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OK, as long as the subject has been brought up, I could use some help!

I have a contraption that will take a cassette tape and turn it into Digital format to save to iTunes. I think I can also save it to the Windows media software.

I'm just scared to try it.

It came with a little software disk that I couldn't use because I only have a notebook that doesn't have a disk drive, so I took it to Radio Shack and they transferred everything on the disk to a thumb drive.

Is it going to be possible to load from the Windows media software down to my iPod shuffle?

MOI
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Is it going to be possible to load from the Windows media software down to my iPod shuffle?

Microsoft never built iPod support into Windows, so you'll need to use iTunes.

As for that format, well, the iPod shuffle supports:
• AAC (8 to 320 Kbps)
• Protected AAC (from iTunes Store)
• MP3 (8 to 320 Kbps)
• MP3 VBR
• Audible (formats 2, 3, 4, Audible Enhanced Audio, AAX, and AAX+)
• Apple Lossless
• AIFF, and
• WAV

So long as conversion software supports one of those formats, there shouldn't be a problem.
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Microsoft never built iPod support into Windows, so you'll need to use iTunes.

Not exactly. My wife loads music up & down to her iPod Shuffle easily using Sharepod http://www.getsharepod.com/about/.

George
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"Microsoft never built iPod support into Windows, so you'll need to use iTunes."

C'mon...Apple never made iPods/iPads etc USB mass storage devices (a universal peripheral standard) to make it as easy to drag & drop content on & off them like one can with Sansas, Kindles, Android phones, etc. MS didn't prevent that compatibility from happening - Apple did.

And there are media management apps that support iPods from other parties - plenty of them are free - you don't "need to use iTunes" to manage media on Apple devices if you would rather not.
Just keepin' it real,
B
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Actually iPods are USB mass storage devices. I've used them as boot drives for Macs.
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I'm not saying there aren't other Windows apps that can be used to manage iPods, but I am saying that the built-in apps (like Windows Media Player) can't do it.

(Since that is what the original poster asked about. Or doesn't answering the question count for anything anymore?)
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Apple never made iPods/iPads etc USB mass storage devices…

From Apple's website:
Using your iPod as a storage drive

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1478

You're always in such a hurry to call me out on something that you sometimes don't even bother to see if you're correct.

(And the fact that 7 people rec'd your post means they don't know the facts either.)
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I'm not saying there aren't other Windows apps that can be used to manage iPods, but I am saying that the built-in apps (like Windows Media Player) can't do it.

(Since that is what the original poster asked about. Or doesn't answering the question count for anything anymore?)


My aren't we touchy and defensive. I didn't take the OP's question as narrowly as you and was trying to be helpful in pointing out the OP is not limited to iTunes as you stated.

George
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Thank both of you. Very helpful on all counts.

MOI (OP)
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stevenjklein,

I'm not saying there aren't other Windows apps that can be used to manage iPods, but I am saying that the built-in apps (like Windows Media Player) can't do it.

When I "manage" my Sansa player, I use Windows Explorer, not Windows Media Player. I imagine I would do the same if I had an iPod (in USB mode, like I set the Sansa).

Isn't Windows Explorer built into Windows? (Not Internet Explorer, mind you... Windows Explorer.)

Phil
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"Actually iPods are USB mass storage devices. I've used them as boot drives for Macs"

The iPad3 certainly does not appear as a USB mass storage device. I won't bother to check my iPod becuase it hasn't changed to support that either.

What seems far more likely, given your report, is that Apple has a driver for iOS to make them look like a drive - that's not the same as adhering to the USB Mass Storage device peripheral standard else the host OS platform wouldn't matter.
B
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"I'm not saying there aren't other Windows apps that can be used to manage iPods, but I am saying that the built-in apps (like Windows Media Player) can't do it."

They can do it but they need a work around driver just like Apple does for iOS and again that unique need is because of Apples decision of no USB Mass Storage Class compliance and given they use their own HFS+ filesystem but no non iOS support via built in HFS Plus to NTFS or FAT32 translator.

