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As promised, here's my response to your second article.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/south-carolina-election-bal...

Let's quote a bit from the article again.

South Carolina election officials may cut ties with the company they used, Minnesota printer SeaChange, over the mix-up after about 20 Charleston County absentee ballots were found outside the state, the reports say.

Election officials say this isn’t the first absentee ballot issue they’ve had with the company, which prints and mails ballots for 13 South Carolina counties.


The outside company SC election officials chose to print and mail absentee ballots messed up and sent 20 ballots to Maryland (for whom they apparently also offer a similar service).

Strangely, this isn't the first time this company has made a mistake with SC absentee ballots.

Some voters in Greenville County received the wrong absentee ballots when the Democratic presidential primary and the special election for sheriff were held just 10 days apart, Election Commission spokesman Chris Whitmire told the Post and Courier. Voters in Charleston received ballots that were folded in a way that made them tough to read by scanning machines.

So there are at least two prior mistakes made by this printing company.

One might ask how many times the SC election officials will allow this company to make mistakes before a new vendor is found?

So what was the upshot of this specific instance - ballots found in Maryland? Well ... ummm ... none. There were about 20 ballots involved. They ended up in the hands of Maryland election officials, who were kind enough to contact their counterparts in SC and return those ballots to SC. No actual fraud committed.

Here's another article, with some info from the MD side of things:
https://www.dailywire.com/news/south-carolina-absentee-ballo...

The ready-to-mail ballots have since made their way to Charleston-area voters, state and county election officials said ...

Again, your chosen article fails to support your assertion that there is wide-spread voter fraud with mail-in ballots.

--Peter
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Brilliant! California leads the way yet again.
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" Vote By Mail is Secure"

You paint with a very broad brush. Vote by mail...can be...secure, however there is no guarantee that it will be secure .. way too many opportunities and circumstances can get around the system.
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One thing important for people to keep in mind is that there are differences between vote-by-mail processes and more general electronic voting via computers at a polling place or via online portals.

A YouTube channel called Computerphile publishes short 10-20 minute summaries of various topics in the realm of computer hardware, software, algorithms, etc. One of their content creators, a Brit named Tom Scott, provided probably THE best explanation you will ever hear on why electronic voting is a bad idea back on December 18, 2004:

Why Electronic Voting is a BAD Idea
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_0x6oaDmI

It became a highly viewed clip on YouTube and he was bombarded with questions from people years later asking him to follow up, cuz surely things have gotten better, right? He posted an update on December 9, 2019:

Why Electronic Voting is Still a Bad Idea
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkH2r-sNjQs

The gist of his argument on why electronic voting is a bad idea boils down to these points...

The techniques for interfering / compromising with PHYSICAL (traditional paper ballot) voting don't scale well. You have physical ballots deployed to multiple locations which requires multiple people to conspire to alter those ballots or destroy them to make a material change in the result. Since it's difficult to assemble a large conspiracy ensure everyone involved doesn't leak the plan -- EVER -- it is unlikely an attempt to hack a physically based election can succeed.

The techniques for interfering / compromising with ELECTRONIC voting only require the wrong person with the wrong access to data collected FROM the process in order to change the result.

Here's a more subtle problem that can actually be unique to electronic voting. A key function of the secret ballot process is to ensure that after a ballot is cast, NO ONE from that point forward should be able to confirm that a particular ballot in the pile being counted is tied to a particular person. The legal goal of this is to ensure that people do not sell their vote for a candidate or issue and collect "proof" that they voted as "bought" in order to collect their reward. (Little known fact -- many states have poorly worded, confusing laws making it illegal to take a photograph of your ballot for this very reason.)

Any effort to provide a digital receipt back to an electronic voter they can use later to assure themselves their vote landed in the final "counted" pool exactly as they cast it might also be usable as a means of selling a vote and providing confirmation after the fact. Obviously, it depends on how much detail can be reverse engineered from the "receipt." If the receipt is just a digital hash of all of the individual choices plus a random key identifying the voter, the resulting hash will be random and the e-voter can verify that EXACT hash value appears in the "counted" pool via a web site -- mission accomplished. If that "receipt" hash maps backward to the original checkboxes on the ballot, then it violates the goal of making the link between a VOTER and specific ballot CHOICES untraceable.


WTH
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" Vote By Mail is Secure"

You paint with a very broad brush. Vote by mail...can be...secure, however there is no guarantee that it will be secure .. way too many opportunities and circumstances can get around the system.

Such as? "Way too many" is a pretty broad brush accusation. No specifics. From everything I have read, voting by mail IS very secure. There is almost zero evidence otherwise. Can you elaborate?

Bill Barr, while lying to Congress about various things, admitted here was no evidence of any significant at voter fraud using voting by mail. But he insisted that "common sense" told him that it might be. That isn't common sense. If the top law enforcement officer has zero evidence, common sense *should* tell you it likely isn't there at all.

So what are those opportunities and circumstances that you have in mind? Vote by mail has been done for years, btw.
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many states have poorly worded, confusing laws making it illegal to take a photograph of your ballot for this very reason

In the (way) olden days, the voting "booth" was sometimes a curtained-off corner in a schoolhouse, including a window so that there was light for marking the ballot -- and so that the voter who wanted a payoff could hold it to the window for a political hack to see.
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All you need do is look at Philadelphia where that election official was charged with voter fraud three years in a row.
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given that there is no ..chain of custody..of the ballots once they are put i to the mailbox alone tells you that they are available to be tampered with.
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All you need do is look at Philadelphia where that election official was charged with voter fraud three years in a row.

And how did he accomplish his fraud? Did he conspire with postal workers to intercept mail-in ballots and change them? Did he falsify the recording of mail-in ballots? Did he send mail-in ballots to people who didn't request them?

