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The Tea-Baggers and Chickenhawks may have already ensured the Apocalypse.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/magazine/it-s-already-too-lat...

intercst
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<< The Tea-Baggers and Chickenhawks may have already ensured the Apocalypse.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/magazine/it-s-already-too-lat......

intercst>>


Actually, that would be Al Gore's Kyoto Treaty, which insured that nothing significant would be done about climate change.

Get used to change, my liberal friends! It's what's happening!



Seattle Pioneer
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page not found.....

apparently yanked for one reason or another.


you are right.

Going back to 1820s living will not do a thing. Well, if you stop emitting carbon totally today......the rise in sea level in 2100 will be exactly , precisely, 1 inch less than if we do nothing.

That's 1 inch out of 2 feet.

So let's all give up our cars, our houses, move to yurts heated by solar panels and magic energy beads yet to be invented, grow 90% of all our own food, and trade with each other with magical wampum .....to save the planet. of course, 90% of us would have to voluntarily croak since without the use of carbon fuels, we could not get enough food for 'all' of us. But that shouldn't be a problem for liberals to resolve.



t.
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That's what I've been saying. No one is going to do anything. Forget it, it's not going to happen. It's irrelevant whether it's real or not because no one is going to do anything regardless. China, India, Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia, Russia, etc. are all going to just keep doing exactly like they've been doing and so are we.

Eat, Drink, and Be Merry for tomorrow we Die!

Art
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I refuse to be that pessimistic. Many of the most powerful countries are working on reducing fossil fuel consumption because they know that not only is it a finite resource, but is causing climate disruption.

I believe we are late in doing something, but I haven't lost all hope. And not only that, but as the planet changes, people will reduce in numbers due to the catastrophic changes (perhaps in 25 to 50 years), which will help to slow the changes somewhat.

This is not the end of mankind but the end of an era.
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"And not only that, but as the planet changes, people will reduce in numbers due to the catastrophic changes (perhaps in 25 to 50 years), which will help to slow the changes somewhat. This is not the end of mankind but the end of an era." - lindytoes


You know what's going to cure climate change? Peak oil. There are bazillions of cars out there. I swear to god! Have you seen the traffic? Driven on the expressway? I think there are more cars than there are people.

No way can we keep driving all the motor vehicles that we drive and not use up all the oil eventually. It may take a hundred more years but eventually the Earth will run out of petroleum. It can't be an infinite resource.

And you know what's going to cure over population? Peak Oil. Food, for all practical purposes, is made out of cheap energy in the form of oil. When the oil runs out so will the mountains of cheap food we currently produce.

Humans are just animals and like all animals they reproduce to fit the available food supply. When the food is gone so will all the excess humans. It's sort of like a nut year for hardwood trees. When they produce a lot of nuts there are a lot of squirrels but when there is a lean year and not too many nuts then the squirrel population naturally thins out.

Like my momma used to say, "when it's gone, it's gone!"

Art
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Their goal: pave the way toward a world treaty, to be signed in 2015, aimed at slowing global emissions of heat-trapping fossil-fuel pollution enough to keep the planet’s temperature from rising by 2 degrees Celsius

There was never any chance of making the 2°C target even when it was set back in 2009. It was a political 'aspirational' statement, not a reachable goal.

DB2
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You know what's going to cure climate change? Peak oil. There are bazillions of cars out there. I swear to god! Have you seen the traffic? Driven on the expressway? I think there are more cars than there are people.

No way can we keep driving all the motor vehicles that we drive and not use up all the oil eventually. It may take a hundred more years but eventually the Earth will run out of petroleum. It can't be an infinite resource.


Perhaps. There is also hope for new forms of energy. For example, there' sort of Moore's law when it comes to the cost of solar PV. At the beginning of the century the cost was something like $8/watt. Now it is down around a buck. It doesn't have to get a whole lot lower before it becomes practical for most applications. We're already moving towards electric cars.
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We were never going to stop climate change.

The Chinese will wipe out every last rhino so they can have a little powdered rhino horn to help their sex lives. They sure as heck aren't going to stop burning hydrocarbons. Neither are we.

Someone living on a dollar a day doesn't really care much about the ice caps or polar bears. Sea level increases 50 years in the future? Not a big deal when you are looking to survive now.

It's the prisoners dilemma.
Q. If everyone agrees to work for the common good, what is the best way to ensure you personally have the best possible outcome?

