, KY to a meeting. She is presenting a paper. I was hoping she wasn't going to have to drive in that.

I'm driving to the Nashville Airport tomorrow to drop my SIL off so she can fly back to Dallas, TX. She's been staying with Bonnie's mom for about a week. Her husband was in a meeting in Southern California somewhere. She flew in on Southwest.

Looks like we are fixing to have a bunch of days in the 40's and then back up into the 50's. March is my month and what usually happens is that it starts off cold and then about halfway through we start getting some 60 degree days thrown in there. We are in the "mid-South" but a lot of our weather gets blown in from the Midwest. In the summer when it's so blasted hot we get whatever the Midwest is getting. Believe it or not Georgia has better Summer weather than we do. It was cooler in Georgia during the summer than it was here. Last summer was brutal.

If I wasn't so emotionally attached to my wife I'd go stay with my brother up in Northern Michigan. I could spend the whole summer up there if I wanted to. My brother wouldn't care a bit.

Art

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Author: 307wolverine Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673106 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 12:32 AM
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Jesus Was a Buddhist Monk BBC Documentary

Jesus survived the Crucifixion, moved to Kashmir, and is buried in Roza Bal. To the Romans, the punishment was the Crucifixion itself, not necessarily death. There is documentation of people surviving Crucifixion. Of course, with useless hands and feet, it wouldn't be much of a life, but people survived the ordeal.

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Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 12:33 AM
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"But is that the way to go? I mean, think about it...fusing one's vetebrae?! Sounds ghoulish to me." - Catherine


Doctors are only human. In any surgery there is always what I call the "whoops" factor. There aren't any guarantees. And I'm not talking about dying on the table. What I'm worried about is waking up and being more f**ked up than when they knocked me out. There is a certain amount of risk inherent in any surgery.

My plan is to wait till I can't stand it and/or I can't get around anymore. When I can't stand up and/or can't walk.... that is when I'll throw in the towel and say "okay, lets' do it."

Art

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Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 12:42 AM
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"If we need stuff imprinted on our whatever, why not just program it in? The same questions are at the core of every philosophy somewhere." - lowstudent
-----------------------

It may be happening "all at once" and in the "blink of an eye." We may just perceive it as happening slow so that we have the essential emotional response to life in order to remember those memories. Remember there is a connection between emotion and memories. No one understood time like Albert Einstein and look what he says about it.

Some physicists believe that our perception of time is incorrect.

"Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion." - Albert Einstein

"At its deeper level reality is a sort of superhologram in which the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously." - David Bohm

"...time is an illusion. The phenomena from which we deduce its existence are real, but we interpret them wrongly…" (from Julian Barbour, PhD physicist 1999)

"I felt an understanding about life, what it was, is. As if it was a dream in itself. It's so very hard to explain this part. I'll try, but my words limit the fullness of it. I don't have the words here, but I understood that it really didn't matter what happened in the life experience, I knew/understood that it was intense, brief, but when we were in it, it seemed like forever. I understood that whatever happened in life, I was really ok, and so were the others here." - excerpt from Michelle M's NDE, http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experiences/michelle_m%27s_nd...

Art

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673114 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 12:46 AM
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"you are aware that straight couples do anal sex too." - luckydog


Yeah, I've heard about that but not us nice Church of Christ types. It is not in our repertoire. I don't see the point?

Art

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673116 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 12:53 AM
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"LOL! That's what I've been thinking since Art introduced his theory about the education of the soul is too important, blah blah blah. We either have free will or we don't. If we don't, then just program in the duality and separation business and be done with it." - catherine


It has to do with emotion. Remember there is a very strong connection between emotion and memory. The more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates. The soul has to have it's own individual lessons so that it can be thoroughly imprinted with what it needs to learn.

I read an NDE one time where the woman said that we here in the Physical Universe can't begin to comprehend the feelings of oneness and connectedness in heaven. It's impossible to "become" a separate, unique individual - learn what it means and how it feels to be separate - while living in heaven. It has to be done here. Same with time and space (which is closely related to separation).

Everything may be happening "all at once" and very quickly only while "here" we perceive it as happening slow but in actuality it happened in the blink of an eye compared to eternity.

I just wrote a post about it so if you are really interested just read it and think about it.