Nope. He didn't tamper with mail in ballots at all.

https://www.inquirer.com/news/voter-fraud-philadelphia-ward-...

DeMuro fraudulently stuffed the ballot box by literally standing in a voting booth and voting over and over, as fast as he could, while he thought the coast was clear.

But surely he must have fraudulently cast hundreds or thousands of ballots, right? That's what it takes to sway elections, doesn't it?

Sorry. Nope again. Same article:

In May 2014, DeMuro inflated vote totals by adding 27 fraudulent ballots in the primary election, 40 votes in May 2015, and 46 in 2016, according to court documents outlining the scheme and the charges against him.

He barely broke 100 ballots. Over 3 elections. Granted, that was a significant percentage of the total votes in that particular precinct. But Philadelphia had over 1700 polling places during the years in question. So it was a minute fraction of the total votes cast in the city.


To summarize, your example fails in multiple ways.

It was not mail-in ballots.

It was not wide spread.

It was not a broad, coordinated conspiracy, but one man acting alone at the behest of one political consultant. Technically, a conspiracy, since two people were involved.

It did not go unnoticed. He was caught and prosecuted.

I don't think anyone is claiming that there is zero voting fraud in any election. The claim is that there is no wide spread fraud, and does exist does not have a major impact on election results. This is just another example of fraud that, in the big picture, is immaterial.

Now, do you care to comment on the potential for fraudulent disenfranchisement of voters by, perhaps a candidate for a state-wide office who was also the person in charge of assigning polling places and certifying the results of the election?

--Peter
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Florida (Palm Beach County) is very similar to California. This is where Trump votes "by mail". It is not called absentee ballot.. instead, it is called "vote by mail".

After you have registered to vote, you can request to vote by mail. You can request to vote by mail for all elections for two years.

Here is how Florida (Palm Beach County explains it:

"vote-by-mail refers to voting a ballot received by mail or picked up by or for a voter instead of going to the polls to vote during early voting or election day. any registered voter can vote by mail. you can request a vote-by-mail ballot for a specific election or for all elections through the next two general elections. after two general elections, you'll need to make the request again.

a vote-by-mail ballot is not forwardable by the u.s. postal service and a ballot returned undeliverable cancels a request for future elections and must be renewed. notify us immediately if your mailing address changes, or if you plan to be out of town, we will send your ballot wherever you need to be. by law, special accommodations are available for military and overseas voters. "

The ballot you receive has its own "bar code" to identify each voter. It comes with a privacy sheet to put the ballot in. Once you complete your ballot, it needs to be signed on the outside and dated.

Like in California, you can track it. Right now, Florida will have a Primary on Aug 16th.. so my ballot tracking shows... ballot requested, ballot sent, ballot processed... waiting for tracking to show ballot counted ...

This is secure and it is what Trump does!

...as an aside... the website also encourages you to update your signature as it can change over the course of twenty years..

So, as can be seen, everything Trump says is a lie as he votes by mail in Florida..
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..I should have added that the signature is across the sealed portion ballot so if someone else tried to change the signature, it would be noted..

In addition, if the signature does not match, the Board of Election will contact you and have you update your signature to verify that it is you..
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"..I should have added that the signature is across the sealed portion ballot so if someone else tried to change the signature, it would be noted..
In addition, if the signature does not match, the Board of Election will contact you and have you update your signature to verify that it is you.."

That's nice....if the ballot is delivered..... given that there is no ...chain of custody...accountability for the ballot once dropped in the mail...anything or anybody can have access to these ballots.
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But what does Deg Debbie Wasserman say on the subject

https://710wor.iheart.com/featured/mark-simone/content/2020-...
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"..I should have added that the signature is across the sealed portion ballot so if someone else tried to change the signature, it would be noted..
In addition, if the signature does not match, the Board of Election will contact you and have you update your signature to verify that it is you.."

That's nice....if the ballot is delivered..... given that there is no ...chain of custody...accountability for the ballot once dropped in the mail...anything or anybody can have access to these ballots.

This is true of every mail in ballot - of which there are many. No one has come up with any evidence that the implied fraud happens. Having access to the ballots (stealing mail? Knocking over a mailbox? Holding up a mailman?) is pretty meaningless.
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https://www.npr.org/2020/07/01/885074932/n-j-election-fraud-...

But election law experts say that Trump's spotlight on the case also shows both how rare these kinds of cases are and the safeguards in place to protect the integrity of ballots.

Once again - the protection systems are in place. They catch attempted fraud.

-Peter
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"That's nice....if the ballot is delivered..... given that there is no ...chain of custody...accountability for the ballot once dropped in the mail...anything or anybody can have access to these ballots.

This is true of every mail in ballot - of which there are many. No one has come up with any evidence that the implied fraud happens. Having access to the ballots (stealing mail? Knocking over a mailbox? Holding up a mailman?) is pretty meaningless."

Meaningless, a person can not use a mailed in drug test result to get an airline captain or a Commercial captain boat license, or a lawyer enter a mailed in drug test result as evidence in a court case.....yet we are told that..without... a chain of custody accountability on Presidential ballots we can elect a President of the US.
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"Once again - the protection systems are in place. They catch attempted fraud"

What are the protection systems that are in place to insure that ...all...mailed in ballots are in fact delivered? Stories of undelivered mail or mailman dumped bags of mail are regularly reported for example. Without a chain of custody accountability on these ballots no one can say with any degree of accuracy or confidence that all mail entrusted to the mail system will be delivered as intended.
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No. of Recommendations: 15
boater tries to change the subject: Meaningless, a person can not use a mailed in drug test result to get an airline captain or a Commercial captain boat license, or a lawyer enter a mailed in drug test result as evidence in a court case.....yet we are told that..without... a chain of custody accountability on Presidential ballots we can elect a President of the US.

