Message Font: Serif | Sans-Serif
 
No. of Recommendations: 2
Hello abbiesdad, rogershera,'38packard, fergen. What I said about J&J is true, and its not just J&J. Its just that the bigger you are... The industry also is positioned for a huge fall. Let me give you a quick update: They haven't found major cure in years. The number of significant breakthrough drugs can be counted on one hand: Lipitor, (Pfizer) Fosomax(Merck) Avandia (GlaxoSK) and Viagra (Pfizer) The rest is the same old - few new molecules, few new ideas. The supposed R&D that goes on is (65%) to evergreen existing pills - longer acting versions, different forms of the same old (liquid, patch etc.) or they combine it with some other active ingredient.In a recent issue of the Journal of the Ammerican Medical Association, Harvard University Professors advise physicians not to prescribe new drugs to their patients because their safety has not been established DESPITE FDA APPROVAL. Adverse reactions is the leading cause of death in the U.S.
A study by the National Institute for Health Care Management just reported that only 15% of new drug approvals in the nineties were for new active ingredients and provide significant improvement over existing drug therapies. How long do you think it will be before the public wakes up and stops paying outrageous prices for a myriad of new pills, all of which cause side effects and pose risk, and most of which do little or nothing for their health? Between 1993 and 2000 seven lethal drugs, one of them Propulsid -killed officially 1002 people and had to be withdrawn. Did you own J&J stock then. Do you feel responsible? If you did, you should. The real death toll by the way is much higher. Let me be very clear: without blockbuster drugs like Propulsid and Viagra both responsible for hundreds of deaths - these companies aren't worth the paper they are written on. That's why those in charge keep them on the market even when they see them killing innocent people. And so I think every right thinking person has to ask themself - Do I want make money this way? If so, how long can the house of cards last? Note: A whistle blower recently apopeared on Oprah. He was unhappy with crooked marketing at his company (a drug manufacturer) and went to the feds. He received a finders fee of alomost $ 78 M. Yes $78 M. The company was fined $ 875 M. A couple of those at J&J - and one payout in a class action is coming soon with Propulsid- and you guys are all going to be working until you are seventy. By the way I must say I was surprised at the hostility in some of the messages I received back. Is this discussion page just for J&J employee/shills or can't anyone contribute? Or is it just a place where investors who already own J&J stock make each other feel secure. Isn't anyone interested in a contrary opinion? In case any of you doubt my claims watch the current investigation into Pfizer and Neurantin. From a rumour I hear and don't believe at all 3000 doctors took $ 60 M in kickbacks to market the drug off label up to $ 1.5 B in sales with fabricated evidence... That, by the way is illegal and should be. These are the people that protect our loved one's health? Still sure you want to make your money this way? No one at J&J would vere do anything like that I'm sure. Those of you who work for J&J please don't respond, you embarrassed yourself last time. You'd be better spend your time polishing your resume. You'll probably need it. When the time comes I promise not to say told you so. Foretold.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 5
Foretold wrote:

"Adverse reactions is the leading cause of death in the U.S."

Foretold is right; but, not specific enough. The leading cause is the body's adverse reaction to heart disease, cancer, stroke, chronic lower respiratory disease, accidents, etc.

See, you can even learn something from foretold. {;^D

Jeff
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
I never enjoyed death and disease as source of humour. About 100,000 Americans die every year due to adverse reactions to prescription drugs.
Its not as often educated witty investors. They are more often the elderly, uneducated and poor, but can be either. Of course I was referring death other than disease and old age. Is that funny?
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 4
foretold wrote:

"About 100,000 Americans die every year due to adverse reactions to prescription drugs."

Deaths due to adverse reactions to prescription drugs are nowhere near this level. Feel free to provide some sort of proof.

Jeff
My apologies to the board for responding not once, but twice.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 6
They are more often the elderly, uneducated and poor, but can be either.

So basically, these were people who were already in death throes, so you attribute their deaths to an adverse reaction to the drugs? Seems to me that if the problem were really that widespread, the FDA would be more liable than the drugmakers.

I would honestly love to see you remove your facade as a concerned/caring person so we could find out what your true agenda is. But that's not gonna happen, is it?
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 33
Foretold, welcome to TMF and to the Johnson & Johnson Board. Of course contrary views are welcome.

