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Author: mishedlo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 31081  
Subject: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/5/2005 2:01 AM
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Wildflowers Destroyed
hundreds or even more of them on my neighbors property

false solomons seal
rue anemone
false rue anemone
wood anemone
shooting stars
jacobs ladder

I dug some up and saved them but not enough.
Neighbor is building a new house and I rescued some from where the driveway is going in.

He also chopped down about 7 white oak trees some as much as 4 feet in diameter. Many flowers were around the trees. I took some the other day and knew the trees were coming down today but thought I could get some after trees down. Sad mistake. The heavy equipment totally trashed everything. Then they ground down the stumps and killed everything around the trees for sure.

Really sad. I saved maybe 50-100 and took all the shooting stars I could find (just a handful) but a really nice clump of them that was there last year was obliterated already during some preliminary clearing.

I have a ton of false solomons seals so I do not feel so bad about those and I took some big clumps of jacobs ladders but hundreds or possibly thousands of the first 4 in the list above were destroyed.

When we built our house I went around and gathered every flower I could find. I did not know that shooting stars could be transplanted but they moved great. I have a very nice patch of them. Deer eat my false solomons seal and I have real solomons seal as well. Have to spray both of those.

http://www.wnrmag.com/stories/2003/apr03/stars.htm
http://www.nwgardening.com/native.solomon.html
http://www.all-creatures.org/picb/wfshl-solomonsseal-false.html
http://ncnatural.com/wildflwr/sseal.html
http://www.all-creatures.org/picb/wfshl-rueanemone.html
http://www.illinoiswildflowers.info/woodland/plants/fs_anemone.htm


Mish
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Author: Trini209 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17571 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/5/2005 7:08 AM
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I hate it when a property is denuded to build a new house - or for any other reason.

One of the best features of our home, at least up until last year, is that no other house was visible from our back yard or from any of our windows. Complete privacy. Last year the guy next door had all the screening of trees, bushes, brambles, and vines, cut down between his house and ours including several black cherry and locust trees. The contractor went over the boundary by 10 or 15 feet, and cut down a bunch of our stuff! Boy, were we mad. We think he was a fool to cut down his own vegetation, but OURS! I'll never know if clearing part of our property was deliberate or not.

We went over to complain and he sheepishly appologized and offered to put up a wire fence on the property line, which he promptly did.

Now his house is in plain view, and we can even see the next house down the road. I never needed curtains for privacy before. We hung a stained glass panel in front of the one of the two bedroom windows he could clearly see into.

I'm letting the brambles and vines grow back, but don't know what to do abour the lost trees. Wayside Gardens is selling their Thuga trees for $9 each, a good sale, but they come in small pots, so you know they're probably only a foot high. I need a quick, inexpensive screen, if any of you have any ideas.

Trini



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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17572 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/5/2005 9:53 AM
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He also chopped down about 7 white oak trees some as much as 4 feet in diameter.

Moron.

JLC

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Author: eastender Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17573 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/5/2005 1:07 PM
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It's horrible to watch. I just drove by what was once a pristine patch of woodland in my old town here in New Jersey. It was completely gone--denuded by heavy equipment and the remains piled 20 feet high in the middle of the devastation. Condominiums will replace everything that lived there until last week.

I like to think that somebody went in and did some plant rescue like you did, but I doubt it. There was a ten year fight to save that wooded place and I am sure the developers didn't let the "tree huggers" in on their plans.

When will we ever learn?

eastender (tree hugger)

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Author: Jeanwa Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17574 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/5/2005 1:59 PM
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There was a ten year fight to save that wooded place and I am sure the developers didn't let the "tree huggers" in on their plans.

When will we ever learn?

eastender (tree hugger)


Just trying to understand........

Where do you expect people to live? If there wasn't a demand the "developers" wouldn't be developing.

If you wanted to save the wooded area so much why didn't you buy it and preserve it?