"(Since that is what the original poster asked about. Or doesn't answering the question count for anything anymore?) "

You qualified your original answer to say that Windows lacked support and that iTunes was necessary. The later isn't absolute and again it might be better for people to understand the lack of support is really that the Apple devices are made to not be as compliant with USB storage device standards nor filesystems pretty much every other peripheral and tablet maker uses (standards that most other peripheral companies and MS Windows since NT5/W2K & linux sincw early 00's and even Apple since iOS 9.x supports quite well). Perhaps it serves greater Apple halo effect purpose to make these devices less standard & not inherently supported by WinPCs - you decide but to me it's just more of a PITA than with my other media toys & tablets.

"From Apple's website:
Using your iPod as a storage drive
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1478
You're always in such a hurry to call me out on something that you sometimes don't even bother to see if you're correct."

I am correct and my answer was not rushed nor this a new issue I just looked up. I own iPods and iPads - without iTunes and it's related driver it will install the devices will not work as if Mass Storage devices again because they lack native USB Mass Storage Class support and additionally use HFS+. Just try your application note instructions and then connect the device to a PC not running iTunes - it won't be recognized as mass storage there becuase as I said Apple decided to think different.

"(And the fact that 7 people rec'd your post means they don't know the facts either.)"

Or maybe they already knew or understand me just fine & have no reason to get defensive about something Apple did that is non standard. FWIW Steven I rec you all the time when you give good information...and I'll offer a counterpoint if you or anyone else gives limited or bad information on a topic I know something about - seems fair enough.

Happy New Year all!...& TGIF! (phew ;-)
B
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The iPad3 certainly does not appear as a USB mass storage device.

Neither does my Toyota Corolla. Perhaps because neither are iPods.

What seems far more likely, given your report, is that Apple has a driver for iOS to make them look like a drive…

Actually, I'm pretty sure the iOS models do NOT support USB mass storage by default. Apple has only shipped one iPod model that uses iOS—the iPod touch. The original, classic, mini, shuffle, and nano models don't use iOS.
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I imagine I would do the same if I had an iPod (in USB mode, like I set the Sansa).

It wouldn't work. While the device itself shows up, iPods and iTunes store a lot of metadeta that isn't supported by the file system. For example, song ratings, # of plays, and the location in the file where it was last used (for audiobooks, movies, and tv shows.)

So while iPods are available for mass storage, the music is stored in a special database format that is managed by iTunes (and some 3rd-party apps that explicitly support that database).
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They can do it but they need a work around driver just like Apple does for iOS and again that unique need is because of Apples decision of no USB Mass Storage Class compliance and given they use their own HFS+ filesystem but no non iOS support via built in HFS Plus to NTFS or FAT32 translator.

Almost every factual claim in that lengthy sentence is wrong.

Non iOS iPods are, in fact, USB Mass Storage Class compliant. They do not need any special driver. Which file system they use depends on the device. Some models (like the original cross-platform iPod) are formatted by iTunes as part of the setup process. Some, like the iPod, actually come factory-configured with FAT32.

See here for details: iPod: How to determine your iPod's disk format
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1335

The iPod that I used to boot a Mac was the original 5GB model, which I used to boot a Mac over FireWire. (Most Pre-Intel Macs didn't support booting over USB.) But I do know that I've connected iPods to Windows PCs that did NOT have iTunes installed, and it did mount as a standard USB device. (iTunes actually bypasses this behavior.)
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stevenjklein,

It wouldn't work. While the device itself shows up, iPods and iTunes store a lot of metadeta that isn't supported by the file system.

Good thing I have a Sansa rather than an iPod then, I guess. It has a database of additional information about the songs, but it just automatically rebuilds it whenever you download anything new into it. Takes it a little while, but it's not too bad.

Phil
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How does it know how many times you've played the song on your pc, or if you've rated it?

How does it know where you left off listening to an audiobook on another device?

How does it know how much of a video you've watched on your pc before continuing to watch it on your Sansa?

I'm not stupid, but I don't really understand how it can do that.

Can you shed some light here?
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Actually, I'm pretty sure the iOS models do NOT support USB mass storage by default.


I was talking about the host (Macs) and they do support mass storage device class by default since OSX9.
B
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"It wouldn't work. While the device itself shows up, iPods and iTunes store a lot of metadeta that isn't supported by the file system. For example, song ratings, # of plays, and the location in the file where it was last used (for audiobooks, movies, and tv shows.)"

