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Author: spl241 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 886575  
Subject: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 1:26 PM
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What's below is from WMT’s official compensation policy, an internal document obtained by The Huffington Post. It's wordily titled the "Field Non-Exempt Associate Pay Plan, Fiscal Year 2013." What we see is a rigid pay structure for hourlies that makes it hard-to-impossible to exceed poverty-level wages.

I'm printing the whole document and giving it to DB, who's been at WMT since -04. Based on his experiences and observations, I've written several prior posts. His pay crossed the $10/hr. level this year, but that's little comfort since his health insurance is getting a big premium boost in Jan. On Thanksgiving, he's working two 5 1/2 hr. shifts, 6:30-noon and 4:30-10. That's not random scheduling--oh, no. That's typical "WMT LBYM"--no meal break unless you work 6 straight hrs. in one shift. Other WMT lbym's he's encountered were being asked to give back his undamaged pay envelope for further use and the cancellation in 2009 of one of the most-anticipated $$ items: a lump-sum bonus of several hundred dollars per worker if the store did not exceed a certain number of employee accidents for a calendar year.

The document cited was written for company managers. How Huffington obtained it, I have no idea. Though addressed to Sam's Clubs, the new 2013 plan applies to actual WMT's too. I'm going to use (*'s) in fragmentary form for a few highlights for brevity.

* ...pay plan is organized around 7 levels of difficulty, called Position Pay Grades, ranging from cart crew (Level 1) and cashiers (Level 3), to cake decorators (Level 4) and customer service mgrs (Level 6). Each subsequent grade offers 20-40 cents more than the previous level....base rate of pay for a top hourly position at Walmart, like a check-out supervisor, is $1.70 more than the lowest paying job.

* ....in WMT terminology, a "solid performer" who starts as a cart pusher making $8/hr. and gets one possible annual promotion can expect to make $10.60 after working 6 years. (Ed. note: sounds good, but what about PRICES in 6 years' time? rent? insurance? child care? and for -013 specifically, besides the monstrous insurance premium escalation, what if political wrangling does take us "over the cliff" and workers' take-home pay is much less? Sobering)

*....Last year, about 180,000 hourly associates got promoted, according to the company’s site, or only 18% of Walmart’s 1 million U.S. hourly store associates. (lot of "UNsolid performers," huh?)

Finally, this woman's scary revelation:

A 40-year-old associate who has worked almost half her life now earns $19.53 an hour--a hefty wage for an hourly employee, but also the most she can ever hope for, given that she has already hit the company's cap. "After 19 years in retail, I guess what I make is OK. But if I stay with this company until I retire, I could be making the same wage for the next 25 years."

That calls for a spin on a well-known WMT ad: if she's right, she not only won't be "saving money," but she sure as hell probably won't be "living better" either.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/16/walmarts-internal-c...
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Author: wasmick Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868853 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 2:00 PM
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Thank god someone started another thread on this subject. The previous 63 post was neither long nor pointless enough.

Now that can all be remedied.

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Author: Ringfinger Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868854 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 2:07 PM
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That's pretty sad, I made like $6.50 and hour in 1991 working for Wegmans as a customer service desk employee/cart pusher/cashier. That was 21 years ago!! For crying out loud, that is a pathetic way to treat your employees!! (Wal-Mart, not Wegmans. Wegmans knows how to take care of their people and if you live in an area with one, consider that over Wal-Mart all day long!)

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Author: Lea77 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868855 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 2:07 PM
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Many people hate Walmart. I just don't understand what you guys think the pay should be for an hourly retail worker, or whether it's actually better at most other comparable companies. If it is, good people will go work there.

There is nothing odd, bad or revealing about this information. Walmart is a big company and has a very specific pay structure. I was expecting something more dramatic.

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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868856 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 2:20 PM
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Thank god someone started another thread on this subject. The previous 63 post was neither long nor pointless enough.

I'm looking forward to the third thread to complete the trilogy.

