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A little fact checking goes a long way...

"At her age, she's eligible for a good "silver" plan for $333 a month after the subsidy -- $40 a month more than she's paying now. But the plan is much better than her current plan -- the deductible is $2,000, not $5,000. The maximum out-of-pocket expense is $6,350, not $8,500. Her co-pays would be $45 for a primary care visit and $65 for a specialty visit -- but all visits would be covered, not just two."

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-debunked-20...
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"The sad truth is that Cavallaro has been very poorly served by the health insurance industry and the news media. It seems that Anthem didn't adequately explain her options for 2014 when it disclosed that her current plan is being canceled. If her insurance brokers told her what she says they did, they failed her. And the reporters who interviewed her without getting all the facts produced inexcusably shoddy work -- from Maria Bartiromo on down. They not only did her a disservice, but failed the rest of us too."

This is sort of the same deal as the folks Hannity had on his show: In each case, a bit of fact-checking found that most hadn't even bothered to do their own homework.

The first story is often wrong, but it becomes "truth" by repetition. Sadly, the corrections are usually buried.

Speck
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after the subsidy

___________

So she's getting money someone else earned to cover her health care...that's not making it affordable, that's shifting the financial burden. Someone else is paying more so she can get that plan.

What happens when the money for subsidies run out?

And this doesn't debunk anything. It's the same as showing someone seeing their insurance double debunks the Obama myth of saving $2,500. Individual stories are just that. My premiums doubled, does that tell the entire O-care story? Of course...but it tells my reality.
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Yep!

Progressives see this as fair!
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"My premiums doubled, does that tell the entire O-care story? Of course...but it tells my reality."

My guess is that there is much more to your story than you let on. I have yet to find a credible "my premiums doubled because of Obamacare", once the whole story comes out.
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Bartiromo is useless. Her next intelligent comment will be her first.

CNBC is controled by people who hate Obama. The talking heads just say their lines.
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Once again cbj perpetuates the myth. What happens when she goes for emergency care and her insurance won't cover it. She is destroyed financially and taxpayers pick up the difference anyway. Of course we could follow the Republican solution nad let her die untreated. That is the market answer.
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I think you caught a liar, nigel. I doubt the liar will give us any verifiable facts.
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Bartiromo is useless.

Agreed.

She is a terrible interviewer.

She is the worst.
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My guess is that there is much more to your story than you let on. I have yet to find a credible "my premiums doubled because of Obamacare", once the whole story comes out.

_________

Then you're not paying attention...it's all over the news. People seeing rates jump well over 99%...my doubling is over a two year period.

Just google "Obamacare rate shock" and you'll see articles about from CBSNews, Huff and Puff, CNN and other Obama apologists.

Just because you refuse to accept it, doesn't mean it's not happening.

Insurance costs to soar under Obamacare

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505144_162-57604782/

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57609534/policy-cance...

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/conncarroll/2013/10/31/debunkin...
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"What happens when she goes for emergency care and her insurance won't cover it. She is destroyed financially and taxpayers pick up the difference anyway."

Bogus. No truth what so ever.
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Nigel ONLY sees or hears what he wants to to support his narrative. Ignore him.
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You have one anecdotal planted story after another. Every time someone digs in you find that the story is bogus.
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Nigel ONLY sees or hears what he wants to to support his narrative. Ignore him.

_________

That sums up the next election or two...it will be those who have been screwed by O-care vs those that have been helped by it. Whichever group is larger is going to win. And chances are those that have been screwed by it will be more motivated to vote. People who are content don't exactly rush out to vote during mid-terms.
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Only people who get subsidies will get plans close to equal of what they had before on costs and deductibles.

But...

Everyone else who doesn't get a subsidy will have their premiums double, their deductibles dowble, for equal of less coverage than they had before obamacare.

So is this really the defense the left wants to use? Use subsidized people as proof? lol...

FYI- the people hurt the most by Obamacare are middle class (cost will double) and young cost will triple or more.
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"Then you're not paying attention...it's all over the news. People seeing rates jump well over 99%...my doubling is over a two year period."

What I am saying is that those stories do not hold up under scrutiny. My example was one of many. If your rates doubled, there is a reason - and it wasn't ObamaCare.



"Just google "Obamacare rate shock" and you'll see articles about from CBSNews, Huff and Puff, CNN and other Obama apologists.