But it COULD. Sansas rebuild their database and find all that metadata (embedded in the media file itself) just fine without the help of a host side manager. Again these are choices Apple made to try to tie the peripheral products to iTunes manager and likely because that helps support the Apple ecosystem. There are workarounds but that make sit less plug & play with PCs because again Apple made Apple centric dependencies.
B
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"Neither does my Toyota Corolla. Perhaps because neither are iPods."

Nice try smart guy but I already mentioned my iPod also has this problem. And FWIW your Corolla, if modern, would be a host using the storage device not the peripheral (iPod/iPad/iPhone).
B
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stevenjklein,

Can you shed some light here?

Nope. I don't do anything on the PC with the files besides download them. All the playback and rating and so forth is done on the Sansa. There's nothing it needs to know that isn't in the files themselves.

Phil
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Kinda right. There never was an OS called "OSX9."

All Macs that shipped with USB ports support USB mass storage since Mac OS 8.1.

And non-iOS iPods appear as USB mass storage devices to any host that supports USB mass storage devices.
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But it COULD. Sansas rebuild their database and find all that metadata…

Now I think you're playing fast and loose with the facts.

Let's say you have an audiobook on your PC and on your iPod, and you alternate back and forth between them. (I use this example because this is precisely how I listen to audio books — using my Mac when I'm in front of my Mac, and using my iPhone (and before that, my iPod) when I'm away from my Mac.

Now, the chapter I was listening to could be stored as metadata within the file itself, but it would only get stored in the version of that file on whatever device I used most recently.

There's no way your Sansa, reading a locally stored copy of a file, can access the metadata in the copy stored on your computer.

As a workaround, you could simply copy your files from PC to iPod when you step away, and then copy them back when you return, but what a pain-in-the-tuchus!

(I suppose you could keep your only copy on the player, which would solve one problem only to introduce other problems. For example, if the only copy of my media were on a device I took with me when I stepped away from my computer, then my wife wouldn't have access to my media collection. Another problem would be the lack of backup.)
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In other words, the Sansa does it by simply omitting a whole bunch of features that are standard on the iPod.
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stevenjklein,

In other words, the Sansa does it by simply omitting a whole bunch of features that are standard on the iPod.

No. In other words, Radish uses a subset of the features available on the Sansa. And none of them require anything beyond what's easily done with the USB mass storage standard.

One can connect the Sansa in MTP (Media Transfer Protocol) mode instead of MSC (Mass Storage Class) mode, and then you can sync with Windows Media Player or whatever other ludicrously complex thing you want to do. But given as how simple it is to just drag-and-drop with Windows Explorer, and given that this accomplishes everything I want to do, why would I do something more complex? Unless I had an iPod, which you're claiming can't handle that procedure.

(By the way, you never answered my question as to whether you consider Windows Explorer to be "built in" to Windows or not.)

The Sansa has a zillion features I never use. Exactly how they work, I don't know. Or care. Perhaps the iPods have some feature the Sansa lacks in a generic sense (as opposed to compatibility with some particular vendor-specific application), but I'd be pretty surprised if that's so. The Sansa is working fine for me, so I can't think of any reason to compare features.

Phil
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"One can connect the Sansa in MTP (Media Transfer Protocol) mode instead of MSC (Mass Storage Class) mode, and then you can sync with Windows Media Player or whatever other ludicrously complex thing you want to do. But given as how simple it is to just drag-and-drop with Windows Explorer, and given that this accomplishes everything I want to do, why would I do something more complex? Unless I had an iPod, which you're claiming can't handle that procedure"

Exactly Phil - some of us like to drag drop and run (literally or figuratively) and waiting for an iTunes or Media Player to overly manage them is doable but completely optional (and not opted for in my case either). Had my iPod Nano allowed that I wouldn't have upgraded to more flexible Sansa's (no regrets - they're so cheap one is being charged while others in use). Likewise enjoying similar simple drag & drop (via any file copy save method) & dash out the door that my Kindle HD allows but my iPad3 won't.
B
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"Kinda right. There never was an OS called "OSX9.""