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Author: StubbleJumper Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868858 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 2:32 PM
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So, by now everybody knows that retail and fast food jobs suck. To me, the sad part of this whole story is not that WMT employees barely get a wage increase over 6 years, but rather they do not seem to have been able to find a better job anywhere else over the course of 6 years.

Like seriously, I can't think of any period of my life where I worked at any job for 6 years without improving my skills such that I qualified for a higher paying job.

Or we can just continue the diatribes about how retail and fast food employers are evil and are exploiting people....

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Author: mmrmnhrm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868863 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 3:15 PM
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but rather they do not seem to have been able to find a better job anywhere else over the course of 6 years.

I see two problems which stand in the way of getting a better job... First, in some towns, it seems as if WMT is *it*. There are no other jobs, period. The other problem seems to amount to scheduling. It seems as if WMT schedules people in a way that makes attempting to interview elsewhere a difficult proposition. Impossible? No. But when you're working two or three WMT equivalents just to keep your head above poverty level, you're pretty much stuck.

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868864 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 3:16 PM
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*....Last year, about 180,000 hourly associates got promoted, according to the company’s site, or only 18% of Walmart’s 1 million U.S. hourly store associates. (lot of "UNsolid performers," huh?)

Am I the only one that think holy cr@p, promoting 18% of your staff in one year is great?!

Most office jobs I've had, hardly anyone ever got a promotion - and people had to move on to move higher up in their careers.

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Author: LOTROQueen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868866 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 3:26 PM
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Many people hate Walmart. I just don't understand what you guys think the pay should be for an hourly retail worker, or whether it's actually better at most other comparable companies. If it is, good people will go work there.

It's not just the pay - it's also the way they treat employees. (Like scheduling someone for two shifts in one day that are each JUST short of being long enough to allow the employee to take a break). Maybe if they treated their employees as PEOPLE instead of easily replaceable parts it would be a better place to work.

Many people also don't like the way Wal-Mart treats suppliers.

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Author: StockGoddess Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868867 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 3:39 PM
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If Dante had been born in today's world, working at WMT might have been one of those circles of h*ll...

But what would it REALLY be like, you ask.

This guy wrote a SEVEN YEAR BLOG of his adventures as a WalMart employee. I found this years ago.

http://wallyworldlife.com/archives.html


"I'm debating with myself on whether my job is torture or entertainment. Over time I realized that my torture is entertainment to other people.."

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Author: wasmick Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868868 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 3:45 PM
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I'm looking forward to the third thread to complete the trilogy.


Well, here's hoping some other brainless HuffPo jagoff gets busy on this in a hurry.

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Author: LuckyDog2002 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868869 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 3:52 PM
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i guess you post this stuff spl because you have a bug about them selling ice cream and they are competition. Remember WalMart started out small too and became very successful.

To continually bash a store that has become successful, has hired lots of people unable to find a job elsewhere for that matter, given customers discounted prices on a lot of items and has stayed in business for a long time, has a stock listed on the NYSE and paid dividends and has increased value for shareholders(I am one of them), and has complied with all laws......well, I think it's ridiculous.

There are other similar stores out there in size and retail jobs have a lot of turnover but it hasn't become fashionable to bash them, such as Target, Whole Foods, and other trendy places to shop.

LuckyDog

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Author: wasmick Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868871 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 4:05 PM
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i guess you post this stuff spl because you have a bug about them selling ice cream and they are competition. Remember WalMart started out small too and became very successful.


I'm pretty sure that's not the reason.

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Author: StubbleJumper Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868872 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 4:10 PM
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I see two problems which stand in the way of getting a better job... First, in some towns, it seems as if WMT is *it*. There are no other jobs, period. The other problem seems to amount to scheduling. It seems as if WMT schedules people in a way that makes attempting to interview elsewhere a difficult proposition. Impossible? No. But when you're working two or three WMT equivalents just to keep your head above poverty level, you're pretty much stuck.