Art

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673117 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 12:54 AM
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Lincoln couldn't figure out what the reason was (duality and separation) but he believed God was in control and had a reason for keeping the War going.

Why would Lincoln wonder about anything? Duality and separation is the reason for everything imaginable that anyone experiences. I can't think of a single thing--even stubbing my toe--that isn't duality and separation. Duality and separation is certainly the reason why I do anything, including brushing my teeth and taking the garbage cans to the street.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673118 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 1:00 AM
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We either have free will or we don't. If we don't, then just program in the duality and separation business and be done with it.

It has to do with emotion. Remember there is a very strong connection between emotion and memory.

Program that in, too. Easy peasy.

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673119 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 1:04 AM
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"To the Romans, the punishment was the Crucifixion itself, not necessarily death. There is documentation of people surviving Crucifixion. Of course, with useless hands and feet, it wouldn't be much of a life, but people survived the ordeal." wolverine


Mmmmm? That's interesting. I never heard that before. I'm thinking Jesus had an NDE up there and came back talking about the Kingdom of Heaven and what it was like.

Art

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Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 1:09 AM
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"Why would Lincoln wonder about anything?" - catherine


Cause I didn't live back then to explain it to him. If I had then he wouldn't have to wonder. He would have known that the deep hidden spiritual reason the Civil War happened was so lot of families would experience lots of duality and separation.

The more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates.

Art

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Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 1:11 AM
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"Program that in, too. Easy peasy." - catherine


That is what is happening. We just perceive it as happening slowly so that it has time to sink in.

Art

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673122 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 2:45 AM
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We just perceive it as happening slowly so that it has time to sink in.

Program the sinking in, too. Nuthin' to it.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673124 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 6:30 AM
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It may be happening "all at once" and in the "blink of an eye." We may just perceive it as happening slow so that we have the essential emotional response to life in order to remember those memories. Remember there is a connection between emotion and memories. No one understood time like Albert Einstein and look what he says about it.
__________________________

Simply too much wasted motion for any relatively mature system. Even in the blink of an eye. It's kind of like if you want to squish a penny, you can build a really really big funnel, and place pebble in it, until the penny is flattened, or you can just put it on a train track and come back in a second, or you can have one of those machines where you pay 50 cents and turn the crank.
All of those are done for fun
If your purpose is to crank out flat pennies, you would just mint them that way.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673127 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 8:06 AM
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If your purpose is to crank out flat pennies, you would just mint them that way.

Exactly. If there's no free will, then just create the entire scenario precisely as you want it and poof! there you are. Fait accompli.

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673138 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 9:48 AM
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"Exactly. If there's no free will, then just create the entire scenario precisely as you want it and poof! there you are. Fait accompli." Catherine


That may be what is going on. We just perceive it as happening slowly.

Art

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Author: icono5 Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673146 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 11:01 AM
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You put those like telegraph in an awkward position, CC. He apparently holds to the philosophy of abject "what's mine is mine" individualism that most on this board do. But he clearly doesn't believe in the redeeming, bail-out, I'm-saved-in-the-end-anyway provision of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. So you see his dilemma?

And now back to your regularly scheduled echo-chambering . . .

Steve
--------------------------------------------

CCinOC: "See, namkato, telegraph will come along and castigate you for quoting from insightful sources, even as he doesn't think they were inspired sources. Why? Because telegraph is hostile to anything but secular humanism. telegraph thinks Man is omnipotent. Man is all; there's room for nothing else. His religion is secular humanism--which is just as much bull as the bi-bull (his word; not mine) he despises."

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Author: icono5 Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673149 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 11:25 AM
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Though it's tempting to jump to "either/or" propositions, your post demonstrates how quickly that decision closes down fruitful discussion. Nothing in namkato's posts suggests that refuting the philosophical standing of free will means believing in pre-programming. What most of the highlighted thinkers point to are the strong roles of all sorts of mediating influences which make pure "free will" problematic. Other people, social conditions, market forces, and the list goes on interminably.

Many of our decisions are, in a broad sense, socially constructed. (Again, that does _not_ mean that our individual acts of will and cognition are irrelevant.) That fact is threatening only if we insist that human beings are not naturally interdependent. Yep: and that's where all of the silly "socialist," "Marxist," "commie" invectives begin to fly. I can see a few in the air already . . . ;-)

Steve
-----------------------------

<<no free will advocate has linked any evidence that it does exist,>>

"Except your own decisions, day to day. You can't be serious that you think what you do from minute to minute is pre-programmed.