I'm assuming your and your all family live on the same land they did 100 years or so ago and haven't had to "use" more land to survive.

As people live longer, and more children survive, more land is going to be used for dwellings.

Jean




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Author: buffalogal100 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17575 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/5/2005 2:00 PM
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When will we ever learn?

eastender (tree hugger)


***

Count me in on the tree hugging. Makes me want to whack a developer with one of their own 2X4's.

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17576 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/5/2005 2:21 PM
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Just trying to understand........

Where do you expect people to live? If there wasn't a demand the "developers" wouldn't be developing.



sad, but true.

does anyone live on land that didn't use to be forest?


-j

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Author: eastender Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17577 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/5/2005 3:40 PM
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If you wanted to save the wooded area so much why didn't you buy it and preserve it?

If I could have afforded to do that, Jean, I would have. I am sure you really weren't trying to understand at all.

eastender

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Author: Jeanwa Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17578 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/5/2005 5:55 PM
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I am sure you really weren't trying to understand at all.

Quite the contrary. I would once like to see an explanation from a "tree hugger" to justify their living in the "forest" but not allowing others to do so.

An explanation for building a big house for themselves, but not wanting any logging done.

There are some people here that bought a piece of land. Then divided it and sold some off to help pay for it. They were then really upset because the people they sold it to wanted to do the same thing. It was okay for them to subdivide, but not the people following. (Neither needed changes in the zoning for that area.)

There is a couple here in town that have a big house by the river. They dammed a section to use as a swimming hole....then got all mad when the Dept of Fish said don't do it....they are also at every protest for keeping the wilderness.

I'm not saying you are like this.....maybe you live in a little mud hut or tent, and are trying to take your little corner back to "nature".

I really don't understand, and would like to.

Jean


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Author: zuzu70 Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17579 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/5/2005 5:57 PM
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Where do you expect people to live? If there wasn't a demand the "developers" wouldn't be developing.

As people live longer, and more children survive, more land is going to be used for dwellings.

---------------------------------------------------

Besides the (slow) growth of US population, there are other reasons for urban- and suburban- sprawl. Land use is growing at a pace something like 3 times the rate of population growth.

One is the fact that household size is decreasing. Due to smaller family units, divorce, and fewer multi-generational households, there are fewer people living per house, therefore there are going to be more houses given the same population.

Another reason is the increasing width of residential streets and growing plat sizes. Think about the 50-, 80-, and 100-year-old neighborhoods in your town. Are the streets as wide as those currently being built? Are the yards as big? In my town, a standard city plat used to be 60X110; now average is 100X120, but moreover there are tons of nearby rural subdivisions with acre lots (regular houses...I'm not talking farms). Basically, a house on an acre lot is taking up the space that 6.6 houses used to take up, or the space that 3.7 houses on the smaller current lots take up. That doesn't include the extra land that is used by the streets through those subdivisions. The bigger the plats, the more street acreage you're going to have to get from one house to the next.

Buildings seem to take up way more space than they used to. My hometown built a 700-student capacity high school around 1975, and the whole complex including building and sports fields took up roughly 5 acres. The new high school, built in 2002, has double the capacity of the old school, but it is built on roughly 40 acres. I feel sorry for the kids who walk to that school; it'd take a person 10 minutes just to walk down the entrance drive and across the parking lot. When I walked to the old high school, it was maybe 30 seconds from the street into the building. We're using more and more concrete for the different turning lanes, parking, and such. The other day, I dropped off DH at Home Depot while I shopped at a store on JUST the other side of the freeway exit. It took me 10 minutes to DRIVE from one store to the other (which was the VERY NEXT store in line on the street). In the old-fashioned downtown business districts, you could walk from store to store in a minute.

I live in a house and I take up space and I breathe oxygen and I release CO2 (and I suppose methane once in a while), so I'm just as guilty as anyone else. I do think we'd be heading down a wiser path if we really tried harder to conserve land now, because land is going to get less and less plentiful as time goes on. It's not like old Kmart parking lots are being converted back to the wetlands, grasslands, or forestlands they used to be; unfortunately, the land-use-conversion process typically goes only one way. Recall that buffalo, whales, and old-growth timber were all plentiful at one time. Didn't we learn our lesson from wasting those?

