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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 22562  
Subject: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 5:58 AM
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The Sharon government implemented the Absentee Property Law in East Jerusalem last July, contrary to Israeli government policy, since Israeli law was extended to East Jerusalem after the Six Day War.

The law means that thousands of Palestinians who live in the West Bank will lose ownership of their property in East Jerusalem.

Government officials estimate the assets total thousands of dunam, while other estimates say they could add up to half of all East Jerusalem property.

According to the law, absentee assets are transfered to the authority of the Custodian for Absentee Property, without the absentee being eligible for any compensation.....

With the recent construction of the fence in the Jerusalem region, Palestinian landholders from Bethlehem and Beit Jala requested permission to continue working their fields, which are within Jerusalem's municipal jurisdiction. The state's response stated that the lands "no longer belong to them, but have been handed over to the Custodian for Absentee Property." At stake are thousands of dunam of agricultural land on which the Palestinians grew olives and grapes throughout the years.

"These people's property was always considered absentee assets, but so long as no fence existed, these people could get to their property and everything was fine from their standpoint," said a senior judicial official involved in the case. "The fence is the result of terrorism. It's not fair that a man becomes an absentee because his tie to his land has been cut without his doing. But morality is one thing, and what is written in our laws another."

The Palestinian landholders and their Israeli lawyers term it a "land grab"


http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/529510.html

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Author: corse Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5206 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 7:03 AM
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They've been terming it a "land Grab" since '48.

Everyone knows, who wants to know that is, that Israel pays Millions in compensation to those Arabs, but the Arabs deny this


corse

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5207 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 7:05 AM
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Everyone knows, who wants to know that is, that Israel pays Millions in compensation to those Arabs, but the Arabs deny this

Sometimes they do, oftentimes it is far too little or nothing all, but that doesn't really matter because they shouldn't be taking the land AT ALL.
Expropriating land out of racist motives is a crime.

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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5208 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 9:45 AM
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I tend to think discussions like this are best kept on PA< but how is this conceptually different from the US law of Eminent Domain?

-silencer

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5209 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 10:10 AM
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I tend to think discussions like this are best kept on PA< but how is this conceptually different from the US law of Eminent Domain?

The US does not expropriate land from people because they are black and deemed unworthy of possessing it.

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5210 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 11:08 AM
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racist motives

I'm always surprised that people call Israel racist. Are you saying that the light-skinned Jews from Europe, the black Jews from Ethiopia, and the brown-skinned Jews from Arab countries like Iraq are all part of a single race?

When a gentile who converts to Judaism, does his race change?

My wife knows of a Jew who converted. Before he converted, he was a Muslim Arab. What was his race before he converted? What is it now?

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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5211 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 11:31 AM
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OK, lets try to address this.

First, are these legal land owners or land holders, akin to squatters?
Do they have legal deeds with surveyed plots designating them as rightful owners?

If so, Israel should compensate them for the full value of the land it appropriated, give them access to the land via gates through the fence or hold on to it on their behalf until the fence issue is resolved( in the mean time, paying them compensation equivalent to a "renter's fee".)

If they do not have legal tenders, too bad. I still don't understand why every bonehead deems the 1949 armistice lines as the defacto border.

If you play on a field adjacent to your home, plant a little herb garden and use it for years, it doesn't give you any legal rights once the city decides to use the area for development. Does it not? you're the lawyer, you should know.

Mark

P.S. your post here is nothing but troll bate. Next time, post it on the PA or CE.


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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5212 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 11:38 AM
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If so, Israel should compensate them for the full value of the land it appropriated, give them access to the land via gates through the fence or hold on to it on their behalf until the fence issue is resolved( in the mean time, paying them compensation equivalent to a "renter's fee".)

Agreed.

-silencer

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5213 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 11:47 AM
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I'm always surprised that people call Israel racist. Are you saying that the light-skinned Jews from Europe, the black Jews from Ethiopia, and the brown-skinned Jews from Arab countries like Iraq are all part of a single race?

No they are not, but then try to google "ethiopian jews" and "racism".
You'll be unpleasantly surprised.


My wife knows of a Jew who converted. Before he converted, he was a Muslim Arab. What was his race before he converted? What is it now?

We use "racism" for lack of a better word when we mean "prejudice because of ethnicity". The emotions involved are pretty much the same, and the motives is as despicable.

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5214 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 11:49 AM
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First, are these legal land owners or land holders, akin to squatters?
Do they have legal deeds with surveyed plots designating them as rightful owners?


Yes they do. They are just "absentees" because they can no longer get to their land because Israel has built a fence between them and it.
"Abandoned land" can be expropriated by the state.


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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5215 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 11:56 AM
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Gosh, and all this time I thought they hated Israel because it's full of Jews.

6

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5216 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 11:57 AM
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Expropriating land out of racist motives is a crime.

If people aren't of two different races, how can the hatred between them be racism?

6

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5218 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 12:00 PM
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Gosh, and all this time I thought they hated Israel because it's full of Jews.


Jews who are living on their land. That's the problem.

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5219 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 12:01 PM
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Go beat off to your *actual* racism and leave us alone.


Do you seriously believe I think less of you because you're a Jew?

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5220 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 12:06 PM
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Do you seriously believe I think less of you because you're a Jew?

Absofrickinlutely.

6

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5221 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 12:08 PM
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Absofrickinlutely.

Are you serious? Well, I don't.
I in fact find you one of the most fascinating posters on TMF, if not because of your jewishness but rather because you're extremely outspoken, witty, and apparently quite depraved.

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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5222 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 12:09 PM
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Jews who are living on their land. That's the problem.

This is the crux of the issue...but misappropriation of land in this case aside, many believe that all Jews in Israel are on "their" land. That's a big problem.

-Silencer

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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5223 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 12:09 PM
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Yes they do. They are just "absentees" because they can no longer get to their land because Israel has built a fence between them and it.
"Abandoned land" can be expropriated by the state.

Do they have legal tenders to prove it? The reason why I am asking this is simply from history and knowledge that most Palestinians never owned the land and mainly rented it from absentee owners. Rest of it was deemed as crown land.

If legal ownership can be proven in a court of law, I agree what Israel is doing is wrong here. See my previous reply as how they should handle it.

Mark



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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5224 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 12:13 PM
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If legal ownership can be proven in a court of law, I agree what Israel is doing is wrong here. See my previous reply as how they should handle it.


I refer you to the B'Tselem report on the matter land expropriation.
This is just business as usual, a great many legimitate land owners (with title and everything) have been simply stripped of their property.
Israel has structured the entire legal system for the occupied territories in such a way as to enable the expropriation of Arab-owned land in favor of Jews.

http://www.btselem.org/english/Publications/Summaries/Land_Grab_2002.asp

I recommend reading the full report at the bottom. I know noone ever does.

