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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 746061  
Subject: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/9/2006 12:36 PM
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http://epw.senate.gov/fact.cfm?party=rep&id=266711

Excerpts:

Washington D.C. - Senator James Inhofe (R-Okla.), the outgoing Chairman of Environment & Public Works Committee, is pleased to announce the public release of the Senate Committee published booklet entitled “A Skeptic's Guide to Debunking Global Warming Alarmism. Hot & Cold Media Spin Cycle: A Challenge To Journalists who Cover Global Warming.”


...“The American people are fed up with the media for promoting the idea that former Vice President Al Gore represents the scientific “consensus” that SUV's and the modern American way of life have somehow created a 'climate emergency' that only United Nations bureaucrats and wealthy Hollywood liberals can solve,” Senator Inhofe said in October.

Thanks to Shelbyboy:

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=24914435
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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321520 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/9/2006 12:45 PM
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that only United Nations bureaucrats and wealthy Hollywood liberals can solve

The UN bureaucrats and wealthy Hollywood liberals could lead the way by setting an example where they would avoid using limos, large luxury cars and SUVs.

Mike

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Author: ResNullius Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321521 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/9/2006 1:07 PM
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The UN bureaucrats and wealthy Hollywood liberals could lead the way by setting an example where they would avoid using limos, large luxury cars and SUVs.

They also could help by putting corks in all the right places so they don't spew so much simmering BS, what with the release of methane gas and such.


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Author: NewEchota Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321536 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/9/2006 10:01 PM
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Senator James Inhofe (R-Okla.), the outgoing Chairman of Environment & Public Works Committee...

... has himself been debunked by Real Climate, a commentary site on climate science by working climate scientists.

Inhofe relies upon novelist Michael Crichton to support his contention that "We are also in the midst of a natural warming trend that began about 1850, as we emerged from a 400 year cold spell known as the Little Ice Age."

Scientific studies come to the opposite result. All published scientific investigations of the causes of 20th century warming have consistently found that natural factors alone cannot explain the warming.

Inhofe then attempts to criticize the "Hockey Stick" reconstruction by citing a modeling study by the German GKSS group that actually supports the "Hockey Stick" conclusion that late 20th century warmth is anomalous in the context of the past 1000 years as well as the conclusion that this warmth can only be attributed to anthropogenic influences.


So he accuses the media of being alarmist and climate scientists accuse Inhofe of being wrong on the facts.

Who to believe?

Much more here: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=97




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Author: PK227 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321545 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/10/2006 12:02 AM
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There was an article in the Wall Street Journal the other day....and I wish I had posted it....that said that 2 Senators (democrats, of course....Rockefeller was one...forget the other...but is was a woman)sent a letter to Exxon Mobil basically threatening them if they didn't stop financially supporting scientists that don't support global warming.

Follow the money.....as usual. The global warming supporters have to keep ringing the bell of doom to continue to get funding and feed their families. The fact that Senators would even think of sending such a letter to an American Company is beyond inappropriate. I would say shocking, but nothing coming out of Washington shocks me any more.

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Author: tlswms One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321547 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/10/2006 1:45 AM
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I personally believe that global warming is real. The common sense of it rings true to me. With the undeniable economic incentives that are out there to spin the data, that's really what one is left with – what makes sense intuitively.

Setting aside who is right on global warming for a minute. Consider the debate's broader potential impact.

I think most can agree that U.S. dependence on oil is not in our long-term interests. It's gonna run out over the next few hundred years or so by anyone's calculation. So, if one's interested in the out-years of this country's destiny shouldn't they be on the same side as the global warmer doomsayers—because their doomsday predictions drive action that will get us closer to energy independence. The argument may be fuzzy – but its simplicity rings true.

We're childless by choice and approaching a fairly comfortable retirement. So, on days when I'm thinking only of myself and mine, I'm ambivalent about the issue. In the final $ and cents analysis it is in personal economic interest to have gas for my gas guzzling toys at a reasonable cost. What's really baffling to me is how folks with kids/grandkids etc. who will have to face the future can be so against change in this arena. The pain of it will be much less if gradually undertaken….yes, technology has gotten us this far on an amazing ride - but, for my money it's not gonna be able to solve the oil gluttony problem – call me Malthus, but while the numbers can be added up to tell any story – gut instincts make me really wonder about our behavior…like they say though – in the long run, we're dead – what about those that come after though… - tom


