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Author: LudditeAndroid Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 35757  
Subject: Why do we act like this is okay? Date: 1/26/2009 10:21 PM
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http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/01/a-mother-has-g...

A woman has given birth to octuplets at a Kaiser Permanente hospital in Bellflower, hospital officials confirmed today. [...]

Maples said there were 46 people involved in the deliveries. [...]

The six boys and two girls were born between 10 43 a.m. and 10:48 a.m, the doctors said. The babies each weighed between 1 pound and 15 ounces to 3 pounds and four ounces, the physicians said. [...]

Usually, he said, births of this kind are brought on by fertility medication, not in vitro fertilization. Often, during the medication, several of the mother’s eggs are fertilized. In most cases, Paulson said, the mother chooses to reduce the number of fertile eggs to two, “to make sure the two remaining babies will have the best chance at having good health. “To have all those babies, the mother would choose to have selective reduction.

Apparently the mother made the decision to carry all the eight babies to viability.”



Yipee! Let’s "burn their name onto the surface of the moon" [Patton Oswalt joke]. Let’s give them a free van, their own TV special, and a couple hundred grand of free merchandise. Let’s pretend that it’s good parenting to intentionally have a bunch of one-pound kids with health problems because you so wouldn’t want to just have two fertilized eggs or deal with a kid in foster care that might have health problems. Let’s pretend there are no orphans. Let’s pretend the taxpayers never get stuck with any of these lifelong medical bills. Let’s use medical intervention to release more eggs into the uterus than is physically possible for you, but then balk at reducing the number of eggs to a reasonably healthy number because now it’s suddenly wrong to intervene.

Let’s pretend everything that involves cute widdle babies is unquestionable and precious and perfect and I’m just a killjoy for pointing out these orphans over here* and over here**.

Why don’t we ever give free merch and a TV show to people who foster 8 siblings so they don’t have to be sent to different homes? Or a real role model like Maeietta Jones who fostered around 800 teenagers over the course of 40 years?


* http://www.adoptuskids.org/
** http://photolisting.adoption.com/
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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 34656 of 35757
Subject: Re: Why do we act like this is okay? Date: 1/27/2009 9:47 AM
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two months in neonatal intensive care for eight infants.

a million dollars?

more?

I'm sure mom isn't paying for it out of pocket, is she?

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 34663 of 35757
Subject: Re: Why do we act like this is okay? Date: 1/27/2009 10:27 AM
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Even if these babies didn't need neonatal care, 1 person (since the other spouse would have to go to work) cannot take care of 8 babies by themself all day long. Unless one's very wealthy, that's going to mean the volunteer help of family and friends. It's a very selfish choice that goes on to effect many others outside the direct family.

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Author: ShiningDawn Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 34665 of 35757
Subject: Re: Why do we act like this is okay? Date: 1/27/2009 1:00 PM
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two months in neonatal intensive care for eight infants.

a million dollars?


A million+ each, most likely. Also the woman was in the hospital for 7 weeks prior to the birth which means a high bill for her too.

Insurance, if they have it, will most likely cover the births and after-care, however, if the insurance is through a self-funded plan that doesn't have any stop-loss insurance, the payments could bankrupt a company. If they don't have insurance, my guess is they would qualify for Medicaid.

I don't understand how any doctor could give fertility drugs (not confirmed in this case, but how likely was it that she didn't have fertility drugs?) to anyone who is unwilling to undergo selective reduction in the case of that many embryos implanting. If someone isn't willing to undergo reductions, then the options should be limited to ones that would not cause the possibility of more than 1-3 fetuses in the first place.

Dawn

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Author: Jhereg Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 34666 of 35757
Subject: Re: Why do we act like this is okay? Date: 1/27/2009 1:15 PM
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I don't understand how any doctor could give fertility drugs (not confirmed in this case, but how likely was it that she didn't have fertility drugs?) to anyone who is unwilling to undergo selective reduction in the case of that many embryos implanting.

What cracks me up (okay, actually, it makes me meshuggah) is when they're all like, "I want fertility treatments," and the doctor's all like, "okay, but you'll have to thin the herd once they're fertilized," and the mom's all like, "okay," but then when the doctor goes, "It's time for your selective reduction," the mom's all like, "You mean abortion, and abortion is MURDER!" and then proceeds to have thirteen unhealthy babies instead of one or two healthy ones. "We'll let GOD decide."

Lady, God already decided. You ignored her and got the fertility treatments anyway.

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Author: dswing Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 34667 of 35757
Subject: Re: Why do we act like this is okay? Date: 1/27/2009 1:18 PM
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It is OK, because we believe in freedom of choice.

Such as, the freedom to choose NOT to have kids, for example.