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5225 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 12:16 PM
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I in fact find you one of the most fascinating posters on TMF, if not because of your jewishness but rather because you're extremely outspoken, witty, and apparently quite depraved.

I believe you're a Jew-hating racist who wants every person who is racially similar to me and living in the middle east to die in horrible ways.

6

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5226 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 12:19 PM
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Maybe I should point you to at this post although you will probably see those as disingenous or self-deception or whatever:

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=17601742&sort=username

I have written a number of posts on the holocaust and anti-semitism in the past years, but I was only able to find this one.

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5227 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 12:22 PM
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So you think it was wrong to kill 6 million Jews 50 years ago but it's the right thing to kill all Isrealis now.

I'm pretty sure that had you been alive, and a Pole, in 1930 you would have insisted that the Jews should have stayed in Palestine where they came from and not come to live on *your* land in the first place, and that since they were there they deserved whatever they got.

6

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Author: mapicsman One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5228 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 12:23 PM
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I read an article this morning authored by an Israeli Arab which addresses this topic.

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16457

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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5230 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 12:24 PM
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I refer you to the B'Tselem report on the matter land expropriation.
This is just business as usual, a great many legimitate land owners (with title and everything) have been simply stripped of their property.
Israel has structured the entire legal system for the occupied territories in such a way as to enable the expropriation of Arab-owned land in favor of Jews.

http://www.btselem.org/english/Publications/Summaries/Land_Grab_2002.asp

I recommend reading the full report at the bottom. I know noone ever does.

I read the report and I do not see any references to Israel "stealing" anyone's legally owned land. There's not a single mention of Palestinians with legally binding deeds having these deeds ignored and land stolen. All settlements were never built on previously developed land. Doesn't that mean anything to you?

If they are the rightful owners, where are their deeds? I have mine. I do recall a court case involving this very issue where the Palestinian family had deeds, guess who won that round?

Mark


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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5231 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 12:24 PM
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We use "racism" for lack of a better word when we mean "prejudice because of ethnicity".

In other words, you are intentionally using an extremely inflamatory word that doesn't properly describe the phenomenon you believe is taking place?

Just so we can be clear here, what do you mean by the word "ethnicity"? When that Arab Moslem converted, and became an Orthodox Jew, did he change his ethnicity?

The emotions involved are pretty much the same
Do you mean that disliking someone because of his skin color is equivalent (in your mind) to disliking someone because he is trying to kill me?

I believe in judging a man by the content of his character (as exhibited by his behavior), not the color of his skin.

ArBy the way, are you familiar with the Moslem term "dhimmi"?

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5232 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 12:26 PM
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The process employed in taking control of land breaches the basic principles of due procedure and natural justice. In many cases, Palestinian residents were unaware that their land was registered in the name of the state, and by the time they discovered this fact, it was too late to appeal. The burden of proof always rests with the Palestinian claiming ownership of the land. Even if he meets this burden, the land may still be registered in the name of the state on the grounds that it was transferred to the settlement "in good faith.”

If you would read the complete report (linked at the bottom of the page and considerably longer) you would find what you're looking for.

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5233 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 12:29 PM
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In other words, you are intentionally using an extremely inflamatory word that doesn't properly describe the phenomenon you believe is taking place?


No the word captures it very well.


Do you mean that disliking someone because of his skin color is equivalent (in your mind) to disliking someone because he is trying to kill me?


That's not the reason why the land of the Palestinians is expropriated. It's expropriated because they are not Jews and all of the "holy land" supposedly belongs to the Jews.
This idea is similar to how Adolf thought the "Aryans" had a mystical right to the land(the "Lebensraum"="living space") in the east.

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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5234 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 12:31 PM
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The process employed in taking control of land breaches the basic principles of due procedure and natural justice. In many cases, Palestinian residents were unaware that their land was registered in the name of the state, and by the time they discovered this fact, it was too late to appeal. The burden of proof always rests with the Palestinian claiming ownership of the land. Even if he meets this burden, the land may still be registered in the name of the state on the grounds that it was transferred to the settlement "in good faith.”

Show me examples. Many can mean 2, 3 dozen or hundreds. Why aren't they in the superior court waving their deeds? Like I said, I recall reading about this very same issue where the Palestinians displayed proper ownership and the court ruled in their favor.

I am not saying they shouldn't get the land simply from a legal standpoint, they should simply for living there for so long. As part of a future peace settlement, i am sure they'll get. My only beef is with the "stealing" business.

you also fail to see my "field adjacent to your home" analogy.

Mark


Mark


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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5235 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 12:36 PM
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Show me examples. Many can mean 2, 3 dozen or hundreds. Why aren't they in the superior court waving their deeds? Like I said, I recall reading about this very same issue where the Palestinians displayed proper ownership and the court ruled in their favor.

Ok, this weekend I will read the damned report again if you won't do it and I will be back with examples.

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5236 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 12:38 PM
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Hey even if my criticism of Israel were over the top, why do you think my motive has to be anti-semitism?

You're not "critical" of Israel or it's policies. You want all the Jews out or dead. I have seen more than enough of your posting to know this is true.

I personally think that the creation of a Jewish State was a mistake, however 55 years later I can understand that it's a mistake that can't just be undone. You think it can and should be eradicated, you think that the only problem is that a lot of Jews are alive there, and that's why I believe your motive is hatred of Jews. I know you.

What is YOUR motivation for hating Bush?


Bush is one man. Israel is a few million human beings. Weak analogy. If Native Americans started murdering people in the US, and you said, "good, it was their land to start with and therefore all non-native citizens should leave or die", that would be a better analogy and I'd have to examine your motives at that point.

6

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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5237 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 12:48 PM
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Ok, this weekend I will read the damned report again if you won't do it and I will be back with examples.

Well, I downloaded the report and briefly skimmed over it looking for deeds, legal, tenders etc. No luck for any "hard" evidence.

You got a tough case there. Maybe you'll need to drop your charges.

Mark


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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5238 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 12:58 PM
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I read that article in Haaretz yesterday, and I felt disgusted and ashamed. It's difficult to lend your undying support to the country you love when it has such outrageous policies.

As for the rhetorical question in the subject line of this thread. I think the answer is that Palestinians hate Israel because the Palestinians are perhaps the most virulently and unabashedly racist society on earth. If not, it's only because they are outdone by some other Islamic societies.

Elan

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5239 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 1:02 PM
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You're not "critical" of Israel or it's policies. You want all the Jews out or dead. I have seen more than enough of your posting to know this is true. I personally think that the creation of a Jewish State was a mistake, however 55 years later I can understand that it's a mistake that can't just be undone. You think it can and should be eradicated, you think that the only problem is that a lot of Jews are alive there, and that's why I believe your motive is hatred of Jews. I know you.