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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321563 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/10/2006 8:44 AM
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What's really baffling to me is how folks with kids/grandkids etc. who will have to face the future can be so against change in this arena. The pain of it will be much less if gradually undertaken….yes, technology has gotten us this far on an amazing ride - but, for my money it's not gonna be able to solve the oil gluttony problem – call me Malthus, but while the numbers can be added up to tell any story – gut instincts make me really wonder about our behavior…like they say though – in the long run, we're dead – what about those that come after though… - tom

Want to be un-baffled? Take a few Economics classes and study the power of the economic law called supply and demand. It is unstoppable and cannot be denied, it can and does solve a plethra of problems from saving threatened animals species to provide abundent product choices at low prices. There is a huge demand for energy or fuel and where there is a huge demand, capitalists will find a way to provide that energy or fuel in order to make a profit. Whether or not this is in the form of gasoline or not makes no difference to me, as long as I can drive my old muscle cars when I want to, I don't care where the fuel comes from.

ES



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Author: MrCheeryO Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321564 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/10/2006 9:08 AM
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...I think most can agree that U.S. dependence on oil is not in our long-term interests. It's gonna run out over the next few hundred years or so by anyone's calculation....

And even if not that, or if you are skeptical of the scientific claims of certainty as I am, sadly continue to have to keep sucking up to these folks, and telling great whopper lies like this:

Joint Statement by President Bush and Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah
...The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia recognizes the principle of freedom upon which the United States was founded, including the freedoms enshrined under the first amendment of the United States Constitution.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/04/images/20050425-8_hw9v0295jasjpg-1-515h.html

Now that's shocking! Lives and treasure lost securing their/ our petroleum supplies. When did our Saudi friends begin to recognize religious freedom? Mr. Bush? :) This, in contrast, not shocking at all. Reminds one completely of the decades of denial by the tobacco industry.

That evidence no doubt pooh-poohed by the Early Retiree scientific community as well.

The 'Obfuscation Agenda'
The letter to ExxonMobil.

BY JOHN D. ROCKEFELLER IV AND OLYMPIA SNOWE
Monday, December 4, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST
Editor's note: This is the text of a letter Sens. Rockefeller (D., W.Va.) and Snowe (R., Maine) sent to ExxonMobil's CEO. A related editorial appears here
http://opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009337

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321567 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/10/2006 9:13 AM
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Follow the money.....as usual. The global warming supporters have to keep ringing the bell of doom to continue to get funding and feed their families. The fact that Senators would even think of sending such a letter to an American Company is beyond inappropriate. I would say shocking, but nothing coming out of Washington shocks me any more.

Unbelieveable.

ES


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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321587 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/10/2006 12:13 PM
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Sneakpuff: "Want to be un-baffled? Take a few Economics classes and study the power of the economic law called supply and demand. It is unstoppable and cannot be denied, it can and does solve a plethra of problems from saving threatened animals species to provide abundent product choices at low prices."

Would that you remember that whenever the War on Drugs is discussed.

The law of supply and dedmand also does not deal with the "commons" issue or external costs, in general.

Regards, JAFO


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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321595 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/10/2006 1:05 PM
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Would that you remember that whenever the War on Drugs is discussed.

Don't know of a time I forgot it.

The law of supply and dedmand also does not deal with the "commons" issue or external costs, in general.

I disagree, where do you get this idea from?

ES


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Author: patchdodd Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321664 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/11/2006 12:43 PM
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supply and demand. It ... solve[s] a plethra of problems from saving threatened animals,

No it doesn't, and no it can't. If it did then we would have no animals driven to extinction. There are all kinds of things that free markets do not solve.

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321678 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/11/2006 3:20 PM
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No it doesn't, and no it can't. If it did then we would have no animals driven to extinction. There are all kinds of things that free markets do not solve.

Oh really, I guess you must not have heard about the herds of Elephant, Rhino and other African animals that are making a quick recovery from the endangered list because of sport hunting? Before hunting was allowed, the poachers almost wiped them out, but since hunting the animals was leagalized, the people involved put a stop to the poaching and started managing the animal herds. The herds are growing, people are making a living and the hunters are hunting.

Economics 101 son, a class you must have missed.

ES


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Author: patchdodd Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321687 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/11/2006 3:56 PM
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Economics 101 son, a class you must have missed.

No, I didn't miss it but apparently you missed Decency and Common Sense 101.


The herds are growing, people are making a living and the hunters are hunting.


No they aren't, and no they aren't, and maybe they are.

