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I cannot believe this "board leader" stuff. Intercst is naturally going to defend his own research as would anyone, but I really doubt he wants to be the "board leader". In fact he isn't:

twocbock put it best:
I do not believe you [hocus] are a board leader - just as I do not believe intercst is a board leader. Frankly I am a bit put off by you characterizing yourself as a "board leader." You are both posters on a the Retire Early Home Page that happened to be initiated by intercst. That's all. All viewpoints should be treated with respect - but not with unquestioning reverence.

Once again (I think I say this every month) read intercst's profile
http://boards.fool.com/Profile.asp?uid=55063
Personal Quote: "Some people are leaders, some are followers, and a few just don't want to join the parade." I think that says it all.

arrete - with the number libertarians on this board it is too funny to be talking about "leaders".
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I cannot believe this "board leader" stuff.

Arrete:

You say in Post 87808 that "we are a community," and then you say in Post 87816 that there are no board leaders. The two ideas contradict each other. All communities have leaders.
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No. of Recommendations: 12
"da man" posts:
You say in Post 87808 that "we are a community," and then you say in Post 87816 that there are no board leaders. The two ideas contradict each other. All communities have leaders.

Maybe that's true for you (poor soul). But not necessarily for others. It sure isn't true where I come from.
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Maybe that's true for you (poor soul). But not necessarily for others. It sure isn't true where I come from.

I'm wondering, Galeno. Do people where you come from ever sit back, have a few beers, and forget the problems of the world for a few precious moments?
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No. of Recommendations: 16
"da man" posts:
You say in Post 87808 that "we are a community," and then you say in Post 87816 that there are no board leaders. The two ideas contradict each other. All communities have leaders.

Maybe that's true for you (poor soul). But not necessarily for others. It sure isn't true where I come from.


Most people on message boards don't even use their real names, and we don't have a clue to who they really are. The virtual world is no more real than Star Trek, no more real than TV or Radio. For all we know the people that say their male may be female, and the females may be male. You can be whomever and whatever you want to be in the virtual world. Galeno may be an Eskimo woman in Alaska! It's like watching fiction on TV, you have to suspend your disbelief, but when you turn off the computer you have to wake up to the real world. There is all kind of quack medicine, legal advice, and business advice on the internet, and sorting it all out, as to what's good and what's not is almost impossible. I take everything I read on any message board with a grain of salt. - Art <grin>
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Most people on message boards don't even use their real names, and we don't have a clue to who they really are. The virtual world is no more real than Star Trek, no more real than TV or Radio.

I understand your point, Art. But I do provide my real name in my Motley Fool personal profile. It's "Rob Bennett." I'm not a Star Trek character. I'm an actual person.
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No. of Recommendations: 13
hocus: . All communities have leaders.

galeno: Maybe that's true for you (poor soul). But not necessarily for others. It sure isn't true where I come from

The most accepted definition of leader (from the dictionary) is a leader in position - head of all others and able to make decisions that affect the whole community. I don't believe that is a necessary part of any community and I don't believe it is part of REHP. Consensus-building can easily take the place of a single leader. However, I don't believe we need a consensus for most topics (except maybe RE can be a goal for some people <g>) - after all this is a discussion board.

A person can make a significant contribution to a group through depth of knowledge. This is not "leading" in a strict sense, but it naturally influences a group. Intercst (and several others) have this depth of knowledge as evidenced by their research and effort spent in understanding particular issues. Lazy bums, like me, depend on these people to cough up the goods. We don't necessarily take them at face value, but over time get to know who is presenting valuable information and who is spouting nonsense.

The knowledge and effort is only useful to other people if it presented in a concise and persuasive manner - good communication skills are required. This is another example of influence, but only because the person is successful at getting his/her point across.

Bottom line is that I believe we are more like a round-robin discussion panel. Nobody is leading, and the only way to influence the audience is to say something insightful in a clearly understood way. There is a moderator, but you can think of TMF in this role.

arrete
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hocus: All communities have leaders.

Yes, yes, we understand you want to be one on this board. But the only surefire way to be a "leader"--if such is important to you, or even possible for that matter--is to start your own board.

In any event, why do you think you are a board leader?