We're not talking about applying for a pilot's license. We're talking about voting. We've had mail-in voting for years. A number of states do mail-in voting exclusively. Trump mails his ballot in. With appropriate safeguards, mail-in voting is every bit as secure as other forms of voting--and perhaps more secure than some electronic forms that have no paper trail.

Look, everyone here knows perfectly well that Trump's attack on mail-in voting is a desperate attempt to suppress the vote in an election that is shaping up to be an historic defeat for him and for the GOP more broadly. Give it up.
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"boater tries to change the subject:"

Blah Blah Blah.... stick to the subject of ballot integrity. Giving the Job of POTUS is certainly more important than that of a Commercial captain or a lawyer pleading a case and should be done adhering to the same standards that these folks are held to.
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stick to the subject of ballot integrity.

Ok, doesn't a show of lack of judgement on Trump's part to vote by mail?
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What are the protection systems that are in place to insure that ...all...mailed in ballots are in fact delivered? Stories of undelivered mail or mailman dumped bags of mail are regularly reported for example.

Tell you what. Find a news article that reports a specific incidence of this problem - mailed ballots not being delivered - then we’ll discuss it.

—Peter
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boater flails Blah Blah Blah.... stick to the subject of ballot integrity.

Hilarious. You're the one who brought up pilot licenses, courtroom evidence, and whatnot.

I repeat: We've had mail-in voting for years. A number of states do mail-in voting exclusively. Trump mails his ballot in. With appropriate safeguards, mail-in voting is every bit as secure as other forms of voting--and perhaps more secure than some electronic forms that have no paper trail.

I can do this all day long.
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tell you what...tell me that you have ...never...heard of mail being dumped or undelivered by a mail person then maybe I'll consider your task.
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"With ... appropriate safeguards, ...mail-in voting is every bit as secure as other forms of voting--and perhaps more secure than some electronic forms that have no paper trail.

I can do this all day long."

Me too, please tell us about all of the ...appropriate safeguards ...that have been put in place for this Presidential election.
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please tell us about all of the ...appropriate safeguards ...that have been put in place for this Presidential election.

You can run a google search easily enough. They're the same safeguards that have been used for years--for decades, in some places. With the U.S. legacy system of running elections locally, the system is clearly imperfect. But, for the third time, security for mail-in ballots--with bar codes, signatures, paper trails, etc.--is at least as secure as other forms. Also, a lot of people (such as my wife and I just a few days ago for the Michigan statewide primary elections this Tuesday) drop their ballots in a secure drive-up dropbox rather than literally mail them in. The record of whether our ballots were received and counted is a public record. I can check it. Anyone can.

At the end of the day, Trump's argument (and yours) is pure obtuseness. Rather than allocate funds to enhance the security of mail-in voting in the teeth of a pandemic, Trump (and you) are doing everything possible to delegitimate and undermine it, with motives that are clear from a mile away. Shameful.

But it won't work. There will be extensive mail-in voting, as entirely appropriate. And Trump and the GOP will go down in a massive, and massively deserved, defeat in the election. Count on it.
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I wrote: "I can do this all day long."

boater wrote. "Me too."

Yeah. I'll bet you think that's workin' out really well.
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"There will be extensive mail-in voting, as entirely appropriate. And Trump and the GOP will go down in a massive, and massively deserved, defeat in the election. Count on it."

Maybe yes, maybe no. However, you still have not/can not say that the ballots with their bar codes and all will in fact be delivered on time or delivered at all.
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LOL, I know that you think you are making a difference, how is that working out for you ??
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I've thought that the best way to use computerized voting is to use the computers to print and mark the paper ballots. The paper ballot remains the one and only official ballot. But because the computer printed and marked the ballot, the computer can keep track of the votes cast using it and provide a tally quickly upon closing of the polling place. If desired, the paper ballots can be counted and that total used as the official tally.

It would still be up to the voter to assure that the printed marked ballot is indeed the ballot they wish to cast. And the printout should be such that the voter should be able to easily identify that the computer printed marking is legible as is as desired.

Because the ballots would all be computer printed and marked, they should also be fairly easy to scan by another computer and the markings read automatically. Plus, humans could still read them, if necessary, for manual recounts or for testing of the computerized process.

--Peter
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tell you what...tell me that you have ...never...heard of mail being dumped or undelivered by a mail person then maybe I'll consider your task.

You're the one claiming undelivered mail ballots are a problem. Prove it.

Scratch that, I'm not even asking you to prove undelivered mail ballots are a problem, I'm only asking you to provide a documented example. A single documented example. One lousy ballot. One. Documented.

If you can't provide a documented example of an undelivered mail ballot, your argument is nothing more than the bloviating of a fool.

--Peter
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I see that you are unwilling to say that you have never heard of undelivered/dumped/ late delivered mail. If that can happen to regular mail it an happen to Presidential ballots. It would seem that only a bloviating fool would not see that this is a possibility.
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If a person can go to the Liquor store and a protest they can make it to a voting booth.
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boater asks LOL, I know that you think you are making a difference, how is that working out for you ??

Well, right here I see a cumulative count of TWO recs for your arguments and SIXTY-FOUR for the counter-arguments. So I'd say it's working out just fine.

And in the real world, my organization and I have registered tens of thousands of voters (literally) and will be engaging in a massive voter-education and GOTV drive this fall in Detroit and throughout southeast Michigan. University of Michigan students will be doing the same.
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"Well, right here I see a cumulative count of TWO recs for your arguments and SIXTY-FOUR for the counter-arguments. So I'd say it's working out just fine."

A Conservative posting in a SJ echo chamber is lucky to get 2 recs. Fortunately the recs that count will come in November.
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"And in the real world, my organization and I have registered tens of thousands of voters (literally) and will be engaging in a massive voter-education and GOTV drive this fall in Detroit and throughout southeast Michigan. University of Michigan students will be doing the same. "
-----------------------

Thank You for that, MrFungi !