Why is it important for you to believe this?"

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673151 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 11:36 AM
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when anyone posts a laundry list of 20 'quotes' taking things out of context....

it's simply BS....you can take 20 quotes from Shakespeare and say that's how you should live your life. Duh!....


- - - -
"telegraph will come along and castigate you for quoting from insightful sources, even as he doesn't think they were inspired sources."


Duh!....you contradict yourself. If you think that I don't think they are 'inspired sources', why would anyone get upset for your silly comment about 'insightful sources' when you cherry pick quotes?

----------



"Because telegraph is hostile to anything but secular humanism."


No...you can believe in any godthingies you want. Just don't foist your superstitions on me, ask me to 'honor' them or give them any preference, and don't get upset if I think of you as pretty silly in the 21st century in believing in 4000 BC myths.


-----------

" telegraph thinks Man is omnipotent."

NOpe, we're all going to die, just like every other animal. Obviously, if I was omnipotent, there'd be no Nanny State, there'd be no immigration problems, there'd be no drug problems, and churches wouldn't be tax exempt.

I'd also live forever and be 21 forever.


--------



"Man is all; there's room for nothing else."

Well..good....I hope the vampires don't rise again...or the dinosaurs......or monsters from reconstituted ancient DNA...


-------


" His religion is secular humanism--"


Nope...tele has no 'religion' because a religion is a belief in a superstitious mythical 'super natural being(s)'.....by definition.


t.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673152 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 11:38 AM
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He apparently holds to the philosophy of abject "what's mine is mine" individualism that most on this board do.

What do you mean "what's mine is mine?" I don't hold to that. I hold that you should be able to do with your money whatever you wish--including giving it to anyone else you wish for whatever reason you wish. I object to YOU taking MY money and doing with it what YOU wish.

tele has a religion, too. It's called secular humanism.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673155 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 11:45 AM
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Just don't foist your superstitions on me, ask me to 'honor' them or give them any preference, and don't get upset if I think of you as pretty silly in the 21st century in believing in 4000 BC myths.

Fair 'nuff. Who's foisting anything on you? Whoever they are, they should stop. Atheists should work on religious holidays then, right?

tele has no 'religion' because a religion is a belief in a superstitious mythical 'super natural being(s)'.....by definition.

There are several definitions for "religion" including: A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673158 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 11:55 AM
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"He apparently holds to the philosophy of abject "what's mine is mine" individualism that most on this board do."

You bet.


This is the RETIRE EARLY board...


Not the 'your money really doesn't belong to you ....the government helped you earn it' board.......as is entitled to redistribute it as it sees fit - board



t.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673159 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 11:56 AM
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"Fair 'nuff. Who's foisting anything on you? Whoever they are, they should stop."



Yes....let's take the religious jingles off the national currency which EVERYONE uses.

I'm glad you agree.


t.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673162 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 12:00 PM
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" Who's foisting anything on you? Whoever they are, they should stop. Atheists should work on religious holidays then, right?"


A day off is a day off. Really...


Thanksgiving? Not a religious holiday. A day to celebrate the harvest.....


EID? I don't know of anyone who gets it off in this country.

EAster Sunday? I don't know of too many who work Sundays other than the 24/7 type jobs like police on the beat, firefighters, medical, fast food, etc.


FOurth of July?

Memorial day?


So it is down to xmas.... usually the 3rd or 4th day after the Winter Solstice....which was celebrated for millenia in hundreds of cultures.... the xtians just turned it into their holiday to compete against the Roman holiday of Saturnalia.....

And no...since business shuts down.....most folks aren't going to be able to work.



t.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673164 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 12:02 PM
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"There are several definitions for "religion" including: A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. "


Yeah..I forgot....

Global Warming Hoax fits that definition.




t.

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673166 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 12:09 PM
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"There are several definitions for "religion" including: A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. "


Yeah..I forgot....

Global Warming Hoax fits that definition.


So does socialism. It's an extreme case in that people believe in it not merely in the absence of evidence, but in the presence of a huge amount of evidence that it's false.