However, view that is presented without provision of facts to back up what you say is open to criticism.

For example,

"...What I said about J&J is true, and its not just J&J. Its just that the bigger you are"

Statements like this add little to a discussion. Simply asserting that what you say is valid does little to convince anyone that this is in fact the case.

The idea that a major drug discovery has not been found in years is nonsense. But the evidence is there for you to find if you're interested. Choosing not to keep up on the latest products being released is no reason to claim that there are none, or that those being released are insignificant.

Adverse reactions are increasing because drug therapies are increasingly being employed. Drugs are still by far the cheapest and most efficient way to treat many medical problems.

You seem a little confused about the cause of death in many of these cited instances. Have you stopped to consider that the reason many patients are being treated is because they have medical conditions in the first place? This puts them in a higher risk of death. Should such drugs only be used to treat the healthy?

Your claims seem to be supported by little more than rumour and enuendo.

I'm curious as to why anyone would pay to subscribe to TMF only to post negative comments on Johnson and Johnson. Do you not have any companies that you like? Were you hoping to get Johnson and Johnson at a lower price? Are you short Johnson and Johnson and hoping to profit by scaring out current shareholders?

If so I think you'll have to do a little better than that. By the way have you ever heard of something called a paragraph?
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
Jeff, well said. Respond as many times as you d**ned-well please.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Adverse reactions are seldom reported because it is voluntary. What doctor wants to stop in the middle of his or her busy day and send a letter or fax to the FDA that they alomost killed a patient? It is generally accepted that about 1% get reported. Those numder are extrapolated to come up with the true number. May I refer you to Public Citizen a Ralph Nader co-founded group who wrote the book on drug safety. But why do I have the feeling you already know all this?
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
I agree the FDA is also responsible in part. But they do not originate the drugs or hide the adverse reactions etc. The people who die from prescription drugs are not already in their death throws. They are victims. Many are well off. Many are educated. Some just have mild ailments. Propulsid is a heartburn drug for goodness sake, prescribed widely for infants children and seniors.
My agenda is apparent from my words I hope: ethical investing. On the other hand as I've said, this discussion page is I suspect populated by J&J shills and emplyees. Why else would my statements draw so much hostility? Is it because people don't really want to know the truth? Don't put it past J&J, one of the world's wealthiest and most powerful companies to pay people to engage on these pages. They could pay 100 people to do nothing but that and never miss the money. Don't be naive. Of course you could be one of them...
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
I suppose its the anonimity the net provides but I'm surprised at the level of hostility my comments have engendered. I apologize for my typing. It's poor I admit. I was hoping my words would be considered for their value. I can tell by your condescending tone and limted vocabulary you are a physician. You guys think you know everything? Its called the God Complex. That's why you leave the rest fo us sitting in your waiting rooms; first the big one, then the little one, to belittle us and make sure we know who is boss. Than we won't question your advise on ...pills amde by companies you own stock in. I listed four significant recent drugs. You say there are more. Name them. And then you impugned my motives. That shows you are scared. What are you scared of- losing money, or someone challenging your ethics? For the record I don't own any J&J stock accept through a mutual fund. It is minimal.
I joined TMF to better understand the market and investors. I'm not impressed with the investors so far. And since you found it appropriate to further belittle me by commenting on my lack of paragraphs, you might want to check your own spelling. The word is innuendo not enuendo. Enuendo is a gay Italian.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 6
Jeff asks for proof and the best you can do is this?

I know someone whose job is to investigate deaths due to adverse reactions for a large pharmaceutical company. According to her many deaths may be caused by drug interactions. However, most of the people who die while taking a medication are investigated not because they died because of taking the medication, but because they died while taking the medication. The actual determination of death is quite difficult. Many patients who die while on a medication are already gravely ill. The best evidence one can get in cases where a drug is thought to be the cause of death are those in which the patient is young and relatively healthy. These cases are, not surprisingly, rare.

To pull a number like 100,000 out of your butt is ... well it is what it is.

Hopefully your free membership will expire pretty soon.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 19
I suppose its the anonimity the net provides but I'm surprised at the level of hostility my comments have engendered. I apologize for my typing. It's poor I admit. I was hoping my words would be considered for their value.