I'm talking to everybody ( that is rational ) that I know, to vote this
imbecilic wreck of a "man" out in November.
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I see that you are unwilling to say that you have never heard of undelivered/dumped/ late delivered mail.

No. I have never said that. You are - as is typical for people who can't make a cogent argument for their position - putting words in my mouth.

I have heard of undelivered/dumped/late delivered mail.

I have NOT heard of undelivered/dumped ballots. I have heard of late delivered ballots, but it is difficult to determine if that is the fault of the post office or the fault of voters for mailing the ballots late.

There. Does that make you happy?

Now provide a single documented case of deliberately undelivered or dumped or late delivered ballots from the USPS or shut up.

--Peter
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"Now provide a single documented case of deliberately undelivered or dumped or late delivered ballots from the USPS or shut up."

In the interests of fair and credible elections, the how and why legally cast ballots are not counted is irrelevant, not to even mention the illegally cast mail-in ballots of non-citizens voting. Here is just a small sample of voting irregularities associated with mail-in voting for your reading pleasure. If you can go to the Liquor store and go out to protest, then you can also go to the voting booth.


https://www.npr.org/2020/07/13/889751095/signed-sealed-undel...

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/south-carolina-election-bal...

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/04/24/28_mil...!

https://www.bizpacreview.com/2020/05/27/doj-charges-mail-car...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/oct/17/no-voter-fr...

https://ussanews.com/News1/2020/07/15/fraud-california-rejec...
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boater persists If you can go to the Liquor store and go out to protest, then you can also go to the voting booth.

And if the U.S. mail is safe enough to deliver my passport, GOES card, Medicare card, driver's license, tax return, tax refund, etc., etc., it's safe enough to deliver my vote.

Also, if anyone has a concern about mailing their "mail-in" ballot, in most places they can drop it directly into a secure dropbox.

PS: I wonder why you capitalized "Liquor" in two posts. Trump uses odd capitalizations, too. Must be some sort of Qanon code thing.

92 days
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If you can go to the Liquor store and go out to protest, then you can also go to the voting booth.

If Trump can go to the golf course, he can go to the voting booth, but instead he votes by mail. So if it's safe enough for him, then it's safe enough for the rest of America.

Unless he's an idiot.
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"And if the U.S. mail is safe enough to deliver my passport, GOES card, Medicare card, driver's license, tax return, tax refund, etc., etc., it's safe enough to deliver my vote.{

Maybe, maybe not. But it is clear that if it is safe to go on with the normal functions of life like shopping etc then it is safe enough to go to the voting booth.
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"And if the U.S. mail is safe enough to deliver my passport, GOES card, Medicare card, driver's license, tax return, tax refund, etc., etc., it's safe enough to deliver my vote."

At this point it's looking less a "safety" issue than an issue of overwhelming the bureaucracy of the USPS. The GOP and Trump are doing what they can to choke it to death with insufficient funding and manpower (including womanpower) and raise a crisis of confidence in its handling of this particular future workload.

The greatest threat since WW2 to the greatest nation on Earth is today's GOP and their fuhrer/leader Twitler.

Ken
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boater digs himself more deeply into a hole: if it is safe to go on with the normal functions of life like shopping etc then it is safe enough to go to the voting booth.

Maybe you and your main squeeze, The Donald, think that "the normal functions of life like shopping etc" are perfectly safe, but in many parts of the U.S. they absolutely are not, particularly for older people and ones with compromised health. That's due in no small part to the utter failure of leadership on his part.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've been inside a building other than my residence since mid-March. Fortunately, I've able to spend a great deal of time outdoors in isolation from others, including in my boat.

And I'll be voting by mail-in ballot in the November elections, as will many millions of Americans, notwithstanding the feckless whining of POTUS (Psychopath of the United States) or his fanboys.

His days are numbered, and that number is 92.
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Meaningless, a person can not use a mailed in drug test result to get an airline captain or a Commercial captain boat license, or a lawyer enter a mailed in drug test result as evidence in a court case.....yet we are told that..without... a chain of custody accountability on Presidential ballots we can elect a President of the US.


We are not talking about a drug test, we are talking about voting. There is not now and there never has been been a chain of custody requirement for mailed ballots.
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" There is not now and there never has been been a chain of custody requirement for mailed ballots."

No fooling. And that is the weakness with the process.
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"Maybe you and your main squeeze, .."

says one whose main squeeze is Slow Joe.
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If you can go to the Liquor store and go out to protest, then you can also go to the voting booth.

Wait a minute. Didn't Donny Boy inform us just the other day that we may have to delay the November elections because of the "China virus"? Would it be too much to ask you guys to get your story straight?

Asking for a large, and growing, majority of Americans.

92 days
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"Asking for a large, and growing, majority of Americans.
92 days"

LOL as they say, Be careful what you wish for.
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" There is not now and there never has been been a chain of custody requirement for mailed ballots."

No fooling. And that is the weakness with the process.

So, like Bill Barr, 'common sense' is telling you there's a problem for which there is ZERO evidence. That isn't really common sense. It's fantasy. Your first challenge is to find some evidence to support your theory. So far, there is virtually none, and mail in ballots have been widely used for many years.

You guys need to find another up which to bark.
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"So, like Bill Barr, 'common sense' is telling you there's a problem for which there is ZERO evidence. That isn't really common sense. It's fantasy. Your first challenge is to find some evidence to support your theory. So far, there is virtually none, and mail in ballots have been widely used for many years."


For your reading pleasure... Just a small sample of what is available to you.

https://boards.fool.com/quotnow-provide-a-single-documented-...
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"So, like Bill Barr, 'common sense' is telling you there's a problem for which there is ZERO evidence. That isn't really common sense. It's fantasy. Your first challenge is to find some evidence to support your theory. So far, there is virtually none, and mail in ballots have been widely used for many years."


