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Using hydrogen fuel risks locking in reliance on fossil fuels, researchers warn
www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/may/06/hydrogen-fuel-ri...
Fuels produced from hydrogen can be used as straight replacements for oil and gas and can be low-carbon, if renewable electricity is used to produce these “e-fuels”. However, the research found that using the electricity directly to power cars and warm houses was far more efficient. The analysis estimated that hydrogen-based fuels would be very expensive and scarce in the coming decade. Therefore, equipment such as “hydrogen-ready” boilers could end up reliant on fossil gas and continue to produce the carbon emissions driving global heating....

“Hydrogen-based fuels can be a great clean energy carrier, yet their costs and associated risks are also great,” said Falko Ueckerdt, at the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research (PIK) in Germany, who led the research.

“If we cling to combustion technologies and hope to feed them with hydrogen-based fuels, and these turn out to be too costly and scarce, then we will end up burning further oil and gas,” he said. “We should therefore prioritise those precious hydrogen-based fuels for applications for which they are indispensable: long-distance aviation, feedstocks in chemical production and steel production.”

DB2
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The chicken and egg problem is always there in new energy technologies. You investment in both supply and equipment to use it. People will not invest in one until the other is there. Someone must take the risk to get it started. That continues until a new system is well established and widely accepted.

Systems that can be used with alternatives that are already available are a plus. Ethanol in gasoline is an example of one such system. Major changes raise the level of risk for all concerned.
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The chicken and egg problem is always there in new energy technologies. You investment in both supply and equipment to use it. People will not invest in one until the other is there...Systems that can be used with alternatives that are already available are a plus. Ethanol in gasoline is an example of one such system.

Yep, this is one of the somewhat unsung advantages of electric cars. There is already ubiquitous electric supply in this country. Of course there is additional investment for fast chargers, etc ... but for a lot of people, me included, going electric for most driving entailed nothing but plugging in the charging cord that came with their car into an existing outlet near the parking spot.
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Ben Solar (Can we just use your initials?): Yep, this is one of the somewhat unsung advantages of electric cars. There is already ubiquitous electric supply in this country. Of course there is additional investment for fast chargers, etc ... but for a lot of people, me included, going electric for most driving entailed nothing but plugging in the charging cord that came with their car into an existing outlet near the parking spot.

How do you recharge your electric vehicle? I am reading an interesting book https://www.amazon.com/s?k=The+Energy+Disruption+Triangle&am... *

Approximately a third is devoted toe EV's. A considerable amount is related to charging the EV. It's not a trivial consideration. Three levels of chargers are discussed. Level 1 uses our conventional 120 volt household electricity. With this, it can take 12 hours to charge a (fully discharged) 50 mile battery. This is really not usable, even for a daily commute to work and back. Level 2 uses 240 volt power. Now that 50-mile range can be charged in three to five hours. To get what I would consider an acceptable charging system one needs a DC Fast Charger - with 480 VDC. These can get full charges in an hour or so. Such a system is too expensive for the average user.

For me to become a Tesla owner, I need a quick, reliable way to recharge. Some office buildings are starting to have chargers. I see parking lot charging stations around several stores in my area. There is even a charger at a park in my neighborhood (apparently one pays by credit card.) Someone said that if you attempt to use a Tesla Supercharger on a non-Tesla car, it will not give you a full charge.

CNC
*Interestingly, when I use that link, I get an ad for a 40 amp 240 volt charger for $649. But you still need to wire your house with 40 amps of 240 V available. Actually, on looking further, there are several ads for chargers on that screen.
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Level 1 uses our conventional 120 volt household electricity. With this, it can take 12 hours to charge a (fully discharged) 50 mile battery. This is really not usable, even for a daily commute to work and back.

50 miles per day for 365 days is 18K miles, so it is still something. Plenty of people could get by with this as long as they had a fast charger location they could go to for longer trips.
You can Google the average commute length and verify this.

Level 2 uses 240 volt power. Now that 50-mile range can be charged in three to five hours.

The typical L2 charger provides ~6 kw. In my Tesla this gives about 25 miles of range in an hour, far better than your quoted 3-5 hours. This is fine for a home or work charger. A full 300 mile charge is 10-12 hours.

To get what I would consider an acceptable charging system one needs a DC Fast Charger - with 480 VDC. These can get full charges in an hour or so. Such a system is too expensive for the average user.

Of course people aren't going to install these at home, just like they don't have an underground gas tank and pump their own gas. You go to a charging location and refuel for 20-30 minutes. The Tesla Superchargers started at about 100kw. The V2 went to 120kw and they later upped them to 150kw in most locations. And the V3 (about 2 years ago) can charge at 250kw, although it doesn't maintain that rate continuously due to heating in the battery. At that peak rate it charges at a rate of about 1000 miles in an hour.