Yep, those are most definitely two problems. I guess the challenge for every WMT employee is to make a mature decision about how to deal with those two problems. One approach is to admit defeat and continue along the WMT career path with all of the inherent limitations that SPL has already outlined. Or another approach is to not admit defeat and instead find a solution.

I don't know about other board members, but given the choice of a career at WMT or moving to a centre with better employment prospects, I think I'd choose the option to move. In fact, come to think of it, that's exactly what I did do in real life - I moved away from a region with poor employment prospects to get a better job in another region.

Or, I guess the alternative is to blame it all on the evil corporation.

It sucks to be an adult and be forced to make adult choices.

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Author: wasmick Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868874 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 4:27 PM
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I don't know about other board members, but given the choice of a career at WMT or moving to a centre with better employment prospects, I think I'd choose the option to move. In fact, come to think of it, that's exactly what I did do in real life - I moved away from a region with poor employment prospects to get a better job in another region.


Why do you hate America so much?

That mindset is so 100 years ago. Move to where better employment prospects await?!? That's hilarious. As if towns could ever again be allowed to grow or die based on their actual relevance.

Wake the eff up. Now it is your right to demand that your government figure out how to take your specific skills and create some sort of income stream for you. Moving is hard; it's unfair to expect you to do so.

Get with it, square.

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Author: LOTROQueen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868877 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 4:44 PM
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i guess you post this stuff spl because you have a bug about them selling ice cream and they are competition

My guess would be because he doesn't like seeing his brother yanked around.

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Author: Windowseat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868878 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 5:13 PM
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I don't know about other board members, but given the choice of a career at WMT or moving to a centre with better employment prospects, I think I'd choose the option to move. In fact, come to think of it, that's exactly what I did do in real life - I moved away from a region with poor employment prospects to get a better job in another region.

Could you accept the idea that this is not something everyone can do? There are people with family obligations that require them to stay in Nowheresville, there are people who are having trouble gathering the funds to afford the move (because you can't move for free; usually you have to save up enough money for a place to stay while you job hunt, even if you find something the third day of your search) and there are some other situations that make moving impossible.

Having said that, yes, a lot of people have a defeatist attitude and don't know how to do something other than what they are doing now. I've got a whole flock of cousins who can't move beyond the town where they are in. My mother grew up there, and I always teased her that she married the first guy from out of town.

So yes, some people just won't push to do something bigger and better than what they have now.

Nancy

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868879 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 5:27 PM
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There are people with family obligations that require them to stay in Nowheresville

Than they're lucky there's even a Walmart for them to work at - seeing as how Walmart started in rural areas that other retailers didn't want to service.

Essentially what you're talking about is entitlement - that someone in the US is entitled to a job where ever they want to live - no matter how remote.

Try and keep in mind some of us are immigrants or the children of immigrants, so we do know what family members have had to do to move to find work - in a whole different country with language barriers, leaving behind everything that was familiar to them. Some of us born and raised in America know we're no better than our immigrant parent, and we might have to move in order to find work or build a decent life. And some feel entitled to that decent life simply by where they were born.

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Author: StubbleJumper Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868880 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 5:42 PM
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Could you accept the idea that this is not something everyone can do? There are people with family obligations that require them to stay in Nowheresville, there are people who are having trouble gathering the funds to afford the move (because you can't move for free; usually you have to save up enough money for a place to stay while you job hunt, even if you find something the third day of your search) and there are some other situations that make moving impossible.



Yep, it sucks to move away from family. And it sucks to live on a shoe-string at your eventual destination. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

But you know what? It's funny how some people take a decision and then MAKE it work. People move thousands of miles with only the clothes on their back and get themselves established in a new place. We can either blame others for our problems or we can take responsibility for our individual problems.

Some of the people I respect most are those who "cannot move" for family reasons and instead work in areas like long-haul trucking or in northern mining camps that enable them to make a decent living while not permanently moving from their community. But again, those folks look at the range of options available to them and selected what they deem to be the most attractive option amongst an unappealing lot.

Or, we could instead just blame the big corporations...