For your reading pleasure... Just a small sample of what is available to you.

Most of these refer to ballots that arrived late or were undelivered. Nothing to do with fraudulent voting. For one of your links;

"Although there is no evidence that the millions of missing ballots were used fraudulently..."

Is this why Trump trying to slow down the USPS?

In another one, there were a grand total of 7 ballots that appeared to have been altered. 7. And they were caught.

Fact is, it remains very rare, and there is no evidence of any widespread fraudulent voting happening by mail or otherwise.
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Where I live (Texas) early in-person voting starts Oct 13th and runs until Oct 30th. No long lines. I'll be voting that way. All blue this time. I'd have no problem voting by mail either.

The GOP deserves what is going to them. Hopefully the smackdown will wake them up, get rid of the idiot fanatics that took over the party, and they can refocus and rebuild what it really means to be a real conservative. We need 2 parties. But they need to be rational. The current GOP is not, and hasn't been for a while.

VOTE THEM ALL OUT.
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"Most of these refer to ballots that arrived late or were undelivered. Nothing to do with fraudulent voting. "

No fooling again, late and undelivered ballots is part of the voting process that makes it insecure for the result of a credible and legitimate voting process.

Thank you for repeatedly making my point for me.
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"..We need 2 parties. But they need to be rational. The current GOP is not, and hasn't been for a while..."

Recently I read that a GOP campaign consultant said that the GOP has become a party of campaign slogans and lies and not facts and ideas.

The GOP is a very real danger to our country and it's people.
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"Most of these refer to ballots that arrived late or were undelivered. Nothing to do with fraudulent voting. "

No fooling again, late and undelivered ballots is part of the voting process that makes it insecure for the result of a credible and legitimate voting process.

Thank you for repeatedly making my point for me.


So you weren’t talking about fraudulent votes? Ok then.`
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"So you weren’t talking about fraudulent votes? Ok then.`"

Fraudulent votes, late ballot delivery, or no ballot delivery(for whatever reason), untraceable votes(due to no chain of custody accountability), are the basis of today's mail-in voting system and using it for a Presidential election using this unsecure and unstable system is a guaranteed and unnecessary nightmare for this country.
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"So you weren’t talking about fraudulent votes? Ok then.`"

Fraudulent votes...

Not a significant problem, anywhere.

...late ballot delivery, or no ballot delivery(for whatever reason)...

Vote by mail has long been used by the military and in other places. Late or undelivered has never been considered a reason to question the results. Again, not fraudulent voting.

...untraceable votes(due to no chain of custody accountability)...

That has ALWAYS been the case - for many years. No chain of custody is required. You keep repeating that, but you just made it up as a 'must have'. I know you don't like it, but it has never been shown to be a significant problem.

...are the basis of today's mail-in voting system and using it for a Presidential election using this unsecure and unstable system is a guaranteed and unnecessary nightmare for this country.

Guaranteed? LOL. Unstable? Hyperbole. First you have to show where it has been significant problem, ever. Just being fearful isn't enough. Nor is the fact that Trump wants to question the validity of the election, because ehe can see the likely outcome from here. It sounds like what you are saying is that the way we have been doing it for a long time in many places, including many politicians and the military is a nightmare. This is Chicken Little stuff. The sky is not falling. Passports come in the mail.
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"Guaranteed? LOL. Unstable? Hyperbole. First you have to show where it has been significant problem, ever. Just being fearful isn't enough. Nor is the fact that Trump wants to question the validity of the election, because ehe can see the likely outcome from here. It sounds like what you are saying is that the way we have been doing it for a long time in many places, including many politicians and the military is a nightmare. "

LOL all you like but the system at best is fragile. Do you seriously think anyone has asked the USPS what they think they can do with an ...extra... 130+ million pieces of ballot mail to be handled in a period of a couple of weeks on top of the
millions that they already are tasked to deliver will do to their system.. Of course not. The Dems know full well what this new load of work will do to the system and intend to use the chaos to their advantage. Spin on.
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"Guaranteed? LOL. Unstable? Hyperbole. First you have to show where it has been significant problem, ever. Just being fearful isn't enough. Nor is the fact that Trump wants to question the validity of the election, because ehe can see the likely outcome from here. It sounds like what you are saying is that the way we have been doing it for a long time in many places, including many politicians and the military is a nightmare. "

LOL all you like but the system at best is fragile.

So you keep saying.
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The US Postal Service definitively said Monday that it had the capacity to handle the added volume of mail-in ballots in November's general election after President Donald Trump questioned its ability to do so.

"The Postal Service has ample capacity to adjust our nationwide processing and delivery network to meet projected Election and Political Mail volume, including any additional volume that may result as a response to the COVID-19 pandemic," the agency said in a statement.
The agency's resolute stance comes after high profile naysayers, especially the President, have cast doubt on whether it will be able to handle an election that is expected to see significant numbers of mail-in ballots as the pandemic rages on.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/03/politics/postal-service-ample...
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Well, there are some articles to review. Potential evidence. Frankly, I'm surprised that you actually took the time to respond. I honestly didn't think you would.

You held up your end of the bargain, so I have some reading to do. Let's get started.

Tell you what. I'll put each article in a separate reply. It's Monday and I have to work. I'm not sure I could knock out all of the responses in a single reply. But since you took the time, I feel I must also make the time. So bear with me.

Article 1:
https://www.npr.org/2020/07/13/889751095/signed-sealed-undel...

Let's start where the article starts:
Hundreds of thousands of ballots go uncounted each year because people make mistakes, such as forgetting to sign the form or sending it in too late.

