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Author: krygeris Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1656  
Subject: WTO Date: 11/19/1999 10:07 PM
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Does anybody have links to middle-of-the-road, or at least calm, information on the WTO. I'm an hour and a half drive from Seattle and would like to get myself informed before all hell break loose down there (possibly with me among the rabble).

Thanks.

Allan
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Author: hansf Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1489 of 1656
Subject: Re: WTO Date: 12/3/1999 3:32 PM
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Better late than never - here's some links to WTO info that is not well presented by the mainstream media.

www.seattlewto.org

Public Citizen has WTO and other global trade info
www.citizen.org/pctrade/tradehome.html

and a good WTO pdf doc for download
www.citizen.org/pctrade/gattwto/wto-book.pdf

Be forewarned - it's not a pretty picture

I went to the protest on Tuesday, nonviolent for me.
I'll post about it soon

Hans

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Author: krygeris Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1491 of 1656
Subject: Re: WTO Date: 12/7/1999 3:44 AM
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Thanks again, Hans. These links look great.

As it turned out, I couldn't make it down to the city for the festivities. Glad to hear you made it and got out of there safely.

Allan



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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1492 of 1656
Subject: Re: WTO Date: 12/7/1999 8:34 AM
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I understand that you were not involved in the rioting but I'm curious. All these wonderful students et al that you rallied with--how do they justify destroying personal property?

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Author: hansf Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1494 of 1656
Subject: Re: WTO Date: 12/8/1999 10:14 PM
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I understand that you were not involved in the rioting but I'm curious. All these wonderful students et al that you rallied with--how do they justify destroying
personal property?


Their argument is that the damage done by transnational corporations to people and the environment is so great that destruction of a relatively miniscule amount of property is justified since it brings public attention to the problems of globalization. They also say that this is their only way to access the corporate controlled media.

Note that the main targets of the damage were transnational corps - Starbucks, Nordstrom, McDonalds, GAP

Hans

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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1495 of 1656
Subject: Re: WTO Date: 12/9/1999 8:52 AM
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<<Note that the main targets of the damage were transnational corps - Starbucks, Nordstrom, McDonalds, GAP>>

I doubt that that is very consoling to the LOCAL owners of those franchises!

It gets attention alright--people think they're a bunch of crazy punks.

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Author: hansf Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1501 of 1656
Subject: Re: WTO Date: 12/11/1999 2:12 PM
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<<Note that the main targets of the damage were transnational corps - Starbucks, Nordstrom, McDonalds, GAP>>

I doubt that that is very consoling to the LOCAL owners of those franchises!

It gets attention alright--people think they're a bunch of crazy punks.


Hi Frecs,
The local owners of these franchises were justifiably very upset. Starbucks CEO Howard Shultz said he felt like his family had been attacked. That got me thinking again about a parallel on the other side....

Think about people living in a two thirds world country. How do they feel when transnational corporations arrive uninvited and ravage the countryside where the people live and get their sustenance, leaving a permanent scar of destruction and ruined lives? Think of the hostility they must feel towards the "developed" nations.

Yes, several hundred business owners were severely inconvenienced in Seattle. Some may go out of business. But what about the millions and billions of people who have their lives devastated by the transnational corporations who provide for our consumption.

I just can't help but feel much more sorry for the "bad guys" side. I think people who spend a lot of energy getting mad at the Anarchists and other property destroyers are missing the big picture.

Hans

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Author: stephan1000 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1502 of 1656
Subject: Re: WTO Date: 12/13/1999 3:12 AM
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Hans wrote:

...Yes, several hundred business owners were severely inconvenienced in Seattle. Some may go out of business. But what about the millions and billions of people who have their lives devastated by the transnational corporations who provide for our consumption.

I just can't help but feel much more sorry for the "bad guys" side. I think people who spend a lot of energy getting mad at the Anarchists and other property destroyers are missing the big picture.

Hans


Hans,

Except for placing a giant lazer on the moon, what did Starbucks do that was so evil? From what I understand, Starbucks employees are much better off in terms of pay and benefits than most other coffee shop employees.
I may be wrong, but aren't the property destroyers the one missing the big picture? Is it right to inflict pain on someone, just because they might fit a negative stereotype?
Stephan

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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1504 of 1656
Subject: Re: WTO Date: 12/13/1999 8:55 AM
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<<Yes, several hundred business owners were severely inconvenienced in Seattle. Some may go out of business. >>

Severely inconvenienced??? Do you call putting someone out of business an inconvenience??? I don't think they would agree with you on that.

I don't think American or other First World Companies have the right to ruin another country for their benefit. I just don't think that those punks did any good by what they did in Seattle.

<<I think people who spend a lot of energy getting mad at the
Anarchists and other property destroyers are missing the big picture.>>

Oh, we get the big picture. We also get the little picture. A bunch of punks took this opportunity to destroy someone else's livelihood.

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Author: hansf Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1505 of 1656
Subject: Re: WTO Date: 12/14/1999 2:24 PM
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Except for placing a giant lazer on the moon, what did Starbucks do that was so evil? From what I understand, Starbucks employees are much better off in terms of pay and benefits than most other coffee shop employees.
I may be wrong, but aren't the property destroyers the one missing the big picture? Is it right to inflict pain on someone, just because they might fit a negative stereotype?
Stephan


Hi Stephan and Frecs,
I'm trying to be angry at the destroyers of property. It's wrong to steal and vandalize and definitely wrong to harm others for any reason. I am mad at them. But, I just can't help but be more angry about what's going on in the world for profit.

