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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 195810  
Subject: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Christmas Date: 11/18/2012 6:03 PM
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Since it's all about the birth of Christ, the life of Christ, and the death of Christ for the salvation of those who believe in Him? He is God.
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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184306 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/18/2012 6:29 PM
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Odd (well, not for you, "Josh")to lump atheists and liberals together.
Or is this rhetorical question posed to all people you don't like?

Well, then:

For liberals, at least in America, most of them probably are Christians.

For atheists, it's also a secular holiday.

Ranks right up there with Independence Day, and Veterans Day, as they haven't even moved it to a Monday yet.

Bill

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184307 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/18/2012 7:16 PM
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JoshRandall: "Since it's all about the birth of Christ, the life of Christ, and the death of Christ for the salvation of those who believe in Him?"

One out of three is not bad.

Of coure, the Christian simply "stole" (co-opted) an existing holiday - winter solstice

See e.g.,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice

http://www.fashion-era.com/Christmas/christmas_customs_holly...

http://wicca.com/celtic/akasha/yule.htm

etc., plenty more out there if yhou cared to learn.

JAFO

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Author: GardenStateFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184309 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/19/2012 8:34 AM
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Since it's all about the birth of Christ, the life of Christ, and the death of Christ for the salvation of those who believe in Him? He is God.

I was raised Jewish. However, all my friends celebrated Christmas, as my town had very few Jews.

So I celebrated Hanukkah in my home and Christmas with my friends.

No one expected me to worship Jesus, though most years I went to fish dinners and midnight mass with my friends on Christmas Eve.

I was always invited to Christmas dinners and celebrations.

I married a man who was raised Catholic and it's his tradition as well.

So for me, I celebrate it in the same spirit which it has always been for me, a nice holiday that allows me to make wonderful memories with people I love.

GSF

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184310 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/19/2012 10:59 AM
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I just like all the "happy lights." :)

AM

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184311 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/19/2012 11:39 AM
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For me and 1poorlady, it's a few days off work. Keep in mind that 1pl is Christian. But she rightly points out that it isn't really Jesus' birthday, and that it is in fact just a pagan holiday with various pagan traditions (e.g. the Christmas tree, Santa Claus, etc). It is therefore very anti-Christian to observe it. (She won't go as far as to say "not real Christians", but she does say "false religion" sometimes.)

I can take it or leave it, myself. Though I dread the onslaught of Christmas music that is hanging over us like the Sword of Damocles.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184312 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/19/2012 11:41 AM
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I can take it or leave it, myself. Though I dread the onslaught of Christmas music that is hanging over us like the Sword of Damocles.



I like Christmas music.
Except, of course, for that monotonous, horrid, irritating "Little Drummer Boy". Puke.

AM

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184313 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/19/2012 12:36 PM
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For me and 1poorlady, it's a few days off work. Keep in mind that 1pl is Christian. But she rightly points out that it isn't really Jesus' birthday, and that it is in fact just a pagan holiday with various pagan traditions (e.g. the Christmas tree, Santa Claus, etc). It is therefore very anti-Christian to observe it. (She won't go as far as to say "not real Christians", but she does say "false religion" sometimes.)


This part is not true. The early Christians intentionally borrowed the pagan holiday from their culture. They knew what they were doing. It is called "Christmas" after all.
It is absolutely a hybrid of a Christ centered and pagan holiday (certainly not Jesus' actual birthday) but it is overstepping to say that it is very anti-Christian to observe it.
Ray

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Author: GardenStateFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184314 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/19/2012 12:45 PM
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I like Christmas music.

I love classical Christmas music. It's less saccharine, more reverent. Handel's Messiah, not Mariah Carey.

Though I make an exception for Trans-Siberian Orchestra. LOVE them. Of course, the same guy writes some of my favorite hard-rock albums too (see: Savatage).

GSF

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184315 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/19/2012 1:23 PM
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A lot of today's traditions - Christmas tree, exchanging gifts, stockings - aren't solely about Christ and a couple of them are more about worshipping Santa Claus than Jesus Christ.

I think a lot of people take the 'fun' aspects of it, and leave religion out. I'm not Hindu, but I wish Holi would become more popular in the US, as pelting and getting pelted with power dye sure looks like fun!

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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184316 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/19/2012 2:21 PM
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(GSF:)I was raised Jewish. However, all my friends celebrated Christmas, as my town had very few Jews. So I celebrated Hanukkah in my home and Christmas with my friends.

No one expected me to worship Jesus, though most years I went to fish dinners and midnight mass with my friends on Christmas Eve.

=============================
Wow. You're older than I would have guessed, if you remember Christmas Eve being a meatless day for Catholics. It always seemed so silly to me. The Church decreed it as a day of penance, in anticipation of the feast day of Christmas. So Catholics "made do" with lobster and caviar, in many cases. Penance, indeed. In my wife's family, oyster stew was a tradition. In mine, it was finan haddie (Scotch-or-Irish-style smoked fish. Just like lox, only Irish.)

Bill

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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184317 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/19/2012 2:26 PM
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The early Christians intentionally borrowed the pagan holiday from their culture. They knew what they were doing. It is called "Christmas" after all.
===============================
Sort of like Louis Armstrong, who didn't know his real birthday, so he picked July 4. That way, his birthday was observed with fireworks, at no additional cost.

Bill

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184319 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/19/2012 3:21 PM
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...but it is overstepping to say that it is very anti-Christian to observe it.

That wasn't me. Tell her and her sect. They are quite adamant about it. They regard Christmas as pagan, not Christian, and so they shun it.

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184320 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/19/2012 3:56 PM
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That wasn't me. Tell her and her sect. They are quite adamant about it. They regard Christmas as pagan, not Christian, and so they shun it.

Do you want me to call her, or should I email?
just kidding. I disagree. I have no issue whatsoever with celebrating Christ's birth. Spiritually, I think its a fine way to redirect and take a moment to reflect.
Also, I have young children. Culturally, I think we'll celebrate with everyone else.
It is just another opportunity to sit and explain to my kids exactly why we do what we do.
Ray

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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184322 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/19/2012 4:03 PM
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..but it is overstepping to say that it is very anti-Christian to observe it.
___________________________
That wasn't me. Tell her and her sect. They are quite adamant about it. They regard Christmas as pagan, not Christian, and so they shun it.

___________________________
By chance, is she a Jehovah's Witness?
They are the only ones I've ever heard of, to take that position.
(Other than Puritans, in the days of Oliver Cromwell.)

Bill

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184323 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/19/2012 4:17 PM
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being a meatless day for Catholics. It always seemed so silly to me. The Church decreed it as a day of penance, in anticipation of the feast day of Christmas. So Catholics "made do" with lobster and caviar, in many cases. Penance, indeed.



heh. never thought of it that way, but you're right.

'meatless' was supposed to be penance, but Mom used it as an excuse to cook Fish &/or Pancakes (>


BIL's family tradition was Christmas Eve Cioppino ... which ,happy for me, he has continued.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184324 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/19/2012 6:24 PM
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I can take it or leave it, myself. Though I dread the onslaught of Christmas music that is hanging over us like the Sword of Damocles.