The problem isn't inherently that you're talking down J&J. The problem is we have no reason to trust the integrity of your posts, so far. With your very first post, you start off in a rant (I'm sorry for the choice of words there, but it is the most fitting), without any supporting facts to back up your claims. (saying something along the lines of, "I saw it on a web site. I think it was Focus on the Family" isn't really supporting your case. [I'm not going into whether Focus on the Family is a reliable source or not].

It also doesn't help that you have no profile on TMF and all of your posts so far have been on this board and so negative, that there's no credibility to your posts. [I'm not trying to be harsh here, so I'm sorry if it seems that way.] It's the type of behavior we'd expect from a basher whose sole goal was to push down the price of a stock back when TMF was free.

Now, a profile doesn't inherently give anyone credibility, because it's obviously easy to lie on the profile. But, without a history of posts, it's all we have to go on. And, so far, your posting history isn't helping matters.

There's nothing wrong with being contrary. But, your posts seem to be more rants than anything else.

dsbrady
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
Foretold, you'll have to forgive my mispelling of the word. I get it confused with the French spelling sometimes.

You say you joined TMF to learn, but you haven't asked any questions. You haven't even posted on anything except JNJ. You haven't provided any details at all on your personal profile.

Apart from that I can see that your arguments seem based on emotion more than any rational assessment of the facts, so I won't bother to comment further at this point.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 6
You say your information is from the Focus on the Family website? Probably a great site if you're interested in Christian child psychology....not exactly my first choice for hard science/medical information.

Which brings me to this conclusion (and you'll forgive me for making assumtions, but you really leave us with no choice):

Everybody remember not too long ago the story about the religious leaders trying to enact legislation that would basically eliminate all profits from the pharmaceutical industry? Looks like you're one of them folks. Isn't that cute? Now if I can just figure out why you've singled out JNJ, one of the more upstanding companies in big pharma. Or maybe the fact that it is the most upstanding is what makes them a target? Take out the leader and the rest will fall like dominoes.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 5
p.s.

You must really have some issues if you truly think the fine folks at JNJ or any other big pharma wake up every morning thinking "how can I more efficiently kill unsuspecting people today?"
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
I suspect Foretold won't be back.

'38Packard
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
What doctor wants to stop in the middle of his or her busy day and send a letter or fax to the FDA that they alomost killed a patient?

I thought it was the drugs killing them. Which is it?


Splotto
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Foretold,

I guess I should be honored for being singled out in your post, especially since I've never responded to one of your posts before. I actually recommended your post because you do bring up some very valid points. But, I would like to clarify some things for you.

"How long do you think it will be before the public wakes up and stops paying outrageous prices for a myriad of new pills, all of which cause side effects and pose risk, and most of which do little or nothing for their health?"

Good question, but consider the alternative. If taking those pills is your only hope for controlling or curing some awful or potentially life threatening medical condition, wouldn't you take it? I sure as hell would. BTW, I thank God and Pfizer for Lipitor.

"Between 1993 and 2000 seven lethal drugs, one of them Propulsid -killed officially 1002 people and had to be withdrawn. Did you own J&J stock then. Do you feel responsible?"

Absolutely NOT! I have NEVER owned JNJ stock! I am still somewhat hesitant given the political climate, legal suits, investigations, valuation, etc. I do wish, however, that I had nabbed the shares recently at $41+. I'd be out already with a pretty nice gain. Came close.

"By the way I must say I was surprised at the hostility in some of the messages I received back. Is this discussion page just for J&J employee/shills or can't anyone contribute? Or is it just a place where investors who already own J&J stock make each other feel secure. Isn't anyone interested in a contrary opinion?"

Not from me. As I stated previously,I have not replied to ANY of your messages. I can certainly appreciate contrary opinions. But, I especially appreciate contrary FACTS. A little of each has kept me out of JNJ to this point but if the right circumstances came along, I could very easily become a shareholder. For now, I remain on the fence because for every reason I come up with to stay away from the stock, I can come up with an alternate reason to buy the stock. So, on the fence I remain.

Later...
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 6
BTW, I thank God and Pfizer for Lipitor.

ferjen...didn't you know Lipitor will make your brain explode? I read that somewhere on the web, so it must be true.

;)
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
"Don't put it past J&J, one of the world's wealthiest and most powerful companies to pay people to engage on these pages. They could pay 100 people to do nothing but that and never miss the money. Don't be naive. Of course you could be one of them..."