I believe the creation of Israel was a crime in the way that the creation of the US and Australia was - but neither of these could or should be undone. The difference is that in the case of Israel only relatively few people were killed, and that it happened in an age where you can't get away anymore with this kind of thing.
I do NOT wish to see Israel gone. It would harm a lot of innocents (I consider most of the Israeli population innocent) and wouldn't make anyone whole.
If I post about the "illegitimacy" of Israel it is to make pro-zionists understand that they are fundamtally in the wrong, and that they should think about how to make amends to the Palestinians the way the US have toward the Indians and the Australians toward the Aborigines.
Maybe letting them build some casinos would be a start. But material compensation isn't even the most important issue for me. I have some justice fetish in regard to racist persecution. It bugs me to no end that the Serbs for example have never really accepted what they've done in the rest of Yugoslavia even when they started digging up mass graves with Albanians in the suburbs of Belgrade.
The historic outcome of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is clear to anyone with half a brain.
Israel leaves the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, a Palestinian state is formed and there is mutual recognition and an uneasy peace that can hopefully develop into some kind of beneficial relationship over the longer term.
The refugees may be able to return to the Palestinian state but never to Israel. Israel keeps half of Jerusalem(at least).
There is no real justice to be achieved here. All that can be achieved is a solution that harms the fewest innocents and is politically doable.
I do not wish to see Israel destroyed.
What I want is to see a peace deal implemented AND THE WHOLE DAMN THING TO BE OVER WITH.

Bush is one man. Israel is a few million human beings. Weak analogy. If Native Americans started murdering people in the US, and you said, "good, it was their land to start with and therefore all non-native citizens should leave or die", that would be a better analogy and I'd have to examine your motives at that point.


The natives in the US are now citizens with similar rights. They have no sufficient reason to murder other US citizens. This is similar to the Israeli Arabs.
My dislike toward Israel is geared toward a particular part of its political spectrum - the right-wing zionist one. It is made up mostly of the Likud but also the NRP etc.
You anti-Bush hatred extends to the GOP does it not? That's not a single man, that is a huge organization with many followers, not all of which are simply stupid and misguided. Many indeed believe in the toxic agenda Bush has been foisting upon the rest of the country. So what's your motivation for hating the GOP?

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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5240 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 1:03 PM
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Terrific article mapicsman.

-silencer

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5241 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 1:04 PM
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As for the rhetorical question in the subject line of this thread. I think the answer is that Palestinians hate Israel because the Palestinians are perhaps the most virulently and unabashedly racist society on earth.

Why is it that the Israeli Arabs are not blowing themselves up in Israeli busses? If the Israelis had not decided to oppress the Palestinians and steal for them for close to 40 years do you think they would be that way? The Israeli behavior as described in the article is just business as usual. It is nothing special. This has been going on forever.

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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5242 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 1:06 PM
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I personally think that the creation of a Jewish State was a mistake

Care to flesh this out sofaking?

Our sleepy board is having quite a day.....

-silencer

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5243 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 1:24 PM
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So you think it was wrong to kill 6 million Jews 50 years ago but it's the right thing to kill all Isrealis now.

That's ridiculous. Why do you think I want the Israelis dead?
(I have to admit that I don't much care for the settlers, but that's different issue)

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5244 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 1:26 PM
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Why is it that the Israeli Arabs are not blowing themselves up in Israeli busses?

That's a strange question. I don't see your point. To give a direct answer; part of the reason is that most Israeli Arabs know they have a relatively good thing going, living in a country that is ruled by law, with better economic, educational, and civil rights prospects than in any neighboring country. The other important reason is that law enforcement inside Israel has so far been effective enough to prevent such acts.

If the Israelis had not decided to oppress the Palestinians and steal for them for close to 40 years do you think they would be that way? The Israeli behavior as described in the article is just business as usual. It is nothing special. This has been going on forever.

You mean the 40 years during the first 35 of which Palestinians had complete freedom of movement throughout Israel; when 250,000 Palestinians had regular jobs in Israel raising their living standards higher than any non-oil producing Arab country; when Israel extended its hand in peace allowing a terrorist and his organization to gain international recognition in exchange for the promise of peace.

No, it's not the expropriation of lands that causes the conflict. It's the total refusal of the Palestinians to live in peace with Jews, before 1948 and after, before 1967 and after, and to this day, that is the root cause of the conflict. Read the charter of Hamas. That is what motivates suicide bombers.

Elan

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5245 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 1:31 PM
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You mean the 40 years during the first 35 of which Palestinians had complete freedom of movement throughout Israel; when 250,000 Palestinians had regular jobs in Israel raising their living standards higher than any non-oil producing Arab country; when Israel extended its hand in peace allowing a terrorist and his organization to gain international recognition in exchange for the promise of peace.

The Palestinians were oppressed the whole time. They had no political rights, their land was being taken left and right, their economic development was purposefully undermined so as not to grow competition to domestic Israeli industries and in order to keep them as cheap labor.
I don't think Israel spent much on the school system in the occupied territories either, that was left to organizations such as Hamas.

It's the total refusal of the Palestinians to live in peace with Jews, before 1948 and after, before 1967 and after, and to this day, that is the root cause of the conflict.

Why do the Palestinians refuse to do this in contrast to their brethren that are now Israeli Arabs? Don't you think maybe this has something to do with the completely different treatment those two groups got from Israel?

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5246 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 1:34 PM
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Israel leaves the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, a Palestinian state is formed and there is mutual recognition and an uneasy peace that can hopefully develop into some kind of beneficial relationship over the longer term.

You know as well I as that the vastly more likely outcome is that Israel leaves the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, a Palestinian "state" is formed and is used as a front for an multi-national Arabic army that invades Israel. The outcome is that either Israel as a nation is destroyed or Palestine/Syria/someone else gets a nuke dropped on them. Or both.

You anti-Bush hatred extends to the GOP does it not? That's not a single man, that is a huge organization with many followers, not all of which are simply stupid and misguided. Many indeed believe in the toxic agenda Bush has been foisting upon the rest of the country. So what's your motivation for hating the GOP?

I'm embarassed by Bush; I hate the GOP because they use my money for despicable, underhanded activities that are destructive to the most fundamental concepts this country was founded on - separation of church and state, freedom of speech, and taxation with representation. I think that they've started WWIII and that for some reason they are held entirely unaccountable for their actions. I hate them because as a whole they actually *believe* that lies are preferable to truth. The GOP is a Christian organization and all religions are dedicated to the systematic removal of the natural human regard and desire for truth.