The elephant and rhino populations are not making a 'quick recovery', they are merely not declining any more. And not because of free market magic but rather because of intense - and expensive - anti-poaching enforcement. There is no living being made and the populations have only recovered from a bottom of 20 years ago. There are hardly teeming herds roaming the serengeti now and certainly not because of hunting.

Furthermore, I only used animal extinction as an example of where supply and demand fails. Perhaps since there is a demand for big game to hunt a few species will never be wiped out completely but that really isn't what I was talking about. Species are driven to extinction because they aren't in demand and their habitats are destroyed in the pursuit of resources to exploit. This isn't necessarily to make a value judgment, just to say what is. For you to deny it would be ludicrous.

There are many examples where free markets fail to protect all interests and I'm not going to dig in to them now. If you want to be an zealot for the Church of Libertarianism go ahead an knock yourself out, just don't expect your proselytizing to win many adherents.

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321707 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/11/2006 5:12 PM
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Sneakpuff:

<<<<The law of supply and dedmand also does not deal with the "commons" issue or external costs, in general.>>>>

"I disagree, where do you get this idea from?"

From the economists with whom I studied when I earned my degree.

But why do you think otherwise?

"EXTERNAL COST: A cost that's not included in the market price of a good because it's not included in the supply price. Pollution is an example of an external cost if producers aren't the ones who suffer from pollution damages. External cost is one type of market failure that causes inefficiency."

http://www.amosweb.com/cgi-bin/awb_nav.pl?s=gls&c=dsp&k=external+cost

"EXTERNALITIES: Costs or benefits that are not included in the market price of a good because they are not included in the supply price or the demand price. Pollution is an example of an externality cost if producers aren't the ones who suffer from pollution damages. Education is an example of an externality benefit when members of society other than students benefit from a more educated population. Externality is one type of market failure that causes inefficiency."

http://www.amosweb.com/cgi-bin/awb_nav.pl?s=gls&c=dsp&k=externalities

"MARKET FAILURE: A condition in which a market does not efficiently allocate resources to achieve the greatest possible consumer satisfaction. The four main market failures are--(1) public good, (2) market control, (3) externality, and (4) imperfect information. In each case, a market acting without any government imposed direction, does not direct an efficient amount of our resources into the production, distribution, or consumption of the good."

http://www.amosweb.com/cgi-bin/awb_nav.pl?s=gls&c=dsp&k=market+failure

"The principle author and content developer of AmosWEB is Orley M. Amos, PhD, a Professor of Economics at Oklahoma State University with a couple of decades of instructional experience. Assistance has been provided over the years by Antonio Avalos, PhD, an Assistant Professor of Economics at California State University, Fresno."

For Tragedy of the Commons, see:

http://dieoff.org/page95.htm

"The social arrangements that produce responsibility are arrangements that create coercion, of some sort.

. . .

But we accept compulsory taxes because we recognize that voluntary taxes would favor the conscienceless. We institute and (grumblingly) support taxes and other coercive devices to escape the horror of the commons."

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/TragedyoftheCommons.html

"Even when herdsmen understand the long-run consequences of their actions, they generally are powerless to prevent such damage without some coercive means of controlling the actions of each individual."

Id. IOW, no market solution, unless one changes the commons.

An unfettered free market cannot solve all problems. Standard Economics, but maybe beyond the Econ. 101 class you like to keep citing.

http://www.garretthardinsociety.org/articles/art_tragedy_of_the_commons.html

"It is our considered professional judgment that this dilemma has no technical solution." citing J. B. Wiesner and H. F. York, Sci. Amer. 211 (No. 4). 27 (1964).

You can believe whatever you want, but do not expect me (1) to accept your beliefs, (2) to not point out flaws and errors, or (3) not lobby against public policy that attempts to implement such beliefs.

JAFO





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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321721 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/11/2006 8:55 PM
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JAFO

<<<<The law of supply and dedmand also does not deal with the "commons" issue or external costs, in general.>>>>

"I disagree, where do you get this idea from?"

From the economists with whom I studied when I earned my degree.

But why do you think otherwise?


History. Since this discussion is about how supply and demand will provide the oil or it's substitute for oil, please stick to that topic.