So, who was really on the grassy knoll???

Foretold,

Dude(tte). You have to admit you left yourself WIDE open for that one.

Do everyone a favor, including yourself - fill out your profile and interview so we all have a better idea of who you are where you are coming from. Later...
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 5
"Don't put it past J&J, one of the world's wealthiest and most powerful companies to pay people to engage on these pages. They could pay 100 people to do nothing but that and never miss the money. Don't be naive. Of course you could be one of them..."


I forgot about that one...

Sure JNJ could afford it, and we would be none the wiser, but it simply wouldn't make much sense. Consider there are only a handful of people who even read this board, and of those, there are several (e.g. rshunter, ferjen) who don't even own JNJ, what would be the point? Why would they even attempt to sway the minds of a handful of small-time investors, when they can wine-and-dine the big boys in much more personal ways than an on-line mesage board. If I had to, I would guess that with the money they would have to pay those 100 people, they could simply buy out the positions of all the people here and still have some cash left over.

...it's all a conspiracy....somebody's been watching too many X-Files :)
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
Foretold opined:

"Adverse reactions are seldom reported because it is voluntary. What doctor wants to stop in the middle of his or her busy day and send a letter or fax to the FDA that they alomost killed a patient?"

I'm afraid cause of death reporting is not voluntary.


"It is generally accepted that about 1% get reported."

By whom?

"May I refer you to Public Citizen a Ralph Nader co-founded group who wrote the book on drug safety. But why do I have the feeling you already know all this?"

Why do I have the feeling that you exagerate for effect? If this "book" is published, I'm sure you can provide a credible link to support your facts.

Thanks in advance,

Jeff
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
Just a few comments: All new drugs needs phase IV (post-FDA approval) trials not only to determine long-term efficacy but to locate side effects/adverse reactions that occur at such a low incidence that phase III trials are simply not powered to find them.

Quite simply if you put 10 million people on a drug for 5 years you'll find more adverse effects than if you put 10000 people on it for 1 year. So while you do not want to be the first to prescribe a new drug you don't want to be the last either.

It's often very difficult to isolate a particular drug as the cause of an adverse reaction, especially if it is not well documented or widely reported. As an example, the adverse reaction list of aspirin is enormous, yet it is widely prescribed. If a patient dies it may be easy to go down that list, identify an appropriate adverse reaction and conclude that aspirin contributed to the death.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 4
It's been so long since I've had to use the P-box that I almost forgot how...

Barracuda
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 3
I'm just kinda curious about the ethical investing.

My investment club won't invest in a company that we have a moral difference with.

But if you're going to not invest in a company that kills...well, you'll have a hard time investing in ANY company.

Any pharma company is out, as well as all grocery and drug stores. Resturants sell food...some of which can kill you (high cholestrol), so they're out. Trucking/shipping companies (heck transportation in general) are out with those big machines on the rails and on our highways and in the air. Not to mention all those companies that sell them parts. What's left?

Furniture companies? No, they deplete our natural resources. Media? No, have you seen the vulgarity out there?

And once you take out all the companies that want to succeed by becoming bigger (which is really just greed), well that leaves us with bankrupt companies on their way out the door.

Good luck. I like investing with my head and my heart. JNJ helps millions everyday.