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Author: Windowseat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868881 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 5:52 PM
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Yep, it sucks to move away from family.

Actually, that's not what I meant. And I'm also not talking about Metro's "Gimmee" attitude.

I'm talking about kids just out of high school who stay in a dead-end town because a parent is helpless and crippled. Situations like that. Not a case of "I don't want to leave here because I'm scared of the world." This is a case of trapped. Stuck. Waiting for a parent to get well or get worse so that a nursing home is needed.

There are plenty of people who are stuck in bad situations. I suppose your response is going to be that the government should take care of the parent so the child can leave and go to the big city and get a better job.

Or perhaps that they should walk out the door and leave a parent to die.

Perfectly expectable responses from both of you.

Nancy

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868882 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 6:52 PM
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<<A 40-year-old associate who has worked almost half her life now earns $19.53 an hour--a hefty wage for an hourly employee, but also the most she can ever hope for, given that she has already hit the company's cap. "After 19 years in retail, I guess what I make is OK. But if I stay with this company until I retire, I could be making the same wage for the next 25 years." >>



The same kind of thing applies to most union contracts.


Yawn.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868884 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 7:01 PM
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I would suppose that it is actually a document stolen from Wal-Mart by the United Food aqnd Commercial Workers union and released to the Huffington Post in hopes of creating mischief.

The UFCW has been conducting a hate campaign against Wal-Mart for years, and liberal dupes just keep eating it up.

All kinds of other employers, union and non union have split shifts and such. Pointing with anger at Wal-Mart is just silly.

In Seattle school bus drivers are organized by the Teamsters and the public transit drivers are organized by an AFL-CIO union. Both have split shifts that employees are required to take when scheduled.

And if you want to see lousy terms of employment, take a look at mom 'n pop retail stores, which frequently offer lousy terms to them that will take them. Of course the owners frequently don't do much better.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868886 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 7:50 PM
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So, by now everybody knows that retail and fast food jobs suck. To me, the sad part of this whole story is not that WMT employees barely get a wage increase over 6 years, but rather they do not seem to have been able to find a better job anywhere else over the course of 6 years.

That's what I was thinking. If I'm qualified for some better paying job why wouldn't I go take it?

Like seriously, I can't think of any period of my life where I worked at any job for 6 years without improving my skills such that I qualified for a higher paying job.

Well, it does take some effort on the employee's part. Maybe it's just easier to go play lotto and wait for the big payout.

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868887 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 8:01 PM
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Thank you for recommending this post to our Best of feature.

There are people with family obligations that require them to stay in Nowheresville

Than they're lucky there's even a Walmart for them to work at - seeing as how Walmart started in rural areas that other retailers didn't want to service.

Essentially what you're talking about is entitlement - that someone in the US is entitled to a job where ever they want to live -


AND at wages well above their skill level, of course!

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868888 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 8:04 PM
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I'm talking about kids just out of high school who stay in a dead-end town because a parent is helpless and crippled. Situations like that.

Er... how many of these imaginary people work at Walmart?

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868889 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 8:40 PM
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I'm talking about kids just out of high school who stay in a dead-end town because a parent is helpless and crippled. Situations like that.

Not to different than what my mother and grandmother went through. You know what immigrants do - they send money back to their home country to help support the elderly parent who cannot work until the time they can get a green card or become a citizen and sponsor the elderly parent to immigrate to the US too.

And in your fantasy of this crippled, helpless parent - do you want to explain how they're not getting SSDI if they've been perm. disabled a year and are too helpless to care for themselves?

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Author: Windowseat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868895 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/19/2012 11:12 PM
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how many of these imaginary people work at Walmart?

Why do you look down your nose, all three of you, and sneer that this sort of event never takes place? That instead, everyone has the capacity to walk out of high school and walk directly into a great job in the nearest big city?

Some people do indeed end up trapped by parental demands. They take what jobs they can get and support their mother or father until years have passed. If you've never known anyone this has happened to, perhaps you should broaden your horizons a bit.