"EXTERNAL COST: A cost that's not included in the market price of a good because it's not included in the supply price. Pollution is an example of an external cost if producers aren't the ones who suffer from pollution damages. External cost is one type of market failure that causes inefficiency.

http://www.amosweb.com/cgi-bin/awb_nav.pl?s=gls&c=dsp&k=external+cost

"EXTERNALITIES: Costs or benefits that are not included in the market price of a good because they are not included in the supply price or the demand price. Pollution is an example of an externality cost if producers aren't the ones who suffer from pollution damages. Education is an example of an externality benefit when members of society other than students benefit from a more educated population. Externality is one type of market failure that causes inefficiency."

http://www.amosweb.com/cgi-bin/awb_nav.pl?s=gls&c=dsp&k=externalities

"MARKET FAILURE: A condition in which a market does not efficiently allocate resources to achieve the greatest possible consumer satisfaction. The four main market failures are--(1) public good, (2) market control, (3) externality, and (4) imperfect information. In each case, a market acting without any government imposed direction, does not direct an efficient amount of our resources into the production, distribution, or consumption of the good."

http://www.amosweb.com/cgi-bin/awb_nav.pl?s=gls&c=dsp&k=market+failure

"The principle author and content developer of AmosWEB is Orley M. Amos, PhD, a Professor of Economics at Oklahoma State University with a couple of decades of instructional experience. Assistance has been provided over the years by Antonio Avalos, PhD, an Assistant Professor of Economics at California State University, Fresno."

For Tragedy of the Commons, see:

http://dieoff.org/page95.htm

"The social arrangements that produce responsibility are arrangements that create coercion, of some sort.

. . .

But we accept compulsory taxes because we recognize that voluntary taxes would favor the conscienceless. We institute and (grumblingly) support taxes and other coercive devices to escape the horror of the commons."

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/TragedyoftheCommons.html

"Even when herdsmen understand the long-run consequences of their actions, they generally are powerless to prevent such damage without some coercive means of controlling the actions of each individual."

Id. IOW, no market solution, unless one changes the commons.

An unfettered free market cannot solve all problems. Standard Economics, but maybe beyond the Econ. 101 class you like to keep citing.

http://www.garretthardinsociety.org/articles/art_tragedy_of_the_commons.html

"It is our considered professional judgment that this dilemma has no technical solution." citing J. B. Wiesner and H. F. York, Sci. Amer. 211 (No. 4). 27 (1964).



Perhaps true but not relevant to the topic.


You can believe whatever you want, but do not expect me (1) to accept your beliefs, (2) to not point out flaws and errors, or (3) not lobby against public policy that attempts to implement such beliefs.

Yes and you can also believe as you wish I don't expect you to do or believe anything. You have not pointed out any flaw or error it what I said, you changed the subject. I simply content that the free market will provide energy in order to make a profit. All you have shown is that the cost of energy is more than the price we pay at the pump. A point I grant you and have never objected to.

Pull your head out of the books and try a little common sense, your degree is nothing more than a piece of paper you can brag about.

ES



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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321728 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/12/2006 12:13 AM
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Sneakpuff: "You have not pointed out any flaw or error it what I said, you changed the subject. I simply content that the free market will provide energy in order to make a profit. All you have shown is that the cost of energy is more than the price we pay at the pump. A point I grant you and have never objected to."

You are the one backtracking and trying to narrow the subject.

The post wo which I responded including this statement from you:

"Take a few Economics classes and study the power of the economic law called supply and demand. It is unstoppable and cannot be denied, it can and does solve a plethra of problems from saving threatened animals species to provide abundent product choices at low prices."

You were not limiting the discussion to energy supplies. You were writing with a much, much broader brush. When I pointed out that the law of supply and demand is not the panacea you claimed it to be, you accuse me of changing the subject.

Nice try, but no sale.

JAFO



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Author: patchdodd Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321761 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/12/2006 11:04 AM
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Yes and you can also believe as you wish I don't expect you to do or believe anything. You have not pointed out any flaw or error it what I said, you changed the subject. I simply content that the free market will provide energy in order to make a profit. All you have shown is that the cost of energy is more than the price we pay at the pump. A point I grant you and have never objected to.


There's a huge error in your argument. Externalities aside, all that free markets do is provide motivation, they do not provide solutions when they aren't coming. There is a huge demand for immortality but despite the free markets working on it for the last 4000 years we have barely made progress. To assume that abundant alternative energy will be available as soon as oil becomes too expensive for practical use is downright pollyannaish.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321763 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/12/2006 11:19 AM
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<<To assume that abundant alternative energy will be available as soon as oil becomes too expensive for practical use is downright pollyannaish. >>


The solution of lefties is to make energy expensive now, no matter how cheap it might be. And prefereably to siphone off as much of that money as they can to fund their own bright ideas.


No thanks.


