Note: In that this is not copyrighted material, and in that this rant by a Teslan who is presently deprogramming who says his first post of this rant was removed by a moderator on the Tesla Motors forum in reddit, I'm going to repost the entire rant here for dis-believing Longs who do not understand the groundswell of dis-satisfaction by Tesla owners is taking its toll on this company's brand and image.I am going to highlight bits of his rant, but I will say this first: this guy is the kind of person who needs to try an Advanced Prius Plug-In Hybrid. In town, I'm getting 1200 to 1600 miles on one tank (11.3 gallons) of gasoline. There are days I could do my errands with the gas engine never kicking in, except, where I live, I crank the A/C because of the humidity during Summer months. On the highway I'm averaging about 54 to 60 MPGe. And as shown this week, Ford's new Explorer hybrid is due for model year 2020, and the F-150 hybrid will be a bit longer. https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/ahoby6/a_tesla...From getting rid of the Tesla referral program (fair), to cutting 3,000 American jobs (shite!), to announcing a 33% increase in supercharging (come on!), this has not been a good week for Tesla owners, and potential owners. The echo chamber is loud here, we need to realize why the cut in staff and the increase in supercharging is a much greater issue than the apologists here will claim. I understand that layoffs can be considered a temporary setback, in order to keep Tesla’s mission of sustainable transportation alive, but the loss of 3,000 employees while Tesla’s customer support and service are a disaster, doesn’t exactly inspire consumer confidence (“humans are underrated”). The increase in supercharging just comes off as greedy, and will have consequences that many people are overlooking.Assuming 3 kWh costs $1, and you gain an optimum efficiency of 3 miles/kWh, you're getting 27 miles for the price of a gallon of gas…this is if driving in ideal conditions. What’s this equal out to? You went from getting a full charge for $15 (which was already pricey in comparison to charging at home) to $25. $25 for 260 – 300 miles is not the gas saving advantage that Tesla loved to claim. We went from Elon stating that supercharging would always be free, to having it limited to S and X models, to limiting it to S and X models built before a certain time, to making it a paid service for all, don’t be surprised to see charging rates increase in the future.I purchased a Mid Range with the intention of having it for all my driving purposes, to enjoy driving it everywhere from my daily commute, to summer vacation road trips. One of its main selling points, and justifications for purchasing such an expensive car, was the massive advantage in cost savings for fuel and maintenance. Now that it costs more to fuel up than a car that has a 30MPG estimate, while also having the disadvantage of waiting 40 – 60 minutes for a full charge, what incentive do I have to take it on road trips? Had I known a price cut was coming around immediately after my purchase, I would’ve held off on buying the car, or in hindsight, bought the Long Range model to charge up an additional 60 miles at home.I’ve seen plenty of people argue that the majority of owners will charge at home at a significantly cheaper rate, while this is true and most certainly applies to my lifestyle, I feel that the reactions to this price increase really reflects the distorted perception that many users on this sub seem to have…this belief that everyone should own a house, and that if you don’t then you shouldn’t be buying a Tesla (I saw some responses saying “just get solar!”, as if an additional $40,000 to install solar is a practical solution to a 33% supercharging increase). This is a gatekeeping tactic that won’t help expand the advancement of EVs. EVs need to be accessible and affordable to people with middle to low incomes, it’s never going to reach those markets if a McMansion is required for ownership. The Middle class is your bread and butter, this is why there are still hundreds of thousands reservations waiting for the $35,000 base model. $35,000 is pricey as it is, but the market showed that people were willing to take that hit for a car that promised so much. From my own personal experience I was waiting for that base model as well, but ended up buying the Mid Range model to take advantage of the state and federal incentives that will likely be gone by the time the base model finally rolls out.I’m an owner, and might have to deal with the price increase, but I strongly encourage people to make a bigger deal about this, because it IS a big deal. Let’s hope Tesla reconsiders their pricing structure for the sake of maximizing their customer base. It’s easy for us to say “just deal with it” because we’ve already bought the car, but think about how many future buyers will be thwarted once they come to the realization that taking trips over 300 miles is not going to be a financial advantage. The people who have already spent $50k - $70k on their premium models, do not have the same lifestyles of the people waiting on a $35k model.