I'll assume you knew I meant OS9 despite the edit error.

"All Macs that shipped with USB ports support USB mass storage since Mac OS 8.1"

That only makes my point stronger - Apple has supported USB Mass Storage Class...and yet their media peripherals (ipod/iphone.ipad) don't as a rule take advantage of it or more universally readable file systems. The lack of native support on Windows IS because of Apple's requirement to funnel content management through iTunes (or an equivalent work around) for getter or worse depending on what one really wanted.

"And non-iOS iPods appear as USB mass storage devices to any host that supports USB mass storage devices."

Not here...have an iPod nano and it's lack of access support, that my Sansas have naively and that will work on any modern OS, has always been what keeps my iPod in a drawer.
B
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(better)
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People shouldn't be shocked by Apple's reluctance to provide you with added flexibility. Google tries to push you towards its cloud based sites with its Nexus tablet and Microsoft forces you to buy their apps for their new tablet.

Everyone discourages rooting/jailbreaking in the strongest way, yet that's what allows those who take the chance of bricking their box to use the power that the manufacturer actually built into their appliance.

These designed are not about what we want, it's about what the manufacturers want in a format that we will tolerate.

Jeff
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The lack of native support on Windows IS because

Amon other reasons, because NTFS is patent-encumbered.

But another reason is that Windows lacks native support for all the features that iPods support.

I know that XP and Vista didn't even support playback of MP4 (AAC) files. I don't think Win7 does either, but I don't really know.

Regarding your iPod nano: it does work as a USB drive, and if you actually want to get it working (as opposed to just complaining about it) I'll be glad to help.

According to the usually reliable Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPod#File_storage_and_transfer

All models (except the touch) support it. And something I didn't know is that all models actually ship in FAT32 format (again excepting the touch).

I admit to seeing some irony in this whole thread because there are many (including myself) who believe that the convenience of managed syncing is the reason the iPod so thoroughly dominates the market for portable music players. When the iPod first shipped for Windows, there was no windows version of iTunes, let alone an iTunes Store. But iPod for windows did ship with a 3rd party app (name escapes me right now) to manages syncing.

(I think he all was called musicmatch.)
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The Sansa has a zillion features I never use. Exactly how they work, I don't know. Or care. Perhaps the iPods have some feature the Sansa lacks in a generic sense (as opposed to compatibility with some particular vendor-specific application), but I'd be pretty surprised if that's so. The Sansa is working fine for me, so I can't think of any reason to compare features.

Sometimes simplicity is exactly what the doctor ordered. I too couldn't care less about all those "other" features on my Sansa or an iPod. I just plug my Sansa Clip into my computer, drag & drop whatever files I want and go. I use it all the time while cycling and doing yard work. It also didn't cost me a small fortune so if it should get lost or broken it won't break the bank when I replace it.

Kurt
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Everyone discourages rooting/jailbreaking in the strongest way,

Not everyone.

LG (through Verizon) doesn't seem to mind at all, it's pretty easy - even though Motorola is such a pain that I'll never consider getting another Motorola phone for myself.

The Nook Color is somewhat difficult to root, but it can be done - on top of which, if there's a bootable OS on its SD card it will boot that instead of the resident OS. And you can make such an SD card image on any computer if you have a way to connect the SD card to it.
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(By the way, you never answered my question as to whether you consider Windows Explorer to be "built in" to Windows or not.)

Forgive me. I assumed you were being sarcastic (or insulting). (And perhaps you were.) Yes, I consider Explorer to be built-in to Windows.

The Sansa is working fine for me, so I can't think of any reason to compare features.

Perhaps the iPod has features you'd actually very much like, but if you don't know about them, and choose to remain ignorant about them, then you won't miss them.

Ignorance is bliss (so I've heard).
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"Ignorance is bliss (so I've heard)"

Apparenty so is sanctimony.
B
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I wouldn't know. I make no claim of moral superiority, and I'm certainly not in a state of bliss!

(I'm in the state of Michigan, which is about as far from the state of bliss as one can imagine!)
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stevenjklein,

Perhaps the iPod has features you'd actually very much like,

Good point. Maybe it does.

Phil
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