A. Screw everyone else and do what is best for you.
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"Perhaps. There is also hope for new forms of energy. For example, there' sort of Moore's law when it comes to the cost of solar PV. At the beginning of the century the cost was something like $8/watt. Now it is down around a buck. It doesn't have to get a whole lot lower before it becomes practical for most applications. We're already moving towards electric cars." - sykesix

--------------


I just have a difficult time believing there's enough energy in sunlight to carry my lazy fat butt to the grocery store to buy more food. They'd have to save it up for a long time to get enough kilowatts to transport my lazy carcass around.

I hope I'm long gone by the time the gas runs out.

Art
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<<You know what's going to cure climate change? Peak oil. >>

The Peak Oil theory that the Tea-Baggers have been thumping for years has been debunked. Just as it's often happened in the past, an innovative combination of existing technologies (horizontal drilling and chemical fracturing) has greatly increased our proven reserves. US oil production is forecast to exceed Saudi Arabia by 2020.

http://www.american.com/archive/2012/december/gushing-about-...

More oil production = more global warming

intercst
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"The Peak Oil theory that the Tea-Baggers have been thumping for years has been debunked. Just as it's often happened in the past, an innovative combination of existing technologies (horizontal drilling and chemical fracturing) has greatly increased our proven reserves. US oil production is forecast to exceed Saudi Arabia by 2020.

http://www.american.com/archive/2012/december/gushing-about-......

More oil production = more global warming" - intercst



That's good to know that it's going to last at least as long as I do but there can't be an endless supply, especially with the bazillions of cars we have on the road. Have you been out in rush hour traffic? It's unbelievable.

I mean if the Earth were completely made out of oil at some point we got to run out? The constant stream of traffic on the expressways and freeways is mind boggling, especially when you consider the giant SUV's and trucks that are on the roads.

And one of my pet peeves most of these giant gas guzzlers have only one person in them. People talk about buying vans and SUVs and Trucks to haul their families around but most of the time, if you look around, there is only one person in the car.

And if I could afford it I'd buy and even smaller more fuel efficient car than the one I'm driving. I wish the Scion I.Q. got better gas mileage than it does. Or the Smart Car. If they got 50 miles to the gallon I'd be tempted to buy one.

I'm sort of saving up to buy a Prius C; maybe like after I start social security? I don't know. The problem is my car is paid for and it only has 53,000 miles on it and runs fine and gets decent gas mileage 31/37 and I only drive like 5,000 miles a year so the damn thing will probably last me till I'm 70 and I probably won't live a whole lot longer after that anyway. Sigh!

Art
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<<And if I could afford it I'd buy and even smaller more fuel efficient car than the one I'm driving. I wish the Scion I.Q. got better gas mileage than it does. Or the Smart Car. If they got 50 miles to the gallon I'd be tempted to buy one.

I'm sort of saving up to buy a Prius C; maybe like after I start social security?>>

<<The problem is my car is paid for and it only has 53,000 miles on it and runs fine and gets decent gas mileage 31/37 and I only drive like 5,000 miles a year so the damn thing will probably last me till I'm 70 >>





Hey Art---

Your're only spending $500/year on fuel as it is.

Buying a new car for reasons of economy is usually something for suckers to do. Be HAPPY with what you have!

Or buy a new car when you win the lottery!



Seattle Pioneer
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I just have a difficult time believing there's enough energy in sunlight to carry my lazy fat butt to the grocery store to buy more food.

Perhaps not (not yet-), but the Prius storage battery sucks up energy from braking, which seems even weirder!

My husband thinks we don't really need 2 cars when he retires. But I say let's keep his 10-year-old Prius until we can't drive it any more. We have to keep the CR-V as it has been modified for towing behind the RV. But we can both use the Prius for errands with just 1 or 2 of us. I have budgeted $60/month for gasoline in retirement (outside of RV trips), which is $20 more than we typically spend now, but I figure we might drive around more in retirement. Also since my BFF moved away, I don't have her doing half the driving when we did stuff together <sniff! miss her>.

I'm not sure why so many people drive huge trucks & SUVs when they seldom, if ever, haul anything. We've always liked having one very small car with great gas mileage and one compact or midsize sedan or small SUV/minivan for hauling kids/stuff. We don't really haul much stuff any more. Some men don't feel manly without a big vehicle. Some women don;t feel safe if they don't drive a tank. I think Madison Avenue is very skilled ;-)

FRUGAL GOOD FORTUNE
What with school, DH hasn't taken his Prius in for its 60k service, and it already has over 61k miles. So the local Toyota dealer called to offer a 15% discount coupon to get him in. Awright!
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"I'm not sure why so many people drive huge trucks & SUVs when they seldom, if ever, haul anything. We've always liked having one very small car with great gas mileage and one compact or midsize sedan or small SUV/minivan for hauling kids/stuff. We don't really haul much stuff any more." - alstromeria


Where I live it's redneck as hell and it's a status symbol to have a big truck with humongous tires like a Dodge Durango or a Ford F250 and/or a big gas guzzling SUV. They are everywhere. And I don't have a problem with that if there is more than one person in the vehicle and they work construction or haul wood or something but mostly when I drive around town running errands what I see are thousands of cars with one person in it hauling nothing. Maybe groceries?

