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Author: WendyBG Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Winner! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 22719  
Subject: Why blame anti-Islam film on Jews? Date: 9/14/2012 8:15 PM
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The Wall Street Journal attributed the anti-Islam film, "Innocence of Muslims," to an Israeli living in America and financed by Jews. This uncritical publication of a falsehood was a sign that people are willing to blame Jews for all kinds of problems, especially ones attacking Islam.

Even before the story was debunked, the Israeli government called the filmmaker a "total loose cannon and complete idiot."

The truth is that the film was made by a Coptic Christian. To make the horrible situation of spreading Muslim riots even worse, a Hindu troublemaker in Canada is planning to screen the film in Toronto in addition to other provocations against Muslims.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/15/world/middleeast/anti-amer...

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/updates-on-prote...

All these people are extremely dangerous.

Why blame it on the Jews? Leave us out of it!

Wendy
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Author: maniladad Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22074 of 22719
Subject: Re: Why blame anti-Islam film on Jews? Date: 9/27/2012 3:55 AM
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Hi Wendy, just saw your post from 9/14 on "Innocence of Muslims". Your point was that news media who should have done a better job of checking the facts reported that an Israeli was behind the film. I'm sure you know that this was just part of a number of erroneous reports that came out initially, largely due to the lies of the man who produced it. I'm also sure you know that this is just another example of the reprehensible rush to get into print/on the air as soon as possible. No need to feel persecuted for your ethnicity here.
I watched a number of the trailers for the film available on Youtube. Besides being a really tawdry production, on the level of a cheap porno film, it truly is insulting to Mohammed and I can understand why Muslims are outraged by it. It is hard to imagine how it could have been made more offensive. That's not to justify the Muslims' violence in response to the film but only to acknowledge their emotional reaction. The young man who was acting the part could just as easily be portraying Jesus. In fact, all that would be necessary is to dub in slightly different dialogue. If that were done, I am sure that Christians would be equally offended. If the role were somehow changed to represent say, Abraham, no doubt the Jews would be also. The movie is an intentionally rude, crude, insulting, offensive piece of trash. It's enough to make me long for the days of "I know pornography when I see it."
Of course it is wrong to blame the US or Israel or anyone else for the actions of one or a few individuals. But the outrage that followed the attacks on Sept 11, 2001 was almost as equally unqualified against Muslims in general as the attacks following the film were against Westerners. And we consider ourselves to be better educated, more sophisticated, more civilized than they.
I can't defend the majority of Muslims for failing to oppose the jihadists who wish to destroy all infidels but neither can I condemn them. Like most of us, they're not heroes, just ordinary people who want to live their lives as peacefully as possible.
And you might reasonably respond, "Just like the Germans in the 1930's." Exactly. And any of us might be able to say, "And when they came for me, there was no one left to protest." What would have been nice to see was for all of the nations to condemn the movie for what it is and the violence for what it is. So far I haven't seen any of that.
Shalom
D

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Author: maniladad Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22075 of 22719
Subject: Re: Why blame anti-Islam film on Jews? Date: 9/27/2012 4:01 AM
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Hi Wendy, just saw your post from 9/14 on "Innocence of Muslims". Your point was that news media who should have done a better job of checking the facts reported that an Israeli was behind the film. I'm sure you know that this was just part of a number of erroneous reports that came out initially, largely due to the lies of the man who produced it. I'm also sure you know that this is just another example of the reprehensible rush to get into print/on the air as soon as possible. No need to feel persecuted for your ethnicity here.
I watched a number of the trailers for the film available on Youtube. Besides being a really tawdry production, on the level of a cheap porno film, it truly is insulting to Mohammed and I can understand why Muslims are outraged by it. It is hard to imagine how it could have been made more offensive. That's not to justify the Muslims' violence in response to the film but only to acknowledge their emotional reaction. The young man who was acting the part could just as easily be portraying Jesus. In fact, all that would be necessary is to dub in slightly different dialogue. If that were done, I am sure that Christians would be equally offended. If the role were somehow changed to represent say, Abraham, no doubt the Jews would be also. The movie is an intentionally rude, crude, insulting, offensive piece of trash. It's enough to make me long for the days of "I know pornography when I see it."
Of course it is wrong to blame the US or Israel or anyone else for the actions of one or a few individuals. But the outrage that followed the attacks on Sept 11, 2001 was almost as equally unqualified against Muslims in general as the attacks following the film were against Westerners. And we consider ourselves to be better educated, more sophisticated, more civilized than they. It seems to be a failing of human nature that it is easier to blame an all-inclusive "them" than a more selective 'him' or 'those few.'
I can't defend the majority of Muslims for failing to oppose the jihadists who wish to destroy all infidels but neither can I condemn them. Like most of us, they're not heroes, just ordinary people who want to live their lives as peacefully as possible.
And you might reasonably respond, "Just like the Germans in the 1930's." Exactly. And any of us might someday be able to say, "And when they came for me, there was no one left to protest." What would have been nice to see was for all of the nations to condemn the movie for what it is and the violence for what it is. Instead all I've seen is a carefully calibrated, politically safe response.
Shalom
D

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22076 of 22719
Subject: Re: Why blame anti-Islam film on Jews? Date: 9/27/2012 1:22 PM
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I can understand why Muslims are outraged by it.