6



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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5247 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 1:39 PM
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Care to flesh this out sofaking?

I don't think it's ever right to take land that you don't own in the first place and give it to someone else. I think the most serious mistakes in modern history have been made by the colonial habit of random-border-drawing. I think it should have easily been foreseen that the Muslims would do anything and everything in their power to destroy a Jewish state in their midst. Hindsight and all that, but still...I think it was one of those cases where good intentions (born of guilt) led straight to hell.

I don't know how things would have panned out had Israel never been granted statehood either - it's an interesting mental exercise but moot now.

6

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Author: MitsouR Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5248 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 1:42 PM
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I have read many of AD's posts and - FWIW - don't personally consider AD an antisemite. I do think that the incessant portrayal in the European press of Israel as a rogue, criminal outlaw state influences every European's view of Israel to some extent. Our media similarly influences our view of lots of countries and events - for good and for bad.

AD compares in no way with, say, C1ickfool, for example, who posts endless negative articles about Israel often with nasty titles. I see AD as reasonably open minded about most things - certainly thoughtful but definitely influenced (like everyone is) by his culture.

The uniform view with which the (non-Jewish) European posters on TMF post about Israel suggests to me a fairly uniform and very negative portrayal of Israel in the European media.

In contrast, Israel gets an extremely positive portrayal in most American media - to the exclusion even of legitimate stories that would show it in a bad light. (Not true of fringe media like Pacifica Radio and some leftists magazines - not that they have much influence at all, really.)

Even people who consider themselves above propaganda can hardly help but be swayed - at least in part - by a certain incessant depiction of something (country, event, person) in a particular light.

FWIW - I think the complete truth about modern day Israel probably can't be found in the American or European press these days. My sympathies for Israel have nothing to do with bad things the Israeli armed forces or government may or may not be doing in the West Bank, Gaza, etc. I try to take the long term view about Israel (with historical perspective) and think that anyone taking the shorter term view is probably going to find themselves skewing anti-Israel.

Just MHO.
MitsouR

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5249 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 1:45 PM
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You know as well I as that the vastly more likely outcome is that Israel leaves the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, a Palestinian "state" is formed and is used as a front for an multi-national Arabic army that invades Israel.

A multi-national Army consisting of who exactly? Syria? Egypt? Iran? Israel could easily woop the collective asses of all the Arab armies and they know it. Plus if they win against all odds and manage to overrun the IDF the great prize is getting nuked. I can see one or two Arab governments signing up to this idea but certainly not a majority.
I can't believe the majority of the troops would be too motivated by this concept either.
The real threat against Israel is the mullahs in Teheran going nuclear. Unfortunately, I don't see what could be done against that.
Against a nuclear attack holding on to the West Bank is going to do no good whatsoever. Indeed it is in the interest of Israel to make peace with the Palestinians as quickly as possible because it would ease the tensions in the entire region and would remove the bulk of the justifications the mullahs might have to suddenly start a nuclear war or give a nuclear warhead to the Hamas.


I'm embarassed by Bush; I hate the GOP because they use my money for despicable, underhanded activities that are destructive to the most fundamental concepts this country was founded on - separation of church and state, freedom of speech, and taxation with representation. I think that they've started WWIII and that for some reason they are held entirely unaccountable for their actions. I hate them because as a whole they actually *believe* that lies are preferable to truth.

See? I hate the Likud for their ideology as well, and for the destruction they bring upon the whole region (Israelis as well as Arabs).


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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5250 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 1:49 PM
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See? I hate the Likud for their ideology as well, and for the destruction they bring upon the whole region (Israelis as well as Arabs).

And what do you think of the PA?

-silencer

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5251 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 1:50 PM
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It's the total refusal of the Palestinians to live in peace with Jews, before 1948 and after, before 1967 and after, and to this day, that is the root cause of the conflict.

Why do the Palestinians refuse to do this in contrast to their brethren that are now Israeli Arabs? Don't you think maybe this has something to do with the completely different treatment those two groups got from Israel?


The Israeli Arabs live as a minority in the state of Israel. They have a lot to lose by taking extremist actions. They are not exposed exclusively to vicious anti-Israeli incitement. They are able to form their own opinions and act in their own best interest much more than their brethren.

The Palestinians in the occupied territories, by contrast, have a corrupt leadership that has endorsed violence and terrorism (it remains to be seen if that is about to change), are subjected to constant incitement and an education of racial and religious hatred, and are egged on from outside to destroy Israel, by people like you who declare Israel illegitimate, and more sinister forces like Iran which promote, train and fund terrorism.

Elan

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5252 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 1:54 PM
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Thank you MitsouR.

AD compares in no way with, say, C1ickfool, for example, who posts endless negative articles about Israel often with nasty titles. I see AD as reasonably open minded about most things - certainly thoughtful but definitely influenced (like everyone is) by his culture.

The German press deals quite carefully with Israel for the most part. The British press like the Guardian is far more aggressive. I don't know what the rest of the European press writes.
This may suprise you, but I only really started to get angry at Israel after I had begun reading the Haaretz regularly. You just couldn't print many of their editorials in a German newspaper, and almost every day there is some outrage committed against some Palestinian or other. I spent most of my life without ever hearing or reading anything really negative about Israel. I grew up thinking of the Israelis as victims that for some unexplained reason are being attacked by those evil Arab terrorists. THAT is the way Israel has been mostly portrayed in the German press, although it has become a bit more critical of Israel in the past years since the peace process was abandoned by Sharon.
Still, if I say to a German what I have been saying about Israel in this thread, I will be invariably seen as an anti-semite unless I constantly add caveats and explanations.

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Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 1:55 PM
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And what do you think of the PA?

The Palestinian Authority?
Well it doesn't exist anymore, for the most part. It used to be very corrupt which was an important reason for the fact that the years under the Oslo agreement were so depressing for the Palestinians.
Arafat was not the ideal statesman, to put it mildly.

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5254 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 1:56 PM
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See? I hate the Likud for their ideology as well, and for the destruction they bring upon the whole region (Israelis as well as Arabs).

At this point I will concede that perhaps your delusion is not intentional and borne out of Jew-hatred. Maybe you're just plain deluded and actually do believe, despite the tons of evidence to the contrary, that Israel could withdraw totally from the territories without being destroyed. I think that's almost 100% impossible and it seems to me it should be obvious to everyone.

I can see one or two Arab governments signing up to this idea but certainly not a majority.
I can't believe the majority of the troops would be too motivated by this concept either.


Riiiiiight. Killing Jews wouldn't motivate any of them. okie dokie.