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Intercst (and several others) have this depth of knowledge as evidenced by their research and effort spent in understanding particular issues. Lazy bums, like me, depend on these people to cough up the goods. We don't necessarily take them at face value, but over time get to know who is presenting valuable information and who is spouting nonsense.

You describe things well here, Arrete. This is precisely the sort of process that I am referring to when I say that there are board leaders here. There are people who have earned your trust, and they need to behave in a certain manner to be sure not to abuse the trust they have earned.

There is a moderator, but you can think of TMF in this role.

Again, you state this exactly right. The TMF posting rules are the tool we use to make sure that everyone plays fair. So long as those rules are followed, we can each figure out for ourselves what to believe and what to discount. If the rules are not followed, the whole thing falls apart.





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Why do you think you are a board leader?

Go to the link marked "REHP Board FAQ" at the top right-hand corner of this page. Go about two-thirds of the way down, and you will come to these words:

Also any post by hocus is well worth reading. Just click on the "Recs" link on the list of posts for the Retire Early board. His are all at the top.

A community member earns a position of leadership by consistently offering the board quality posts that help people achieve the goals they come to the board to achieve. I've been doing that for three and one-half years now, and that makes me a board leader.

I am not the only board leader, to be sure. There are lots of others who have done a great deal to build up this community over the years. But I am certainly a board leader, and I most certainly believe that there is a responsibility that goes with that.

But the only surefire way to be a "leader"--if such is important to you, or even possible for that matter--is to start your own board.

Gurdison put up a post making a comment that I did not understand, and I noted in response that as a board leader I considered it an important responsibility of mine to show respect for all segments of the board community. That's how the subject of leadership came up.

Nothing that anyone has said since has persuaded me that board leaders do not have this responsibility. I would never post something deliberately deceptive solely to win an argument. If I have a reasoned argument to offer, I put it forward. If not, I take a pass. There is no argument so worth winning that it justifies abusing the community's trust.
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No. of Recommendations: 6
arrete wrote,

Intercst (and several others) have this depth of knowledge as evidenced by their research and effort spent in understanding particular issues. Lazy bums, like me, depend on these people to cough up the goods. We don't necessarily take them at face value, but over time get to know who is presenting valuable information and who is spouting nonsense.

to which hocus replied

You describe things well here, Arrete. This is precisely the sort of process that I am referring to when I say that there are board leaders here. There are people who have earned your trust, and they need to behave in a certain manner to be sure not to abuse the trust they have earned.

My trust of an individual only relates to arena in which it was earned. I trust Intercst's knowledge when it comes to withdrawal strategies. To lose my trust, I would need some evidence that his knowledge is faulty. This trust in him, however doesn't include all areas of his expertise. For example, I probably wouldn't recommend him as a consultant to a charm school <grin>.


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hocus, when I wrote those words, I knew you would misinterpret them.

This is precisely the sort of process that I am referring to when I say that there are board leaders here. There are people who have earned your trust, and they need to behave in a certain manner to be sure not to abuse the trust they have earned.

Horse hockey! It's up to each individual reader to decide whether or not any particular statement makes sense. Plenty of people, including those that you might term "board leaders" differed with intercst on the dividend discussion. It had zippo to do with trust. There's no trust or distrust about it (for me, anyway). I either agree or disagree, and I have done both with everyone here who has posted more than a couple of ideas.

The TMF posting rules are the tool we use to make sure that everyone plays fair.

Good heavens - sounds like the local sandbox with parents hanging around. I hope we are old enough to play by ourselves. The role I see for TMF is providing a (fairly) spam-free environment and easy to use boards. Facilatator - not rule maker. I know the rules are there, but I, for one, am sick of having them stuffed down my throat everytime Johnny throws a little sand.

arrete - this will probably misinterpreted too.
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My trust of an individual only relates to arena in which it was earned. I trust Intercst's knowledge when it comes to withdrawal strategies. To lose my trust, I would need some evidence that his knowledge is faulty....I probably wouldn't recommend him as a consultant to a charm school

You speak for many with this statement, workwayless.

I am saying that his knowledge re safe withdrawal rates is faulty. I would like to explain to those members of this community interested in hearing the case why I think this is so.