This happens in small towns and in large cities. Obviously kids in bigger towns have more resources available, and may be able to get better wages. But yes, it happens.

In order of posts and responses:

Stubblejumper said that if people in small towns wanted better jobs they should move away. I said not everyone had that opportunity. Metro started ranting about entitlement beliefs. Stubblejumper said that people who didn't move away were clearly too scared to move out on their own. I said that some had family problems, and you announced that they were imaginary.

It's wonderful that the three of you live in a perfect world. No one ever has family obligations, no one ever makes mistakes and is trapped by them. If they had a kid, they can walk out and let someone else deal with it. If their parent is sick, too bad. No one ever loves their parents or kids and wants to take care of them. But in the world I live in, people have responsibilities and live up to them. People care about the members of their family and take care of them.

I didn't jump on the Walmart condemnation bandwagon. I'm not demanding great wages for lousy work. Yes, Walmart often treats its employees badly, but so do a lot of other large retail operations. A lot of people use Walmart as a symbol of large retailers that move into small towns and drive other stores out of business. They aren't the only ones to do this, but it's easier to say Walmart rather than running down the whole list.

The only point I was trying to make is that not everyone can afford to leave a small town and move to a big city to look for a better paying job. (And let's face it: without better skills kids are going to get the same lousy wages in the city, and the cost of living will be much higher). And the three of you jumped down my throat, insisting that everyone can walk away from family obligations, that wanting high wages in a small town shows an entitlement attitude, (did I ask for high wages in a small town? No), and that any kid who tries to be a responsible family member is a figment of my imagination.

Sheesh.

Nancy

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868898 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 1:42 AM
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how many of these imaginary people work at Walmart?

And the three of you jumped down my throat, insisting that everyone can walk away from family obligations, that wanting high wages in a small town shows an entitlement attitude, (did I ask for high wages in a small town? No), and that any kid who tries to be a responsible family member is a figment of my imagination.


I can't speak for the others, but I get tired of made up people being used as examples to back up arguments.

Even if such a person existed the argument would be anecdotal.

It is my opinion that long term we are all where we want to be doing what we want to do.

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Author: PrimeSuspect Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868899 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 1:58 AM
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Thank god someone started another thread on this subject. The previous 63 post was neither long nor pointless enough.

I'm looking forward to the third thread to complete the trilogy.


Then Disney will buy the rights and beginning producing the prequels to the prequels.

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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868901 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 8:55 AM
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Then Disney will buy the rights and beginning producing the prequels to the prequels.

I hesitate to say this but I think Disney could make these threads more entertaining.

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Author: Lea77 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868902 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 8:57 AM
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Than they're lucky there's even a Walmart for them to work at - seeing as how Walmart started in rural areas that other retailers didn't want to service.

Damn straight. The thing is, you can't compare pay/benefits in a rural small town store with what you might get at a union shop in NYC. They aren't going to be the same, but guess what? The price of living isn't the same either.

Look I'm from Arkansas. Walmart IS our small town mom and pop store. They made it big and now everyone hates them. That's the price of success.

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Author: Lea77 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868904 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 9:03 AM
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Some people do indeed end up trapped by parental demands.

Sure they do. Some of them commute long distances to work, some of them work at one of the few places available in that small town and often that is walmart. I don't have a problem with anyone complaining about the place they work, everyone has headaches at work. Some are worse than others, retail sucks just in general. Been there, done that.

The problem I see is that people pick on Walmart because it caters to small towns, people on a budget, etc.. but they all love Trader Joes! YOu know what? Trader Joe's isn't providing jobs in teensy little towns for people with parent obligations. Walmart is.

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Author: Ringfinger Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868905 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 9:15 AM
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This thread is heating up, can't wait to see the third in the trilogy!

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Author: Brooklyn1948 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868907 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 10:32 AM
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Most office jobs I've had, hardly anyone ever got a promotion - and people had to move on to move higher up in their careers.