I realize that it's not economically smart to have more than one vehicle and you end up paying more for car insurance and registration and things like that so it doesn't pay to have a small fuel efficient car as an extra to run errands with but idealistically speaking, it sure would be nice if all those folks driving tanks could leave them parked except for when they actually needed them?

It's just one of my pet peeves. If I could afford it I'd be driving a Prius. I'm sort of saving up for buying a Prius one day.

I just hate waste. That is all.

Art
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alstro: "Perhaps not (not yet-), but the Prius storage battery sucks up energy from braking, which seems even weirder!"

Not in the least. It is called regenerative braking...and has been around for decades. It extends your range and is possible to do when you have an electric motor driving the car..

simple (but complex) engineering.
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alstro:"My husband thinks we don't really need 2 cars when he retires. But I say let's keep his 10-year-old Prius until we can't drive it any more. We have to keep the CR-V as it has been modified for towing behind the RV. "

Well, that would mean, if you only want one car, that the Prius goes.....right?

Plus of course, the cost of keeping the Prius is likely at least $200 a month. Between insurance, annual registration inspection, and depreciation, not even counting maintenance which will increase with more miles......

I'm sure just the 60K checkup will separate a lot of cash from your wallet and hand to Toyota dealer...


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alstro:"I'm not sure why so many people drive huge trucks & SUVs when they seldom, if ever, haul anything."


Sort of like you having two cars...and planning on keeping two because, well, one of them can be towed behind the RV...

Some have them to tow a boat...or load in the 3 kids and the soccer team...or haul all the stuff to the summer house.....

or haul the dogs around town....and some folks like the 'high up' ride they have.....or want 4 wheel or off road capability......


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alstro:" We've always liked having one very small car with great gas mileage and one compact or midsize sedan or small SUV/minivan for hauling kids/stuff."

I had a van for about 8 years....great for hauling stuff!......wish I had access to one at times to haul something big....but not fun to drive around in congested suburbs...or park...I got rid of mine when i moved to Arlington VA...couldn't fit in any garage parking anywhere and tough to navigate in traffic.

Now I got a Prius for around town, and a Malibu for road trips....

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alstro:"Some women don;t feel safe if they don't drive a tank. I think Madison Avenue is very skilled ;-)"


You ever see what happens when a MG Midget gets crunched?

-------



t
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<<I realize that it's not economically smart to have more than one vehicle and you end up paying more for car insurance and registration and things like that so it doesn't pay to have a small fuel efficient car as an extra to run errands with but idealistically speaking, it sure would be nice if all those folks driving tanks could leave them parked except for when they actually needed them? >>


Thought you drove a pickup yourself, Art. And by your own admission you use it to haul just yourself around, most of the time.

You make the classic mistake of resenting what you see others doing when you are doing pretty much the same thing yourself.

How about just leaving people ALONE?



Seattle Pioneer
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SP:"Thought you drove a pickup yourself, Art. And by your own admission you use it to haul just yourself around, most of the time."


Artimus has a five or 7 year old Nissan....small car.....

and his wife has a Toyota Corolla or something like that....


they don't own no pick'em up trucks.....


Now back in East TN in Union County.....the average guy probably has at least one pickup that runs...plus another big car...and maybe a small car or two....plus some quads....for running 'back in the woods'.....and maybe a fishin' boat...



t.
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"Artimus has a five or 7 year old Nissan....small car.....and his wife has a Toyota Corolla or something like that....they don't own no pick'em up trucks.....Now back in East TN in Union County.....the average guy probably has at least one pickup that runs...plus another big car...and maybe a small car or two....plus some quads....for running 'back in the woods'.....and maybe a fishin' boat..." tele


I have owned trucks and vans and boats. I once owned a small 1982 Datsun with a 2.4 liter diesel engine and I could kick myself for ever selling it. I plead temporary insanity. I also owned a Toyota Extra Cab for a while, and have owned a Dodge Caravan and also a Toyota Previa for a while.

I've spent way too much money on vehicles in my life. Or I should say I've blown way too much money on vehicles in my life.

I was young and stupid and I plead temporary insanity. What can I say? I Like cars. I don't consider that to be a good thing. I wish I didn't.