Christmas haunts me like the ghost of an old enemy.


http://boards.fool.com/an-open-letter-28153891.aspx

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184325 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/19/2012 6:25 PM
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I disagree.

I do, and I don't. It IS a pagan holiday with pagan customs, somehow morphed into a quasi-Christian holiday. But I certainly have no issue with anyone who wants to declare it a celebration of Jesus' birth, and engage in the assorted merriments of the season. Except for the Christmas music, it can be fun. (I do like the Mannheim Steamroller versions, and Trans Siberian Orchestra kicks some butt too!) :-)

As for contacting her, she'd probably rather do a face-to-face "study" where you can ask your questions and she'll explain it then. (And if we're going to be in KS, I'll let you know!) ;-)

1poorguy

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184326 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/19/2012 6:30 PM
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By chance, is she a Jehovah's Witness?

Give that man a cupie doll! ;-)

Yeah. I didn't really know a lot about them when we got married. Figured it was just another denomination, she didn't seem to make a big deal of it. I've learned a lot since then. What's interesting is I've heard them say that JWs should only marry JWs (the rest are either "worldly" or follow "false religion"), but she married me anyway knowing I wasn't. Almost 16 years ago.

The 'no birthdays' thing sucks, though. I always liked those.

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Author: GardenStateFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184327 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/19/2012 6:34 PM
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Wow. You're older than I would have guessed, if you remember Christmas Eve being a meatless day for Catholics. It always seemed so silly to me. The Church decreed it as a day of penance, in anticipation of the feast day of Christmas. So Catholics "made do" with lobster and caviar, in many cases. Penance, indeed. In my wife's family, oyster stew was a tradition. In mine, it was finan haddie (Scotch-or-Irish-style smoked fish. Just like lox, only Irish.)


I turned forty this year. Not sure how old you think I am! But I was raised in a town with a lot of very, very traditional/newly immigrated Italian families, and the Feast of the Seven Fishes was something many of my friends did. It was amazing, and I always enjoyed it very much.

Baccala, smelts, anchovy linguine, scungilli, octopus, smoked eel... all kinds of amazing dishes. "Seven" was a loose interpretation, it always seemed as if it were never-ending! As a "penance" day it was always overflowing with wonderful food, I could certainly appreciate that kind of penance!

GSF

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184328 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/19/2012 6:51 PM
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It IS a pagan holiday with pagan customs, somehow morphed into a quasi-Christian holiday.

But it didn't somehow morph. It was a conscious choice. They intentionally stole from the pagan holidays and made it their own. That's Christmas. It wasn't an accident.


As for contacting her, she'd probably rather do a face-to-face "study" where you can ask your questions and she'll explain it then. (And if we're going to be in KS, I'll let you know!) ;-)


That's where I'll be, and I'm easy to find.
Ray

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Author: TheMoonglade Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184330 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/19/2012 9:08 PM
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By chance, is she a Jehovah's Witness?
They are the only ones I've ever heard of, to take that position.
(Other than Puritans, in the days of Oliver Cromwell.)


Church of Christ (the "non-demoninational" southern type) also do not celebrate, although it is not forbidden as it is to Jehovah's Witnesses. To the Church of Christ, it's just another day of the year as is Easter, as Christ didn't request of his followers that they celebrate either day, just the Sabbath (which they did accept as moved to Sunday, but whatever).

Moonglade
(and yes, it's a pagan holiday...)

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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184331 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/19/2012 9:44 PM
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I turned forty this year. Not sure how old you think I am! But I was raised in a town with a lot of very, very traditional/newly immigrated Italian families, and the Feast of the Seven Fishes was something many of my friends did. It was amazing, and I always enjoyed it very much.
===============================
Actually, I had thought (correctly) that you were a good bit younger than me, until your previous post. (I'm 59 and holding, for now - which makes me exempt from Lenten fasting for the first time.)

The no-meat on Christmas Eve rule went out with Vatican II (mid-1960s), and most Catholics I know dropped that tradition like a rock.

Bill

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184332 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/20/2012 3:20 PM
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Actually, I had thought (correctly) that you were a good bit younger than me, until your previous post. (I'm 59 and holding, for now - which makes me exempt from Lenten fasting for the first time.)

The no-meat on Christmas Eve rule went out with Vatican II (mid-1960s), and most Catholics I know dropped that tradition like a rock.

Bill


We still have friends that do the 7 fish dinner on Christmas Eve.

They're Romanian Orthodox. I think it's more tradition than anything.

I'm not quite as old as you, but it's splitting hairs at our stage.

-Methuselah

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Author: dianakalt Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184333 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 11/20/2012 6:06 PM
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I think a lot of people take the 'fun' aspects of it, and leave religion out. I'm not Hindu, but I wish Holi would become more popular in the US, as pelting and getting pelted with power dye sure looks like fun!


They have this all over in the US. It's called the Color Run. :)

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Author: Mark12547 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184453 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/1/2012 5:19 AM
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Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Christmas

Since it's all about the birth of Christ, the life of Christ, and the death of Christ for the salvation of those who believe in Him? He is God.


Have you seen the Christmas specials or listened to the music played by the "Atheists and Liberals"?

While Christ may be mentioned in some of the specials and songs, He is usually delegated to a minor part (e.g., in Charlie Brown's Christmas, in the whole show, only the little bit about Christ is read from one of the gospels, and it is a dry reading by one of the characters, no context, no relevance presented on what it means to us today, and I bet more people remember the sad Christmas tree more than the reading of the gospel Christmas story).

Judging from the songs I hear and the specials I have seen listed and watched in the past, the meaning of Christmas is:

- Santa (naughty & nice list, workshop, his history, his delivery of toys, but very little focusing on his trespassing, Peeping Tom behaviors beyond the Naughty and Nice List)

- Gifts (A Christmas Story, Alvin and the Chipmunks Christmas Song)

- Snow (Let it snow, sleighs, sleigh bells, jingle bells, but not jingle bobs that dance on the rowels of spurs, at least I never heard carolers sing "I Have Spurs That Jingle, Jangle, Jingle"), Snow men

- Gifts

- Lights & decorations

- Gifts

- Ghosts (A Christmas Carol and the umpteen variations and takes that various shows and movies have on that)

- Gifts

- Romance (like the bulk of the Hallmark Channel Christmas movie airings)

- Gifts

- Family gatherings

- Gifts

- Parties

- Gifts

- Flying reindeer and a glowing nose.

- Gifts

- Angels at work (e.g., It's a Wonderful Life)

- Gifts

- Heist thrillers (first three Die Hard movies)

- Gifts

- oh yes, a little mention about Christ, especially if you visit a Bible-believing church Christmas eve or Christmas morning.

Did I mention gifts? That and dazzling lights and beautiful decorations seem to capture the imagination and hearts of the children without any need to bring Christ into the picture.

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Author: JavaRunner Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184454 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/1/2012 6:57 AM
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Did I mention gifts? That and dazzling lights and beautiful decorations seem to capture the imagination and hearts of the children without any need to bring Christ into the picture.
========================================================================


So celebrate Christmas the way you want. This is what kills me about this nonsense of the so-called "War on Christmas" the people yelling the most are probably the ones doing all the things you just mentioned. So don't give gifts. Don't mention Santa. Turn off the non-religious songs. There is no one way to celebrate the holiday. In your lives YOU control how you celebrate.