6

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5255 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 1:56 PM
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The Palestinians in the occupied territories, by contrast, have a corrupt leadership that has endorsed violence and terrorism (it remains to be seen if that is about to change), are subjected to constant incitement and an education of racial and religious hatred, and are egged on from outside to destroy Israel, by people like you who declare Israel illegitimate, and more sinister forces like Iran which promote, train and fund terrorism.

None of this would be true if Israel had treated the Palestinians with respect and had developed the occupied territories economically like it did in Israel.

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5256 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 2:03 PM
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Maybe you're just plain deluded and actually do believe, despite the tons of evidence to the contrary, that Israel could withdraw totally from the territories without being destroyed. I think that's almost 100% impossible and it seems to me it should be obvious to everyone.


I absolutely disagree with this idea and so do a great many Israelis and Jews, among them Kissinger. Now here's someone not really given to fancy delusions of peace and flowers who advocates exactly what I do.

"The territorial dividing line," Kissinger continued, "should be defined by a security fence paralleling the 1967 borders along principles discussed at Camp David and Taba. This would return all the West Bank to Palestinian rule except some 5 to 8 percent needed for the strategic defense of Israel. In return, Israel would transfer some of its current territory to the Palestinian state. Israel has made the offer of compensation at Camp David but has identified parts of the Negev - the southern desert - for that purpose. It would be wiser to transfer territory with significant Arab populations from the northern part of Israel," wrote Kissinger. "Israeli settlements located beyond the dividing line would be subject to Palestinian jurisdiction, which would probably imply their abandonment."

Kissinger has been pushing these ideas in the corridors of the White House and the Republican Party since Arafat's death, and has received a sympathetic hearing among some high officials and has received a sympathetic hearing among some high officials. He is cautioning Jewish friends that if Sharon throws a wrench into the works of Bush's vision and prevents the establishment of a Palestinian state by the end of the current term, he will lose the support of the United States.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/529503.html


Riiiiiight. Killing Jews wouldn't motivate any of them. okie dokie.


Oh I am sure it would, but contrary to public misconception the vast majority of Arabs wants to LIVE, and not to be nuked. 72 virgins doesn't appear to cut it for everyone.
I suppose if you actually had to de-virginize a girl you realize that having someone less morally pure and more experienced is much better.

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5258 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 2:09 PM
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Kissinger by the way for me represents what the GOP today has lost.
The hard-nosed realism, the competence and effectiveness that used to go with the standard evilness of the Republicans.
I know Kissinger is not very popular with the left, but he was certainly competent and effective.
Today's GOP is only evil but also completely delusional and incompetent. You've got all the disadvantages without any of the advantages they used to have.

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5259 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 2:10 PM
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None of this would be true if Israel had treated the Palestinians with respect and had developed the occupied territories economically like it did in Israel.

Well, that's quite hypothetical. The policy after the six day war was that Israel was holding the territory temporarily, until the neighboring countries were willing to recognize it and sign peace agreements. Things never worked out quite as envisioned, but the temporary nature of the occupation remained. The occupation has been a pact with the devil. It created a hellish situation from which Israel is hard put to extricate itself. The biggest danger to Israel's survival today is not an attack from outside. It is the internal rift between those who are willing to make sacrifices for peace and those who wish to follow messianic delusions. Allowing Jewish settlements in territories that are, by Israeli law, under military occupation has been a disastrous mistake.

Elan


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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5260 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 2:11 PM
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Elan,
I completely agree with that assessment.

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Author: GunnarSK Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5261 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 2:15 PM
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So you think it was wrong to kill 6 million Jews 50 years ago but it's the right thing to kill all Isrealis now.

I'm pretty sure that had you been alive, and a Pole, in 1930 you would have insisted that the Jews should have stayed in Palestine where they came from and not come to live on *your* land in the first place, and that since they were there they deserved whatever they got.

6


The Poles did it? Again?

Gunnar

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5262 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 2:20 PM
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"Israel has made the offer of compensation at Camp David but has identified parts of the Negev - the southern desert - for that purpose. It would be wiser to transfer territory with significant Arab populations from the northern part of Israel," wrote Kissinger.

One big problem with that. The Israeli Arab residents in towns adjacent to the West Bank, like Bakka el Gharbia, Umm el Fahm, etc., are vehemently opposed to the idea that they will be annexed to the Palestinian state.

Elan

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5263 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 4:29 PM
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I hate the Likud ...

I don't hate anybody. Not even you. I am surprised to see you admit to being hateful. But given that you spew your hatred publicly for all to see, that fact that you are hateful isn't news.

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5264 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 4:40 PM
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THAT is the way Israel has been mostly portrayed in the German press, although it has become a bit more critical of Israel in the past years since the peace process was abandoned by Sharon.

A bit of historic revisionism this is.

The peace process was abandoned by Yasser Arafat when he walked away from Camp David in July 2000, rejecting an offer for a Palestinian state that was very similar to what you believe to be a fair solution. Soon after he walked away he launched the Intifada. All this being long before Sharon came to power.

Elan


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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5265 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 4:48 PM
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I have read many of AD's posts and - FWIW - don't personally consider AD an antisemite. I do think that the incessant portrayal in the European press of Israel as a rogue, criminal outlaw state influences every European's view of Israel to some extent. Our media similarly influences our view of lots of countries and events - for good and for bad.

AD compares in no way with, say, C1ickfool, for example, who posts endless negative articles about Israel often with nasty titles. I see AD as reasonably open minded about most things - certainly thoughtful but definitely influenced (like everyone is) by his culture.

Just MHO.
MitsouR
==============

I have to agree with Misour. I don't believe for a second that AD is antisemitic or wants to see Israelis dead.

There is a distinction to be made between criticism of Israel and hatred of Israel. AD cricizes, I don't get that he hates. Not at all.

Dov

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5266 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 4:49 PM
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I don't hate anybody. Not even you. I am surprised to see you admit to being hateful.

I don't suppose I really hate either the Likud or the GOP.
What I feel is dislike - but we've become too careless with the word "hate" I guess.


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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5267 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 4:52 PM
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The peace process was abandoned by Yasser Arafat when he walked away from Camp David in July 2000, rejecting an offer for a Palestinian state that was very similar to what you believe to be a fair solution. Soon after he walked away he launched the Intifada. All this being long before Sharon came to power.


That's not true. Here's what a REAL expert says:

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=21937357



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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5268 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 4:52 PM
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I have to agree with Misour. I don't believe for a second that AD is antisemitic or wants to see Israelis dead.

Thank you, dov.

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Author: TalkHard Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5269 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 6:08 PM
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The peace process was abandoned by Yasser Arafat when he walked away from Camp David in July 2000, rejecting an offer for a Palestinian state that was very similar to what you believe to be a fair solution. Soon after he walked away he launched the Intifada. All this being long before Sharon came to power.