But there are several widely recognized religions that either are explicitly atheistic or are silent on the subject of deities. Among them: Indian Buddhism (but not Chinese or Southeast Asian Buddhism), Confucianism, and Taoism.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673172 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 12:32 PM
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Yeah..I forgot....Global Warming Hoax fits that definition.

That's right, it does. Your relentless rants about religion make you every bit as zealous as the global warming proponents.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673174 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 12:34 PM
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But there are several widely recognized religions that either are explicitly atheistic or are silent on the subject of deities. Among them: Indian Buddhism (but not Chinese or Southeast Asian Buddhism), Confucianism, and Taoism.

True 'nuff. In that case, add secular humanism to the list.

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Author: icono5 Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673199 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 5:31 PM
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"tele has a religion, too. It's called secular humanism.": CCinOC
-----------

I know this is a wildly popular strategy with social conservatives, but--as with so many speculative claims--saying so doesn't make it true. And I'm just referring to the conflation of religion and secular humanism; I'm sure tele will launch or has launched his own rebuttal to being "smeared" with the humanist brush. Lol.

The majority of secular humanists were raised with lots of God-talk--such, still, is the bent of this nation. But few fundamentalists seem to have any clue about the particulars of secular humanism. Go ahead, read up! Enjoy! As a truth-seeker, you'll want--no doubt--to broaden your education.

secularhumanism.org (a good starting point among many, many possible sources)

Steve

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Author: icono5 Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673201 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 5:37 PM
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"So does socialism. It's an extreme case in that people believe in it not merely in the absence of evidence, but in the presence of a huge amount of evidence that it's false."
-------------------

You are able, of course, to provide a widely agreed-upon, academic definition of "socialism"? And no, the wild rantings of fellow echo-chamberers don't qualify. Here's guessing that your working definition bears little connection to the understandings of political scientists--but then, they are pesky, fact-based critters.

Steve

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673207 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 6:49 PM
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I'm sure tele will launch or has launched his own rebuttal to being "smeared" with the humanist brush.

What's wrong with being a secular humanist? Are you ashamed of your zealotry? If you're going to do something--rant and rave at every opportunity about religion, which is the definition of a secular humanist--don't be ashamed of it. If you're ashamed of it, don't do it.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673208 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 6:56 PM
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You are able, of course, to provide a widely agreed-upon, academic definition of "socialism"? And no, the wild rantings of fellow echo-chamberers don't qualify.

Yeah, let's muddy the discussion landscape by suggesting there are so many definitions of Socialism that we can't even intelligently talk about Socialism. How about this definition by the World Socialist Movement?

Central to the meaning of socialism is common ownership. This means the resources of the world being owned in common by the entire global population.

But does it really make sense for everybody to own everything in common? Of course, some goods tend to be for personal consumption, rather than to share--clothes, for example. People 'owning' certain personal possessions does not contradict the principle of a society based upon common ownership.

In practice, common ownership will mean everybody having the right to participate in decisions on how global resources will be used. It means nobody being able to take personal control of resources, beyond their own personal possessions. [...]

Production under socialism would be directly and solely for use. With the natural and technical resources of the world held in common and controlled democratically, the sole object of production would be to meet human needs. This would entail an end to buying, selling and money. Instead, we would take freely what we had communally produced. The old slogan of "from each according to ability, to each according to needs" would apply.


I already posted the famous soliloquy of the tramp from Atlas Shrugged in rebuttal to Socialism, but it bears repeating. Please read it carefully.

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=34443

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Author: namkato Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673215 of 734557
Subject: Re: Whose the daddy? Date: 2/26/2013 9:48 PM
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Doctors are only human. In any surgery there is always what I call the "whoops" factor. There aren't any guarantees. And I'm not talking about dying on the table. What I'm worried about is waking up and being more f**ked up than when they knocked me out. There is a certain amount of risk inherent in any surgery.

My plan is to wait till I can't stand it and/or I can't get around anymore. When I can't stand up and/or can't walk.... that is when I'll throw in the towel and say "okay, lets' do it."

Art
=====================================================

Total Hip Replacement is the number one highest satisfaction surgery of all. My brother thought the same way you do about it, but after he finally had it, he said he should not have waited nearly as long. Back surgery is a different matter entirely, but like I said, with two new hips, your back might fix itself.

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