~dswing

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 34668 of 35757
Subject: Re: Why do we act like this is okay? Date: 1/27/2009 1:24 PM
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I don't understand how any doctor could give fertility drugs (not confirmed in this case, but how likely was it that she didn't have fertility drugs?) to anyone who is unwilling to undergo selective reduction in the case of that many embryos implanting.

The issue is what do you do when a woman changes her mind once she's pregnant? If women believe in the right to privacy where their uterus is concerned, no one else should have the right to force someone to reduce the number of embryos. I don't like litters of babies, but I also don't like the idea of forcing someone to do something with their body.

Another issue is health insurance. If a health insurance company doesn't have to cover fertility treatments, should they have to cover the costs of healthcare for the outcome of fertility treatments?

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Author: SRenaeP Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 34671 of 35757
Subject: Re: Why do we act like this is okay? Date: 1/27/2009 1:31 PM
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The issue is what do you do when a woman changes her mind once she's pregnant? If women believe in the right to privacy where their uterus is concerned, no one else should have the right to force someone to reduce the number of embryos. I don't like litters of babies, but I also don't like the idea of forcing someone to do something with their body.

And I am fully on-board with that provided the parents fully bear the burden of the litter of babies themselves - meaning no Medicaid, WIC, etc. If I don't have a say in whether or not you have them, then I don't want to pay for them.

-Steph

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Author: bthomas15 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 34673 of 35757
Subject: Re: Why do we act like this is okay? Date: 1/27/2009 1:37 PM
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It makes me sick to hear about these kinds of litters.

Especially when the parents praise God for this 'miracle'...

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 34675 of 35757
Subject: Re: Why do we act like this is okay? Date: 1/27/2009 2:45 PM
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Lady, God already decided. You ignored her and got the fertility treatments anyway.

QFT

Frydaze1

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Author: flightdoc100 Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 34676 of 35757
Subject: Re: Why do we act like this is okay? Date: 1/27/2009 4:09 PM
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These kids were delivered at Kaiser and the whole deal will be paid out of the general insurance fund. Kaiser can deliver the neonatal care at under market because its not-for-profit. Still the cost will be formidable and the risk for developmental delay or learning disability large for these kids.

Usually the fertility treatments are self funded if invitro, but pergonal type therapy would be covered.

Mark (definitely not in favor of this scenario).

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Author: TycoonGamer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 34677 of 35757
Subject: Re: Why do we act like this is okay? Date: 1/27/2009 5:29 PM
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Would you take away her choice to carry the babies to term?

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 34678 of 35757
Subject: Re: Why do we act like this is okay? Date: 1/27/2009 5:42 PM
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Would you take away her choice to carry the babies to term?

Not legally, but if I met her in person who knows.

6

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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 34679 of 35757
Subject: Re: Why do we act like this is okay? Date: 1/27/2009 5:51 PM
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People are free to be as stupid as they please. If they require me to fund their stupidity then I should be free to resent it.

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Author: maracle Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 34680 of 35757
Subject: Re: Why do we act like this is okay? Date: 1/27/2009 7:56 PM
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I thought fertility doctors only did a few embryos per treatment now to avoid this kind of thing...

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Author: flightdoc100 Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 34681 of 35757
Subject: Re: Why do we act like this is okay? Date: 1/27/2009 8:25 PM
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I have no inside knowledge on the kind of fertility treatments eployed here, but if a ovulatory stimulant such as pergonal is used, then it is a cr*p shoot how many embryos you get.

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Author: tconi Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 34682 of 35757
Subject: Re: Why do we act like this is okay? Date: 1/28/2009 9:52 AM
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I thought fertility doctors only did a few embryos per treatment now to avoid this kind of thing...



without getting too indepth into treatments -

from what I know there are treatments:

* to stimulate egg productions (and you have no idea how many you can get - depends on how many eggs are released & how many get fertilized
* where eggs are fertilized outside the womb are transferred to the uterine lining (this is usually limited to 3 or 4 max with the hopes that one or two *take*)
* where eggs are fertilized while still within the woman's body (again, this is usually now a limited number)


peace & fertility methods
t


i know there are others but I think these are the main ones

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Author: GardenStateFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 34683 of 35757
Subject: Re: Why do we act like this is okay? Date: 1/28/2009 11:07 AM
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* to stimulate egg productions (and you have no idea how many you can get - depends on how many eggs are released & how many get fertilized

True. However, if you're taking the meds under the care of a doc they will do ultrasounds and TELL YOU how many you are at risk of releasing.

Any couples trying to conceive under those circumstances are doing so either out of complete ignorance or AMA. Usually the latter.

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Author: maracle Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 34684 of 35757
Subject: Re: Why do we act like this is okay? Date: 1/28/2009 11:38 AM
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Thanks...I didn't know of the method to stimulate egg production. That makes more sense I guess.

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