The FACT is Christ is not ignored during the holidays. It just make rabid right wingers more rabid when something simply rubs them the right way.

So turn off the Michael Buble songs, stop watching "White Christmas", boycott the mall, and head off to church and celebrate. No one is stopping anyone from doing this.

As for me....I love ALL the holidays offer, and I still manage to celebrate in a religious way. GEESH!

Charlie

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184455 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/1/2012 9:22 AM
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Chistmas has become more about commericalism and obligatory "giving."

Society celebrate the sacrament of "giving" to little kids, who are often saddened if they don't get enough gifts. It's all about pleasing little selfish imps.

We should be teaching our kids that it is not about receiving "gifts."

"It is more blessed to give than to receive."

Who is teaching their little darlings during Christmas about giving and what that quote means and who said it?

Not too many I fear.

Jess gimme my free stuff!

Secularism rules the day as we celebrate the real meaning of Christmas, that Christ died for the sins of the world, not for satifying the selfish wants of little imps.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184456 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/1/2012 10:59 AM
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celebrate the real meaning of Christmas, that Christ died for the sins of the world



You've got Christmas confused with Easter. Sounds like you need to brush up on your basics.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184457 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/1/2012 11:27 AM
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- Gifts (A Christmas Story,


This is probably the most unvarnished and truly accurate depiction of Christmas in the United States that has ever been put to film.


AM

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184485 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/2/2012 4:53 AM
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That wasn't me. Tell her and her sect. They are quite adamant about it. They regard Christmas as pagan, not Christian, and so they shun it.
It was the Romans and Roman Emperors who actually co-opted it, and yes, it's essentially a Mithraic pagan holiday with Christianity grafted onto it.

Mithras was a very strong early rival of Christianity and many of Mithras' rituals and structures were adopted by early Christians to try and win over followers and make the theological transition a bit easier to take. The feast of "Sol Invictus" on December 25th, practiced by Aurelian and many others in the Roman Empire was adopted as both the birthday of Mithras and Christ.

Mithras (the bull) is fascinating, as he is very Jesus-like in his description. He was born on December 25th from a virgin (Anahita). He was placed in a manger and attended by shepherds. He was considered a great traveling teacher and master. As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace. He ascended to heaven (And more...)

Me, I think the adoption of Christmas as Jesus' birthday was a PR move by early Christians to convert Mithraic followers to Christ. And hey, it worked! Not many Mithraic mystery cult followers around any more.

As a non-Christian I like the Christmas spirit of the holiday, except for the songs, which I get very tired of.

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184490 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/3/2012 10:25 AM
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Mithras (the bull) is fascinating, as he is very Jesus-like in his description. He was born on December 25th from a virgin (Anahita). He was placed in a manger and attended by shepherds.

From the Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries#Birth_from_a...

Mithras is depicted as being born from a rock. He is shown as emerging from a rock, already in his youth, with a dagger in one hand and a torch in the other. He is nude, is wearing a Phrygian cap and is holding his legs together.[44]

Maybe this is depicting the ressurrection?

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184582 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/12/2012 11:51 AM
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So Catholics "made do" with lobster and caviar, in many cases. Penance, indeed.

FWIW, a few generations back the domestic help protested against having to eat lobster so many days per week. It used to be considered poor people food.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_food



My family celebrates Christmas. I'm not entirely sure Santa Claus can equate to a celebration of Jesus. Back when I was a Christian, my church was heavily against that version of Christmas.

Which makes me wonder: If a good Christian shouldn't have Santa, and (according to Josh) a non-Christian shouldn't have Santa... who exactly has Santa?


Frydaze1

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184584 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/12/2012 12:47 PM
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<<
Which makes me wonder: If a good Christian shouldn't have Santa, and (according to Josh) a non-Christian shouldn't have Santa... who exactly has Santa?
>>

A lot of young children.....

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184585 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/12/2012 1:05 PM
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Which makes me wonder: If a good Christian shouldn't have Santa, and (according to Josh) a non-Christian shouldn't have Santa... who exactly has Santa?




who HAS Santa and who should has two different things ..


and in the fevered mind of ........ ?

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184586 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/12/2012 1:32 PM
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who exactly has Santa?

I do, and if you want to ever see him again it'll cost you $1,000,000.

You have 48 hours to collect up the funds. Payment is to made in unmarked 100 dollar bills, stuffed into 2 Tumi Alpha extra large duffels.

We'll contact you in 2 days with instructions for delivery, and NO COPS.

You don't do exactly as we say and we start sending you pieces of Santa's beard.

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184587 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/12/2012 2:04 PM
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I do, and if you want to ever see him again it'll cost you $1,000,000.

One MEELyon dollars? That's all? Bwahahahahaha, bwahahahaha, ...

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/12/2012 3:42 PM
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One MEELyon dollars? That's all? Bwahahahahaha, bwahahahaha, ...

And I want sharks with laser beams on their heads.

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184589 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/12/2012 4:49 PM
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Don't you think we should ask for *more* than a million dollars? A million dollars isn't exactly a lot of money these days.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184590 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/12/2012 6:07 PM
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Don't you think we should ask for *more* than a million dollars? A million dollars isn't exactly a lot of money these days.

It will be after they devalue the currency next year.

Buhahahahahahahaha.

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Author: khalou Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184591 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/13/2012 1:40 AM
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I do not celebrate Christmas.

It becomes, after awhile, an incalculable list of "need to do's" that seeks only to conform to what corporations envision as their "make-up" season.

If I had small children, I would be all over it.


But I will not be bullied into worrying about how I conformed to societal expectations by such an evolving concept as Christmas. Go back even 100 years and you will find a very different holiday.

100 years from now it will once again be so unique as to be unrecognizable.

k

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184592 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/13/2012 9:03 AM
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I do not celebrate Christmas.

It becomes, after awhile, an incalculable list of "need to do's" that seeks only to conform to what corporations envision as their "make-up" season.

If I had small children, I would be all over it.


But I will not be bullied into worrying about how I conformed to societal expectations by such an evolving concept as Christmas. Go back even 100 years and you will find a very different holiday.

100 years from now it will once again be so unique as to be unrecognizable.


Merry Christmas!
Glad Tidings!
Joy to the World!
Ray

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184593 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/13/2012 9:25 AM
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I do not celebrate Christmas.

Talk about ghosts of Christmas past, welcome back old friend!
How have you been?

-Bryan

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/13/2012 11:07 AM
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Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Christmas?

A better question would be why do Christians celebrate Christmas? There is no mention in the bible of such a celebration. Jesus never advised us to follow the practice. None of the Apostles were noted to have celebrated it. But there I go again, expecting bible believing Christians to follow what the bible says, silly me.


I celebrate Christmas because it's a nice break for relaxation and fellowship with friends and relatives after a busy fall season. I used to put up a tree for the kids, I don't do that anymore. I do put up a few outdoor lights and a wreath on the front door, they look cheery and festive. I make it a point to watch "A Christmas Story", I also like "The Polar Express" and "It's a Wonderful Life".