Not following instructions. Has nothing to do with security of the mail. These are all actually delivered. So your "chain of custody" issues don't apply here. People also have their in-person ballots invalidated all the time. They mark too many boxes. They make unclear markings. They make stray marks. These are all unfortunate. But they are not fraud or any other issue that would undermine trust in elections.

An NPR analysis has found that in the primary elections held so far this year, at least 65,000 absentee or mail-in ballots have been rejected because they arrived past the deadline, often through no fault of the voter.

That is an issue, although I question the "no fault of the voter" part. Mailing your return right at the deadline, therefore adding to the risk of late delivery, IS something the voter can control. Mail your ballot early. If you are up against the deadline for mailing, consider dropping off the ballot if your locality offers that option. I believe all localities should offer that option.

Another option is to extend the deadline for delivery. It is entirely up to local voting officials how long they allow for mail-in ballots to be delivered. What would adding another day or two or three do to this result? How many additional ballots could have been counted?

The upshot here, for purposes of the discussion, is that this is a timing issue, not a fraud issue. The article had no examples of ballots being deliberately delayed or dumped or mishandled by the post office.

It is an interesting and important issue to discuss, but this article does not support your assertion that mail-in ballots are unduly prone to wide-spread fraud simply by being delivered via US Mail.

--Peter
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The US Postal Service definitively said Monday that it had the capacity to handle the added volume of mail-in ballots in November's general election after President Donald Trump questioned its ability to do so.

I'm pretty sure that my local post office will be able to find the county courthouse consider that it's just across the street.
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I would be careful about taking the word of the PO with DeJoy at the head. Is he setting it up for a fail?

https://theweek.com/articles/925637/donald-trump-destroying-...

DeJoy is pushing a lot of business consultant mumbo-jumbo on the agency. He has limited overtime, instructed mail carriers to leave mail behind that will slow down their delivery routes, and required that they park no more than four times along their delivery routes.
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As promised, here's my response to your second article.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/south-carolina-election-bal...

Let's quote a bit from the article again.

South Carolina election officials may cut ties with the company they used, Minnesota printer SeaChange, over the mix-up after about 20 Charleston County absentee ballots were found outside the state, the reports say.

Election officials say this isn’t the first absentee ballot issue they’ve had with the company, which prints and mails ballots for 13 South Carolina counties.


The outside company SC election officials chose to print and mail absentee ballots messed up and sent 20 ballots to Maryland (for whom they apparently also offer a similar service).

Strangely, this isn't the first time this company has made a mistake with SC absentee ballots.

Some voters in Greenville County received the wrong absentee ballots when the Democratic presidential primary and the special election for sheriff were held just 10 days apart, Election Commission spokesman Chris Whitmire told the Post and Courier. Voters in Charleston received ballots that were folded in a way that made them tough to read by scanning machines.

So there are at least two prior mistakes made by this printing company.

One might ask how many times the SC election officials will allow this company to make mistakes before a new vendor is found?

So what was the upshot of this specific instance - ballots found in Maryland? Well ... ummm ... none. There were about 20 ballots involved. They ended up in the hands of Maryland election officials, who were kind enough to contact their counterparts in SC and return those ballots to SC. No actual fraud committed.

Here's another article, with some info from the MD side of things:
https://www.dailywire.com/news/south-carolina-absentee-ballo...

The ready-to-mail ballots have since made their way to Charleston-area voters, state and county election officials said ...

Again, your chosen article fails to support your assertion that there is wide-spread voter fraud with mail-in ballots.

--Peter
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Article 3:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/04/24/28_mil...

28 million mail-in ballots missing in last 4 elections.

You made me work a bit on this one. But I'm glad I did.

Let's start with the article's opening paragraph.

Between 2012 and 2018, 28.3 million mail-in ballots remain unaccounted for, according to data from the federal Election Assistance Commission. The missing ballots amount to nearly one in five of all absentee ballots and ballots mailed to voters residing in states that do elections exclusively by mail.

Interesting. First off, I did not know that the Federal Election Assistance Commission was a thing. But it is. Here's their home page, if you care to explore.
https://www.eac.gov/

They style themselves as U.S. Election Assistance Commission rather than the federal Election Assistance Commission, but I was able to find them anyway. A tad sloppy by the reporter, but not that big a deal.

Let's look at paragraph 3 from the article:

Although there is no evidence that the millions of missing ballots were used fraudulently, the Public Interest Legal Foundation, which compiled the public data provided from the Election Assistance Commission, says that the sheer volume of them raises serious doubts about election security.

Here's another point that slowed me down. That sentence above included a web link to the report it mentions. But the link is bad. So that sent me off to try to find it. Dig up this Public Interest Legal Foundation (henceforth PILF), then search their site for an article that might be the one. I eventually found this page, which looks like a press release to me:
https://publicinterestlegal.org/blog/report-28-million-mail-...

But that press release includes a link (two, actually) to their research brief. Here you go:
https://publicinterestlegal.org/files/Mail-Voting-2012_2018-... It's a PDF rather than a web page, in case you care about such things.

This research brief is distinctly unimpressive. Two pages - one with some text and two tables, and one with two charts and their sources. But those source references are important. They sent me back to the US EAC with the right search term: Election Administration and Voting Survey.

Back at the EAC, I was able to learn that they conduct various surveys around the bi-annual Federal elections. I eventually found their reports on the 2016 and 2018 elections, which are the two elections included in those two tables in the Public Interest Legal Foundation brief. Here's the web page for the 2016 survey.
https://www.eac.gov/research-and-data/2016-election-administ...
I'll let the reader find the 2018 survey on their own.

I looked at the report itself, which can be found here (as well as on the above web page):
https://www.eac.gov/sites/default/files/eac_assets/1/6/2016_...

This PDF report is a bit longer, coming in at 200+ pages. On page 10 of the report (page 16 of the PDF file), I found my first good clue. Let me quote it:
Nationally, by-mail voting constituted 23.7 percent of all votes cast in the 2016 election. Approximately 80.1 percent of absentee ballots that were transmitted to voters were returned and processed...