Just because you refuse to accept it, doesn't mean it's not happening."

I've seen them. See above.



"Insurance costs to soar under Obamacare"

Predictions of disaster are common. Facts are rare.
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So she's getting money someone else earned to cover her health care...that's not making it affordable, that's shifting the financial burden. Someone else is paying more so she can get that plan.

That is the definition of insurance.

There is one group of people paying $150/month each in premiums.

Sub-group A incurs costs LESS than $150/month.

Sub-group B incurs costs GREATER than $150/month.

Group A subsidizes Group B--EVERY time.
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"What I am saying is that those stories do not hold up under scrutiny. My example was one of many. If your rates doubled, there is a reason - and it wasn't ObamaCare.

"

Because Nigel has scrutinized each and every one of them. Nigel is VERY thorough in his research, since he doesn't work while living off the government.
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So she's getting money someone else earned to cover her health care...that's not making it affordable, that's shifting the financial burden. Someone else is paying more so she can get that plan.
___________________________________________

To the person you responded to

Hey stupid, it is not affordable to you, if you need someone else to pay for it

That is welfare not affordable health care.
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Bartiromo is useless.

Agreed.

She is a terrible interviewer.

She is the worst.
______________________________

AKA the loser B is not a consistent liberal, let's string her up
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"That is the definition of insurance.

There is one group of people paying $150/month each in premiums.

Sub-group A incurs costs LESS than $150/month.

Sub-group B incurs costs GREATER than $150/month.

Group A subsidizes Group B--EVERY time.
"

You are FULL of it!! Too funny.
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What I am saying is that those stories do not hold up under scrutiny. My example was one of many. If your rates doubled, there is a reason - and it wasn't ObamaCare.

____________

Of course those stories do, thus why I even linked to a story called "Debunking the Debunkers"...of course it's Obamacares fault. It's increases the burden that employers, insurance companies and others have to deal with. It increased over 100 taxes on people. That money doesn't come out of thin air. It passed on to the consumer.

Obamacare did nothing to lower the cost, just shift the burden. Heck if you have a great plan from your employer it's taxed as "cadiallac plan"...guess who pays that tax? The employee. The tax is passed on to them.
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"That is the definition of insurance."

Some folks have award time understanding the idea behind a shared risk pool.
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"Some folks have award time understanding the idea behind a shared risk pool."

Nigel displaying his ignorance Again.
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"Some folks have award time understanding the idea behind a shared risk pool. "

You really need to drop this "one pot" ideology.

If you have good credit you should be better rates
If you are healthy you should get better rates
If you are a safe driver you should get better rates
etc.
etc.
etc.

What you are claiming is it doesn't matter how "you" are, everyone should pay the same, which is flat out unfair and dumb.
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"Only people who get subsidies will get plans close to equal of what they had before on costs and deductibles."

Insurance is already a giant subsidy plan. Everyone in the pool pays in. Those that put in claims pull some out. If you don't use it, you have subsidized everyone else in the pool. That is how it works.

What you have today is many folks getting subsidized by the rest of the taxpayers because they have no or insufficient insurance to cover their care - but society still has to care for them.
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"What you are claiming is it doesn't matter how "you" are, everyone should pay the same, which is flat out unfair and dumb."

I never said anything remotely like that, sorry.
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"Some folks have award time understanding the idea behind a shared risk pool."

Nigel displaying his ignorance Again.
__________________________________________

I did not think it possible

But even for that poster this is a new level of ignorance, I hope that ACA will help, because well, whhhhhhewwwww!
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"Insurance is already a giant subsidy plan. "

Wil someone please straighten out Nige. He is embarassing himself again.
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"Insurance is already a giant subsidy plan. Everyone in the pool pays in. Those that put in claims pull some out. If you don't use it, you have subsidized everyone else in the pool. That is how it works.

What you have today is many folks getting subsidized by the rest of the taxpayers because they have no or insufficient insurance to cover their care - but society still has to care for them. "

That doesn't answer the question on why people who don't get subsidies have to pay double what they did before.
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Some folks have award time understanding the idea behind a shared risk pool.