Go Long,
Mike
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
I did not pull the numbers from anywhere except the FDA, Health Canada, Public citizen and many more highly credible sources. Perhaps write to Dr. Ray Woosley (previously with Georgetown U) one of the leading authority on adverse reactions. His brother died from Prepuslid. He created the list of drug that are deadly with grapefruit juice. Just type in greapfruit juice on your search engine. Yet to date not one drug comany prints the truth on their drug labels in bold print as they shoud. MAY BE FATAL IF TAKEN WITH GRAPEFRUIT JUICE. Why not? Sales my friend. Revenues. Profits. Yes people could die, but its so complcated and hard to prove as your friend says. How convenient. By the way since when was old age a reason to die? As for people who work at drug companies ask about Doug Durand. He worked for a major drug company and they insisted he break the law and kick back money to doctors etc. He had a conscience and went to the feds. The copmpany - I believe it was Tap Pharma- paid $ 875 M in fines. The whistle blower received $ $78 M in finders fee. The main purpose of any investigator for a drug company is to find another reason the person died - any reason a jury would believe. Its all part of 'risk management' and its a collossal con. Ask her how much she gets paid. Does she recive bonus? Does she get stock options. Come on, don't be naive. Would you let the airlines investigate their own crashes? If your wife died after taking a prescription drug, would you accept the drug company's explanation? Of course not. Yet you ask everyone else to. Open you eyes Phoolishphilip. With reference to your comment that you hope my free memberhsip expires pretty soon, that is only an indication you can't stand to hear what I'm saying. You don't want anyone to burst your bubble that you haven't made any investment earnings on anyone else's misery. You have blinders on my friend. Take them off to see the truth. I have received some thoughtful replies and don't intend to quit yet. Maybe some day. Until then I am...Foretold.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Good points. But as a new poster I find you guys a little set in your ways - like a private club, stogey perhaps. The stuff I was reading about the President fo J&J being a nobleman and accolades to the other execs. was pathetic. Shills for sure. You want references for facts etc. Let me ask you- did you get enough good sources on Bre-X and Nortel? What about Worldcom. You see what I mean. Because something has better detailed written documentation doesn't (in our times) reflect the quality of the message. It reflects only how badly someone wants it out there and how much they are willing to spend to get it out there; he quantity. I believe you could easily get better information off the net -perhaps right here - than through a thousand greedy brokers. How many brokers you know are wealthy by the way. I've appaarently offended a few people which was not my intent. But we have a problem in free society my friends. The lack of ethics is appalling. And don't expect Congress to solve it. It starts at home. Not every truth can be proven to you now. There are very powerful and wealthy interests who spend a great deal of time covering up the truth and planting disinformation. We must keep out wits about us. Why shoot the messenger? He is not the one who wrote the message. Is it only about money, or are we prepared to scarifice a few dollars to make statement? How much can you enjoy your retirement, paid for with stock earnings made on the misery of others? These questions need to be answered. What is your view dsbrady. Are investments in unethical companies OK? I remain...Foretold
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
What's wrong with emotion? Without it we are not human. If you try, you can rationalize anything. (WW II) Maybe a little emotion will inspire us to remember we are humanity and need each other. I have studied primariy drug companies and I am concerned with ethical investing. Wait 'til you hear the latest coming about Pfizer. Its a disgrace. Of course they just made enough money with Viagra to buy Pharmacia. How will that benefit mankind I wonder. These major companies have more money them many countries. They are a power unto themselves. They buy whatever they want- including researchers and doctors. What kind of people offer illegal kickbacks to doctors to illegally sell their drugs beyond the indications? What kind of dcotors take the money? Do you really want to participate in all this as an investor? Does this concern you or are you happy as long as you personally make money? These questions need answers. I am just surpirsed I'm the only one asking them on TMF.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 5
With reference to your comment that you hope my free memberhsip expires pretty soon, that is only an indication you can't stand to hear what I'm saying. You don't want anyone to burst your bubble that you haven't made any investment earnings on anyone else's misery.

Go to church bub, it plays better there. As for me, I prefer scientific facts. Facts that you conveniently ignore. It's interesting that you use anecdotal evidence in your emotional appeal. If you want to go on a holy crusade there are much better targets out there than medicinal manufactures. Try Philip Morris' board, or perhaps McDonalds. Hell if you want to target drug intereactions why not target the interaction between animal fat and carbohydrates?!? Now there's a killer.

What are you, nineteen? You just took a course on the Sociology of Ethics? Gotta love your fanaticism. As for my wife, she's doped up pretty good right now one about a half dozen pharmas. Bring on the drugs, baby. We live in a PHARMACOPIA!!

PhoolishPhilip
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 16
Foretold,

I have just about had enough of your unsubstiantiated BS.

Let me start at the beginning of my inside experience with JNJ. I was hired as an Independent Contractor in the IT department of one of their operating companies back in 1996 and left in July, 2000 for a six-month sabbatical. In this position, I had first hand experience with high-level and mid-level JNJ management as well as administration "worker bees". I had responsibility for 2 main systems both dealing with that operating company's direct Sales Force who dealt directly with physicians.