I do not go to mass or church. I drink some beer, watch football games, sleep in, and visit with friends. But it has noting to do with Christ for me. I also celebrate Christmas to pi$$ off people like JoshRandall.

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/13/2012 11:14 AM
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Merry Christmas!
Glad Tidings!
Joy to the World!
Ray

----------------------


Ray, your response here made me smile. I can feel the genuine excitement of the season in each line. It reminds me of oh-so-many Christmas films I've seen in my life. And it prompts me to wonder: Why don't we have this same excitement and generosity of spirit during the other 11 and 1/2 months of the year?

AM

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/13/2012 11:15 AM
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I also celebrate Christmas to pi$$ off people like JoshRandall.


Now THAT's the spirit! ;o)

AM

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184597 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/13/2012 3:18 PM
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Why don't we have this same excitement and generosity of spirit during the other 11 and 1/2 months of the year?


Who doesn't?

Ray

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184598 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/13/2012 3:23 PM
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While I'm at it - my favorite song sung at this time of year is "Joy to the World"
If you listen, it isn't even about Christmas. It best describes the second coming of Christ.
Ray

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184599 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/13/2012 3:56 PM
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It best describes the second coming of Christ.

Drinking wine with a bullfrog and making love??

There's a pun there, but I'm gonna let it go...

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184600 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/13/2012 4:45 PM
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Drinking wine with a bullfrog and making love??

There's a pun there, but I'm gonna let it go...


The Prophets were animals, you know.
Jeremiah was a bullfrog.

That must have been some night.
A three dog night, no less.
Ray

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184603 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/13/2012 9:17 PM
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While I'm at it - my favorite song sung at this time of year is "Joy to the World"
If you listen, it isn't even about Christmas. It best describes the second coming of Christ.


You know, I don't think so:

"Joy to the world! The Lord is come"

Not will come or did come.

I like this one:

Let there be peace on earth
And let it begin with me.
Let there be peace on earth
The peace that was meant to be.
With God as our father
Brothers all are we.
Let me walk with my brother
In perfect harmony.

Let peace begin with me
Let this be the moment now.
With every step i take
Let this be my solemn vow.
To take each moment
And live each moment
With peace eternally.
Let there be peace on earth,
And let it begin with me.

Let there be peace on earth
And let it begin with me.
Let there be peace on earth
The peace that was meant to be.
With god as our father
Brothers all are we.
Let me walk with my brother
In perfect harmony.

Let peace begin with me
Let this be the moment now.
With every step I take
Let this be my solemn vow.
To take each moment
And live each moment
In peace eternally.
Let there be peace on earth
And let it begin with me.

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/13/2012 9:22 PM
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How about:

I'd like to build the world a home
And furnish it with love
Grow apple trees and honey bees
And snow-white turtle doves

Chorus:
I'd like to teach the world to sing
In perfect harmony....


http://www.allthelyrics.com/lyrics/new_seekers/id_like_to_bu...

Yeah, I like the advertising version better...it's one of my childhood memories. Awesome ad. Lovely song.

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184606 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/14/2012 10:37 AM
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While I'm at it - my favorite song sung at this time of year is "Joy to the World"
If you listen, it isn't even about Christmas. It best describes the second coming of Christ.
====================================
You know, I don't think so:

"Joy to the world! The Lord is come"

Not will come or did come.

====================================

Christians believe He comes returns:

Joy to the World, the Savior reigns!
Let men their songs employ;
While fields and floods, rocks, hills and plains
Repeat the sounding joy.

No more let sins and sorrows grow,
Nor thorns infest the ground;
He comes to make His blessings flow
Far as the curse is found.

He rules the world with truth and grace,
And makes the nations prove
The glories of His righteousness,
And wonders of His love

These are things largely promised after the second coming.
Again, its just my opinion - but not a rare one.
Ray

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184607 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/14/2012 10:51 AM
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How about:

I'd like to build the world a home
And furnish it with love
Grow apple trees and honey bees
And snow-white turtle doves

Chorus:
I'd like to teach the world to sing
In perfect harmony....

http://www.allthelyrics.com/lyrics/new_seekers/id_like_to_bu......

Yeah, I like the advertising version better...it's one of my childhood memories. Awesome ad. Lovely song.


And a great message!
Ray

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184608 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/14/2012 11:18 AM
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Joy to the world! The Lord is come. Let Earth receive her king!


I agree that the words describe the position of Christ at the second coming much better than the first coming. After all, the people writing that song already know that he didn't live or die as a king the first time. But that prophesy says he will the second time.

I'd never thought of that song in those terms before. It's interesting.


Frydaze1

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184610 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/14/2012 11:28 AM
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I really need to proofread my posts.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184613 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/14/2012 1:12 PM
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I really need to proofread my posts.

I saw that, but I'm being good right now, just in case Santa is watching.

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/14/2012 11:46 PM
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Talk about ghosts of Christmas past, welcome back old friend!
How have you been?

-Bryan


Like everyone else, I suppose. Both good and bad depending on the moment.

I've missed you.

k

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/14/2012 11:47 PM
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Why don't we have this same excitement and generosity of spirit during the other 11 and 1/2 months of the year?

Exactly!

k

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/15/2012 8:06 AM
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"These are things largely promised after the second coming.
Again, its just my opinion - but not a rare one."

"Is come" still sounds like present tense to me.

Slight tangent, how do you see the statement by Jesus that this stuff would happen in the the current generation?

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/17/2012 10:04 AM
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"These are things largely promised after the second coming.
Again, its just my opinion - but not a rare one."

"Is come" still sounds like present tense to me.


Ok. Well Jesus definitely came the first time.
But what about all the other lines and verses in the song?

Slight tangent, how do you see the statement by Jesus that this stuff would happen in the the current generation?

I have read that He was speaking about the Jews, who (then and now) had very good reason to fear genocide.
Ray

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/17/2012 12:28 PM
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Ok. Well Jesus definitely came the first time.



I haven't seen any convincing evidence to that effect.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184639 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/17/2012 12:29 PM
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Ok. Well Jesus definitely came the first time.



I haven't seen any convincing evidence to that effect.


I believe there is a stain that can be tested just like with Clinton.

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/17/2012 12:53 PM
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Ok. Well Jesus definitely came the first time.

I haven't seen any convincing evidence to that effect.



Then why does it matter what He meant in the context of what He said.
I mean, since there's no evidence he existed?
Ray

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/17/2012 4:41 PM
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Then why does it matter what He meant in the context of what He said.
I mean, since there's no evidence he existed?




Exactly. All the quotes and stories are made up.

I think it's worth pointing out the internal contradictions, though.

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/17/2012 4:45 PM
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Exactly. All the quotes and stories are made up.

I think it's worth pointing out the internal contradictions, though.


Who made it up?
Ray

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/17/2012 5:06 PM
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<<
Exactly. All the quotes and stories are made up.
>>

You keep making statements with no evidence then whining about others making statements with no evidence regardless whether they have evidence or not! hypocrite!

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/17/2012 5:16 PM
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<<
Who made it up?
Ray
>>
God?

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/17/2012 5:57 PM
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Who made it up?