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17580 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/5/2005 6:18 PM
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Another reason is the increasing width of residential streets and growing plat sizes. Think about the 50-, 80-, and 100-year-old neighborhoods in your town. Are the streets as wide as those currently being built? Are the yards as big? In my town, a standard city plat used to be 60X110; now average is 100X120, but moreover there are tons of nearby rural subdivisions with acre lots (regular houses...I'm not talking farms). Basically, a house on an acre lot is taking up the space that 6.6 houses used to take up, or the space that 3.7 houses on the smaller current lots take up. That doesn't include the extra land that is used by the streets through those subdivisions. The bigger the plats, the more street acreage you're going to have to get from one house to the next.


I owuld like to see some facts to back up the comments on plat size. Most areas are going from farmland to suburbia. That means going from a large plat to a smaller one.
I agree street width has grown, but we've also gone from using horses and carts to cars, buses and trucks.
And as Jeanwa stated, I see people a lot of hypocritical complaining in most areas concerning who cna do what on or with their land.
Kathleen


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Author: eastender Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17581 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/5/2005 6:49 PM
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maybe you live in a little mud hut or tent, and are trying to take your little corner back to "nature".

I have always respected your posts and found them most informative. The understanding you are seeking has to do with human nature, not with gardening or landscaping. I can't help you understand human beings. I don't understand people like the ones you describe either and like Mish have attempted to rescue and transplant native flora from construction sites nearby when allowed to. I don't begrudge my neighbors their homes.

The whole question of logging is another conversation. In fact all the wood on the tract I described was removed by a trash hauler. Many of the trees were very old and large, but it was more cost efficient to just discard them. The land was stripped in a matter of days.

Here is one project that WAS successful in my town. I was glad to be able to be a small part of that effort. I hope you take the time to read it.

http://www.njskylands.com/odswamp2.htm

The Great Swamp is available to everyone and there is an active Outdoor Education Center there. This is a wonderful thing in a place like New Jersey where blacktop is one of the favorite plantings.

I have spent years planting trees and restoring native plants to the small piece of land I live on. Perhaps living in an overdeveloped state like NJ would help you understand why I think that stripping ten acres of woodland is a horrible loss. There is no housing shortage here, there is just an opportunity for a developer to make a whole lot of money. When every free square foot of this state is paved and developed we will all be poorer in spirit if not in dollars. I used the term "tree hugger" facetiously. I had no idea it would start an argument.

Namste,
eastender (musing from my mud hut)





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Author: eastender Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17582 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/5/2005 6:53 PM
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OCD: Namaste--no spell checker on the Fool.

Namaste,
eastender

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Author: DrBob2 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17583 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/5/2005 7:15 PM
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Does anyone live on land that didn't use to be forest?

Everybody in Los Angeles? :-)

DB2
Actually, there is a lot of marginal farmland that is returning to forest.

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Author: zuzu70 Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17585 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/5/2005 10:45 PM
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I owuld like to see some facts to back up the comments on plat size. Most areas are going from farmland to suburbia. That means going from a large plat to a smaller one.

First, let me clarify: by plat sizes, I am referring to a residential plat size, not an agricultural plat size...maybe I should have used the term "lot size." If you are going to build 400 new houses and you want each of them to be on an acre lot, you have to chew up four 100-acre farms. If you build those same 400 new houses but each of them is on a 1/4 acre lot, you only need to chew up one 100-acre farm.

In reference to facts about plat sizes, my examples are observations in my area. I know it to be true in my area; I do not know what's happening in other parts of the country. Are you seeing residential lot sizes growing, getting smaller, or staying the same where you are?