But it can't be done in an atmostphere where each discussion of safe withdrawal rates that gets too close to the truth generates deceptive claims or threats of physical violence. Too many people leave the threads when this sort of thing happens to achieve anything constructive. We need to follow the rules in order for the discussion to take place in a manner in which reasonable people will be able to make any sense of it.
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There's no trust or distrust about it (for me, anyway). I either agree or disagree

How can you decide whether to agree or disagree when you don't know the facts? If posters are deceptive about the facts, how can you ever know what you would have thought had you only known the reality?

inparadise posted that I had once claimed that stocks could not go up more than 100 percent. Now, that is flat-out nuts. How did she ever get such a crazy idea into her head? It happened because people on this board said that I thought that even though it isn't true. That sort of thing has happened a lot.
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I would like to explain to those members of this community interested in hearing the case why I think this is so.

I'm interested in knowing why The Study is faulty. Please explain...briefly. If brevity is supported by breaking it down, please begin by explaining your Number One Most Faulty Reason.

I doubt that anyone here will prevent you from presenting your views. No guarantees that you will not be challenged. Thank you.

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It happened because people on this board said that I thought that even though it isn't true. That sort of thing has happened a lot.

Then you have to say, "Excuse me, inparadise, but I did not say that. This is what I really think." "The Rules" allow you to rebut the rebuttal and then rebut the rebuttal to the rebuttal.
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"The Rules" allow you to rebut the rebuttal and then rebut the rebuttal to the rebuttal.

Of course, Catherine. But that means that we have 200 posts a day on this issue without ever getting anywhere with it. Is that really what you want?
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But that means that we have 200 posts a day on this issue without ever getting anywhere with it. Is that really what you want?

I think that well-written concise posts with reasonable supporting data and sources will get us anywhere we want to go. Please carry on.
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No. of Recommendations: 15
arrete: The most accepted definition of leader (from the dictionary) is a leader in position - head of all others and able to make decisions that affect the whole community. I don't believe that is a necessary part of any community and I don't believe it is part of REHP. Consensus-building can easily take the place of a single leader. However, I don't believe we need a consensus for most topics (except maybe RE can be a goal for some people <g>) - after all this is a discussion board.

I come from a culture that professes to understand leadership and even writes manuals and spends a lot of time and money training and educating folks to be leaders. Our definition is very different. I was taught at the NCO Academy that military leadership was defined as "influencing men to accomplish a mission" and that everyone from soldier to general can exercise leadership.

That definition is a bit old school (but then so am I). The current Army definition (FM 22-100): Leadership is influencing people—by providing purpose, direction, and motivation—while operating to accomplish the mission and improving the organization. (see http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/22-100/toc.htm)

Furthermore, that manual says, "The desire to accomplish that mission despite all adversity is called the warrior ethos and makes the profession of arms different from all other professions. That ethos applies to all soldiers ..."

We expect leadership from every officer and noncommissioned officer. We expect and recognize leadership by all soldiers. It's not just the guy at the top who leads and we know that. In fact, we purposely differentiate command from leadership. We have by design a parallel and hierarchical leadership structure in the military that allows folks to exhibit leadership in various ways at various times.

That said, I totally agree with you, arrete. We do not have formal leaders. intercst is not my board leader and hocus is not among those that I would follow (except out of curiosity). I am here to be amused and to now and then learn a thing or two. Some folks need to lighten up and live and let live ;-)

Best Regards,
Prometheuss

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<<That said, I totally agree with you, arrete. We do not have formal leaders. >>


Yes, I think that's true. But we do have people who lead due to the influence of their ideas and their willingness to defend and advance those ideas. Intercst is certainly one of those informal leaders, and the first among those leaders in my view.



Seattle Pioneer
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Hocus claims

But it can't be done in an atmostphere where each discussion of safe withdrawal rates that gets too close to the truth generates deceptive claims or threats of physical violence.

Hocus,

I partake in the Ignore thread quite a bit, but I don't recall ever seeing anyone ever threaten physical violence in this place. That is a pretty strong allegation. Could you please post some evidence?

Regards,

Keith Jones
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Fbomb101 asks,

Hocus claims

But it can't be done in an atmostphere where each discussion of safe withdrawal rates that gets too close to the truth generates deceptive claims or threats of physical violence.