Tricky question after 2000 years. Some newer ones we KNOW. Mormonism was made up by Joseph Smith. Scientology by L Ron Hubbard. JW-ism was made up by either (or both) of Charles Russell and Joseph Rutherford. Granted the latter was more of a reinterpretation (compared to Mormonism which was a major embellishment of existing systems, and Scientology which was invention from scratch).

Being within 150 years of these makes knowing this fairly easy (not to mention the better record keeping we have today).

I tend to think Christianity was largely made up by Paul/Saul. However, it is clear he started with something created by someone else and expanded upon it. I very much doubt we'll ever be able to narrow it down much more than that. Too long ago.

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/17/2012 6:09 PM
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I tend to think Christianity was largely made up by Paul/Saul. However, it is clear he started with something created by someone else and expanded upon it. I very much doubt we'll ever be able to narrow it down much more than that. Too long ago.


Did Paul/Saul exist?

He was shipwrecked several times and stoned within an inch of his life. He gave up a very powerful position with the Sanhedrin to live as a pauper. There is some evidence that he lost his family and all his wealth. The only people who embraced it were basically losers who had no where else to turn.
Why'd he do it?
I'm sorry but your theory holds very little water. Joseph Smith and L Ron Hubbard benefited from what they made up. The theory that Paul made it all up lacks a motive, evidence, and a plausable story.
Ray

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/17/2012 6:40 PM
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Did Paul/Saul exist?

Good question. I had thought there was more solid data concerning that, but checking I'm not finding much. The key appears to be writings that allegedly are his (we do not have this with Jesus, for example). These writing differ from Acts in significant ways, and it appears scholars tend to favor those writings over Acts for veracity.

Assuming he did exist, why did he do it? Very difficult to say. Perhaps he thought he would get rich (and was wrong, based on what you say). Perhaps he felt guilt from his previous persecution of Christians and wanted to atone. I'm not aware of anything that answers that question (but neither am I a Paul/Saul scholar).

It does appear that he did provide significant embellishment, however. I have read essays which credit him primarily with the spreading of Christianity (including assertions that had he not done so the religion would have disappeared within a few decades).

1poorguy

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/17/2012 10:15 PM
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<<
I tend to think Christianity was largely made up by Paul/Saul. However, it is clear he started with something created by someone else and expanded upon it. I very much doubt we'll ever be able to narrow it down much more than that. Too long ago.
>>

Silly human Paul did not write that much of the NT... without the gospels and acts Paul's letters would be meaningless. I can narrow it down easily, Jesus the Christ was the author and perfector of our faith.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184669 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/19/2012 12:47 PM
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Who made it up?



Stories get passed around for decades and they change each time, so you really can't pin it on one person.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184671 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/19/2012 1:11 PM
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<<
Stories get passed around for decades and they change each time, so you really can't pin it on one person.
>>

Then there is no way you can prove the story is made up! The only evidence you have is articles written by scholars... but you reject letters written by Paul of Tarsus, a scholar of the time as being of any bearing at all as evidence. Hypocrite!

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184673 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/19/2012 1:32 PM
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<<
Stories get passed around for decades and they change each time, so you really can't pin it on one person.
>>
--------------
Then there is no way you can prove the story is made up!





In other words, a false story is not false if it's perpetuated by more than one person.

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184687 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 9:17 AM
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Stories get passed around for decades and they change each time, so you really can't pin it on one person.

Ok. Except I didn't ask 'what was the name of the individual who made it up?' - I asked Who?
The Jews hated Him, the ruling party of Romans let him be executed. You are quick to point out that the disciples were 'illiterate goat herders'.
Who made up Jesus?
Ray

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184688 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 9:20 AM
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Then there is no way you can prove the story is made up!

To be fair, he doesn't have to. Just like we don't have to prove that alien abduction stories are made up. The burden of proof is on those making the claim that the story is truthful.

but you reject letters written by Paul of Tarsus, a scholar of the time as being of any bearing at all as evidence.

What is Paul, what is by others, and what was added or deleted or redacted by editors and scribes? Scholars try to figure all this out. Most scholars agree that 1&2 Timothy and Hebrews (and others) were not written by Paul. Do you agree? If not, why not?

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184689 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 9:45 AM
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To be fair, he doesn't have to. Just like we don't have to prove that alien abduction stories are made up. The burden of proof is on those making the claim that the story is truthful.


This is true. But it isn't a license to offer nothing. The guy who runs around all day, making fun of alien abduction, clowning on people who believe it - who actively seek to *be* anti-alien abduction, brings more burden upon himself than the passive people who simply don't believe.

If you (not Adrian you, but the royal you) are going to come here and post all day about how I believe in silly fairy tales, you have to come a lot stronger than telling me I have the burden of proof.
I do have the burden of proof.
You, the skeptic, have the burden of rejoinder.
If Jesus never existed, who made Him up?

If you bring a debate here, to the Christian Fools message board, then you bring the debate to us and bring some level of debate burden to yourself.

Its a question that you need to answer if you keep coming here comparing me to someone who believes in aliens.
Ray

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184690 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 9:49 AM
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Except I didn't ask 'what was the name of the individual who made it up?' - I asked Who?
The Jews hated Him, the ruling party of Romans let him be executed. You are quick to point out that the disciples were 'illiterate goat herders'.
Who made up Jesus?


IMO, a group of dissatisfied Jews who borrowed heavily from pagan beliefs to create a new religious school of thought.

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184692 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 9:59 AM
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IMO, a group of dissatisfied Jews who borrowed heavily from pagan beliefs to create a new religious school of thought.

That certainly sounds like Jesus and His friends.
Ray

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184693 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 10:02 AM
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<<
To be fair, he doesn't have to. Just like we don't have to prove that alien abduction stories are made up.
>>

To be fair I have never made that claim!

<<
The burden of proof is on those making the claim that the story is truthful.
>>

No the person making the statement is responsible on its truthfulness. I only ask the hypocrite for proof because he always asks for evidence then rejects personal testimony!

<<
but you reject letters written by Paul of Tarsus, a scholar of the time as being of any bearing at all as evidence.
><
What is Paul, what is by others, and what was added or deleted or redacted by editors and scribes? Scholars try to figure all this out. Most scholars agree that 1&2 Timothy and Hebrews (and others) were not written by Paul. Do you agree? If not, why not?
>>
I believe all scripture is inspired by God and is useful for instruction, training and corrects so that we may be fully equiped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:15-17

I have never thought Hebrews was written by Paul, the style and fabric of the letter is totally different than Paul's other letters.

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184694 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 10:06 AM
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I have never thought Hebrews was written by Paul, the style and fabric of the letter is totally different than Paul's other letters.

I don't think I ever read a bible scholar who thought Hebrews was written by Paul.
Ray

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184695 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 10:10 AM
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IMO, a group of dissatisfied Jews who borrowed heavily from pagan beliefs to create a new religious school of thought.
>>

Very interesting... except none of them showed any desire to form a new religion. For at least the first 10 years after the death, burial and resurrection the leaders were all practicing Jews.

Only 15 years or so later when many gentiles were converted in Antioch did the church begin leaving the Jewish laws and practiced behind. Even during Paul's 1st missionary journey, he would first go to a local synagogue to preach and teach. They considered themselves Jews who had found the messiah not a new religious school of thought and they are correct.