Um, no. The peace process was continued after Camp David, for example with the negotiations at Taba. It wasn't until Sharon was in power that negotiations stopped.

Sharon's current efforts are more transparent than ever, cutting off ties with Abbas before he was even sworn in, and choosing now to threaten upping the violence.

TalkHard

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5270 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 6:15 PM
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The peace process was abandoned by Yasser Arafat when he walked away from Camp David in July 2000, rejecting an offer for a Palestinian state that was very similar to what you believe to be a fair solution. Soon after he walked away he launched the Intifada. All this being long before Sharon came to power.


That's not true. Here's what a REAL expert says:

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=21937357


And who is this REAL expert? And what makes him an expert?

Arafat blew the peace process to smithereens in September 2000. Then in December 2000 Barak and Clinton made one more desperate attempt with the Taba talks to reach an agreement, while terrorism was raging all around. When pressed for an answer, Arafat once again came back with a resounding NO! Soon after the collapse of Taba, Barak lost the election and Sharon became prime minister. It is truly disingenuous to blame Sharon for the mess that Arafat caused before Sharon was ever elected.

The propaganda routine is familiar. Sharon became a focal point for vilification of Israel as soon as he was elected, with all the notorious antisemitic-style cartoons and blood libels. Don't fall for it. Stick with facts.

Elan


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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5271 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 6:41 PM
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And who is this REAL expert? And what makes him an expert?


He doesn't really say. We suspect he is some kind of diplomat or something. He has in the past demonstrated serious insider knowledge.
Ask mitnamuna for his credentials ; )


The propaganda routine is familiar. Sharon became a focal point for vilification of Israel as soon as he was elected, with all the notorious antisemitic-style cartoons and blood libels. Don't fall for it. Stick with facts.

Sharon clearly ran an election campaign AGAINST the peace talks that were going on at the time and he DID break them off once in power. Do you deny that?
Check this out:

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/01/28/mideast.01/

Israeli Likud prime minister candidate Ariel Sharon is dismissing last week's Israeli-Palestinian peace talks as a failed campaign ploy by a desperate Prime Minister Ehud Barak. Sharon leads voter polls by a wide margin.

Six days of marathon talks in the Egyptian resort of Taba between Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami and top Palestinian Authority negotiators ended on Saturday with both sides saying they were closer to agreement than ever before.
....
Although both Israel and the Palestinians expressed hope of resuming the talks shortly after Israel's election, Sharon -- who staunchly opposes the Israeli concessions that Barak has offered -- made it clear that those proposals would no longer be on the table if he wins.


Eight days later Sharon was elected Prime Minister and that was the end of all hopes.


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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5272 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/20/2005 7:34 PM
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Eight days later Sharon was elected Prime Minister and that was the end of all hopes.

My personal view is that the Israeli electorate was right at that point to kick out Barak and choose Sharon. The mockery of the peace process had gone too far. Arafat's strategy was to send terrorists out on their missions by night and say no to all offers at the negotiating table by day. As they say, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. It is abundantly clear that Arafat did not negotiate for peace in good faith. I believe he never did. Sharon didn't kill the peace process. He couldn't. It was already dead.

Elan



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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5273 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/21/2005 7:57 AM
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My personal view is that the Israeli electorate was right at that point to kick out Barak and choose Sharon. The mockery of the peace process had gone too far. Arafat's strategy was to send terrorists out on their missions by night and say no to all offers at the negotiating table by day.

That wasn't Sharon's reason for rejecting the peace talks. The stated reason was that there were simply too many (territorial) concessions. He wasn't (and still isn't) prepared to give up the West Bank and neither is most of his party.

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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5274 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/21/2005 11:21 AM
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He doesn't really say. We suspect he is some kind of diplomat or something. He has in the past demonstrated serious insider knowledge.
Ask mitnamuna for his credentials ; )

Hey, what makes you think I know what's he up to? All we know he's a diplomat of some sort, working in Israel for the past 5 or so years. I have no idea who he works for but I suspect it could be for the UN or some political think tank.

He's no expert and relies heavily on revisionist theories. I remember how heavily he quoted Benny Morris's first book and completely ceased using it after the second book came out.



Eight days later Sharon was elected Prime Minister and that was the end of all hopes.


That's all fine and dandy but Taba failed before Sharon took power. In addition, 8 days later he was elected but his government only formed a while later... inauguration rings a bell?

Mark


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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5275 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/21/2005 11:23 AM
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That wasn't Sharon's reason for rejecting the peace talks. The stated reason was that there were simply too many (territorial) concessions. He wasn't (and still isn't) prepared to give up the West Bank and neither is most of his party.

Comon AD, he's getting out of Gaza and the northern West bank. No one even dreamed he'd be the one to do it. Maybe you should really focus on the facts and timelines for a change instead of reading crap from PalestineRemembered.com

Mark


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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5276 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/21/2005 11:46 AM
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Comon AD, he's getting out of Gaza and the northern West bank.


Yeah but he is combining the leaving of Gaza with as he himself says solidification of the grip on the West Bank. He is building a gigantic wall/fence around the parts he intends to keep.


Comon AD, he's getting out of Gaza and the northern West bank. No one even dreamed he'd be the one to do it. Maybe you should really focus on the facts and timelines for a change instead of reading crap from PalestineRemembered.com


I don't read "palestinerembered" or "electronicintifadah" or whatever. I've spent way more time reading "us-israel.org" etc than their arab counterparts.

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Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/21/2005 11:48 AM
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That's all fine and dandy but Taba failed before Sharon took power. In addition, 8 days later he was elected but his government only formed a while later... inauguration rings a bell?


You don't think negotiations between Barak and Arafat would have been quite useless after Barak had been voted out of office? I doubt Barak would have done such a stunt.

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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5278 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/21/2005 1:36 PM
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You don't think negotiations between Barak and Arafat would have been quite useless after Barak had been voted out of office? I doubt Barak would have done such a stunt.

But you seem to forget... the negotiations failed 8 days before the election. Arafat would not let go of the "right of return" and autonomy over East Jerusalem. I bet he would have said "no" even if these were offered.

Mark


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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5279 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/21/2005 1:39 PM
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Yeah but he is combining the leaving of Gaza with as he himself says solidification of the grip on the West Bank. He is building a gigantic wall/fence around the parts he intends to keep

Oy vey. If his real purpose was "greater Israel", he won't have left Gaza.

don't read "palestinerembered" or "electronicintifadah" or whatever. I've spent way more time reading "us-israel.org" etc than their arab counterparts.


Really? I seem to recall some of your posts baring striking similarities to propaganda pieces from such sites. Maybe it's all coincidental.