#2 Another Teslan adds his thoughts in his own OP:https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/ahnunj/superch...r/teslamotors•Posted byu/Tm3overcpoanydayModel 1 day agoSupercharging: a discussion on the intent and the consequences of its cost.AutomotiveSupercharging is a compelling part of the tesla brand. It opens up long distance travel to the electric car and makes Tesla different from its competitors to date.This advantage is based on the idea that superchargers will be available along major routes of travel and would allow fast charging to enable gaining 50% state of charge in minutes.However Tesla has chosen to implement access to their supercharging network in a way that discourages this type of access to be easily available. First, by having free supercharging access available for so long, many superchargers are being used by individuals who have an incentive (saving money) to use the supercharging network when they may have alternative methods of charging available (home or work).Now tesla has raised the price of pay per use supercharging to rival the price of gas in many areas of the United States. For me, it will now cost less to use my old ICE vehicle for long distance travel. I will also not have to wait for my car to charge nor have to wait in a queue of people to get to a supercharger on trips.In other words, these two decisions at partially negate Tesla's early advantage and may make individuals who are considering switching to tesla to take pause. At the very least it will further encourage the use of ice vehicles for long distance travel.
#3 One of the unique selling propositions put forth by Musk early on was how someone could travel cross country in a Tesa on freely supplied recharge energy.Well, here's another tale from the Supercharger:https://twitter.com/rstocking/status/1087024198583836673@rstocking@Tesla, what’s the deal with this new charging rate? I received 19 miles of range so far and the fee is already $3.00. That is more than gas!!! Just wanted a bit more juice before heading out on a long drive. Hmmm....2:28 PM - 20 Jan 2019
Do you really think that spewing this nonsense is going to influence anyone. Long since you have been dubbed a grayling because of people who have put you on ignore and who don't even read anything you post. I only read some of it because it is annoying to come here expecting to find new posts, only to find that every one is grayed out. Occasionally, I will feel motivated to throw something back, but frankly, most posts I don't even read because it is obviously the same old anecdote after anecdote. You might find it interesting to search out some equivalent channels to see how many people complain about other marques, often with as little substance. I mean, really, who goes to a supercharger for 19 miles of range?
Now I am accused of spewing nonsense as the evidence mounts against the misplaced eternal optimism that Musk and Tesla are saving the planet while you save money driving one of their cars. It's a shame, as tamhas looked like he was just beginning to deprogram.https://twitter.com/Trumpery45/status/108715640075560140811:14 PM - 20 Jan 2019
I mean, really, who goes to a supercharger for 19 miles of range? No idea if it’s common, but I do on occasion (although I have yet to get charged) as long as it’s enough to get home. But it’s rare enough that I wouldn’t care for the charge of a few bucks.I don’t know if Tesla will keep honoring the promise of a lifetime of free charging for people who bought in early. But whichever way, I don’t think anyone could reasonably expect the SuperCharger stations to remain free forever. Regardless the exact rate charged, I find it hard to imagine getting another EV simply because I wouldn’t be able to make longer trips with it without being annoyed by hours long recharging stops.Maybe the Jag, the Porsche or the VW are nice. But without the supporting charging network they won’t replace a Tesla. But this could change in a few years, the competition has certainly gone from dismissive to being well aware of the existential threat Tesla poses if left unchecked in a surprisingly short span.Mark
Mark, I gave you a rec for your honesty.