Only after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem did the gentile leadership begin dominating the church, a process that continues today to the point that many teach the OT teachings do not apply to us.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184696 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 10:13 AM
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I don't think I ever read a bible scholar who thought Hebrews was written by Paul.
Ray
>>

I have read some commentaries that came to that conclusion... but the writers seemed to be more enamored by Paul's writings more than the teachings of Christ.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184697 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 10:58 AM
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That certainly sounds like Jesus and His friends.
Ray


No doubt. And Constantine made sure it's virtually impossible to tell.

From third party historical accounts of the time, I'd say the pagans found early christians to be a bit batty, actually believing what they had considered allegory, myths, and tales for quite some time before christ.

And considering the christ figure is just a rehash of myths that were central to many pagan beliefs throughout the area at the time, I think there's more than enough there to support that christ is made up.

For a good read on this topic check out The Jesus Mysteries which was an academic undertaking, not biblical.

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Mysteries-Was-Original-Pagan/dp/...

Just offering an answer to your question Ray. I think there's more than enough on both sides to support either position.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184699 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 11:03 AM
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Very interesting... except none of them showed any desire to form a new religion. For at least the first 10 years after the death, burial and resurrection the leaders were all practicing Jews.

Only 15 years or so later when many gentiles were converted in Antioch did the church begin leaving the Jewish laws and practiced behind. Even during Paul's 1st missionary journey, he would first go to a local synagogue to preach and teach. They considered themselves Jews who had found the messiah not a new religious school of thought and they are correct.

Only after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem did the gentile leadership begin dominating the church, a process that continues today to the point that many teach the OT teachings do not apply to us.


Lawrence,

you are assuming jesus actually lived in the above argument. I was asked why I thought he was fictional. There is no time frame to fiction, it can be made up any time. I believe the jesus figure was created 50 to 100 years after he was purported to have lived, and all the history you are relying upon was made up at that time.

This is my interpretation of the historical information available from all sources, not just the bible. I'm not trying to convince you or Ray.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184700 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 11:04 AM
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Who made up Jesus?

Who made up Robin Hood? Who made up King Arthur? Were they based on real people at all?

Same basic question in all cases, and same difficulty in arriving at an answer.

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184701 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 11:10 AM
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Who made up Robin Hood? Who made up King Arthur? Were they based on real people at all?

Same basic question in all cases, and same difficulty in arriving at an answer.


I don't know. But if I spent as much time thinking about it as you do thinking about Jesus, I'd have a solid theory.
Ray

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184702 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 11:24 AM
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Just offering an answer to your question Ray. I think there's more than enough on both sides to support either position.

I agree. And I appreciate your answer. It is a refreshing change of pace from the others who frequent this board equating Christianity with pink dragons and tea kettles orbiting the sun.
I'll check out the book.
Ray

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184703 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 11:28 AM
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...I'd have a solid theory.

Really? The word 'theory' carries a LOT of weight. I would never use it in my musings on the subject. Do I have conjecture? Sure. You did not appear to be asking for conjecture, however, so I did not present mine lest it be interpreted as more than it is.

If I were to guess, I would say that there was one (or possibly several) wandering preachers. This would be very consistent with what we know of the time (some of them were even messianic candidates). Some of what they said was passed-along (people do that when they hear stuff they like). From there it's the telephone game. At some point someone started taking it seriously, writing it down (including any embellishments that may have occurred), etc.

I heard recently that the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is starting to get serious adherents. Not just folks like me who think it's cute and funny, but actual believers. Even though we know the history of it, and we know it was a spoof. If that can happen, even with the benefit of the internet and fact-checking, it is totally plausible that stories of inspirational speaker(s) grew into something more (borrowing for local pagan traditions, perhaps introduced during the numerous re-tellings to make it more palatable with the local beliefs).

But, again, just an educated guess.

(And, FWIW, I suspect King Arthur and Robin Hood also grew out of similar tales, possibly based on real people, but embellished extensively.)

1poorguy

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184704 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 11:30 AM
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Lawrence,

you are assuming jesus actually lived in the above argument. I was asked why I thought he was fictional. There is no time frame to fiction, it can be made up any time. I believe the jesus figure was created 50 to 100 years after he was purported to have lived, and all the history you are relying upon was made up at that time.

This is my interpretation of the historical information available from all sources, not just the bible. I'm not trying to convince you or Ray.
>>

What historical information. Do you have some historical works from the second century after Christ that claims the gospel accounts and claims were fiction?

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184705 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 11:33 AM
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Who made up Robin Hood? Who made up King Arthur? Were they based on real people at all?

Same basic question in all cases, and same difficulty in arriving at an answer.
>>

No one here is claiming that Robin Hood or King Arthur were made up and fictional characters?

Now I do think King Kong and Godzilla are fictional.... But I am making not claims to that.

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184706 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 11:43 AM
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Really? The word 'theory' carries a LOT of weight. I would never use it in my musings on the subject. Do I have conjecture? Sure. You did not appear to be asking for conjecture, however, so I did not present mine lest it be interpreted as more than it is.

I meant 'educated guess'. I wasn't trying to be insulting.
Ray

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184707 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 12:29 PM
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I meant 'educated guess'. I wasn't trying to be insulting.

I know. That wouldn't be your style. Sometimes annoyed, perhaps. But not insulting. :-)

Just me being pedantic about "theory".

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184708 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 2:33 PM
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What historical information. Do you have some historical works from the second century after Christ that claims the gospel accounts and claims were fiction?

Yes, there are writings from the earliest christian era that shows the disdain pf pagan followers for christians believing in a literally resurrected christ figure, as well as many of the other biblical stories that were conscripted from the pagan mysteries.

Constantine commanded the Council in Nicea to consolidate all christian writings in 325AD. Even though many gospels and writings from the same time as those contained in the bible were expelled and declared heretic, the early christians stayed divided, the Niceans believing as christians do today that god and Jesus are the same, and the Arians who believed god had created christ, similar but not identical.

By 380AD this schism began to divide east and west, and Theodosius convened the Council of Constantinople to define orthodoxy consistent with Nicean theology.

Given the schism, and a very brief civil war, Theodosius began a campaign of persecution of all pagans within the Roman Empire, upped it to ban of any pagan worship or rites, then finally declared any and all pagan practices to be illegal. From 380AD to 395AD pretty much all pagan writings, libraries, temples, and believers were destroyed or killed. Any histories or writings that challenged the established orthodoxy were also destroyed.

We rediscovered many of these original gospels when we found the Dead Sea scrolls.

Many of the philosophers, artisans, writers, and thinkers from 2,000 years ago were inducted into the pagan mysteries. There have survived writings from them that show their feelings about christians believing that their version of the pagan mysteries was actually real. There was a degree of incredulity because the almost identical stories from the pagans, that predate christian writings, were never considered to be factual or historical.

If you'd like to explore some the evidence, read The Jesus Mysteries. If not, fine, but I really have no interest in bickering about it. I'd much rather enjoy the holidays and hope you do the same.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184709 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 3:13 PM
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<< the Niceans believing as christians do today that god and Jesus are the same >>

I do not believe that.... I believe that Jesus Christ and the Father are one, not the same.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184710 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 4:16 PM
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I do not believe that.... I believe that Jesus Christ and the Father are one, not the same.

