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Author: Milligram46 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1977370  
Subject: Why Is It? Date: 1/8/2006 2:09 PM
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Twelve miners are killed in a West Virginia coal mine and the nation comes to a dead stop. Nothing but mine coverage 24/7 for three days solid.

Twenty-eight US soldiers have died in 72 hours, one of the bloodiest period in months, and no one cares.

:-(

I care - and each one of those soldiers who died has a story, and a life, as every bit as important as a West Virginia coal miner, or any other U.S. citizen.

This is becoming a forgotten war.
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Author: EricTaller Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 877558 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/8/2006 2:40 PM
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If you are seriously asking, I think it is because the miners were thought to be alive and the drama in the rush to save them made it a story that was easy to report on and compelling. When the news came that they were dead, the reporting was wrapped up and the news crews started to move on.

Not that the deaths of the US soldiers is not compelling...in fact I hope that we get some in depth coverage of it...but the miner story was completly different. If the first news we got was that all the miners were dead, Anderson Cooper would not have made it a top story on the night it happened ...not to mention that he would not have left his studio to report from the scene.

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Author: eatnbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 877562 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/8/2006 2:59 PM
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Twelve miners are killed in a West Virginia coal mine and the nation comes to a dead stop. Nothing but mine coverage 24/7 for three days solid.

Twenty-eight US soldiers have died in 72 hours, one of the bloodiest period in months, and no one cares.



Just as bad, if the one Miner in the Coma was not getting all the national TV coverage, and if Sharon was not ... well ....Sharon,

Both of their insurance companies would have insisted that the plugs would have been pulled long ago.


The Miner, Randal McCloy, is the most amazing ... go to any of the TBI or Brain injury boards and ask what they think the chances are of "any" brain injured person getting insurance approval for Hyperbaric oxygen therapy ..... They will laugh at you ... Even the Dr's treating McCloy knew that, you can tell that from the articles

"Initially his doctors initially said hyperbaric oxygen therapy to treat the carbon monoxide poisoning wasn't needed.

Lawrence Roberts, M.D., director of the trauma center at West Virginia University's Ruby Memorial Hospital, where McCloy was first treated, said the immediate treatment for CO poisoning "is first and foremost giving oxygen."

When McCloy arrived at Ruby Memorial, Dr. Roberts said Wednesday, the miner's blood levels of CO were not high enough to warrant a hyperbaric chamber. "Within one hour, we re-evaluated the levels and they had significantly dropped already," Dr. Roberts said.

Given other aspects of McCloy's condition, he said, "moving him to a facility with a hyperbaric oxygen chamber would not in my opinion have been appropriate."

Insurance companies are to cheap to spend that kind of money, unless they see those cameras ...... Then ......

Thank God he got it, but today there are all these articles telling the wonders of hyperbaric oxygen chamber treatments .... but nobody with a brain injury will be allowed to get it ... unless they are on TV .. A bad leg burn maybe .. it will get you out of the hospital faster ... but in a coma with a Brain injury?

Where is that Plug?

Bears






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Author: deejay7 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 877572 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/8/2006 3:41 PM
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Twenty-eight US soldiers have died in 72 hours, one of the bloodiest period in months, and no one cares.

Yeah, but it'll all change after the election!

What's that you say?

Really!

Oh well!!!

deejay7

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Author: JoeChristmas Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 877576 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/8/2006 4:09 PM
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Easy. America hates losing. Iraq is now just a daily does of murder, mayhem, etc. Too depressing. Better to look the other way. After all, few of us have a brother/sister/son/daughter actually fighting in Iraq.

How to cope? 30% of Americans are in serious denial (right wingers), pretending all is actually going well, if only the "MSM" wouldn't distort the "truth". The rest have just tuned out. We've already written it off.

--JC

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Author: ghdude Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 877592 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/8/2006 5:37 PM
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Twelve miners are killed in a West Virginia coal mine and the nation comes to a dead stop. Nothing but mine coverage 24/7 for three days solid.

Twenty-eight US soldiers have died in 72 hours, one of the bloodiest period in months, and no one cares.

:-(


Was one of them a pretty blond girl?

Derek

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Author: bigcaat Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 877612 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/8/2006 6:45 PM
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This is becoming a forgotten war.