Mark, the other thing must be factored in for supercharger stress is the wait time. Not only in lines at some of the busiest locations, but also the recharge times which vary for the same car in different locales and at different temperatures.Check out this woman's wait time for a recharge on her cellphone app shot from inside her Tesla at a supercharger:https://twitter.com/megahanmama/status/1087121516813320198@megahanmam @megahanmama#TeslaProblems when we bought this car we were told supercharging would take 20 minutes. Why is this showing 1 hour and 10 minutes to charge?@Tesla8:55 PM - 20 Jan 201914 Retweets 48 Likes 25 replies 14 retweets 48 likesReply 25 Retweet 14 Like 48
Mark, the other thing must be factored in for supercharger stress is the wait time. Not only in lines at some of the busiest locations, but also the recharge times which vary for the same car in different locales and at different temperatures.Check out this woman's wait time for a recharge on her cellphone app shot from inside her Tesla at a supercharger:https://twitter.com/megahanmama/status/1087121516813320198@megahanmam @megahanmama#TeslaProblems when we bought this car we were told supercharging would take 20 minutes. Why is this showing 1 hour and 10 minutes to charge?@Tesla You know, you’ve been told countless times here the value of anecdotes.Let me try to give some perspective, as a last-ditch effort. I’m pretty sure nobody told this woman the car would charge fully in 20 min. But whatever, people post whatever they imagined to be the truth. Secondly, yes, it does happen when you plug into a super-charger that it initially says it will take over an hour. It’s a bit like downloading a big file. When you start, the download time will jump up and down, sometimes varying from 10 minutes to 3 days. However, after a few minutes it usually settles on the normal 30 min. it’s really going to take. Same thing with charging.I have never waited more than 40 min. to go from 10% to 90% for my 75Kwh. The last 10%, if you really need it to reach your next stop, takes a disproportionally longer time. So yeah, occasionally it takes more than the advertised average of 45 min. for a full charge. For anyone who cares to find out this is common knowledge. But that will not stop people who don’t care to read any manual to bitsh about it on Twitter. Especially those unfamiliar with the concept of average . Tell them to try charging at ChargePoint next time, see how long it would take to charge any other EV. (Hint: it’s 5 to 6 times longer.)Mark
Easy, easy. You just reported you take 40 minutes going from 10% to 90% at a supercharger. Now think if you were in, say, North Dakota, Toronto, Buffalo and you needed to recharge. How much slower would that be?And for every negative anecdote I post, there must be 10 or 20x more Teslans holding back their complaints because "they don't want to hurt the brand" or they are so gutless they cannot take on a crowd who want to brand them heretic, a non-believer, an outcast, a pariah, and be urged to turn in their Teslas.I have never seen more wannabe bullies than the crowd on this board and other Teslan forums. Its like 99% of male Teslans have been cuckholded by this "save the brand which is saving the planet" nonsense. Seriously, reading posts from beta males on Tesla forums all over the internet makes me wonder "where do they come from and can we keep our daughters and nieces from ever falling for one of these weaklings?"So you want more anecdotes? You'll get them. I'll keep bringing them on. Sooner or later, you might connect some dots and learn there are no isolated events for bad experiences from Tesla. They are everywhere. They are on your monitor, your TV, you cellphone, and especially piled up under your rugs.
So you want more anecdotes?No, we want data. It is well known that really draining the battery means it takes longer to charge, duh? It is well known that if you want to charge that last 10% it takes disproportionately longer... physics. It is well known that some chargers operate at high power than others ... and there is a new higher power coming. It is well known that occasionally a charger may not be operating up to full capacity ... like practically anything. But, it is also well known that most other types of chargers are vastly slower and there is a far less complete network.An anecdote is simply an illustration of these principles. Data would be some demonstration that these principles don't apply ... and there are millions of miles of driving experience to show that the do apply, so you have your work cut out for you.
o you want more anecdotes? You'll get them. Sigh. Noooo, you really don’t get it, we don’t want more anecdotes. I’m sure there are dozens more. On hundreds of thousands of cars, we’re still talking meaningless numbers. But the numbers are enough that you’re clogging up the board. So if you still insist on posting every little bit of negativity you can find, most of the time not substantiated by any meaningful information, then yes you’ll find yourself on everyone’s ignore list pretty fast.Mark
Long since you have been dubbed a grayling because of people who have put you on ignore and who don't even read anything you post.That includes me. It isn't as effective as I would hope because so many (half?) the remaining messages are responses to the grayling.