__________

But usually higher risk people pay more. Car insurance charges the guy with multiple accidents more than the guy with a perfect driving record. Health insurance used to charge you more if you were high risk. I get that I should have to pay for someone's breast cancer treatment since they might pay for my testitcular cancer if I ever get it...You can't treat everyone as equal because not everyone is. Should smokers get the same rate? What about drinkers? Overweight people? Forget about genetic diseases, should a healthy 185 pound person be treated the same as a 350 pounder?
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"That doesn't answer the question on why people who don't get subsidies have to pay double what they did before."

I have yet to see one of those 'double' stories that actually turns out to be true, but I have no doubt that some folks will pay more than they have been. But that has been true for decades…health care costs have been rising dramatically for many years.

Some will pay more, some will pay less.
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"But usually higher risk people pay more."

They should. Are you saying that is no longer true?
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I have yet to see one of those 'double' stories that actually turns out to be true.

________

Then pull your head out of the sand.
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What I am saying is that those stories do not hold up under scrutiny. My example was one of many. If your rates doubled, there is a reason - and it wasn't ObamaCare.

____________

"Of course those stories do, thus why I even linked to a story called "Debunking the Debunkers"…


Trouble with that - if you read it, it doesn't really debunk anything I said. It says things like "Yes, she now has unlimited doctor visits, but the co-pay is higher on the first two visits, and maybe Cavallaro only sees the doctor once a year." Maybe?

Or this; "The deductible and out-of-pocket limits are both lower under Obamacare, but not wildly so."

Really?

Yes, some folks will pay more, no doubt. Some will pay less. Again, I have yet to find one of those 'my premiums doubled' stories that turns out to be true - one you know all the facts. Maybe there are some, but I have my doubts…
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I have yet to see one of those 'double' stories that actually turns out to be true.

________

"Then pull your head out of the sand."


Do you have one that is actually true?
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"Then pull your head out of the sand."


Do you have one that is actually true?

__________

I have mine, but without posting pay stubs, you won't believe it. (paystubs are what working people get).

I have posted Kaiser Studies, HHS Reports, Reports from Aetna, USHealthcare and BlueCross...news stories from CNN, CBS and Huff and Puff...not sure what other proof you need?
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But usually higher risk people pay more.

Because there is REAL ADDITIONAL risk of a payout--so charging more makes sense.

Car insurance companies say your credit rating is an important indicator of your having a claim. Since the statement is made, what specific factor between car driving and your credit score makes that true? Nothing. The theory of good students being better drivers is rational and is easily provable with logic. But no evidence (i.e. THIS causes THAT so the person will CAUSE more accidents AND ALSO create lower credit score for that person).

The problem is simple: It fails at the HIGH end of the credit score range. HIGHEST credit scores have MORE claims--which contradicts the theory of fewer claims with ever-higher credit scores. FICO refuses to comment on it because it is merely a statistical fluke that can be exploited for profit--by both FICO and the insurance companies. And they do not want to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs....
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I have mine, but without posting pay stubs, you won't believe it. (paystubs are what working people get).

I have posted Kaiser Studies, HHS Reports, Reports from Aetna, USHealthcare and BlueCross...news stories from CNN, CBS and Huff and Puff...not sure what other proof you need?

---

I'd be interested to see just one example of someone seeing premiums double that can be linked directly to Obamacare. You know, with all the relevant information, such as coverages, visit limitations, deductibles, etc. Hard to make any valid analysis otherwise.

I'm not saying it does't exist, I just haven't seen one yet.
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Only people who get subsidies will get plans close to equal of what they had before on costs and deductibles.

But...

Everyone else who doesn't get a subsidy will have their premiums double, their deductibles dowble, for equal of less coverage than they had before obamacare.


False.

http://boards.fool.com/my-obamacare-experience-30930626.aspx...
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I have mine, but without posting pay stubs, you won't believe it.

Your cost PLUS your employer's cost doubled? Or only your cost? Those are two very different statements.

If the total cost doubled in an employer sponsored group plan, I suspect that it is either because your previous coverage was minimal and did not come close to ACA requirements, or your employer's group plan claim history has been extremely bad (or some combination of the two).
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Your cost PLUS your employer's cost doubled? Or only your cost? Those are two very different statements.

______________

That's a fair question...mine doubled, our HR department said their paying more, but disclose how much. But as I mentioned many times...either way, it's MY costs that have gone up, and I now have less disposable income. And that $2,500 savings was clearly a lie.