This is becoming -- has become -- Vietnam. What a waste of valuable lives.

Caat

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Author: mishedlo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 877641 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/8/2006 9:34 PM
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Twenty-eight US soldiers have died in 72 hours, one of the bloodiest period in months, and no one cares.

Those soldiers would not be dead if they refused to go.
Well maybe they would but at least they would be patriots.
I will salute any soldier that refuses to serve this president as a genuine hero.

Mish.


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Author: ghdude Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 877643 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/8/2006 9:38 PM
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Those soldiers would not be dead if they refused to go.
Well maybe they would but at least they would be patriots.
I will salute any soldier that refuses to serve this president as a genuine hero.


There's a word for those in uniform who disobey civilian command.

Derek

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Author: shortUSD Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 877677 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/9/2006 1:15 AM
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I care - and each one of those soldiers who died has a story, and a life, as every bit as important as a West Virginia coal miner, or any other U.S. citizen.

several times as many iraqis have died during the same time frame, and you didn't even mention them.

-USD

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Author: philz61 Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 877691 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/9/2006 1:48 AM
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Twelve miners are killed in a West Virginia coal mine and the nation comes to a dead stop. Nothing but mine coverage 24/7 for three days solid.

Twenty-eight US soldiers have died in 72 hours, one of the bloodiest period in months, and no one cares.

:-(

I care - and each one of those soldiers who died has a story, and a life, as every bit as important as a West Virginia coal miner, or any other U.S. citizen.

This is becoming a forgotten war.


No, not forgotten, just pushed to the back for a few days by the media. Remember Milligram46, we don't get to choose what the media wishes to show us or print. If you think this is becoming a forgotten war, call up your sources for your news and complain about it.

philz



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Author: timjbd Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 877709 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/9/2006 2:14 AM
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If you are seriously asking, I think it is because the miners were thought to be alive

Those soldiers were thought to be alive, too. Right up until they weren't.

There are two reasons for the wall-to-wall coverage of the miners as opposed to the soldiers in Iraq.

First, it's easy to get a satellite truck to W. Virginia and most news orgs have all but pulled out of Iraq because reporters can't really leave the green-zone.

Second, people want to hear about something OTHER than Iraq. TV news cares first and foremost about giving people what they want. It's a business and ratings are in the toilet.

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Author: DorothyM Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 877763 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/9/2006 8:40 AM
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If the first news we got was that all the miners were dead, Anderson Cooper would not have made it a top story on the night it happened ...not to mention that he would not have left his studio to report from the scene.

Cooper left the studio about 15 minutes after the explosion (or whatever it was) that caused the accident. Cooper was in W.Va. about 2 hours later and was on scene during the entire event. Cooper was the first one to hear that the 12 miners were dead -- a woman left the church and Cooper happened to be the first person she passed. He was on camera at the time.

Fox and MSNBC were also on scene long before the "mis-communication" about whether the miners were alive or dead.

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Author: EricTaller Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 877796 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/9/2006 9:21 AM
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Cooper left the studio about 15 minutes after the explosion ...

...and I am saying that if Cooper heard that a mine explosion killed 15 people and there were no survivors, that he would not have gone to West Virginia.

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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 877842 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/9/2006 10:27 AM
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This war will never be forgotten.

We took a lot more casualties during the height of the Vietnam war, and sometimes other big events would push Vietnam off of the front page, sometimes for days. Or there would be lulls in fighting.

But unfortunately, this war aint going away anytime soon, it is impossible to ignore as any war is, and even when it is over, whatever that means, we will be talking about it for a long time.

Aren't we still talking about Vietnam? Korea? WW2? Aren't we still debating whether the Civil War was about slavery or not? (I vote it was).

Don't we still discuss the American Revolution?

Nah, Iraq is here to stay, forever.

Dov

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 877916 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/9/2006 12:19 PM
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EricTaller says

"Cooper left the studio about 15 minutes after the explosion ..."

...and I am saying that if Cooper heard that a mine explosion killed 15 people and there were no survivors, that he would not have gone to West Virginia.

I could have sworn you said something quite different.

crassfool

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Author: spookysquid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 877932 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/9/2006 12:45 PM
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Those soldiers would not be dead if they refused to go.
Well maybe they would but at least they would be patriots.
I will salute any soldier that refuses to serve this president as a genuine hero.