Going back to the PILF brief, they claim that 41.6 million mail-in ballots were sent in 2016, and that 6.8 million were undeliverable, rejected, or "unknown". That's 16.3% of the ballots sent. The EAC says 80.1% of mailed ballots were returned and processed. That means 19.9% were not. So we're off by a couple of percent. Perhaps there are some missing categories in the PILF brief. But I'm not going to dig further, as the numbers are close enough.

I took a much quicker look at the other years, but the upshot is that I can't find major fault with the numbers in PILF report. They appear to be roughly correct, so I see no reason to quibble with them.

That leaves us with the conclusion of the PILF report. What conclusion did they draw? I suspect they drew their conclusion first, then put some data together. Here's why.

Take a look at the opening sentence of the PILF report:
Even in times of relative tranquility and health, the U.S. mail voting system generates millions of errors and even more questions about what actually happens after an official puts a ballot in the postal system.

That sounds more like a conclusion to me. And the data doesn't really support it. No where in the data they presented are there errors, let alone millions of them. There are undeliverable ballots. There are rejected ballots. There are missing ballots - ballots that were mailed to voters and never returned. The vast majority are in that last category - missing.

Then there's the President of PILF with his statement at the end of the brief:
Putting the election in the hands of the United States Postal Service would be a catastrophe. Over the recent decade, there were 28 million missing and misdirected ballots.

Again, how does the data support this? Are the 28 million missing ballots sitting at the post office waiting to be delivered? Not likely. Did postal workers destroy them? Again, not likely. Destruction of mail on this scale and with this much regularity (about the same 20% of ballots mailed in each of the 4 elections examined) would be headline news.

No, this is nothing more than misuse of data and fear mongering. It is sullying the hard working people at the post office, putting the blame on them. The data does not support anything along the lines of a catastrophe.

You know what the data tells me? It tells me that 20% of people who request a main-in ballot never return it. Those ballots almost certainly were delivered to the intended voters. Then those voters never bothered to return them.

The Post Office is not going to destroy or misplace or fail to deliver 20% of ballots, but then deliver all other mail reliably. But we don't have to guess at how reliable USPS mail delivery is. They track it and publish the data quarterly. Here you go:
https://about.usps.com/what/performance/service-performance/...

They deliver roughly 98% of the mail entrusted to them on time. (They used to be well over 99% 5 to 10 years ago.) It makes no sense to blame the USPS for these missing ballots.

But the most damning thing here is right back in the original article. I already quoted it above, but went charging right past it:
there is no evidence that the millions of missing ballots were used fraudulently

Let that sink in. There is no evidence that the millions of missing ballots were used fraudulently.

And you know what that is? Because they weren't used fraudulently. Fraud on that scale would stick out like a sore thumb. It couldn't be hidden.

No - those ballots are not a problem. At least not a problem causing voting irregularities. The biggest problem they pose is for landfill operators. Voters simply threw them away.

Hopefully, they were at least recycled.

--Peter
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You know what the data tells me? It tells me that 20% of people who request a main-in ballot never return it. Those ballots almost certainly were delivered to the intended voters. Then those voters never bothered to return them.

Yes, this could well include all of those people who actually plan to vote at the polls or at early voting locations, if their jurisdiction has them, but would like a mail-in ballot as backup.

Pete
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"Yes, this could well include all of those people who actually plan to vote at the polls or at early voting locations, if their jurisdiction has them, but would like a mail-in ballot as backup."
---------------------

That is exactly what I did before I retired. I worked out of town some, so I got put on the
mail-in ballot list. I only had to mail it in once, the other times I voted at the polling booth.
Caused a little confusion, but once I explained what I was doing, and showed ID, they let me vote,
no problem. This whole "issue" is a load of BS. Trump figures it's bad for him, so he spews
some idiocy, and his stooges latch on and perpetuate the BS. Rinse and repeat, ad nauseam.
Sure will be glad when Trump fades into oblivion, acknowledged as the worst President in
American history.
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Article number 4:
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2020/05/27/doj-charges-mail-car...

DOJ charges mail carrier with attempted voter fraud, and it’s only the tip of the hidden iceberg

This article is quite the shotgun blast of claims, including a couple that are rather unspecific. I'm only going to address the specific claims - ones that at least name a suspect individual or organization.

Claim #1
“Thomas Cooper, a mail carrier in Pendleton County, was charged today in a criminal complaint with attempted election fraud,” the DOJ announced late Tuesday.

Yep. He was. So what was the attempted election fraud? The article tells us.

In April 2020, the Clerk of Pendleton County received ‘2020 Primary Election COVID-19 Mail-In Absentee Request’ forms from eight voters on which the voter’s party-ballot request appeared to have been altered.”

A subsequent investigation found that he did alter the items.

But read that again. What did he alter? He altered requests for absentee ballots. Not the actual ballots.

No actual mail-in ballots were altered.

Claim #2
“Jentry Jasperson, of Pacifica, forged signatures for a referendum iniative [sic] and paid a $5 fee per signature,” one case from this year reads. “She was reported to have forged over 100 signatures, most of which were actual country residents.”

She later pled guilty to felony charges, and was sentenced to 2 years.

Once again, no actual mail in ballots were involved. She forged signatures to qualify an initiative for an upcoming election.

Claim #3
“A state investigation in Palm Beach County found clear-cut evidence of voter fraud in last year’s August primary election,” Miami station WLRN reported during the summer of 2017. “Investigators with the State Attorney’s Office found more than 20 forged signatures on request forms for absentee ballots.”

But no suspect found, so no charges filed.

For the third time, no mail in ballots were affected, although some voters received absentee ballots they didn't request.