Have you ever read JNJ's Credo? You ought to - here's a link (more than you've provided so far). http://www.jnj.com/who_is_jnj/cr_index.html Here's the one for US employees: http://www.jnj.com/who_is_jnj/cr_usa.html

There is ABSOLUTELY no question in my mind that just about EVERY employee at JNJ knows about, understands, and agrees with JNJ's Credo. In the facility I was in, they had the Credo nicely framed and posted in a number of very conspicuous places. Every new employee is handed the Credo on their first day and are expected to understand and abide by it.

I very much take exception to many claims in your last post, but this one especially. What kind of people offer illegal kickbacks to doctors to illegally sell their drugs beyond the indications?

OK. First hand experience - JNJ has a policy to not "pay" doctors. They ABSOLUTELY will not allow it - not directly nor indirectly. JNJ does support doctors with research grant funding for clinical trials and feedback, but does not pay doctors for prescribing their drugs.

Another anecdote that I have relates to this operating company's sales force commissions system. In my last year there, I was asked to re-architect the commissions system as the old one was not flexible enough for their ever increasingly complex commissions structure. During the course of our analysis, we discovered that there was an obscure "bug" in the process which had gone unnoticed for the past 3 years. In effect, the result of the "bug" was that the sales reps were not getting fully compensated according to the formula for "indirect sales".

When I reported the identification of the bug to my direct manager, he immediately notified the Director of Sales, who in turn notified the Director of Human Resources. It got all the way to the President (who is a Corporate Director). We were told to stop development of the new system, fix the old system and RE-RUN the commissions calculations over again for the past three years. This was a monumental task, as old data and programs needed to be restored from tape, the system set up to look like three years ago, and everything re-calculated. I had to make a presentation to the Board of Directors concerning how the bug got there (testing was not performed thoroughly), what the overall underpayment amounts were (with interest) and how to make the sales reps whole. (Some of whom were no longer with the company, but were still going to be compensated).

At every turn in the development of that issue, Management always said, "We want to do the right thing" (even if that meant that some heads would roll.) Eventually, the National Sales Manager took the hit and "resigned", but the sales reps were compensated fairly.

Last but not least, your ranting about God and ethics and profits is off the mark in my opinion. I am a Christian, I believe in God, and I invest in JNJ and other companies (you can check my profile - I have mine filled in). http://boards.fool.com/Profile.asp?uid=34137 I sleep well at night knowing that I invest in good companies who do their best to make great products and make a fair profit. God has absolutely nothing to do with my investment choices. (You can tell by the performance of my portfolio!)

Enough said. Your posts are getting more legible, but the substance (with facts) is still not there.

'38Packard
Very Long JNJ
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
J&J is big. But is it ethical? Here's a little history. In 1998 Bill Clinton was taking Propulsid with a contraindicated drug. Contraindicated means you never combine these two things (drugs or conditions) becaue the benefits wil never outweigh the risks. Upon investigating his administration discovered the previous deaths and level of danger from Propulsid and how widely it was prescribed, as well as a massive long list of contraindications - offcially forty but in reality close to 100 - perhaps the longest of any drug in the world not prescribed for life threatening conditions. They were about to order J&J for the first time in history to put a black box warning on the bottle of pills patients get in their hand saying this drug may be fatal... The word fatal almost never appears in warnings although it should, and had never appeared in any Propulsid warnings before. Make no mistake this was a revolution in the industry. Since the regulators in the other 170-odd countries that approved Propulsid usually follow FDA lead, J&J went ot the FDA and made a sweetheart deal -they would do it "voluntarily" as a "pilot" project. This avoided the warnings in the other countries. So in September 1998 they did so. In the UK and Canada and everwhere else they did nothing. Question: If a warning could save lives in the US, why not the other countries? Isn't a life a life? And why not let patients decide for themselves if it's for them? What did J&j have to lose? There is only one answer. By 1999 Propulsid hit $ 1B in sales in North America alone. J&J didn't want to risk stopping the greedy train. The body count continued to grow until March 2000 when it was withdrawn. Ihope this story which is factual and you will nevr see in an annual report is the kind fo informatyion you have asked for.