A third of a century ago the environmentalists of the day were making exactly the same apocalyptic predictions of energy shortage and disaster. They never happened. Instead, we had three decades of cheap energy prices, to the enormous benefit of human beings. That would never have happened had enviros had their way. Instead people would have been paying enormously high taxes to discourage the use of cheap energy.



Seattle Pioneer








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Author: patchdodd Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321770 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/12/2006 12:07 PM
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Instead people would have been paying enormously high taxes to discourage the use of cheap energy.

Do you have any idea how much we subsidize oil companies every year?

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321773 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/12/2006 12:22 PM
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<<Instead people would have been paying enormously high taxes to discourage the use of cheap energy.

Do you have any idea how much we subsidize oil companies every year? >>


Oil companies pay taxes.



If you are suggesting that the United States should not have developed the system of free trade upon which the prosperity of the world depends, and protected that system of free trade with our military power, say so plainly.

That system was built by Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman, among others, including Republicans. Do you wish to abandon it now and let the devil take the hindmost?

Abandonning that system would be the surest way to a world economic collapse and world war I can think of.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: patchdodd Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321777 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/12/2006 1:39 PM
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If you are suggesting that the United States should not have developed the system of free trade upon which the prosperity of the world depends, and protected that system of free trade with our military power, say so plainly.


No, I'm suggesting that your so-called cheap energy isn't as cheap as you think. That is what I was responding to, you know. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm already speaking plainly.

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Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/12/2006 5:12 PM
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<<If you are suggesting that the United States should not have developed the system of free trade upon which the prosperity of the world depends, and protected that system of free trade with our military power, say so plainly.


No, I'm suggesting that your so-called cheap energy isn't as cheap as you think. That is what I was responding to, you know. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm already speaking plainly.>>


Sorry then, I don't know what you mean by that comment. Energy is as cheap or expensive as the posted price, unless you want to clarify what your unclear comment refers to.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: patchdodd Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321811 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/12/2006 5:30 PM
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unless you want to clarify what your unclear comment refers to.

Perhaps you should have read my initial post then instead of jerking your knee and picking on a straw man.

Energy is not as cheap as the posted price due to the huge subsidies that you and I pay to underwrite the oil companies.

Of course your initial assumption that I am inclined to tax us in to poverty is incorrect as well. My point was that it is hopelessly optimistic to expect cheap abundant energy to magically be available when oil dries up. You seemed to take that as an attack on baseball, hot dogs and the American Way.

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321831 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/12/2006 8:33 PM
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ES
Economics 101 son, a class you must have missed.

patchdodd
No, I didn't miss it but apparently you missed Decency and Common Sense 101.


The herds are growing, people are making a living and the hunters are hunting.


No they aren't, and no they aren't, and maybe they are.

Brilliant come back patchdodd, can't wait to hear your take on this:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/11/1105_041105_elephants.html

This is just one example of what is going on with African wildlife herds, thanks in large part to leagalizing of hunting and safaris.

ES

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321832 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/12/2006 8:44 PM
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JAFO
You are the one backtracking and trying to narrow the subject.

The post wo which I responded including this statement from you:


ES
"Take a few Economics classes and study the power of the economic law called supply and demand. It is unstoppable and cannot be denied, it can and does solve a plethra of problems from saving threatened animals species to provide abundent product choices at low prices."

You were not limiting the discussion to energy supplies. You were writing with a much, much broader brush. When I pointed out that the law of supply and demand is not the panacea you claimed it to be, you accuse me of changing the subject.

No, you took part of my paragraph out of context and tried to make your straw man real. Here is the whole paragraph and anyone that wants to read it can see that I was using analogies to illustrate a point. Here is the post:

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=24916446

Here is the whole paragraph:

Want to be un-baffled? Take a few Economics classes and study the power of the economic law called supply and demand. It is unstoppable and cannot be denied, it can and does solve a plethra of problems from saving threatened animals species to provide abundent product choices at low prices. There is a huge demand for energy or fuel and where there is a huge demand, capitalists will find a way to provide that energy or fuel in order to make a profit. Whether or not this is in the form of gasoline or not makes no difference to me, as long as I can drive my old muscle cars when I want to, I don't care where the fuel comes from.

Come on JAFO, you can do better than this.

ES


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Author: patchdodd Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321842 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/12/2006 11:06 PM
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Brilliant come back patchdodd, can't wait to hear your take on this:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/11/1105_041105_elephants.html


Thank you for acknowledging my brilliance. It is long overdue.