Exactly. My DH works 7-7 in financial services. Every year the CEO of the company gets a huge compensation package and every year my husband makes less money. He will be retiring in a few months, hopefully before he drops dead at his desk from being worked to death!

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Author: xtn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868908 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 10:44 AM
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First, in some towns, it seems as if WMT is *it*. There are no other jobs, period.

What? Look, if there is a small, remote town ... but it's big enough to support a Walmart ... then there are other jobs around too. I challenge you to find a community consisting solely of a rundown trailer park and a Walmart, wherein all the residents are the only customer base for that Walmart, and wherein all the capable ones are the only employees of that Walmart, and wherein the entire economy of the locale is just the same dollar bills being circulated from Walmart employee paycheck to Walmart sales receipts and back again, over and over into perpetuity. And even if that was the case ... tough. This country is founded on the right to seek happiness, not to have happiness legislated as a requirement.

The other problem seems to amount to scheduling. It seems as if WMT schedules people in a way that makes attempting to interview elsewhere a difficult proposition.

The example of a split shift posted earlier in this thread suggest plenty of interviewing time available. And putting that issue aside, it's no different than any employed job seeker having to find time for outside interviews.

xtn

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868909 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 10:45 AM
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Why do you look down your nose, all three of you, and sneer that this sort of event never takes place?

I didn't point out it never takes place. I pointed out many immigrants go through exactly the type of situation you're describing - not every immigrant who ever came to the US was an orphan or had 100% able-bodied parents. And many don't just leave parents they leave children behind too.

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Author: Brooklyn1948 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868910 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 10:45 AM
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But in the world I live in, people have responsibilities and live up to them. People care about the members of their family and take care of them


Nancy,
Your post was spot on. Everyone's experience is different. I happen to live in a big city. But even in a big city jobs are being lost by the tens of thousands. Large corporations are making their employees work ridiculously long hours with no extra compensation. When I tell people that DH works 7-7 they usually say, OH, I guess he's getting overtime. No such thing as overtime in his line of work. If you're not working twelve hours a day, you're not working! We will be leaving this big city in a few months for a small town in New England so that we can be closer to our children and grandchildren. We want and need to be close to family.
And people who live in small towns more often than not cannot afford to move away. We lived paycheck to paycheck for the first ten years of our marriage. We focused soley on putting a roof over our heads and food on the table. To make it in a big city one has to be really competitive. There was a time when only college grads from ivy league schools were even considered in some areas of the company that DH works for. Now in this bad economy they want to pay people much less money so no longer is it necessary to have graduated from one of the top schools. It's all about getting the most from people while paying them less and less and less. I do notice that the CEO gets more and more and more every year.

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868911 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 10:52 AM
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It is my opinion that long term we are all where we want to be doing what we want to do.

Or our lives are a product of bad decisions.

A few years ago MTV's "True Life" series did an episode called "I'm Broke" that covered the lives of a few young adults (18-25 range).

One girl and her boyfriend were struggling to rent an apartment and come up with first month's rent and security deposit. It turns out, she could've stayed at her mother's place, but her mother wouldn't let the boyfriend also move in. Well that wasn't acceptable to this couple, so instead of the girl living with her mother saving money while the boyfriend rented a room someplace else, they were struggling to afford a place together.

Another girl had a job at a local bar/restaurant where she made decent money with tips. But she got fired because at some point while speaking with the bar owner she went to get something out of her pocket and a joint fell out.

I think people making decisions like this is probably way more common in why people struggle to get ahead than the random person-caring-for-disabled-parent scenario.

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Author: Lea77 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868912 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 11:25 AM
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Look, if there is a small, remote town ... but it's big enough to support a Walmart ... then there are other jobs around too.

Not necessarily and probably not many.

Do you know how many people who live in rural towns drive 30-60 miles to get to work? Tons of them. Because that is where the jobs are. But they want to shop closer to home, hence Walmart.

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868913 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 12:06 PM
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I can't speak for the others, but I get tired of made up people being used as examples to back up arguments.