No I'm not a religious nut. I believe in fair profits. But I agree that there may be some drugs in the future so important to world health that they should not belong to any company. For example if there was cure for aids. Lets ask you a question. Do you think the human genome should belong to a private company? Remember this the map of human genes holding immeasureable potential to defeat disease and human suffering. Well Bill Clinton and Tony Blair said not and I agree. What if someone discovered a cure for aids? I would suggest they should get a fair ROE and the drug be open for prouduction world wide. You may not have noticed but 25 million people on the subcontinent are HIV positive and its growing fast. Twenty six drug companies banned together to stop South Africa from copying aids drugs to try and stop the spread of this huge threat to world heaLth. They tried to claim that Africans should pay full retail for drugs that would cost them a months wages for one dose. Then one day they just didn't show upo in court, before they were shamed out by world opinion. This is the best example of greed and capitalism gone rampant I can imagine. Why should a few hundred thousand stockholders in wealthy countries hold the rest of the world at ransom for their health cnfrost? By the way am I the only one who noticed that countries where people are rich aren't the greatest source of terrorism? And they don't terrorize poor countries?
I would aargue that It's not only right, but in our self interest to help poor countries and share wealth. Because if we don't, someday they will simply come and take it. (Christ was not only the greatest moral genius, but a street smart guy as well) And we certainly can't rely on the greediest people on earth, the most profitable companies - drug companies to make moral decisions for us. They've already shown they are prepared to let 25 million people die to preseve their drug patents. Does this make me a religious nut, or a clear thinker? Does anyone share my concerns?
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
They wake up thinking how can I make more money without being sued successfully. That's about it.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
You suspect I won't be back. Why? Because I've ben challenged and made to feel unwelcome? Do a lot of people come and go on the J&J board? That's because you guys sit around agreeing with each other all day. I'm offering new information. You may not want to hear it. But at least it's real.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Doctors don't read the warnings because they are in tiny print, contain hundres of words, are confusing, offer a false sense of security,and mislead with false numbers. Example: A high voltage box says: DANGER DO DO NOT OPEN. It doesn't have a three page fine print description in cryptic language. A recent study out of the JAMA psoves they don't read them. The drug companies on the other hand benefit because the sales continue to climb. Check out a website nofreeluch.com It will scare you. Our doctors are on the take, everything from free lunches while in training to cups and pens to weekends in Nassau. They get paid thousands per patient for studies. If the studies are going bad for the drug they are yanked and the doctor can't talk about them. Do you think any drug company President would authorize $ 100,000 expense to take a bunch of doctors on a ski weekend if the VP of sales couldn't prove it would result in new sales? Do you think a doctor who just spent a weekend of free skiing, bed and booze makes an objective decision about the drug he was there to hear about on behalf of his patients? Lets not be naive. The system is totally corrupt. Who is more at fault? The courts will decide. But how would you feel as doctor if you had just been paid a huge amount of money for a clinical study of a drug, recommended it, and you suspected it killed an infant patient? Ask Gage Steven's parenst whose doctor told them Propulsid was OK for infants and the baby died in his sleep. (Check this on the net)Guess what, at first they blamed it on SIDS until the coroner got wise. By the way SIDS is nothing. Its a catchall they sue when they don't know the cause of death. How many other infants and adults died from Propulsid whose families don't even know? If you lost a family member in the last few years under unclear circumstances in any way why not go back and make sure they weren't taking Propuslid -thousands of people did- or any other problem drug. David Willman wrote seven articles in the L.A. times in December 2001 for which he won a Pulitzer prize. All investros should read them. Don't blame me if you don't like what you read as an investor. But it could save your life. I am...Foretold.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
Foretold wrote:

"I'm offering new information. You may not want to hear it. But at least it's real."

There's an old saying "The proof is in the pudding". You're providing Swiss cheese. On this board, we prefer pudding.

Jeff
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 4
Why should a few hundred thousand stockholders in wealthy countries hold the rest of the world at ransom for their health cnfrost?

Because we can, that's why. We were the only ones with big enough cojones to invest our money in it. You seem to think that good health is a right. Well, it's not. Go ahead and check the Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc., etc. It's nowhere in there, is it? We have absolutely no responsibility to these other countries. We already give them money hand-over-fist. And they're so grateful that they would stab us in the back at the first chance. Why further support them with free drugs?

They've already shown they are prepared to let 25 million people die to preseve their drug patents.

Which 25 million?

Still not backing things up, huh? When will you learn? We're still waiting for your first substantiated fact.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
They wake up thinking how can I make more money without being sued successfully. That's about it.