The word used to decide orthodoxy was homooúsios. Jesus and god are of the same substance and are equally god. At the time of Nicea, the moderate Arians believed that Jesus and god were of similar substance, but that Jesus was the son of god in a hierarchical sense, not equal.

This was a more practical position than that of the Anomoeans, who believed that god and Jesus did not share the same substance. Their beliefs were articulated by Aetius, and our only evidence of such is preserved in a refutation of his writing. His actual works gone long ago, the way of so many works and writings that didn't agree with the orthodox view we have today.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184711 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 4:59 PM
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<<
The word used to decide orthodoxy was homooúsios. Jesus and god are of the same substance and are equally god. At the time of Nicea, the moderate Arians believed that Jesus and god were of similar substance, but that Jesus was the son of god in a hierarchical sense, not equal.

This was a more practical position than that of the Anomoeans, who believed that god and Jesus did not share the same substance. Their beliefs were articulated by Aetius, and our only evidence of such is preserved in a refutation of his writing. His actual works gone long ago, the way of so many works and writings that didn't agree with the orthodox view we have today.
>>

Jesus did not claim equality with God. He claimed that the Father was greater than all. The scriptures are clear that Jesus was a man. He was tempted as we are tempted but did not sin as we all have. Jesus and the Father are one but not the same.

I have read the positions and some accounts of the debates.

John wrote something that might have bearing on your understanding of the controversy but maybe not you seem to be more concerned with theology than I am. I am concerned more with truth.
John 4:
2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184712 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 5:06 PM
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Ok. Except I didn't ask 'what was the name of the individual who made it up?' - I asked Who?


The two questions have identical meaning.



You are quick to point out that the disciples were 'illiterate goat herders'.


I don't think I've ever said that.



Who made up Jesus?



Christianity adopted the entire concept of the virgin-born savior returned-from-the-dead from earlier religions.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184713 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 5:17 PM
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Christianity adopted the entire concept of the virgin-born savior returned-from-the-dead from earlier religions.
>>

You are so funny. Or maybe you are sad? It is hard to tell.

Merry christmas.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184714 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 7:37 PM
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Christianity adopted the entire concept of the virgin-born savior returned-from-the-dead from earlier religions.
>>
--------------
You are so funny. Or maybe you are sad? It is hard to tell.




I can tell you the truth, but I can't understand it for you.

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184715 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 8:23 PM
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I have never thought Hebrews was written by Paul, the style and fabric of the letter is totally different than Paul's other letters.

So how did it make it into the canon if it was not written by an apostle or follower of an apostle? They thought Paul wrote it. They also thought Paul wrote 1&2 Timothy.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184716 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/20/2012 10:17 PM
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<<
So how did it make it into the canon if it was not written by an apostle or follower of an apostle? They thought Paul wrote it. They also thought Paul wrote 1&2 Timothy.
>>

There is very good evidence that the letters to Timothy were written or dictated by the Apostle Paul.
1 Timothy
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope,
2 To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Timothy
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus [a]by the will of God, according to the promise of life in Christ Jesus,
2 To Timothy, my beloved son: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

I have never seen any credible evidence that Hebrews was written by Paul.. the commentarians simply did not have another name to attribute it to... I vote for Barnabas which is a wild a## guess but is just as valid as the scholars who guess it was Paul....

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184719 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/21/2012 10:12 AM
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Ok. Except I didn't ask 'what was the name of the individual who made it up?' - I asked Who?


The two questions have identical meaning.



Nigel understood and gave a well thought out response.
Ray

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184720 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/21/2012 12:02 PM
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Nigel understood and gave a well thought out response.




Too bad there wasn't a well thought-out question.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184721 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/21/2012 12:10 PM
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Christianity adopted the entire concept of the virgin-born savior returned-from-the-dead from earlier religions.
>>
----------
You are so funny. Or maybe you are sad? It is hard to tell.





Seriously, do you really think those traits are unique to Christianity? I didn't know there was anyone on the planet who was that ignorant.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184722 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/21/2012 12:26 PM
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Oh fmnh, you wouldn't believe the ignorance that is on this planet.

AM

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/21/2012 12:46 PM
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Seriously, do you really think those traits are unique to Christianity? I didn't know there was anyone on the planet who was that ignorant.
>>

I think Jesus the Christ is unique. Most of his teachings are not unigue, but he expressed them in a way that resonated in me. Without the teachings the virgin birth is meaningless to me, the crucifixion, and resurrection however are very powerful in my life, however Jesus was not the first that returned from the dead nor was he the last. His death burial and resurrection however is the only one that I am able to participate in.

Th error you persist in is assuming that Christianity adopted the concept from earlier religions.

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/21/2012 12:49 PM
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Oh fmnh, you wouldn't believe the ignorance that is on this planet.

AM
>>

I would... but then i may more gullible than FMNH?

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/24/2012 12:19 PM
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I have never seen any credible evidence that Hebrews was written by Paul.. the commentarians simply did not have another name to attribute it to...

Again, so how did it make it into the canon if it was not confirmed to have been written by an apostle or follower of an apostle?

Answer: they thought Paul wrote it. He didn't. So should it be in there?

Most scholars agree that 1&2 Timothy are not Paul. Should they be in there?

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/24/2012 12:45 PM
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Again, so how did it make it into the canon if it was not confirmed to have been written by an apostle or follower of an apostle?

Here's an answer to my question:

http://ichthys.com/mail-canonicity%20of%20Hebrews.htm

One of the things that really bugs me about such discussions – and they are almost all along the lines of what you have pasted in here – is that they have things inside out. It is hard to imagine a serious Christian who has a basic education, let alone anyone with an advanced degree, who cannot see and understand that prima facie the Word of God is different from any other literature in the world. The Bible is, to paraphrase L.S. Chafer, "not a book that men could write if they would, or would write if they could". This is an elegant way of saying that the power of scripture is easily seen with the naked eye – at least for any and all who have the Spirit of God.

and

The truth is that the Bible is the Bible, and that the books in the Bible are the books in the Bible.

There's no argument against that.

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/24/2012 1:57 PM
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Answer: they thought Paul wrote it. He didn't. So should it be in there?

Most scholars agree that 1&2 Timothy are not Paul. Should they be in there?



Have you studied the reasons that scholars have used to reject Pauline authorship of the PE [pastoral epistles]?

I find the arguments fall apart when you read a critical analysis by someone who supports Pauline authorship. For example, Knight's commentary on the PE goes to great lengths to evaluate the main objections to Paul, and summarizes as follows:

The arguments against Pauline authorship of the PE, like the arguments for Lucan authorship, initially appear to be persuasive. But when examined more closely they fall far short of being convincing. Examination of both sets of arguments brings out relationships between the PE and the other Paulines that have been overlooked or not adequately appreciated. Thus the apparent problem areas have in the long run made their own contributions and have thus strengthened rather than weakened the pervasive self-testimony of the letters to their Pauline authorship. Differences remain between the PE and the other Paulines, but as suggested above, the differences are interrelated and mutually explanatory parts of one overarching and comprehensive difference: The PE were written to different recipients — colleagues not churches. When the apostle writes to his colleagues, much of what he writes about is different. Furthermore, his method of communication, style, and vocabulary are also different because of the difference in recipients and content. Thus the differences themselves are not unexplainable, but rather prove to be appropriate authenticating marks of letters by Paul to two of his colleagues.