If I felt rich I'd run out and buy a Toyota Prius C, oh yes I would! Right now I'm trying to hang onto my money but I'm thinking maybe after I start social security I might splurge and buy something to drive out west in? I don't think my little Nissan Sentra would be too comfortable for a trip driving up and down the Rocky Mountains.

Art
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I don't think my little Nissan Sentra would be too comfortable for a trip driving up and down the Rocky Mountains.

I had a 2001 Nissan Sentra. Pretty great car really. Drove the wheels off that thing.
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Art: Where I live it's redneck as hell and it's a status symbol to have a big truck with humongous tires like a Dodge Durango or a Ford F250 and/or a big gas guzzling SUV. They are everywhere.

On another board, it's well known that a big truck is a sign of a small package. Sort of a small penis over compensation.

Count Upp
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I don't think my little Nissan Sentra would be too comfortable for a trip driving up and down the Rocky Mountains.

Art


I've been in that car and you've got that right, Art.
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"I had a 2001 Nissan Sentra. Pretty great car really. Drove the wheels off that thing." - sykesix


I live 9 miles from a HUGE Nissan plant in Smyrna, TN. Anyone who works at the plant can buy a car at cost and they are allowed to give away 8 vouchers/year for friends and family to also buy a car for what they can buy a car for.

Needless to say Middle Tennessee is filled with people driving Nissans. My car is a white 2005 Nissan Sentra and fairly frequently when I park I'll be setting right next to a car that looks identical to mine. Another words my car is great if the goal is to be inconspicuous.

On a trip to Georgia in the fall I got 37 miles to the gallon on the Expressway and driving down to my brothers house on a 2 lane highway doing 55 miles/hour I got 40 miles to the gallon in my Sentra. It has a 1.8 liter engine. It seems to be a very dependable vehicle that can get me from point A to point B which is what I was looking for when I bought it.

I also wanted to drive a Nissan because I wanted to fit in when we moved here. I thought if I drive a Nissan that I'd be less likely to stand out and be seen as an outsider.

Art
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of course, the cost of keeping the Prius is likely at least $200 a month

The cost of keeping both cars, including insurance (as with all our insurance, we have a high deductible), registration, annual vehicle tax, maintenance, parking, tolls, occasional carwash, and gasoline is about $250/month, and the Prius costs less than half the total. Helps that one car is 10 yrs old and the other 5 yrs old.

Typically, we'd be starting to think about replacing the older car after 10 years, but the mileage is so low, plus we don't know if/when our current lifestyle will change in the nearish future.

Having driven both a mid-size SUV and minivan in the past, I understand the pleasure of sitting high up while driving, and I miss it, but not enough to buy such a vehicle in retirement.

You ever see what happens when a MG Midget gets crunched?

Why compare an SUV to a tiny subcompact as if that were the only alternative? Several mid-size cars compare very favorably to SUVs/minivans in terms of safety--and beat them in terms of gas mileage and cost to repair and insure.

alstro:"I'm not sure why so many people drive huge trucks & SUVs when they seldom, if ever, haul anything."
Sort of like you having two cars...and planning on keeping two because, well, one of them can be towed behind the RV...
Some have them to tow a boat...or load in the 3 kids and the soccer team...or haul all the stuff to the summer house.....
or haul the dogs around town....and some folks like the 'high up' ride they have.....or want 4 wheel or off road capability......


Nobody I know who owns a large SUV has to drive a whole soccer team(?!) or take stuff to a summer house or haul a large number of dogs around town at the same time. A few do take driving vacations, but most just like having the same kind of car that other people do (like Art said, fitting in).

I bought a CR-V because options were really few for a towable, automatic-shift car with good safety and reliability records and decent gas mileage that was well under the max weight towable by our RV! If DH had been driving something larger than a subcompact, I would've considered a Honda Fit, but like I said, with 2 cars, we like them to be different types and we already had one subcompact. I'm not sure I'd want a subcompact as our only car, unless gasoline gets a lot more expensive.
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"The cost of keeping both cars, including insurance (as with all our insurance, we have a high deductible), registration, annual vehicle tax, maintenance, parking, tolls, occasional carwash, and gasoline is about $250/month, and the Prius costs less than half the total. Helps that one car is 10 yrs old and the other 5 yrs old."

You didn't figure in depreciation which is likely at least 100 a month for each car.


t.
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"The cost of keeping both cars, including insurance (as with all our insurance, we have a high deductible), registration, annual vehicle tax, maintenance, parking, tolls, occasional carwash, and gasoline is about $250/month, and the Prius costs less than half the total. Helps that one car is 10 yrs old and the other 5 yrs old." - alstromeria


If you can afford it and it's not too onerous keep them both. It's not like you can take it with you? Having your own car to run around in is priceless. I wouldn't give up the freedom of having my own car unless I was so broke that I couldn't afford it. I love being able to jump in my car and run errands whenever I want to.

