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http://finance.yahoo.com/college-education/article/109701/pl...


She spent $97,000 to get a degree in interdisciplinary degree in religious and women's studies? Really?
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<<http://finance.yahoo.com/college-education/article/109701/pl......


She spent $97,000 to get a degree in interdisciplinary degree in religious and women's studies? Really? >>



No she didn't ---- you misread the article. She spent a lot MORE than $100,000 --- that's just the student loan debt the woman is saddled with.



Seattle Pioneer
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I guess I should have said she borrowed. But still, why beg, borrow or steal that much to get a degree like that?
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<<I guess I should have said she borrowed. But still, why beg, borrow or steal that much to get a degree like that? >>



Not much study of economics and business decision making, I'd say.



Seattle Pioneer
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She spent $97,000 to get a degree in interdisciplinary degree in religious and women's studies? Really?

If you look at the NY Times blog (may require registration) where there are comments, there doesn't seem to be a lot of sympathy:

http://bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/28/assigning-responsi...

And then she responded with another NY Times blog entry: http://bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/more-on-cortney-mu...

First and foremost, I openly acknowledge my responsibility for my current situation, as well as the naïveté in my estimation of the return on investment of a “high quality” education and a liberal arts degree. My only explanation is that once I was in school, I didn’t think much about tuition beyond filling out the paperwork, and I did what I always had done: focused on my education.

I accept that this was negligent on my part, but unfortunately, I was too young to know better. I also willingly admit that I am responsible for repaying the money I borrowed. I have been doing this, to the best of my ability, over the course of the last five years and have every intention of continuing to do so.

.
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what I really want isn’t to call a “do-over” so much as it is to re-write the rules of the student loan game as it relates to loan underwriting, counseling and the bankruptcy laws. I’m not alone, and I shared my story not to ask for sympathy or assign blame (that was a direction Ron took on his own) but to encourage change.

AJ
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NPR did a series of reports last week on this very thing. It was an eye opener for me (as a parent who will be sending a son through college soon).

I am not sure if my assumptions have anything to do with reality, but I have always believed that the ivy league schools were not necessarily turning out better educated students -- the value in paying *THAT* kind of money is in the connections and networking opportunities afforded.

My son's high school has excellent and comprehensive online tools for searching the best college for him. We're going to start that process mid-June, and I'm glad that I saw this article and heard those reports.

Andrea
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Andrea, my nephew is currently in the same boat, although he started over spring break when he fell in love with Northwestern after a trip to Chicago.

Fuskie
Who is horrified at the throught the boy he painstakingly raised as a Braves fan could become, gasp, a Cubbie...
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We're going to start that process mid-June

Even with excellent and comprehensive tools, don't rule out actual campus visits -- and even overnight visits (often arranged through the admissions office). Yes, on campus tours are marketing tools for the schools, but they can be very useful.
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<<I accept that this was negligent on my part, but unfortunately, I was too young to know better. I also willingly admit that I am responsible for repaying the money I borrowed. I have been doing this, to the best of my ability, over the course of the last five years and have every intention of continuing to do so.>>



The legal age for signing and enforcing a contract used to be 21 years. Ap[parently cutting that to 18 was a mistake, since even young people of well above average intelligence appear to be incompetent to make such decisions, often enough.

Lowering the voting age to 18 was no doubt also a mistake for the same reason.



Seattle Pioneer
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<<Andrea, my nephew is currently in the same boat, although he started over spring break when he fell in love with Northwestern after a trip to Chicago.
>>



Aren't many of these young people environmentalists who are horrified at our oil culture? Why aren't they electing to stay at home and go to local junior college for education instead of traipsing around the country looking for expensive colleges that would involve high BTU TRAVEL to get to!



Seattle Pioneer
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Who is horrified at the throught the boy he painstakingly raised as a Braves fan could become, gasp, a Cubbie...

Heh. I feel your pain. We tried to raise Dash right -- but instead of a Red Sox fan, he is a Phillies fan.

Sigh. Kids today.

Andrea
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Even with excellent and comprehensive tools, don't rule out actual campus visits -- and even overnight visits (often arranged through the admissions office).

Yes; we have that planned, as well, for the ones that really strike him. So far we have the University of Houston on his list.

Andrea
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Aren't many of these young people environmentalists who are horrified at our oil culture? Why aren't they electing to stay at home and go to local junior college for education instead of traipsing around the country looking for expensive colleges that would involve high BTU TRAVEL to get to!

Not looking for expensive colleges but for THE college that's right for him. Community college is being considered for his first two years, but then he will need to transfer to a 4-year college to finish his degree.

Andrea
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Ugh. I have a friend whose daughter just graduated from the law school at UVA with student loans of $100k. It would be higher but mom and dad have been sending her about $2000 a month for her to live in a decent apartment.