Claim #4
The Palm Beach Post confirmed that two Democrats, current Commissioner Mack Bernard and Rep. Al Jacquet who’d run in the August 2016 primary had taken “advantage of gaping holes in Florida’s vote-by-mail laws to pressure and cajole voters in their living rooms.” And in some cases, the two filled out and even signed the voters’ ballots for them.

These are serious charges. Pressuring people doesn't strike me as a problem. Campaigns get hundreds or thousands of volunteers to go door to door, effectively pressuring people to vote for or against many things. So that one means nothing.

Filling out ballots should have some serious restrictions, but is not necessarily a problem. Due to my son's brain injury, he lacks the physical coordination to properly mark a ballot. So I assist him with the marking. We discuss the issues as any father and son might, but I follow his wishes in whom he votes for even when I disagree. A candidate - or even someone associated with a campaign - assisting a voter in filling out a ballot strikes me as something that would cross the line.

Signing the ballots for someone - basically forgery - absolutely crosses the line. That's never OK. My son made his own mark on his ballot envelope, which I also signed as a witness.

But these are just allegations by a newspaper. Many newspapers have done plenty of important investigative work, uncovering many different things over the years. So what was the result of this bit of investigative journalism? Let's find out.

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/fl-reg-jacquet-po...

at the start of the meeting, Powell took a moment to address "the elephant in the room" — a recently closed police investigation looking into mail-in ballot voter fraud in the August 2016 primaries of both state legislators, along with Palm Beach County Commissioner Mack Bernard, who sat in the front row of the town hall.

"The report does not at any point indicate that our campaigns are under investigation," Powell said of a recently closed investigation by the Palm Beach County State Attorney's Office.

...

Investigators found just six actual mail-in ballots that may have been signed with forged signatures. All of that came after Palm Beach Supervisor of Elections Susan Bucher identified some 2,000 mail-in ballots or request forms that may have been frauds.


2000 items that were suspected. 6 ballots signed with possibly forged signatures. No charges filed against the two named politicians or their campaigns.

Finally, we have an actual instance of forged signatures on ballots. But it's only 6. I don't want to minimize election fraud. However, this is hardly supportive of Trump's claim, "There is NO WAY (ZERO!) that Mail-In Ballots will be anything less than substantially fraudulent."

Six out of 2000 potential forgeries is 0.3%. In a close race, that could be enough to sway things. But that's not really the right comparison. A better comparison is 6 out of however many mail-in ballots were submitted. So that 0.3% is a maximum figure for this particular election. With at least 99.7% of mail-in ballots legitimate, I'd call mail-in balloting substantially safe.

Claim #5
The foundation is currently suing Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, for allowing the same person to register to vote seven times.

The foundation here is our friends from last time, the Public Interest Legal Foundation.

What was the result of this lawsuit?

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BbeG2W...

It was settled.

According to the settlement signed by both parties’ lawyers, Allegheny County analyzed the data provided by the law firm — which alleged several thousand faulty registration records — and “made the determinations and/or performed the voter list maintenance actions” requested.

But again, this is not a problem with main-in balloting. It was a voter registration issue.

What is more troubling to me are the dates. The BPR article you provided is dated May 27, 2020. The article I found discussing the settlement carried a dateline of May 19, 2020. So the case had been settled before the BPR article was published. And that makes the penultimate paragraph of the BPR article a blatant lie:
As of late May, it wasn’t clear if election officials had removed the extra registrations yet.


So where does that leave this article? I think the final short paragraph sums it up pretty well.
Fact-check: FALSE.

--Peter
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Peter,

Thank you for taking the time to research these claims and sharing this valuable information with us.

Well done!

AW
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An excellent excellent evaluation of the article. however, they all have one thing in common....there was ...tampering ... in each of these examples. Does this nation need this in the upcoming election ...particularly one in which many states are not geared up for massive mail=in voting three months before a national POTUS election?
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however, they all have one thing in common....there was ...tampering ... in each of these examples.

You're trying to change the goal posts, and I'm not going to let you do that. Our previous discussions were about the security of mail-in ballots while in the mail.

I will stick to that topic.

--Peter
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An excellent excellent evaluation of the article. however, they all have one thing in common....there was ...tampering ... in each of these examples.

No. Only ONE claim referred to mail-in ballot tampering, to the tune of 6 whole ballots.

Does this nation need this in the upcoming election ...particularly one in which many states are not geared up for massive mail=in voting three months before a national POTUS election?

Massive? LOL. NO. Given the miniscule number and scant evidence, we can only conclude that there is no widespread voter fraud with regard t mail-in ballots - as most all the election officials have been telling us. We can safely rely on mail in ballots to be 97-98% accurate. What we cannot do is restrict voting because of fear. Our nation really needs to be able to vote, and safely. The only way we can do that for many is using a by mail system.

America has done great things. This isn't that hard. Stop fear-mongering.
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...they all have one thing in common....there was ...tampering ... in each of these examples.

Phhhhttttt. . . That's ridiculous. Trump and his moronic cult are not mumbling about a few dozen people tampering with voter registration forms or with petitions to place an issue on a ballot. The ignorant cult is repeating their big fat stupid orange leader claiming that actual ballots placed in the mail are ripe for fraud. By retreating from that claim of voter fraud to this latter claim of form tampering that is completely irrelevant to vote-by-mail ballot safety, you have conceded the point.

Republican lies about voter fraud is nothing but noise they are creating to try to cheat the Democratic process. The GOP has become a cult of an authoritarian con man. They no longer believe in the Constitution or even the country. They believe in a big fat orange liar and will tear down everything in America to prove their devotion to him. They are sad and pathetic losers. Let's hope they all lose in November.
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"Our previous discussions were about the security of mail-in ballots while in the mail."

Sorry but the topic is the ...security... (see post title) of mail-in ballots and the likelihood of them being tampered with.
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