The African Elephant was wiped out of most of the continent between 1980 and 2000 and the population delined from an already paltry 1.3 million to about 300,000 where it has stabilized. While it is true that many parks have seen elephant populations rebound, they are rebounding only to the limits of the ecosystem. The parks are too small to do more than support a small growth in the populations. As you can see from the article you linked, this is a problem.

Actually the article generally proves my point which you keep trying to sidestep. Free markets only protect resources when they are exploitable. The African elephants are rebounding because they are being protected, the commercial benefits are helping to offset and justify the efforts. But as you can see from that article, efforts to protect the elephant have all but wiped out the black rhino populations, which has not been as effectively protected. This is exactly what happens in unregulated markets, external costs are disregarded as they don't impact the transaction.

It might surprise you to learn that economic theory does not stop at Supply and Demand.

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321844 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/12/2006 11:12 PM
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Free markets only protect resources when they are exploitable.

That is my point, any time money can be made, it will be made. That is casic supply and demand.

The African elephants are rebounding because they are being protected, the commercial benefits are helping to offset and justify the efforts.

Helping! If not for the commercial benefits there would be no park, there would be no elephants.

But as you can see from that article, efforts to protect the elephant have all but wiped out the black rhino populations, which has not been as effectively protected. This is exactly what happens in unregulated markets, external costs are disregarded as they don't impact the transaction.

It might surprise you to learn that economic theory does not stop at Supply and Demand.


I never said that supply and demand would cure all ills and solve all problems. I said it would supply energy or fuel, because there is demand for energy and fuel and there is money to be made supplying it.

ES


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Author: patchdodd Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321847 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/12/2006 11:37 PM
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I said it would supply energy or fuel, because there is demand for energy and fuel and there is money to be made supplying it.


And I said that it is pollyanaish to expect cheap abundant energy sources just because there is demand. There is demand for all kinds of things that are neither cheap nor abundant.

And then you made some weird claim that supply and demand is saving all of the worlds species or something and now you say no it is only preventing the extinction of a few. Well fine, I can hardly disagree. Supply and demand is also preventing the extinction of cows and sheep and chickens and pigs. Praise be to the free market.

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321848 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/12/2006 11:43 PM
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Praise be to the free market.

Amen and amen brudder! Glad to see you finally woke up.

ES


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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321850 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/12/2006 11:53 PM
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There is demand for all kinds of things that are neither cheap nor abundant. - patchdodd

Lobsters and abalone. When the Japanese started buying up all the World's seafood the price of lobsters skyrocketed. Now I rarely get to eat real Maine Lobster. I wonder if there'll be lobster in Heaven?

Art

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Author: patchdodd Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321851 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/13/2006 12:03 AM
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I wonder if there'll be lobster in Heaven?


Yes, but unfortunately Heaven is a place where lobsters get to boil us live and then crack open our bones and suck out the marrow.

Oh wait, I think I'm confusing Heaven with Newark.

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Author: TheBreeze Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321862 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/13/2006 6:58 AM
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“The American people are fed up with the media for promoting the idea that former Vice President Al Gore represents the scientific “consensus” that SUV's and the modern American way of life have somehow created a 'climate emergency' that only United Nations bureaucrats and wealthy Hollywood liberals can solve,”

Did you ever notice that when there's a big international confab on the environment or global warming, that all the visiting dignitaries arrive separately in limos? Their entourages usually come in different vehicles...I guess each dignitary needs to stretch out or doesn't want to share an arm rest.

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321967 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/13/2006 11:57 PM
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Did you ever notice that when there's a big international confab on the environment or global warming, that all the visiting dignitaries arrive separately in limos? Their entourages usually come in different vehicles...I guess each dignitary needs to stretch out or doesn't want to share an arm rest.

That Limo is just the ride from the airport where they just flew in on a private jet.

ES


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Author: tlswms One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 322135 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/16/2006 9:36 AM
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On the animals -- the devastation that's taken place where the market rules and there is no enforcement of anti-paoching (Congo and Zimbabwe to name just a couple spots) is horrific. The big-game sport hunting industry is pathtic and sadistic -- prizes for killing the most species and masquerading as conservationists -- safari club international and their ilk - a victory for the free market... - it's just depressing to think an argument like this gets traction with people.

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Author: Sebb Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 322320 of 746061
Subject: Re: Wow, Global Warming Debunked! Date: 12/19/2006 12:36 PM
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I wonder if he even drew breath between these attacks:

Economics 101 son, a class you must have missed.
....
Pull your head out of the books and try a little common sense, your degree is nothing more than a piece of paper you can brag about.


?

Sebb

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