I'm not saying the Starbucks is all bad. I'm just saying that they can do a whole lot better for the world as a whole. I agree that the Starbucks employees are not guilty of anything more than me as consumers and corporate employees. I work for AT&T and I buy too much stuff. I'm trying to learn about the impact of my actions and promote change for the better. Starbucks is far from the only villain in this story. The bad they do is repeated by thousands of corporations and supported by millions of consumers.

No Starbucks employees were attacked, only empty stores. Indeed, the "violent" protesters did not physically harm anyone.

Starbucks as a corporation is guilty. It helps facillitate the destruction of rainforest and the poisoning of native people by only buying unnaturally grown coffee. And that darn moon laser is keeping me awake at night:)

Here's a little coffee primer. Coffee is naturally grown as a lower layer in the rainforest canopy. When grown this way, coffee can be grown sustainably, with no pesticides or herbicides, forever. The vast majority of coffee is now produced by clearing rainforest, planting coffee plants in the sun, using chemical fertilizers and pesticides. Several weeks ago I went to a neighborhood forum where a woman who has visited sweat shops all over the world spoke. She told of visiting a coffee plantation where the smell of pesticide forced her to cover her face with a handerchief and still it made her sick. Kids were picking the coffee and since the berries are sweet, they would eat every 10th berry they picked, poison pesticide and all. Kid after kid, day after day, country after country, being poisoned.

With an educated, relatively affluent clientele, Starbucks has a unique opportunity to publicize and change the way coffee is grown. They have finally grudgingly agreed to offer a shade grown coffee. But, from what I hear, it's still not available in their stores. Starbucks is dragging its feet, putting profit before people.

So, again, who do I feel more sorry for; the Starbucks employees who are having their belief system challenged, or two thirds world people whose land is being ruined and kids are being poisoned. It's a no brainer.

My point is this - If the media and the people saved half the time and energy they are expending lamenting the "violent" protest and used that the educate themselves and think about what is going on and why, the world would be far better off.

What we can do: When you go to Starbucks, ask for shade grown coffee. If you work there, ask about how their coffee is produced. Do some independent research. Demand change.

Hans

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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1506 of 1656
Subject: Re: WTO Date: 12/14/1999 2:46 PM
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<<So, again, who do I feel more sorry for; the Starbucks employees who are having their belief system challenged, or two thirds
world people whose land is being ruined and kids are being poisoned. It's a no brainer.

My point is this - If the media and the people saved half the time and energy they are expending lamenting the "violent" protest
and used that the educate themselves and think about what is going on and why, the world would be far better off.

What we can do: When you go to Starbucks, ask for shade grown coffee. If you work there, ask about how their coffee is
produced. Do some independent research. Demand change.

Hans >>

First, it wasn't the Starbucks' employees' belief systems that were challenged, just their ability to make a living.

Charity begins at home. Before those protesters start destroying property, perhaps they should clean up around their back door. I bet ya a buck that they wear Nike shoes, have computers and pagers and cell phones, and drink Starbucks coffee, espresso, drive cars, wear clothes made in third-world countries, and otherwise participate in our consumer economy (which is mostly supported on the backs and sweat of those people they proport to sympathize with). Where do they think those things come from? How do they think the costs are kept down?

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Author: hansf Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1507 of 1656
Subject: Re: WTO Date: 12/14/1999 4:07 PM
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Hi Frecs,
My guess is that most of the protesters who you are so venomously opposed to are probably more aware and planet friendly in their consumption (if not their direct treatment of others) than you and me.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the small picture of the protesters.

I bet ya a buck that they wear Nike shoes, have computers and pagers and cell phones, and drink Starbucks coffee, espresso, drive cars, wear clothes made in third-world countries, and otherwise participate in our consumer economy (which is mostly supported on the backs and sweat of those people they proport to sympathize with).

You and I do share the belief that we have a problem with our destructive impact on the two thirds world and that we must change. Thank you for helping me get my thoughts out on this. I'm going to write a letter to the Seattle Times. I'll post it.

Thanks again and Peace
Hans

PS - Chris showed me the trick on italicizing. Type a "<" then a "i" then ">" to start italics format and "<" then "/i" and ">" to end (don't type the "s). Use b instead of i for bold. Thank you DeadHead!

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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1508 of 1656
Subject: Re: WTO Date: 12/14/1999 4:15 PM
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My guess is that most of the protesters who you are so venomously opposed to are probably more aware and planet friendly
in their consumption (if not their direct treatment of others) than you and me.


We'll have to agree to disagree because you have more faith in them than I do.

Pax

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Author: DEPAXTON One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1513 of 1656
Subject: Re: WTO Date: 12/23/1999 4:12 PM
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It is never right to do a wrong, what some companies are doing is wrong-wrong big time, but like I said it is never right to do wrong.

A case in point: I do not agree with killing unborn children, but at the same time I think it is likewise wrong to kill the doctors etc.

If we do not agree with the actions of a group, instead of harming them, which will only drive the two sides further apart, what we should be doing is modeling to them the way we would like them to act.

Just my 2cents,
DP

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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1514 of 1656
Subject: Re: WTO Date: 12/26/1999 4:59 PM
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If we do not agree with the actions of a group, instead of harming them, which will only drive the two
sides further apart, what we should be doing is modeling to them the way we would like them to act.


Amen, Bro!

Frecs

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Author: stephan1000 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1515 of 1656
Subject: Re: WTO Date: 1/3/2000 8:06 PM
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Does anybody have links to middle-of-the-road, or at least calm, information on the WTO.

Better late than never, the links below are not-middle-of-the-road; they are actually pro-WTO, but since only anti-WTO links have been posted so far, I think it is only fair to post the other side of the issue.
Stephan

http://www.cato.org/dailys/01-03-00b.html

http://www.freetrade.org/pubs/freetotrade/freetrade.html

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