So if you still insist on posting every little bit of negativity you can find, most of the time not substantiated by any meaningful information, then yes you’ll find yourself on everyone’s ignore list pretty fast.MarkI am surprised at the level of denial going on about the situation surrounding TSLA. You don't have to read a word from ThomF about the company to learn about how bad the situation is. The news is 'EVERYWHERE'. It is definitely not "every little bit of negativity".Kinda reminds me of the retrospective info on folks like Enron, Worldcom-Bernie Ebbers, Bernie Madoff, ZZZZ Best Inc Barry Minkow, Tyco International, et al. Look'em up here:https://www.investopedia.com/articles/00/100900.aspExcept, in the case extant we have here with TSLA, WE CAN SEE IT NOW, IN REAL TIME. The fraud is so bad, our minds put it in the category of "This is NOT real world. It CAN NOT be this bad!" The above cited frauds happened largely behind the curtains, and their level of fraud wasn't obvious until after they hit the fan. TSLA's scam is somewhat different. Like an ongoing soap opera on TV, with daily installments.
If you thought you'd miraculously have credibility despite just being another anonymous conspiracy sounding whistle-blower, you blew it when you referenced Enron.
Only, it isn't like that at all. Over and over and over again there will be press or tweets or whathaveyou about Tesla that are, at best, anecdote or worse, cherry picking, or even falsities. E.g., every fatal accident with a Tesla gets headline news, but the comparative safety record receives little attention while other, more conventional vehicles, receives no press at all about safety records unless something proceeds as far as a recall ... some of which have been horrific. Similarly, if an exuberant Musk forecasts X by Y any miss will receive big headlines even if it was X - 5 or Y + 1 and no one thought that X/4 was achievable by Y when the forecast was issued.People keep using this word "fraud" and yet what exactly has been promised that has not been delivered? To be sure, some things are reasonably still in the future, like full self-driving, but no reasonable person expected them by now in the first place ... especially considering the limited successes of other players in that space. How is it fraudulent to have achieved sales levels that are not only dwarfing other marques in similar price range, but exceeding half a dozen of them combined? Seems like a roaring success rather than some fraud.What we have on one side is record sales, dramatic growth, and profitability, i.e., things one can actually see and measure in market figures and SEC filings and on the other side we have tweets of isolated incidents of dubious veracity. To be sure, some of them are almost certainly real ... one doesn't produce that many cars without some problems and one doesn't grow that dramatically without expecting a certain number of growing pains where the mechanism for taking care of X was adequate a year ago and wholly inadequate to the volume we have today. And, yes, they need to do better on such things, but there is every indication that the company is aware of the issues and working on solutions and accomplishing a great deal since there are also record number of happy customers. One does not achieve that by fraud.
Let's see. Tesla raised supercharger prices 33%. Today, Tesla forums where the complaints on this raise lit up the this past weekend, Teslans are declaring some kind of phyrric victory as Tesla just backed down on the price rise by 10%.10% of 33% is 3.3%.So Tesla is only raising supercharger prices 29.7% not the full 33%.Congrats, Folks, on another WIN in saving money while you save Musk's five mansions, his jet planes, and his Hollywood lifestyle.
I can talk to Tesla economics in CA, where I live.The current rate for SuperChargering is a flat $0.28/kWh across most of the US (https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharging). (In some US regions, companies that aren't utilities can't sell power that way, so Tesla has a two tier time-based charge.)A Tesla Model 3 gets about 4 miles per kWh in the real world. So, that's $0.07/mile when supercharging. Gas prices in CA run up to and over $4/gal today (at the high end in the Bay Area, where I live). Even if you use AAA's current CA average rate of $3.25/gallon, you'd need a 46MPG car to equal the SuperCharger rate in CA.I mostly charge at home. Even in high priced CA, I pay about $0.09 - $0.11 per kW to charge overnight. That's $0.0275 per mile, so I'd need better than a 118MPG car to equal that. And all this is before accounting for the price of oil and filter changes, smog certification every 2 years, etc. This isn't the first time Tesla has raised SuperCharger rates. The last time was in March 2018 (https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/12/tesla-raised-supercharge... ). Of course, the bears will attack Tesla either way. Either the price for SuperCharging is too high so it's not as economical for owners, or the price is too low, so it eats into TSLA's profit. Too bad they can't argue against SuperCharging as being and remaining a huge sales advantage for Tesla. My overall fueling (and running and TCO) costs are far lower for my Model 3 than for the previous BMW 3-series I've owned.