Hocus,

I partake in the Ignore thread quite a bit, but I don't recall ever seeing anyone ever threaten physical violence in this place. That is a pretty strong allegation. Could you please post some evidence?

Regards,


I believe galeno might have threatened to "bitch-slap" him after one too many long-winded, illogical posts from yu-no-who. But as a practical matter, it's not possible to "bitch-slap" anyone through the window of your Internet browser, so the threat is more metaphysical than physical.

It's even harder to do if you have to apply the whup-a** from Costa Rica where galeno resides.

It's probably just another of the many examples of yo-no-who misinterpreting what he reads.

intercst
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<<I partake in the Ignore thread quite a bit, but I don't recall ever seeing anyone ever threaten physical violence in this place. That is a pretty strong allegation. Could you please post some evidence?

Regards,

Keith Jones

>>


If you aren't nice to Hocus, I'll have to XXXXX you in the nose!




Seattle Pioneer
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I don't recall ever seeing anyone ever threaten physical violence in this place. That is a pretty strong allegation. Could you please post some evidence?

There were a series of posts by Galeno in August that have been pulled. In one, he called for the board to stop discussing issues and instead engage in a "holy war" against me. In another, he threatened to come after me with a baseball bat if I continued to raise questions about the methodology of the intercst study.

Intercst commented favorably on those posts, and offered strong criticism of the community member who fool alerted them. He explained in a subsequent post that he enjoys the "witty repartee" he finds in such posts. He has said several times that he places great confidence in "Doctor Galeno's prescriptions." He has said that the fool alert process should be used on this board only to report spam, in direct contradiction to the Motley Fool rule stating that it is a poster's obligation to report prohibited posting activity.

On the afternoon of November 25, Galeno put up a post suggesting that I put a gun to my head and pull the trigger. Several other posters agreed this was a good idea, but suggested that Galeno was recommending the wrong gun model. One poster said that, if Galeno believed that there were a way that words could be used to kill, he would like to see a demonstration of this.
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As a practical matter, it's not possible to "bitch-slap" anyone through the window of your Internet browser, so the threat is more metaphysical than physical.

I disagree. Threats of physical violence, as well as other prohibited posting practices, have serious negative effect on the long-term health of this community.

There have been many occasions on which large numbers of this community have expressed in strong terms the desire that this sort of activity stop. Just last Monday, there was a poll taken in which 63 community members endorsed the view that this board "is going to hell" because of its focus on off-topic posting and personal attack.

When the desires of such community members is ignored, they leave the board and the resource becomes less rich for all of us. We all suffer when posters refuse to play by the rules. It is even worse when board leaders express contempt for the rules.

We have lost many fine posters as a result of the prohibited posting that has come to characterize this place. The list includes--FoolMeOnce, Wanderer, BenSolar, Raddr, JWR1945 and others. This community is paying a big price for the refusal of a small group to honor their word when they clicked the "I Accept" button that appeared when they first posted to these boards.
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yu-no-who writes:
We have lost many fine posters as a result of the prohibited posting that has come to characterize this place. The list includes--FoolMeOnce, Wanderer, BenSolar, Raddr, JWR1945 and others. This community is paying a big price for the refusal of a small group to honor their word when they clicked the "I Accept" button that appeared when they first posted to these boards.

One man's "fine posters" are another man's chumps. I say good riddence to the chumps <grin>. They cried and whined far too much. Total wussmongers!!
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>>>>>
... In another, he threatened to come after me with a baseball bat
>>>>>

>>>>>
On the afternoon of November 25, Galeno put up a post suggesting that I put a gun to my head and pull the trigger. Several other posters agreed this was a good idea, but suggested that Galeno was recommending the wrong gun model.
>>>>>

LMAO! I missed these Capt. Queeg, but thanks for pointing them out.. They've been deleted so I'll rec your post instead.

lol

-reb
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I missed these Capt. Queeg, but thanks for pointing them out...They've been deleted so I'll rec your post instead.

Oh, Lord... PLEASE don't do that. It will only encourage him. You KNOW how rec's set him off.

Fearfully,
holzgrafe
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