Even if such a person existed the argument would be anecdotal.

It is my opinion that long term we are all where we want to be doing what we want to do.


Of course that's what you think - if you acknowledged just how random reality is and how much of our life is determined by factors beyond our control, you would have to face up to just how cruel and pointless the kind of policies you advocate are.

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Author: Rael137 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868914 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 12:45 PM
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I think people making decisions like this is probably way more common in why people struggle to get ahead than the random person-caring-for-disabled-parent scenario.

I agree. There are a whole lot of scenarios that can really affect someone's current situation & future chances.

Some that I can think of:

1. young people who hit 18 and get kicked out of the house.
2. Getting pregnant young. In addition to the stress from that event, it may make more financial sense to stay living near (or with) family to help take care of kids.
3. Cultural expectations. e.g., stay living at home until you marry.
4. Getting married young - will affect flexibility to move to find jobs.
5. Family expectations that you stay living at home to help with child care.
6. Family expectations that once you finish HS you get married, buy a house & have kids right away.

There are a whole lot of conditions that are going into the compromise between being able to move to find job opportunities or staying where the pickings are slim. Some are what we'd consider "respectable" (like caring for a family member and some are not (like the pot habit).

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868915 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 12:59 PM
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There are a whole lot of conditions that are going into the compromise between being able to move to find job opportunities or staying where the pickings are slim.

But a lot of the conditions/expectations you list out are "American" viewpoints that maybe better jobs will come to the area. Where as immigrants who come to the US who are poor/lower economic class in the country they're coming from usually accept that there's little chance for opportunity/better life where they're leaving. And somehow it's accepable in the US to think poor people in other countries need to sacrifice to get to the US to build a better life, but poor in the US shouldn't have to.

And sure - some things in life are based on luck - you're lucky if you're already born in the US, or have good health, etc. But IMO a lot of life is how people deal with obstacles. People who get ahead aren't people who've never faced an obstacle - many have faced big obstacles but refused to give up - while there are some others who give up at the smallest obstacle.

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868916 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 3:35 PM
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Thank you for recommending this post to our Best of feature.

It is my opinion that long term we are all where we want to be doing what we want to do.

Or our lives are a product of bad decisions.


Good point!

Or our lives are a product of good decisions.

Desert (more likely it's a mix) Dave

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868917 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 4:01 PM
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Of course that's what you think - if you acknowledged just how random reality is and how much of our life is determined by factors beyond our control, you would have to face up to just how cruel and pointless the kind of policies you advocate are.

MetroChick gave good examples of what I'm saying. In one the guy & gal chose to struggle towards an apartment of their own.

In the other the girl chose to smoke pot and carry a dubbie in her pocket.

"Another girl had a job at a local bar/restaurant where she made decent money with tips. But she got fired because at some point while speaking with the bar owner she went to get something out of her pocket and a joint fell out."

Now look at it from the bar owner's point of view. In my state and many (most?) others having pot in position of the bar's employees is grounds for closing the bar down for a time & a fine paid by the bar owner. The bar is then put on the list of bars to be checked more often and more thoroughly If it happens two (I think) more times the bar's licence can be revoked.

The girl may have been a GREAT waitress, but the owner couldn't take the chance. Just another example of cruel and pointless policies I guess.

Reality may be random and our lives may be [at least in part] determined by factors beyond our control, but we are the ones making the choices. Take responsibility for your own actions!

It is still my opinion that long term we are all where we want to be doing what we want to do.

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Author: culcha Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868919 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 4:54 PM
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It is my opinion that long term we are all where we want to be doing what we want to do.

In your opinion, in the long term we are all successful in achieving what we want?

(BTW, how long is a term? I know a highly effective rain dance that, sooner or later, brings rain. It doesn't always bring rain right away or when you need it, but in the long term, you can bet your boots it'll bring rain.)

culcha

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868921 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 6:15 PM
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Nobody is forcing workers to take a job at Walmart. If they don't like the pay and benefits, then they should look for work elsewhere. Meanwhile stop the whining. And if people refuse to work to go and act like an idiot protesting, they should be fired. That's the way the world works. Don't like it? Tough! Go and get yourself an education and work hard to learn a trade or profession where your services are in demand. And if you can't cut it or can't perform up to the standards, you should be fired. No one owes you a living. There is no free stuff despite what 0bama and the democrats promise!