We live better than Kings did in the old days. They didn't have cars, TV's hooked up to Cable TV, cell phones, computers with internet, groceries stuff with food, refrigerators, stoves, central heat and air conditioning, washing machines, hot water heaters and showers and flush commodes.

These are the good old days!

Art
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"You didn't figure in depreciation which is likely at least 100 a month for each car." - tele


Unless they are broke and can't afford it what difference does it make? What it boils down to is if they can afford the extra car or not? Bonnie and I each have our own cars because that way she can go to work and her chiropractor and clothes shopping and yard sales and Goodwill and I can go to Northern Hardware and Sam's Club and Aldi's and where I want to go.

Having your own car to hop in and run around in is priceless. It's an amazing convenience.

Art
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You didn't figure in depreciation which is likely at least 100 a month for each car.

I have a fully funded car fund so I don't need to keep putting money in it. And there's a good chance we'll buy only one more car in our whole lives (which means we'll likely have leftover money to use for another purpose).

I expect we'll manage on one car whenever the Prius dies, whether that's next week, next year, or later. We'll be 70 when the CR-V is 12 years old, and I expect any car we buy around age 70 will last the rest of our driving lives. The car my Mom bought in 1999 at age 73 is her last, and she puts only a few thousand miles on it a year. If it died tomorrow, she'd stop driving (she should do so soon anyway).
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Bonnie and I each have our own cars because that way she can go to work and her chiropractor and clothes shopping and yard sales and Goodwill and I can go to Northern Hardware and Sam's Club and Aldi's and where I want to go.

Having your own car to hop in and run around in is priceless. It's an amazing convenience.


We've noticed that when DH is on school break, we rarely need two separate cars, and then it's really not a need so much as a convenience (which amazes me less than it does you, I guess ;-) Maybe because neither of us has regular appointments like yard saling or chiropractor. We do have farmer's market in season, but usually do that together. Seems like we spend more time shopping online these days.

Anyhow, we'll have two cars for the foreseeable future. When the Prius dies, we can afford to replace it if we choose to--and maybe after a few months on only one car, we'd choose to!

My parents didn't have two cars till I was in high school (not even when they both worked...Mom took Daddy to the railroad station before she went to work, in fact before she woke us up for school, and picked him up at 6 after she fed us dinner), and I didn't have two cars in my household till I was over 30. So maybe making that work is sort of in my blood!
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"My parents didn't have two cars till I was in high school (not even when they both worked...Mom took Daddy to the railroad station before she went to work, in fact before she woke us up for school, and picked him up at 6 after she fed us dinner), and I didn't have two cars in my household till I was over 30. So maybe making that work is sort of in my blood!" alstromeria
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It's all in what you can afford. How much money you got. It's not like you can take it with you. There isn't any prize at the end of life for whoever has the most money left or whoever has been the most frugal.

And I'm going to tell you the truth, I'm the pot calling the kettle black. I'm a frugal tightwad cheapskate but if I could afford it I'd have 5 or 6 cars. I just like them. I like the freedom of being able to hop in my own car and going wherever and whenever I want to and not having to worry about if I'm inconveniencing anyone or leaving anyone (my wife) stranded.

Bonnie and I will keep two cars as long as we can afford and we can both drive. She has her car and I have mine.

Right now Linda has two cars, her Acura and her daughter's Toyota Yaris. The Yaris is bright cherry red and really cute and excellent for running errands around town. The Acura is bigger with a 6 cylinder engine and a whole lot more miles than the Yaris. Right now they are keeping the Yaris for when Linda's daughter comes home but it's looking like she might be working overseas for quite a while. They are trying to decide on whether they should sell the Yaris or not.

Art
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<<I have a fully funded car fund so I don't need to keep putting money in it. And there's a good chance we'll buy only one more car in our whole lives (which means we'll likely have leftover money to use for another purpose).

I expect we'll manage on one car whenever the Prius dies, whether that's next week, next year, or later. We'll be 70 when the CR-V is 12 years old, and I expect any car we buy around age 70 will last the rest of our driving lives. The car my Mom bought in 1999 at age 73 is her last, and she puts only a few thousand miles on it a year. If it died tomorrow, she'd stop driving (she should do so soon anyway).
>>



Personally, I think people buy a new car too late in life which doesn't get used much. That's a waste unless you really want to spend for cars.

Keep the old jalopy in the garage and your money in the bank is my bias.


Seattle Pioneer
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