She is non-Virginian, but the difference in out of state vs in-Va for the law school is not as steep as at the undergrad level. She could have attended law school at her state university for about half that.

I am not sure that UVA is twice as good. It might be to her advantage if she remains in VA but that isn't a given. She wants to buy a house, but is now freaking out that she owes half the cost of the condo she looked at to student loans. I am not sure where/if she has a job now.

Her mom is exasperated that her DD is so dumbfounded about owing all that money. Both parents tried to talk her into going to the state school.

In a similar situation, DD has a friend who got into every medical school to which he applied including Harvard. His dad wanted him to go to a state school which has a top reputation for cardiology (his chosen specialty). He would have a lot of loans no matter what, but I think going to Harvard was twice as expensive--more or less. So he is off to Harvard which his dad thought would be better only if his son decided to teach as well as practice.

We are so thrilled that DD is in a PhD program providing health insurance, tuition, and a stipend for the next 5 years. I am spending quite a bit this summer to get her set up in an apartment and moving her stuff, but she should be okay with her stipend. I am sure we will supplement some--especially the first year--but not to the extent my friends with the law and med student are. At any rate, DD managed to get a full ride at one of these schools that cost $50k (actually I think it was $49,860 for the past year) for her last two years. The first 2 years her scholarship only covered tuition, but she had enough local and Nat Merit scholarship money to take a huge bite out of what we would have had to pay for room and board.)



Molly
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Heh. I feel your pain. We tried to raise Dash right -- but instead of a Red Sox fan, he is a Phillies fan.


Could be worse. DD is a Yankees fan!

Mea culpa :-)
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The legal age for signing and enforcing a contract used to be 21 years. Ap[parently cutting that to 18 was a mistake, since even young people of well above average intelligence appear to be incompetent to make such decisions, often enough.


Except that her mother, who was presumably well over 21, also took out loans for her, and neglected to do anything to talk her daughter out of all those loans.

I don't really think the age has much to do with it. I've seen lots of people who are well over 21 who continue to live way beyond their means and dig a huge debt hole. This doesn't seem to be age-dependent.
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So far we have the University of Houston on his list.

Go Coogs! I went there and am fiercely proud of it.

Just had to chime in with my Cougar pride. :) Carry on!
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Community college is being considered for his first two years, but then he will need to transfer to a 4-year college to finish his degree.

The LoneStar college system (located in Houston) has excellent 2 yr schools that transfer pretty seamlessly to U of H .

LWW
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I am not sure if my assumptions have anything to do with reality, but I have always believed that the ivy league schools were not necessarily turning out better educated students -- the value in paying *THAT* kind of money is in the connections and networking opportunities afforded.


And, even that doesn't necessarily pay off financially. There are some studies that show that when you compare kids who got into ivy league schools (or other expensive private schools) but did not attend (went to, say, a state university) to those who got in and did attend .... well there isn't much long term financial difference.

Yes, there is a difference in those who get into an ivy league school and those who can barely get into community college (or even a lower tier state school). But the difference is in the student.

That kid who can get into the ivy league school but decides to go to a state university ends up with long term earnings not that different from the kid who actually goes to the ivy league school.
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Could be worse. DD is a Yankees fan!

Mea culpa :-)


Haha! My condolences! :)

Andrea
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Go Coogs! I went there and am fiercely proud of it.

Just had to chime in with my Cougar pride. :) Carry on!


I will tell him! :)

Andrea
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The LoneStar college system (located in Houston) has excellent 2 yr schools that transfer pretty seamlessly to U of H .

LWW


Thanks for that tip, LWW! I was wondering if it would make sense for him to go to a 2 year school out of state -- he would have to live somewhere.

I will look into that.

Andrea
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The legal age for signing and enforcing a contract used to be 21 years. Ap[parently cutting that to 18 was a mistake, since even young people of well above average intelligence appear to be incompetent to make such decisions, often enough.

Legally you are an adult at 18 years of age. If you want to raise the age for signing contracts to age 21, are you prepared to also force parents to keep their offspring in their house until age 21 even if they don't want them there?

PSU
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The legal age for signing and enforcing a contract used to be 21 years. Ap[parently cutting that to 18 was a mistake, since even young people of well above average intelligence appear to be incompetent to make such decisions, often enough.

Lowering the voting age to 18 was no doubt also a mistake for the same reason.

Seattle Pioneer


If you can't sign a contract till age 21, you can't sign the lease for your own apartment till then, either. Requiring parents (custodial and non) to support them until that age would logically follow. Hellooooo, unintended consequences!
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crud. Beaten to it.
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<<Legally you are an adult at 18 years of age. If you want to raise the age for signing contracts to age 21, are you prepared to also force parents to keep their offspring in their house until age 21 even if they don't want them there?