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Author: mishedlo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17586 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/5/2005 11:32 PM
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He also chopped down about 7 white oak trees some as much as 4 feet in diameter.

Moron.


The house had to go somewhere and it was impossible not to lose some trees but he lost 4 of his biggest and best trees that might have been saved with different positioning. All told he lost about 7 oak trees and a few nice cherry trees. Different plans might have saved at least a few of them.

Mish

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Author: horacekgl Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17588 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/6/2005 7:46 AM
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The house had to go somewhere and it was impossible not to lose some trees but he lost 4 of his biggest and best trees that might have been saved with different positioning. All told he lost about 7 oak trees and a few nice cherry trees. Different plans might have saved at least a few of them.

Well you saw it and I didn't. I would only point out that he may NOT have had as much choice in positioning as you think. Many plats predetermine where the house/structure will be built. They are in my "subdivision"; each empty lot already had the house location predetermined at the time the plat was approved. But I suppose he could have gone to the local government and probably gotten the plat changed if a)he wanted to or b)he thought of it.

I am of the same dilemma (not so my wife). Caught between being a NIMBY and an independent thinker. I really hate it when they come in with the bulldozers to open the forest up for the building. But it is their land and you do have to have enough room for the house, driveway, some buffer zone, etc. It just seems to take more 'dozing than it should. My wife is always angry when it happens; never mind that the same thing happened for our house, albeit before she saw it. We moved to the country because we are country people; I keep telling her it is hypocritical to decry someone else wanting the same.

We have a brewing war between the "Save Rural Andover" crowd and the "Development is Good" crowd. While one side is hypocritical (I've got mine, go pound sand), the others are morons who think development for developments sake is good; that it'll lower our taxes. Yeah, that'll happen all right!

glh

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Author: riverlad Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17596 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/6/2005 10:32 AM
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OK, I'll confess -- I'm sort of a tree-hugger, or more accurately a river-hugger. I'm a card-carrying member of the Nature Conservancy, The Trustees of Reservations and a Trustee of the Eel River Watershed Association here in Plymouth, Mass., the fastest-growing town in the state. Our home sits on an acre of riverfront land, adjacent to a large (55 acre) tract recently purchased by the Watershed Assn. and near the Myles Standish State Forest.

No house has occupied this land since the Pilgrims and Wompanoags wandered it and fished the river. Since the house was built nearly twenty years ago, I've gradually cleared much of the land, including the felling of several oak and wild cherry trees. Otherwise, I've tried to maintain the plants that were here as much as possible, adding some of my own that would blend harmoniously with the natives.

In other words, I attempted to "blend in" with the environment and do nothing that would create a negative impact on it. Communities, in regulating their growth by wise zoning can do the same thing by striking a reasonable balance between orderly, considered growth and the conservation of our wildlands and wetlands.

As conservationists, we recognize that population growth is enevitable. Rather than throw ourselves in front of the bulldozers and march around with signs, we've taken the route of bringing the town and state to court over their plans for a new sewage treatment plant whose effluent might endanger the river and the aquifer that lies below. Law suits cost a lot more than placards, but they're also more effective.

We're also conducting meetings to educate the public about their responsibilities toward the environment and how they can help by conserving water and respecting natural habitat.

So, look for and support those organizations in your area that share your concerns. Getting upset about the guy next door or a local developer's a start, but everyone can make a difference by joining others who share their goals for a better community, one that includes an informed concern for the land.

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17598 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/6/2005 11:36 AM
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In reference to facts about plat sizes, my examples are observations in my area. I know it to be true in my area; I do not know what's happening in other parts of the country. Are you seeing residential lot sizes growing, getting smaller, or staying the same where you are?

I see them getting much smaller. The house we own has just under an acre and it's one of the smallest in the neighborhood, most are 2 acres. Hubby bought the house almost 30 years ago when almost everything around here was still farmland and it was REALLY considered a small lot size.