Mark


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Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/21/2005 2:19 PM
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Oy vey. If his real purpose was "greater Israel", he won't have left Gaza.

AFAIK Gaza has no biblical relevance.

Really? I seem to recall some of your posts baring striking similarities to propaganda pieces from such sites. Maybe it's all coincidental.

It is. I quote everything I read. I see little value in reading sites that are clearly biased in favor of my position and have no inhibition or even reason to be truthful.
I want an objective picture, after all.

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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5282 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/21/2005 2:51 PM
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Oy vey. If his real purpose was "greater Israel", he won't have left Gaza.
---
AFAIK Gaza has no biblical relevance.

You really got to stop harping that tune. The presence in the territories was purely for defensive purposes and still is. Anyone claiming Jews have a right to be there for biblical reasons does not get my vote.

I bet you know, from the edge of the west bank, you can knock out planes taking off from ben Gurion with the sholder fired missles Russia was about to sell to Syria ( possibly even less advanced).
Mar

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Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/21/2005 3:13 PM
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You really got to stop harping that tune. The presence in the territories was purely for defensive purposes and still is. Anyone claiming Jews have a right to be there for biblical reasons does not get my vote.



And the settlements are for what purpose exactly?


You should read the political platform of the Likud then.

"The Jordan River shall be the eastern border of the State of Israel, south of Lake Kinneret. This will be the permanent border between the State of Israel and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. The Kingdom of Jordan may become a partner in the final arrangement between Israel and the Palestinians, in areas agreed upon in the negotiations".

http://web.idirect.com/~cic/publications/democracyInAction/chapterTwo.html

That doesn't sound too progressive now does it?
I know they have also in their political platform that all Jews have the zionist right to settle anywhere in the occupied territories they wish.
Unfortunately, it is impossible to find the complete platform on the web (at least in english).
Perhaps you know where to get it?


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Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/21/2005 3:34 PM
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"The Jordan River shall be the eastern border of the State of Israel, south of Lake Kinneret. This will be the permanent border between the State of Israel and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. The Kingdom of Jordan may become a partner in the final arrangement between Israel and the Palestinians, in areas agreed upon in the negotiations".

http://web.idirect.com/~cic/publications/democracyInAction/chapterTwo.html

Yep, it needs to get updated. Sharon is not following that tune hence he's got a few dissident members who object to his stance as well.

In my opinion that goal is unattainable as long as Palestinians are present and since I am against their removal/expulsion, it's pretty clear where I stand. That charter point is simply illogical, not just unattainable. Even if you consider the security fence as a future border, it still goes against the platform. I am sorry, but your case is a weak one.


I know they have also in their political platform that all Jews have the zionist right to settle anywhere in the occupied territories they wish.
Unfortunately, it is impossible to find the complete platform on the web (at least in english).
Perhaps you know where to get it?

I never heard of it nor would I know where to find it. Sorry.

Incidentally, you completely ignored my point as to the defensive nature. If you do agree with my assessment, you should say so. I do take your silence as admission of agreement. It would be nice if you'd confirm your agreement or explain why you disagree .

Mark


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Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/21/2005 4:01 PM
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Incidentally, you completely ignored my point as to the defensive nature. If you do agree with my assessment, you should say so.

No actually I have argued the counterpoint many times.
I'll do it again, if you wish.
Israel doesn't need the "strategical depth" the territories provide.
Because of today's massive conventional superiority and its huge nuclear arsenal it faces no conventional military threat anymore.

So abandoning the territories could cause terrorism? In contrast to now, yes? In contrast to now?
The only viable strategy to get rid of terrorism is to abandon the occupied territories, help build up a state and promise massive retaliation if terrorism persists.
The Palestinians have a vital interest in keeping their end of the bargain.

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Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/21/2005 5:06 PM
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Israel doesn't need the "strategical depth" the territories provide.
Because of today's massive conventional superiority and its huge nuclear arsenal it faces no conventional military threat anymore.

Again, you completely missed my point on how easy it is to shoot down a plane taking off from Ben Gurion. Take a look at a map, why don't you.


So abandoning the territories could cause terrorism? In contrast to now, yes? In contrast to now?

Didn't think you meant to repeat but I agree with you. Terrorism will rise if Israel bolts out without proper agreements in place (as part of a peace settlement).


The only viable strategy to get rid of terrorism is to abandon the occupied territories, help build up a state and promise massive retaliation if terrorism persists.
The Palestinians have a vital interest in keeping their end of the bargain.

Yep, it sounds so good on paper but do you honestly think the world is going to allow Israel to punish the many in ways never done before (artillery barrages) for the actions of the few? what if the PA is unable to stop all missile firing, would they be held accountable? Who would the world side with considering its current stance?

The Palestinian people need to realize and aspire to freedom and free enterprise with transparent government and freedom of speech. Hamas's days will be numbered and Israel will be able to afford to pull out.

Mark


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Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/21/2005 5:20 PM
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That's all fine and dandy but Taba failed before Sharon took power. In addition, 8 days later he was elected but his government only formed a while later... inauguration rings a bell?

You don't think negotiations between Barak and Arafat would have been quite useless after Barak had been voted out of office?


The negotiations between Barak and Arafat were useless before Barak was voted out of office. They would have been useless even if Barak had been re-elected. They were useless because Arafat chose to make them useless.

Elan

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Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/21/2005 5:31 PM
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Oy vey. If his real purpose was "greater Israel", he won't have left Gaza.

AFAIK Gaza has no biblical relevance.


That's a weak straw. To someone who seeks biblical justification for holding on to the territories there is no difference between Gaza and Hebron or any other place, they are all part of Erets Yisrael. That's why the settlers are up-in-arms about evacuating Gaza.

To those who wish to continue to villify Sharon at all cost, the cognitive dissonance is almost unbearable. How can you accept his plan to withdraw from Gaza at face value without letting him off the hook? You have to find ways to excuse him; to explain how his withdrawal plan doesn't represent any change of heart; to explain that withdrawing from Gaza is just a cheap and meaningless trick along the way to his evil nationalistic vision.

Wake up. Understand that the reality is not following your script. Rather than paint events to suit your preconceptions, look at events as they are and put aside your preconceptions when events prove you wrong.

Elan


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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5290 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/21/2005 5:40 PM
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The only viable strategy to get rid of terrorism is to abandon the occupied territories, help build up a state and promise massive retaliation if terrorism persists.

I could have said that a while back, before 2000. I supported the Oslo agreements, the idea that the Palestinians should be allowed their own state which would live at peace with Israel. That if they violated the agreements we could legitimately respond with force. And then, what happened when the Palestinians violated the agreement and launched terrorism on a massive scale? Did the world say - Yes, you have a right to respond, to defend yourselves? No, the world, the Europeans primarily, sided with the terrorists and accused Israel of being an oppressor. Paradoxically, Israel is persecuted now in public opinion more than it ever was before it stretched its hand out trying to reach a peaceful settlement.