The CCS chargers have a max rate of 350kw

Mike
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Mike: 50 miles per day for 365 days is 18K miles, so it is still something. Plenty of people could get by with this as long as they had a fast charger location they could go to for longer trips.
You can Google the average commute length and verify this.


Back when I worked for wages, I had a 25 mile commute (one way) from Anaheim to El Segundo, so that may color my perception. Lotsa folks commute much further than that around these parts, 50 miles a day comes to 250 miles a week, say 12,500 miles a year. The Leaf and other small EV's typically had only 50 miles range. I appreciate that Teslas have much more than that, and the others are getting better too.

The typical L2 charger provides ~6 kw. In my Tesla this gives about 25 miles of range in an hour, far better than your quoted 3-5 hours. This is fine for a home or work charger. A full 300 mile charge is 10-12 hours.

The book I cited was copyrighted in 2019. He cites maybe three to five hours for a 50 mile charge for an L2 charger. He says 10-20 miles of range for a one hour charge. He didn't mention the amperage in an L2 charger - could be different today from 2019. 25 miles range in an hour of charge gives 75 miles in three hours. Your mileage may differ. Faster driving will cost more watt hours. Drag, hence mileage, is proportional the speed squared (Actually range would be inversely proportional to speed squared, no?). The good news is that an EV uses little or no fuel idling.

I find the book is interesting and informative. I will be buying Tesla stock. (But not the car - too rich for my blood at this time.)

Out of curiosity, how much did it cost to get 240V service?

CNC
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Out of curiosity, how much did it cost to get 240V service?

CNC


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If you are asking what an L2 system costs, I have no idea. But if you are asking what the basic 240V electric service costs, it almost certain you already have it. Your electric range, electric water heater and electric clothes dryer all use 240V service.

So the real question is how much would it cost to run a new 240V circuit from your breaker box to wherever you want to put your L2 charger thingie. This cost could be a few hundred to a thousand or so depending how long and difficult the wire route will be and what kind of wall repairs, etc will be necessary afterwards.

The big question of whether you have room in your breaker box for anther 240V breaker. If not you likely will need a sub-panel (or replace existing breakers with thinner models to make room) and that would drive the cost up towards the thousand dollar estimate.
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https://www.amazon.com/Pulsar-Level-Electric-Vehicle-Charger...

BHM: If you are asking what an L2 system costs, I have no idea.

$649 at this link I referenced earlier: https://www.amazon.com/Pulsar-Level-Electric-Vehicle-Charger...

CNC
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Note that most homes these days have 200amp main breakers and the wiring to serve that. Volts x amps = watts. At 240v, if you go over 48kw, you will need to upgrade you main breaker panel and maybe service line back to the closest transformer.

6kw charger is fine but over 200kw looks very costly for a homeowner.
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How do you recharge your electric vehicle?

I plug into a regular 120V outlet, which easily charges my Volt from empty to full ~30 mile range overnight.


Three levels of chargers are discussed. Level 1 uses our conventional 120 volt household electricity. With this, it can take 12 hours to charge a (fully discharged) 50 mile battery. This is really not usable, even for a daily commute to work and back.

I disagree. The average US commute is 16 miles each way, 32 miles total. Recharging at home using a 120V outlet will easily cover this plus additional running around for errands and what-not.


Level 2 uses 240 volt power. Now that 50-mile range can be charged in three to five hours. To get what I would consider an acceptable charging system one needs a DC Fast Charger - with 480 VDC...For me to become a Tesla owner, I need a quick, reliable way to recharge.

If you have a Tesla then you start with 250+ mile range when fully charged. At home you only need to be able to recharge however much juice you use in a typical day, topping back off. Unless you are running around as an Uber driver all day it's highly unlikely you need more than 240V, and most people will be just fine with 120V.
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Out of curiosity, how much did it cost to get 240V service?


Service: Nothing, this is what houses come with.
It did cost me ~$350 to buy the charger (technically EVSE, since the charger is really in the car).

I could have installed it myself, since I've added breakers to a panel before. I only needed to run a wire about 24" from my panel, but I wasn't confident in drilling through the back of the panel, so I paid an electrician about $400 to do it. They had an approximately flat rate for doing an EV charger install. He made out since mine was so simple. It took about 20 minutes.

This was about 4 or 5 years ago. The amperage hasn't changed on the spec for L2 chargers. 6kw is the norm but it can vary and be as high as 19kw (80 amps). Each car chooses how much it will take based on the max that an EVSE device can provide. Most homes built in the last 30-40 years can probably provide 40 amps at 240v, the same as an A/C.

A good rule of thumb is to take the kw rating (kw=amps*volts) and multiply by 3 or 4 (depending on the efficiency of the car) to get the number of miles of range added for each hour of charging. eg 6 kw gives you 24 miles in an hour.

Mike
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