Really? Enraged! Have you ever seen Jews or Christians enraged by similar depictions against their religions? Have you ever even seen Christians or Jews simultaneously rise up in peaceful demonstrations all over the world in response to a movie or cartoon?

Here are a couple of examples of "offensive" films -
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079470/
Was the British embassy attacked and set on fire in response to this film which mocks Jesus?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0815241/
Was Bill Maher sent to prison for producing this anti-religious film?

And I won't even try to present the countless antisemitic cartoons that keep popping up repeatedly, or the regular sermons by Imams quoting the Koran in portraying Jews as sons of monkeys and pigs. Have you seen any expressions of rage in response, other than mild mannered newspaper articles condemning the insult in the "strongest possible words" without really using any strong words?

Millions of Muslims came out in violent demonstrations all over the world because they have been educated that savage behavior is an acceptable norm.

No, I don't think it's understandable.

Elan

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Author: maniladad Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22077 of 22719
Subject: Re: Why blame anti-Islam film on Jews? Date: 9/28/2012 4:08 PM
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Hi Elan, 
  "Have you ever seen Jews or Christians enraged by similar depictions against their religions?" First response: Some, but the majority aren't committed enough to do more than grumble. But Christians do bomb women's health clinics and kill health care providers because they believe on religious grounds that abortions are murder. Second: I think that there is another element than religion behind the rage. I'm not knowledgeable enough about the Middle East to know the reasons but I suspect it involves the perception of having been neglected and ignored, discriminated against and cheated by foreigners and foreign governments who, among other things, support oppressive regimes because of self-interest. Why else, they might reason, do the foreigners have so much when they have so little? Third, enraged and outraged are very different although not mutually exclusive states of mind. 
"Was the British embassy attacked and set on fire in response to this film which mocks Jesus?" (Life of Brian) First response: Guess I'm not a very good Christian. I thought Life of Brian was funny. Second: 'Brian' was about a man who specifically says he's not the Messiah. "Innocence of Muslims" shows a man who is specifically identified as Mohammed giving cunnilingus, making a donkey Muslim, abetting or committing sexual abuse of children and homosexual acts (I'm not sure about that last part; I just watched a few trailers.), and generally portrayed as a lecher, a coward and a buffoon. It is not a parody, it is deliberately insulting. I was personally outraged by it and I'm not Muslim. (Candidly, I admit that if it were not such a tawdry piece of crap and funny I might have been less offended.) I can understand why Muslims are offended, especially those who are uneducated, unsophisticated and/or committed to their faith as it has been taught to them. It's something of a curse that I have, being able to see things from other people's viewpoints. If you really get into it, you begin to see the justification for any number of absolutely reprehensible actions and beliefs.
"Was Bill Maher sent to prison for producing this anti-religious film?" (Religuous) First response: No, through our courts we have made 'freedom of expression' a higher principle than morality, decency, and other virtues espoused by most religions, as well as more social considerations such as good taste. Second: Jesus was anti-religious, based on his view of the status of the religion in his time and area. He was in direct, confrontational opposition to the religious leaders, to the way in which religion was applied and to the effects of both. I think that He might have appreciated Bill Maher's pointing out some of the absurdities that have become associated with modern Christianity. Jesus's teachings were pretty basic, simple, practical and possible and if (a really big IF) they were practiced by all men we might see the Kingdom of God here on earth. The things that Bill Maher ridicules have been added on; many aspects of most if not all religions deserve to be ridiculed.
"... the countless antisemitic cartoons..." Look, I was born a WASP male  heterosexual and I admit that I am almost oblivious to the prejudice that affects members of other ethnic, religious, gender, sexual preference or economic groups. No one ever attempted to wipe out my entire race. (Some Muslims are advocating the annihilation of my entire race and religious cohorts but at present it seems unlikely that they will succeed and that makes a big difference.) I can understand to some extent how Jews must feel but there are some things that you have to experience to fully understand, and I can't make myself feel that way. And yes, of course, persecution of and discrimination against any group is wrong.
"... the regular sermons by Imams quoting the Koran in portraying Jews as sons of monkeys and pigs..." I made a sincere effort to read the Koran but without the cultural and religious background I couldn't get through it on my own. I don't really know what the Koran says or doesn't say. I remember that in the Old Testament God is displeased when the Jews don't obey his instructions to kill all the captured women, children and livestock of the conquered non-Jews. New Testament Christianity is about love, not hate, tolerance, not discrimination. My bias is that love will prevail through either the extinction of doctrines and religions that preach hatred or, as with Christianity, through the cessation of the emphasis on those aspects of the religions. I hope that my bias in this is more accurate than my bias in the stock market has been.
"Millions of Muslims came out in violent demonstrations all over the world because they have been educated that savage behavior is an acceptable norm." I doubt that there were millions. Maybe hundreds of thousands but not millions. The violent minority always gets the majority of the attention. As I noted above, I think the reasons behind the demonstrations and the violence are more complex than that.
"No, I don't think it's understandable." Understanding is very different from condoning. Overall, I agree with you.
 D


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