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868922 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 7:06 PM
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It is my opinion that long term we are all where we want to be doing what we want to do.

In your opinion, in the long term we are all successful in achieving what we want?

(BTW, how long is a term?


Long (Success is guaranteed to no man.;-)

We are all doing what we really want to do, despite what we say. Unless the dishwasher who says he wants to be a plumber is taking steps toward actually becoming a plumber he's where he really wants to be despite what he says.

I know a highly effective rain dance that, sooner or later, brings rain. It doesn't always bring rain right away or when you need it, but in the long term, you can bet your boots it'll bring rain.)

See, it works! ;-)

A goal is a dream with a deadline.
-- Napoleon Hill

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868924 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/20/2012 9:09 PM
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I'm looking forward to the third thread to complete the trilogy.
I hear it has orcs.

And explosions.

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Author: DHeavy Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Motley Fool One Everlasting Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868930 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/21/2012 6:26 AM
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WMT's strategy is pretty simple. They take over a town, confiscate all forms of transportation, remove frontal lobes, pay low wages so that not only are town-folk forced to work there, but they are also forced to shop there.

DHeavy

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868932 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/21/2012 9:02 AM
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You forgot that they make Stepford Wives out of all of the women.

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Author: xtn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868935 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/21/2012 11:59 AM
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Look, if there is a small, remote town ... but it's big enough to support a Walmart ... then there are other jobs around too.

Not necessarily and probably not many.

Do you know how many people who live in rural towns drive 30-60 miles to get to work? Tons of them. Because that is where the jobs are. But they want to shop closer to home, hence Walmart.


Soooooooo... before the Walmart came to support their shopping desires... there were NO jobs in the town? They ALL commuted? Think they would be thankful for the local jobs then, instead of whining about the Walmart wages.

xtn

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Author: llamalluv Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868946 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/21/2012 3:42 PM
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(Like scheduling someone for two shifts in one day that are each JUST short of being long enough to allow the employee to take a break).

That one just doesn't even make sense to me. In all my retail experience, lunch breaks are unpaid.

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Author: tconi Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868947 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/21/2012 3:45 PM
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I just don't understand what you guys think the pay should be for an hourly retail worker, or whether it's actually better at most other comparable companies. If it is, good people will go work there.


Bad people need jobs, too...


peace & quality employees
t

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Author: llamalluv Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868948 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/21/2012 3:46 PM
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Just about anything can be improved by a "spontaneous" choreographed musical interlude.

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Author: Lea77 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868950 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/21/2012 4:10 PM
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Bad people need jobs, too...

At 50k a year?

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868967 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/21/2012 8:17 PM
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A few decades ago in Washington State and Oregon, tens of thousand of people made family wage incomes and often good benefits working at logging and mill jobs in small rural towns.


Thanks to our environmentalist lords and masters, most of them were thrown out of work over the Spotted owl.

Of course many fled for the cities. Others pick salal and other green stuff they can sell that is used by florists, or pick mushrooms in forests in season.

I would suppose others are glad to have a job at Wal Mart.

I'd like to hear from any liberals, Democrats or environmentalists who want to apologize for that war on the working class.

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Author: Imabookworm Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868994 of 886575
Subject: Re: WMT Redux--Epitome of Shameful Date: 11/22/2012 11:05 PM
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All kinds of other employers, union and non union have split shifts and such. Pointing with anger at Wal-Mart is just silly.

Split shifts are nothing new. I worked for the telephone company back in the 1940's and they had split shifts. Sometimes it seemed as though you just about had time to get home, have a meal, and it was time to head back. Not many people had cars in those days so transportation was the public bus system.

Ima

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