As I've always written, personal reality always trumps everything else. Unemployment isn't an issue if you have a job, even when the unemployment rate was 10%. Conversely, you could be upset at 5% unemployment if you're one of the 5%.
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I'm not saying it does't exist, I just haven't seen one yet.

_______________

Maybe you're just not reading all the links that have been posted.
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I'm not saying it does't exist, I just haven't seen one yet.

_______________

"Maybe you're just not reading all the links that have been posted."

You posted a lot of stuff in other places, and I don't read every post. You haven't posted anything like what I described earlier - not in this thread. Do you have a case where people have seen their premiums double? With the relevant facts? If you do, I'd be very interested to see it.

Not interested in studies, forecasts, blogs, or fanciful stories. I keep seeing 'their premiums will double', but the facts never support the claim.
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But as I mentioned many times...either way, it's MY costs that have gone up, and I now have less disposable income. And that $2,500 savings was clearly a lie.

But if your costs have doubled merely because your employer is shifting more expense to you, it has nothing to do with the ACA and everything to do with a compensation decision by your employer. I'm afraid your personal example would count as debunked.

An example that makes this clear. My employer used to offer a "free" health insurance plan to its employees that made less than $XX,000 per year. Those who made more than $XX,000 per year paid something like $50 a month for the same plan. The plan cost the same for these two groups, but the employer expected those who made more than $XX,000 per year to share in some of the costs. Even though some employees didn't pay anything for their plan, it wasn't ever "free".

One year, well before the ACA was even passed, they decided to require employees making more than $XX,000 a year to increase their contribution to $100 per month. Considering that these employees were paying only a fraction of the price of the plans that they enjoyed, it would be incorrect to claim that costs of their plans "doubled", even if the amount they contributed did.
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"But if your costs have doubled merely because your employer is shifting more expense to you, it has nothing to do with the ACA and everything to do with a compensation decision by your employer. I'm afraid your personal example would count as debunked.

"
I have seen enough of the libs rationalization for the miserable failure of Obamacare web site and the president's lies about Obamacare to last a lifetime. It really is a pathetic performance from the beautiful people of PA.
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nigelwhalmsley wrote:
I keep seeing 'their premiums will double', but the facts never support the claim.

Here's the post where I claim that my premium will more than double (2.5x):
http://boards.fool.com/intercst-wrote-i-was-able-to-logon-to...

So far as I can tell that hasn't changed. No employer or subsidy involved. I get the same numbers looking today as I did then. Now if it turns out that I somehow earn less money than I expect to in 2014 (my retirement inflows are somewhat lumpy and unpredictable) then I might be eligible for a subsidy.

-IGU-
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So far as I can tell that hasn't changed. No employer or subsidy involved. I get the same numbers looking today as I did then. Now if it turns out that I somehow earn less money than I expect to in 2014 (my retirement inflows are somewhat lumpy and unpredictable) then I might be eligible for a subsidy.

-IGU-
________________

Quite honestly, I don't think you are going to like what they're sellin' (your plan options) to get that subsidy. Really.

I don't care what they say they cover, where you have to go to get that coverage and by whom is the real knife in the back.

Penny wise pound foollish
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....This is sort of the same deal as the folks Hannity had on his show: In each case, a bit of fact-checking found that most hadn't even bothered to do their own homework....

And remember that these people were hand picked by Hannity. Mike Huckabees "horror story" also turned out to be completely false. His "victim" turned out to be eligible for Medicaid but she just didn't want to take it. Too proud or something.

The plural of anecdote isn't data, to use a cliche. Most of the media is almost as lazy and incompetent as FOX "News". Probably safe to assume that most of these horror stories are either partly or completely untrue.
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[ nigelwhalmsley wrote:
I keep seeing 'their premiums will double', but the facts never support the claim. ]


"Here's the post where I claim that my premium will more than double (2.5x):So far as I can tell that hasn't changed. No employer or subsidy involved. I get the same numbers looking today as I did then. Now if it turns out that I somehow earn less money than I expect to in 2014 (my retirement inflows are somewhat lumpy and unpredictable) then I might be eligible for a subsidy."

It will be interesting to see what develops, but it sure looks like you are going to get hit. Ouch. Keep us posted. If it turns out to happen that way, yours will be the first I've seen that sounds legit.
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