The soldiers who have signed the dotted line swore a solemn oath. They volunteered to serve their civilian masters, no matter the job or the cost. Even in boot camp, you are trained that given an unlawful order, you follow the order and report it after the fact, not disobey. Those soldiers who serve today did not refuse to go, and they show everyday what courage and honor they posses by fullfilling their oaths of service. Anyone who encourages them to do anything but live up to their oath is encouraging dishonorable and disgraceful behavior. The decision making about whether to go to war or not was taken from the military's hands a long time ago. That's why we have civilian masters, so the military would not just go to war or warmonger. If we the people cannot control the military's civilian masters, trying to prevent the war by getting the military to not serve is simply traitorous. If you have a problem with the civilian masters, then change their mind, vote them out, or remove them. Don't ask a soldier/sailor/airman/marine/coastie to dishonor his or her self. Nothing good can come from that.

Anyone who fails to live up to their oaths will be considered a traitor and will dealt with accordingly. In war time, that maximum penalty, as I understand it, is execution. Enough of our service members have served and died with honor. Why is it better for them to die without honor?

-spookysquid (who wonders everyday when he will be recalled)

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Author: EricTaller Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 877952 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/9/2006 1:08 PM
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I could have sworn you said something quite different.

And what could you have sworn I said?

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 878156 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/9/2006 4:06 PM
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EricTaller says

"I could have sworn you said something quite different."

And what could you have sworn I said?

Something like "... I think it is because the miners were thought to be alive and the drama in the rush to save them made it a story that was easy to report on and compelling...."

Second time around, you said the press was on the story the right after the explosion. But a long time elapsed between then and the point where the miners were thought to be alive.

crassfool

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Author: EricTaller Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 878211 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/9/2006 4:54 PM
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But a long time elapsed between then and the point where the miners were thought to be alive.

I get it. But nonetheless, the press had a story that an explosion in which several people might have survived, as opposed to a story in which we knew the Americans involved with the Iraq story were dead.

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Author: frog6 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 878312 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/9/2006 10:43 PM
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spooky,

Just to comment on your assertion about following orders...

You wrote: Even in boot camp, you are trained that given an unlawful order, you follow the order and report it after the fact, not disobey.

I'd be highly surprised to find our new sailors being taught to follow orders they know to be unlawful, then to report it later.

You're correct that an essential factor to a successful military organization is the ability to follow orders...lawful orders. Nobody has any requirement to follow an unlawful order, but here's the rub -- before one refuses an order, one should be prepared to accept the consequences if it is subsequently determined that the order was indeed lawful. And those consequences are usually severe if the member refused a lawful order.

That is what is supposed to give active duty military members pause -- that before they say "no sir/ma'am", they understand the potential cliff they are walking off.

Of course, if the order is unlawful and the servicemember knows it in his/her gut, then they refuse it with the confidence that they will be found to be in the right, and there will be no consequences to him/her (indeed, it is the individual who gave the unlawful order who will be punished).

But -- to state again -- while we all swear to "obey the orders of those appointed over us", none of us are required to execute an unlawful order -- and it is no defense to claim that one was ordered to do something immoral/illegal/unethical.

Cheers,

frog6

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Author: frog6 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 878316 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/9/2006 10:48 PM
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By the way, to clarify -- spooky is also correct that nobody can refuse to deploy on the grounds that in his/her opinion it is an unlawful order, since of course it is lawful.

Final clarification on spooky's point that "The decision making about whether to go to war or not was taken from the military's hands a long time ago."

In the United States, the military has never had the decision-making power to determine whether to go to war or not...one of the biggest reasons our civil-military system, despite numerous imperfections and imperfect individuals involved, has survived.

frog6

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Author: spookysquid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 878408 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/10/2006 9:35 AM
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Frog,
In boot camp, this very question came up and the answer us young squids received was, follow the order, and report it later. We asked, what if it's blatantly unlawful, like killing babies or something, and then the answers started to change. I think the real answer is, as a young service member, your ability to determine whether something is unlawful or not may not be that good. You are not a JAG and don't have one at your disposal, so, generally speaking, trust in those appointed over you and seek out the JAG at the first chance you get. As you get older, if you get to sit through a couple of LOAC briefs, then you start to understand and THEN you would have the capacity to say, no sir/maam, that is not correct and I will not follow that order, etc. It's a matter of education, experience, and personal strength, which is all develped at different rates and different levels and is most definitly not present in boot camp. We are trained to follow orders. That is our mission and our job, so that's what we do. The arguement that "I was ordered to do it" falls apart as soon as it is demonstrated that you either didn't think it was wrong, or you didn't seek legal advise as soon as you could. Timing is a big part of it.