PSU >>



There was never such an obligation. And needn't be.



Seattle Pioneer
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There was never such an obligation. And needn't be.

So you are okay with forcing kids to live on the streets for three years. Or are you okay as a landlord to rent your property to a 19 year old where you can't legally bind them to a contract.

PSU
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crud. Beaten to it.

But you did say it better, especially with the unintended consequences comment.
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http://www.peoples-law.org/housing/ltenant/legal%20info/mino...



<<However, there is an exception. If a minor receives any of the "basic necessities of life under a contract, s/he is bound to pay for them at a reasonable price. Lodging is considered a basic necessity (Corpus Juris Secundum, Infants, Section 181).

>>
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Legally you are an adult at 18 years of age. If you want to raise the age for signing contracts to age 21, are you prepared to also force parents to keep their offspring in their house until age 21 even if they don't want them there?

Legally, you're an adult at 18, but that doesn't prevent laws of exception that say you can't consume alcohol until you're 21.

We have students here whose parents co-sign the lease for them to get an apartment of their own. Would it be any different if the legal age to sign the contract was 21? Either way, the offspring isn't living at home.

LWW
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<<However, there is an exception. If a minor receives any of the "basic necessities of life under a contract, s/he is bound to pay for them at a reasonable price. Lodging is considered a basic necessity (Corpus Juris Secundum, Infants, Section 181).

Okay I didn't know that but further reading indicates contracts with a minor are voidable at any time. Are you prepared as a landlord to rental your property to a minor knowing that he/she can void it at any time? This means you can't bind them to a year contract or some other period of time. Also from further reading, it appears you may not be able recover damages to your rental property from the minor.
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We have students here whose parents co-sign the lease for them to get an apartment of their own. Would it be any different if the legal age to sign the contract was 21? Either way, the offspring isn't living at home.

What is the kid to do if the parent won't co-sign for a lease? The reason I'm bring up the issue is that my neighbor just kicked out her 18 year old son. What problems would he face if he couldn't be bound to contracts until 21 as SP suggests?

PSU
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The reason I'm bring up the issue is that my neighbor just kicked out her 18 year old son. What problems would he face if he couldn't be bound to contracts until 21 as SP suggests?

Apply for emancipation with the courts? That's what 16-17 yr olds around here do if they get kicked out of the house before they turn 18.

LWW
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It sure is amazing how much a thread can devolve.
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It sure is amazing how much a thread can devolve.

You're right. To drag this back OT - The woman was a fool(small f) if she thought she would ever make enough money to pay back all those loans with her degree choice. And her mother was a fool for thinking that it was important for her daughter to go to N.Y.U. if they didn't have the budget to pay for at least half the educational costs up front. More likely, mom thought her daughter would bag a rich husband. Instead she's now looking at paying back student loans for the rest of her working life.

LWW
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<<<<However, there is an exception. If a minor receives any of the "basic necessities of life under a contract, s/he is bound to pay for them at a reasonable price. Lodging is considered a basic necessity (Corpus Juris Secundum, Infants, Section 181).

Okay I didn't know that but further reading indicates contracts with a minor are voidable at any time. Are you prepared as a landlord to rental your property to a minor knowing that he/she can void it at any time? This means you can't bind them to a year contract or some other period of time. Also from further reading, it appears you may not be able recover damages to your rental property from the minor.>>



As suggested by the link, contracts for necessities made by minors are enforceable, although a court might limit damages and onerous terms.

And of course month to month tenancies and damage deposits are alternative ways a minor might get housing.

Shucks, I was on my own at age 17 when the age for making contracts was 21. I didn't have a problem functioning.



Seattle Pioneer
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As suggested by the link, contracts for necessities made by minors are enforceable, although a court might limit damages and onerous terms.

Your own link says that the contracts are voidable by a minor at any time. You as a landlord can hold him to paying reasonable rent while the minor occupies the residence but you can't hold him to the length of the contract. Your link was the first Google hit. If you decide to look a little deeper, you will discover more information on the topic.
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I've seen several articles that say one of the results of these students with lots of debt is that it will cause them to delay buying homes. Of course, if it prevents them from buying more house than they can afford that's one thing. OTOH, it may depress expected home sales further.

That was the problem my friend's daughter was having. She realized if she didn't have her $100k in law school debt, she would be able to buy the condo she wanted. Of course, having a law degree is more likely to pay itself off than whatever the weird combination major the woman in the article had. And I am sure she will eventually buy her house, just later rather than sooner.

Molly
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<<As suggested by the link, contracts for necessities made by minors are enforceable, although a court might limit damages and onerous terms.