Most of the folks I know that have lived in the area less than 15 years are very envious of our lot size, even though it is comparitively small for the neighborhood. The houses I see going in all have lot sizes of a 1/4 acre and many times even smaller.

This is typical of most of the country (I did research this a few years ago, I'll try to dig up the links). Lot sizes in most of the country are getting smaller as much of the country is going from an agricultural society to a suburban society.

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17599 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/6/2005 11:47 AM
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The house had to go somewhere and it was impossible not to lose some trees but he lost 4 of his biggest and best trees that might have been saved with different positioning. All told he lost about 7 oak trees and a few nice cherry trees. Different plans might have saved at least a few of them.

In our area, it has become a status symbol to have extremely old trees on the land, so the builders have started to find ways of keeping the older trees. Keep in mind that like weeds, the trees you want are not always the trees someone else wants. We have some pines in the backyard that Hubby planted years ago. They are probably 20+ years old. They are beautiful, but they are an annoyance at this point as they block a lot of our yard. When he planted them, they were not so big and were not in the way of everything.
Kathleen

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17600 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/6/2005 11:54 AM
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We have a brewing war between the "Save Rural Andover" crowd and the "Development is Good" crowd. While one side is hypocritical (I've got mine, go pound sand), the others are morons who think development for developments sake is good; that it'll lower our taxes. Yeah, that'll happen all right!

We've had the same battle going here for a while now. One of the problems with the developments going is that our schools are seriously overcrowded. A few years ago, the system built a new middle school nearby. It was literally the second largest middle school in the country, the largest was in California. The day it opened, it had trailers on the land to use as classes as it was already overcrowded.
I do not mind them doing developement, but I would like to see the amount of apartments restricted, and the plat size restricted.
Thank fully, it has become a status symbol to have enough backyad to put trees in. The seems to be slowing them down.
Kathleen

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Author: eastender Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17603 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/6/2005 3:09 PM
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Hi riverlad,

If you love rivers you might love this article from the NYTimes.

"Anywhere else, it would be a wild river, just the right size for fishing, but this river looks too often like the derelict edge of human habitation. And yet things have changed for the river. It no longer looks like radiator fluid flowing past abandoned tires. It looks almost natural enough to harbor a population of trout."


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/06/opinion/06fri4.html?ex=1273032000&en=71bb026c89f59e19&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo&emc=rss

Enjoy,
eastender

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Author: mishedlo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17604 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/6/2005 4:32 PM
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Well you saw it and I didn't. I would only point out that he may NOT have had as much choice in positioning as you think. Many plats predetermine where the house/structure will be built. They are in my "subdivision"; each empty lot already had the house location predetermined at the time the plat was approved. But I suppose he could have gone to the local government and probably gotten the plat changed if a)he wanted to or b)he thought of it.

On a 1 acre lot you have lots of leeway.
All you have to do is honor the setbacks.
I went thru it and had to get an ordinance change to position our house where I wanted. He had a much wider lot that I have although we both have an acre. I saved about 7 trees with that change. repositioning his house could easily have saved 3-4 of the trees he lost without getting an ordinance change.

The thing I am mad at myself about is not taking more flowers before this started.

Mish

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Author: mishedlo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17605 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/6/2005 4:35 PM
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Getting upset about the guy next door or a local developer's a start, but everyone can make a difference by joining others who share their goals for a better community, one that includes an informed concern for the land.

I'm not upset at him.
I am upset at me for not saving more of the flowers on his lot.

Mish

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Author: riverlad Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 17609 of 31081
Subject: Re: Wildflowers Destroyed Date: 5/6/2005 5:16 PM
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Thanks for the trout link, Eastender -- certainly very encouraging, though I don't think I'd bet on the trout just yet. For so many years, it was generally assumed that the rivers were there as a convenient dump for just about anything that couldn't be buried, and that whatever you put in them would wash out to sea and be gone. We're now much wiser and sadder, but good things are happening to many polluted rivers and public awareness of the problem is resulting in significant changes.

Thanks again,
Dick

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