All that being said, there is no such thing as an unlawful war if both the president and congress signed off on it. Just because it is a stupid war, doesn't mean it's unlawful and that is exactly why I felt something needed to be said to address that misguided post.

Thanks for your posts Frog. Are we related by service?

-spookysquid

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Author: Commodore64 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 878558 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/10/2006 3:15 PM
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"Even in boot camp, you are trained that given an unlawful order, you follow the order and report it after the fact, not disobey."

Huh?

What Army were you in?

In the US Army,you do NOT follow an order that you know is unlawful. You are required to obey all LAWFUL orders given to you by your superiors.

If your commanding officer tells you to wipe out a village full of innocent civilians, you do NOT follow that order! The guys who shot up My Lai also had it wrong- luckily for some of those civilians, a helicopter pilot, Hugh Thompson, stopped the slaughter.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/07/national/07thompson.html

"Just following orders" is NOT an excuse for committing war crimes- it didn't work at Nuremberg, and it won't fly in the US military either...

I'd rather take my chances with a court martial anytime than follow an obviously unlawful order.

jb

...glad I haven't been recalled to serve in Iraq

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Author: spookysquid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 878613 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/10/2006 5:10 PM
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Navy boot camp, and like I said, the jist was that you don't really have to follow an unlawful order, but if there's any doubt, you should go ahead and follow and then ask the JAG when you're done.

I wasn't saying that they SHOULD randomly obey unlawful orders (how'd we get on this topic anyways?). And I think My Lai and Nurenberg are extreme examples of the worst. No one thinks you SHOULD follow an unlawful order, I was just recounting the confusion that was put out when I went through. Sorry for the confusion.

-spookysquid

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Author: frog6 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 879231 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/11/2006 10:17 PM
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We asked, what if it's blatantly unlawful, like killing babies or something, and then the answers started to change. I think the real answer is, as a young service member, your ability to determine whether something is unlawful or not may not be that good.

spooky,

I agree with your point there -- and from what it sounds like, you guys got an answer initially from your instructor that was the standard reply -- which of course would be to follow the order -- but it sounds as if once you began couching it into a battlefield situation where it was something obvious, things started to change.

Reality is -- war is ugly, and full of mistakes in judgment, reaction, and execution -- human beings placed in godawful stressful situations where one hopes training will suffice to not only keep the servicemember alive, but also consistently to do the right thing.

In today's era of the "strategic corporal", so much is open to scrutiny -- which places that much more responsibility on those in leadership positions to ensure their orders, commander's guidance, and intent are clear and well within the LOAC. Very tough in an environment like IZ.

And yes, we likely are related by service if your screen name is an indicator...

Cheers,

frog6

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Author: spookysquid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 882674 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/18/2006 2:07 PM
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Are you a real frog? Like those guys with guns who are more like the army than the navy? Or are you like those guys who play with bombs and try not to blow themselves up in the process? Or are you like those guys who like to go underwater for a really long time for random purposes? Or do you just like frogs? I worked a little with the first two on cruise(s). I suspect you are not the first type of frog only from the level of intelligence you display. Not a slam on the first type, just a compliment to the second.

-spookysquid

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Author: frog6 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 882937 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/18/2006 9:09 PM
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Are you a real frog? Like those guys with guns who are more like the army than the navy?

Yup. Started in the surface navy though, so any signs of intelligence are likely just holdovers from my first few years in the fleet...

frog6

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Author: spookysquid Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 883106 of 1977370
Subject: Re: Why Is It? Date: 1/19/2006 10:08 AM
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I saw your rememberance from Desert Storm. A SWO? Oh man. JK. So, you still with the teams or are you out now?

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