Your own link says that the contracts are voidable by a minor at any time. You as a landlord can hold him to paying reasonable rent while the minor occupies the residence but you can't hold him to the length of the contract. Your link was the first Google hit. If you decide to look a little deeper, you will discover more information on the topic.>>


No doubt there are variations among states regarding the ability of minors to be held to contracts they make.

Contracts for "necessities" are ones that may be enforceable.

Here's another link supporting that concept:

<<Exceptions to Voidability by Minors
There are certain contracts entered into by minors which are not voidable at their option. Since certain transactions provide significant benefits to minors, the law considers those transactions to be binding on them. Typical exceptions to a minor's right to avoid their contract obligations include:

•Contracts for necessities such as food, lodging and medical services
•Statutory exceptions including insurance contracts and student loans >>


http://www.chicagofamilylawblog.com/-news-and-updates-contra...




Seattle Pioneer
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Who is horrified at the throught the boy he painstakingly raised as a Braves fan could become, gasp, a Cubbie...

---------------------------------------------------------

Heh. I feel your pain. We tried to raise Dash right -- but instead of a Red Sox fan, he is a Phillies fan.


NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!


--Booa :-)
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Nazis! SUVs! People who knowingly have more cats than they can support! Why do their cats hate America?


--Booa :-) (accelerating the devolution, as usual)
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SeattlePioneer,

You wrote, The legal age for signing and enforcing a contract used to be 21 years. Ap[parently cutting that to 18 was a mistake, since even young people of well above average intelligence appear to be incompetent to make such decisions, often enough.

Points of Interest about the Age of Majority:

1. The age of majority is not consistently considered to be 18 throughout the USA. Mississippi places the age of majority at 21; but considers a contract binding at the age of 18. (I believe any 18 year-old can engage in a contract in the USA today, so I'm not sure what difference this distinction makes.)

2. The age of majority is actually younger than 18 in the United States if you marry before reaching 18. Many states allow marriage as early as 14. A legal marriage certificate conveys rights of majority to those that would otherwise be considered minors.

3. There are still countries today that convey rights of majority as early as age 14 (ex: American Samoa, a US territory) and as late as 21 (ex: Egypt, Chad, Bahrain).

4. In centuries past, some countries have considered the age of majority to be as young as 12. This was probably viewed as a necessity since life expectancy was sometimes relatively short.

- Joel
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4. In centuries past, some countries have considered the age of majority to be as young as 12. This was probably viewed as a necessity since life expectancy was sometimes relatively short.


In England, Margaret Beaufort gave birth to Henry VII at 12. So possibly her majority was earlier considering the length of pregnancy. Eleanor of Provence gave birth to Edward I (Longshanks) at 13 after marrying at 12.
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As suggested by the link, contracts for necessities made by minors are enforceable, although a court might limit damages and onerous terms.

And of course month to month tenancies and damage deposits are alternative ways a minor might get housing.

Shucks, I was on my own at age 17 when the age for making contracts was 21. I didn't have a problem functioning.



Seattle Pioneer

Sp, have you ever considered writing a book of your life's story? (or at least a blog of it).

joycets
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Booa, I KNOW we have more cats than we can support. I just didn't know she was pregnant when she jumped up on DH's lap and started purring at him. (dropped off "in the country", doncha know).

joycets
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"Lady Margaret Beaufort (31 May 1443 – 29 June 1509). Margaret was married to Suffolk's son, John de la Pole. The wedding was held between 28 January and 7 February 1450. Papal dispensation was granted on 18 August 1450 because the spouses were too closely related."

Considering she was born in 1443 that means she was married at age 7, and yet the pope was worried about how closely related they were?
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"Lady Margaret Beaufort (31 May 1443 – 29 June 1509). Margaret was married to Suffolk's son, John de la Pole. The wedding was held between 28 January and 7 February 1450. Papal dispensation was granted on 18 August 1450 because the spouses were too closely related."

Considering she was born in 1443 that means she was married at age 7, and yet the pope was worried about how closely related they were?


She was going to get older, but they weren't going to get any less closely related.


--Booa (and no, I don't think people should get married at 7 years old)
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Considering she was born in 1443 that means she was married at age 7, and yet the pope was worried about how closely related they were?

Well, consummation of marriages didn't happen till after puberty, of course. There was another ceremony at that time.

We call it engagement nowadays - getting engaged with intent to marry at some point in the future.

Arthur and Katherine of Aragon were married VERY young... around 4 or 5 I think (though I would have to check that) however Katherine didn't travel to England till she was around 12. A lot of these marriages were dynastic allegiances where the rulers involved were more concerned about declaring to the world that they were allied via their children than they were concerned about grandchildren. :) In fact, marriages could be broken off before the consummation and sometimes were - like I said, what they called "marriage" is more like what we call "engagement" these days.

But certainly by 12, many high-born girls of the past were either in consummated marriages or were committed such that papal dispensation would be their only route out.
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