So now, when you say "promise massive retaliation if terrorism persists", all I can say is - been there done that. I can't trust that you will support Israel next time, because you wouldn't support Israel last time.

Elan


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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5291 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/21/2005 6:25 PM
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I could have said that a while back, before 2000. I supported the Oslo agreements, the idea that the Palestinians should be allowed their own state which would live at peace with Israel. That if they violated the agreements we could legitimately respond with force. And then, what happened when the Palestinians violated the agreement and launched terrorism on a massive scale?

You do remember how the last intifadah started, do you?
The Palestinians started rioting because of the Sharon visit to the temple mount and because of general frustration about the deterioation of their economic situation during the Oslo peace process, the ongoing Israeli landgrab and PA corruption and threw stones. The Israelis killed over 160 of those rioters (and some Israeli Arabs to boot) before the first bomb attacks were launched.
When the Al-Aqsa intifada began the Palestinians had nothing to lose.
Give them something to lose. Give them a state. Give them a measure of economic prosperity or at least HOPE for economic prosperity.
That's key to winning the war on terror.

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Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/21/2005 6:26 PM
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Wake up. Understand that the reality is not following your script. Rather than paint events to suit your preconceptions, look at events as they are and put aside your preconceptions when events prove you wrong.


How can you ignore what he is doing in the West Bank? That he is absolutely entrenching Israel there?

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Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/21/2005 7:33 PM
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How can you ignore what he is doing in the West Bank? That he is absolutely entrenching Israel there?

Sharon is fighting internally to implement a major shift in policy. He can't do it all at once. Even if he could, he shouldn't. Israel should not withdraw from all of the West Bank until it has what it seeks - a peace agreement, and security guarantees.

In the interim, you are closing your eyes to the tectonic shift in policy. The settlers understand it. His party "rebels" understand it. They understand that he has changed ideologically to accepting the inevitability of a Pelstinian state, and the inevitability of removing Jewish settlements. Sharon has set in motion the precedent of removing settlements.

You refuse to see this shift because it destroys your myth of Sharon The Evil.

Elan


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Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/21/2005 8:37 PM
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Sharon is fighting internally to implement a major shift in policy. He can't do it all at once. Even if he could, he shouldn't. Israel should not withdraw from all of the West Bank until it has what it seeks - a peace agreement, and security guarantees.

Why's he building MORE settlements and expropriating MORE Palestinian land then?
It is pretty obvious where the damned wall should be built: On the Green Line, or close to it, and not all through the West Bank.
YOU'RE not seeing the obvious: Sharon is withdrawing from Gaza because it is clearly impossible to hold onto it (8000 settlers and how many million Palestinians)? and because it gets the US off his back to some extent.

"The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process," Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's senior adviser Dov Weisglass has told Haaretz.

"And when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress."


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/485491.html

See? Straight from the horse's mouth. You just refuse to see it because it proves (again) that Sharon is nothing but an evil old racist.
Arafat's death of course presents something of a problem, but I am fairly certain Sharon will be able to overcome this.

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Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/22/2005 12:40 AM
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YOU'RE not seeing the obvious: Sharon is withdrawing from Gaza because it is clearly impossible to hold onto it (8000 settlers and how many million Palestinians)? and because it gets the US off his back to some extent.

"The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process," Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's senior adviser Dov Weisglass has told Haaretz.

See? Straight from the horse's mouth.


Not from the horse's mouth but from an ill-advised advisor. Sharon denied what Weisglas said. He has also made subsequent speeches in which he clearly said that a Palestinian state is inevitable and that faced with the choice of continuing to rule over all the Palestinians or reaching a settlement in exchange for territory, Israel must go for a settlement. Yes, he believes all the land belongs to Israel, and he is loath to give up the territory. But he has come to the conclusion that the sacrifice must be made and that's what he intends to do.

Elan


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Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/22/2005 12:52 AM
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You do remember how the last intifadah started, do you?

I remember well. You are trying to rewrite history.

The Palestinians started rioting because of the Sharon visit to the temple mount and because of general frustration about the deterioation of their economic situation during the Oslo peace process, the ongoing Israeli landgrab and PA corruption and threw stones. The Israelis killed over 160 of those rioters (and some Israeli Arabs to boot) before the first bomb attacks were launched.
When the Al-Aqsa intifada began the Palestinians had nothing to lose.
Give them something to lose. Give them a state. Give them a measure of economic prosperity or at least HOPE for economic prosperity.
That's key to winning the war on terror.


Sharon's visit to the temple mount was the pretext for an intifada that had been planned and put in motion on the day the Camp David talks broke down. Camp David was more than a break down of negotiations. It was the point at which Arafat concluded that his tactic up to that point, of gaining concessions at the negotiating table while making none of his own, had reached its end. Barak and Clinton had told him so - that he must make some concessions of his own to move forward, and he wouldn't do it. So the next phase of the struggle to destroy Israel was launched - the violent phase.

The Palestinians had a lot to lose at that point. They had the PA. They had administrative and security control over 98% of the Palestinian population. They had an offer of a Palestinian state on 97% of the territory of the west bank and gaza and east Jerusalem. Arafat chose to throw away the hope, and potentially throw away what he had already gained, because he wanted a lot more. All the gains and hopes given to the Palestinians up to that point did not prevent or win the war on terror. They brought about a war of terror.

Elan


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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5297 of 22562
Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/22/2005 3:55 AM
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Not from the horse's mouth but from an ill-advised advisor. Sharon denied what Weisglas said.


Of course he did. Weisglas' blabbing was a diplomatic catastrophe. That doesn't make what he said less true and it fits exactly with what the Sharon government is doing on the ground.

But he has come to the conclusion that the sacrifice must be made and that's what he intends to do.

Well sort of. WHAT sacrifice is the question. It should be clear to you that he is determined to keep what is probably the majority of the West Bank for Israel. I agree that he is prepared to give the Palestinians some kind of pretense self-administration in fenced-in South African style Bantustans as long as Israel retains overall control.
They can then can then call that a "state" if they want to.

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Subject: Re: Why Palestinians hate Israel Date: 1/22/2005 3:56 AM
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Sharon's visit to the temple mount was the pretext for an intifada that had been planned and put in motion on the day the Camp David talks broke down.

Do you have any kind of proof for this or is this just idle speculation taken from the editorials of the jpost?

The Palestinians had a lot to lose at that point. They had the PA. They had administrative and security control over 98% of the Palestinian population.

Broken up by Israeli security zones and without the water. Sort of like having control over the US without the big rivers.

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