And all this is before accounting for the price of oil and filter changes, smog certification every 2 years, etc. Are you saying the maintenance of your Tesla costs less than that of an ICE car? I know in theory that should be true, but in reality Tesla charges a hefty fee for servicing. I got the $4,000 - 8 year servicing package, which they don’t offer anymore. But $500/year for servicing is not exactly cheap and all paid up-front.Me thinks your model 3 hasn’t been serviced yet...I’m in agreement with regards to fuel cost though, by my calculation I save about $150/mo.Mark
the Tesla servicing is optional and not doing it does not effect the car warranty. Or car reliability as far as I can tell, and I have had my S nearly 5 years now...
Me thinks your model 3 hasn’t been serviced yet...Nobody's has (or at least not many). The maintenance schedule is every two years or 25,000 miles.Here's the schedule for all three Tesla models: https://www.tesla.com/support/car-maintenanceI think the Model S service is a bit expensive, but they do a variety of extra things. Most important is that they install various hardware improvements that they deem important enough. No charge. At one annual service (I go by year since if I went by mileage I'd be going in every 6 months) they listened to a whine I asked about and replaced my drive unit, no charge. In fact they reduced the cost of the annual service itself since replacing the drive unit meant they didn't need to do the battery coolant replacement. Nice!So while they do say that service is optional, I don't think it's a good idea to ignore it for too long. I would definitely take it in after four years at the outside, even if I'd driven it lightly.-IGU-(yes, ownership cost after purchase is way cheaper than a comparable ICE)(the most expensive regular cost is tires)
My 2014 s p85 with 23000 miles stopped superchargng. $2400 repair not considered part of engine and drivetrain. In the alternative i was allowed to give tesla $4750 for 4 year extended warranty. People who say tesla is cheap to maintain are puzzling to me.
Ralph, again, I salute your honesty.It's not only the expense, it's the inability to get parts or service in a timely fashion.Time is money. Life's too short to be wasting in voice jail with a service center.In the UK, there are about two-dozen Model X owners hopping mad because their cars, not even two-years old, have been waiting months, and a few a year or more, for heating core parts. I placed 14 of those complaints on this board when I first arrived here. That list of original owners has grown to two-dozen now.Try driving a car in the UK during Winter with no heater.And yet members of the UK Tesla Club are doing just that.
My 2014 s p85 with 23000 miles stopped superchargng. $2400 repair not considered part of engine and drivetrain. In the alternative i was allowed to give tesla $4750 for 4 year extended warranty. People who say tesla is cheap to maintain are puzzling to me.Well, to begin with repair is not quite the same as maintenance. But that aside, your particular repair is rather unusual and fairly expensive. The price of the four year extended warranty seems fair. I expect that over the four years it covers you will spend only that on repairs, and you will spend maybe as much as $3000 total on annual service. Where does that fall in comparison to other cars? Do you consider that cheap, expensive, or what?As an aside, note that your vehicle, low mileage and not generally used for long distance travel before you acquired it, probably rarely supercharged. What you saw was likely an early life part failure, but in the case of this car it happened after the initial four year warranty had expired. I'd wager that almost all such failures happened to others in 2014 and 2015; you are just seeing it now because it's such a low mileage car. How hard did you push back on service to investigate whether it was a historically common defective part failure? Or maybe they did think that and just needed you to be under warranty to replace it free of charge?-IGU-
As an aside, note that your vehicle, low mileage and not generally used for long distance travel before you acquired it, probably rarely supercharged. What you saw was likely an early life part failure, but in the case of this car it happened after the initial four year warranty had expired. I'd wager that almost all such failures happened to others in 2014 and 2015; you are just seeing it now because it's such a low mileage car. How hard did you push back on service to investigate whether it was a historically common defective part failure? Or maybe they did think that and just needed you to be under warranty to replace it free of charge?-IGU-Maybe, just maybe, you might investigate the thousands of complaints about Teslas which make his problems look like a link in a chain of the same problems. Get off your butt and connect some links showing how there are similar problems being repeated all over social media.Wait, who am I talking to? IGU the Deceiver? Waste of time.
Best Of |
Favorites & Replies |
Start a New Board |
My Fool |