But even though the different recipients and much new subject matter go a long way in explaining the use of new vocabulary, the relationship between the vocabulary and style of Luke-Acts and that of the PE, along with the companionship of Luke with Paul, points to another factor in the different vocabulary. This helps to remove the question of possible influences on Paul's vocabulary from the realm of mere possibility to that of demonstrable possibility. Some form of the Lucan hypothesis short of exclusive Lucan authorship apart from Paul thus becomes a supporting element in the argument for Pauline authorship.
Our conclusion is that the PE were indeed written by the apostle Paul to his colleagues. This conclusion is based not only on the clear self-testimony of the letters to Paul as their author, their frequent personal references to Paul, their basic Pauline teaching, and their basic Pauline vocabulary and style, but also on the satisfactory resolution of the perceived or real differences, which in the end point toward rather than away from that authorship.


thus, there is no problem with having the PE in the Bible, because they belong there.

-Bryan

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/26/2012 12:12 AM
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Again, so how did it make it into the canon if it was not confirmed to have been written by an apostle or follower of an apostle?
>>
I think that it should be completely true to be canon. Others may have other criteria.


<<
Answer: they thought Paul wrote it. He didn't. So should it be in there?
>>
I do not know that your statement is true... do you have a basis for this belief.

<<
Most scholars agree that 1&2 Timothy are not Paul. Should they be in there?
>>
Most scholars should read the letters to Timothy instead of whatever they are reading. The letters are clear who wrote them.

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/26/2012 12:18 AM
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The truth is that the Bible is the Bible, and that the books in the Bible are the books in the Bible.
>>
The statement is true but pointless and meaningless.
Like saying.
The truth is the church is the church and the people in the church are the people in the church.

A rose is a rose is a rose.

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/26/2012 12:34 AM
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One of the things that really bugs me about such discussions – and they are almost all along the lines of what you have pasted in here – is that they have things inside out. It is hard to imagine a serious Christian who has a basic education, let alone anyone with an advanced degree, who cannot see and understand that prima facie the Word of God is different from any other literature in the world. The Bible is, to paraphrase L.S. Chafer, "not a book that men could write if they would, or would write if they could". This is an elegant way of saying that the power of scripture is easily seen with the naked eye – at least for any and all who have the Spirit of God.
>>
I do not agree with all of the above... but do agree with some of it.
The scriptures have stories about men with feet of clay including the followers of the Christ except for Jesus Christ. He had a lineage with 3 women of questionable character, + Mary His mother who was impregnated out of wedlock. Nothing He did showed Him to be a hero. A criminal's death.
Today I drove home and few businesses were open, except for hotels and conenience stores/ gas stations. A few fast food places. Why? So employees could celebrate the birth of the Christ? no... maybe a few. They were closed because most people ain't shopping they are celebrating their families and close friends maybe not the birth of the Christ. They are celebrating love ... what better way to celebrate the birth of one who taught us to love.. regardless of their faith in Him....
He was not a hero... but He loved and taught His disciples and Apostles to love. And there is few who still follow those teachings and those few are a yeast in our society that all the materialism and the hedonism in our society cannot quench.

These 3 remain, faith, hope and love and the greatest of these is love.

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/26/2012 12:42 AM
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But even though the different recipients and much new subject matter go a long way in explaining the use of new vocabulary, the relationship between the vocabulary and style of Luke-Acts and that of the PE, along with the companionship of Luke with Paul, points to another factor in the different vocabulary
>
The gospel of Luke and Acts were also letters to an individual.

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/28/2012 11:19 AM
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thus, there is no problem with having the PE in the Bible, because they belong there.

OK. Some scholars say they are Paul, some say they are not. What's a humble non-scholar to do?

What does your guy say about Hebrews?

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/28/2012 11:26 AM
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Answer: they thought Paul wrote it. He didn't. So should it be in there?
>>
I do not know that your statement is true... do you have a basis for this belief.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_the_Hebrews#Authorsh...

No author is internally named. Since the earliest days of the Church, the authorship has been debated. In the 4th century, Jerome and Augustine of Hippo supported Paul's authorship: the Church largely agreed to include Hebrews as the fourteenth letter of Paul, and affirmed this authorship until the Reformation.

7+7=14 letters of Paul. Nice numerology.

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/28/2012 11:56 AM
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OK. Some scholars say they are Paul, some say they are not. What's a humble non-scholar to do?
>>

If the letter says Paul wrote it and you believe that he did not then cut those pages out of your Bible.. the author is a liar. If you think the Bible should not be cut apart then throw out the entire Bible and start with your own thoughts and work out your own a path to God.

I started with a belief that Jesus taught truth. I did not like Paul's letters nor James' epistle. After 30 years or so, seeing much, experiencing much, I now see some of the truths that Paul was trying to communicate. He was trying to deal with church's and people with weaknesses like our own and helping them to understand. His teachings fall apart without the foundation of the teachings of Jesus Christ. As Paul himself wrote, if there is no resurrection our faith is worthless.
1 Corinthians 15:
17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

If their is no TRUTH in the Bible, why study it at all? If there is TRUTH, things you actually believe, then you should hold to those truths like a precious jewel, meditate on it, make it part of you, if you do you will be able to grow around that TRUTH like a great oak grows from a little acorn. I grabbed at the teachings of Jesus Christ as to a light is a dark place, I have found no teachings that are better and few that resonate into the core of my being like those and none others that reverberate to the point that they flow back out.

To your question about scholars, Paul answers that in another letter that they may attribute to him... maybe not, I think he wrote or dictated it.
1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184759 of 195810
Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/28/2012 12:00 PM
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No author is internally named. Since the earliest days of the Church, the authorship has been debated. In the 4th century, Jerome and Augustine of Hippo supported Paul's authorship: the Church largely agreed to include Hebrews as the fourteenth letter of Paul, and affirmed this authorship until the Reformation.
>>

Sounds to me like it was never agreed that Paul wrote it, some may have been silent so that those who thought it was Paul's would let it be included in the cannon. I do not think that James and Jude were apostles.

I do not know who the author of Hebrews was, but I think it belongs in the canon regardless of who wrote it.

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/28/2012 3:21 PM
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OK. Some scholars say they are Paul, some say they are not. What's a humble non-scholar to do?

Evaluate the arguments pro and con the best you can.

What does your guy say about Hebrews?

Scholars tend to specialize in one or more books of the Bible. I checked 2 other authors of conservative scholarship on Hebrews (F.F. Bruce and Paul Ellingworth), and both were of the opinion that we don't know who the author of Hebrews is, but it isn't Paul

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Subject: Re: Why Do Atheists and Liberals Celebrate Chris Date: 12/29/2012 6:29 AM
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Well, thanks Lawrence and Brian. Interesting stuff.

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