Heck....even your pastor does that.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Thanks for your reply. I'd be interested to know hoew Lipitor helped your health in concrete terms. However, there is no doubt some drugs are critically important to health and save lives. But the companies go way too far. Why sell a potentially life threatening drug like Propulsid to hundreds of thousands of people for anon life threatning condition like heartburn, expecially when there are plenty of alternatives; change your diet,lose weight, tums, and a whole line of Zantac type drugs?
Th least they could do is provide clearly worded warnigs of the dangers and find new ways to ensure the drug is not taken when contraindicated. This they have never done uinless ordered. It hurts sales. Seven major drugs have ben pulled off the market for killing Americans since 1997. How did they get approved? Why did they stay on so long- Seldane 13 years, Propuslid 6 years. The answersare painfully obvious - greed and delusion, a wanton disregard for human life, unethical leadership. It's sad but true.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
heck out a website nofreeluch.com It will scare you.

What's so scary about a financial website?

And when it comes to wining and dining docs...what's the problem with that? If 2 companies are selling 2 drugs that treat the same condition, why wouldn't the doc buy from the company that treated him/her better? It's called competition and it's the freedom and ability to compete that has made this country so great.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
You make sarcastic comments about the net yet you participate in it daily. Why? To exchange group think? Why not just talk to yourself in the mirror? I suggest you do your own research. I was told by one drug company insider that none of the cholestoral lowering drugs has ever been clincially proven to improve anyone's health. It's a six billion dollar industry that is not proven to work. I honestly don't know if it's true, but I wouldn't take any of them. Did you know that every drug has side effects and they are mostly not found out until the reactions begin to be reported? Have you seen the idiotic commercial; where people tell others on the street they lowered their cholestoral? Its for Cherrios...quite a bit cheaper and safer.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
I perfer that my words be judged on their merits. As for the grassey knoll, don't tell me you believ it was a lone gunman? I didn't even think there was anyone left who believes that.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
All I am saying is with so many employees I am sure they or their public relations company monitor all publications and probably also this website. You can be sure the executives at J&J get a thick printout of clippings ever morning -anything that mentions J&J or any subsidiary. That's a fact. Numerous writers also monitor these web sites and discussion boards. But look back at the comments from last week caling the President a "nobleman" and all that hero worship stuff.
Are you saying that's not planted? Come on. Do you really know who you are talking to? I think my position is clear.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 16
Have you seen the idiotic commercial; where people tell others on the street they lowered their cholestoral? Its for Cherrios...quite a bit cheaper and safer.

Actually, Cheerios has a very long list of side effects that have been suppressed by the manufacturer in their overwhelming blood/money lust. Luckily for them, the FDA does not require package inserts for cereal. The list of side-effects includes, but is not limited to: runny nose, nausea, cramps, vomiting, diarrhea, hair loss, swelling of limbs, diabetes (because most people cannot choke them down without a pound of sugar on top), amputations (resulting from the diabetes), leprosy, impotence, schizophrenia, epileptic seizures, and in cases of prolonged use it causes myriad different cancers. Cheerios has been officially responsible for over 350,000 deaths worlwide, although the actual number of deaths is significantly higher (only about 1% of these deaths are ever actually reported). If you don't believe me, look it up on the web.

And don't even get me started on Honey Nut Cheerios.....
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
The book is called Worst Pills Best Pills. Its close to release of its third or fourth edition. It's by Dr, Sidney Wolfe and Larry Sasich. Propulsid was on their "do not take" list in 1999. If you take prescription drugs or your chidren, or parents, get it. It could save your life or theirs. By the way this book has earned over $ 2 M in royalties which funds theri activities.. Public Citizen never takes any company money nor any governmnet money. They have the highest level of integrity in the public interest possible. look them up on the web. Regards...Foretold.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Aspirin is the most common drug involved in adverse reactions, normally happening when people take too much. But no one is saying it shoiuld be withdrawn. It could however, have better warnings. Fro example how many of you knew this? Public Citizen now recommends that people not take a new drug for seven years. That's because companies only test them on healthy males and only sometimes in a test group of 3000. If death occurs 1/10,000 they won't know until the drug is sold to a lot of people and some die. I wouldn't want to be one. On the other hand I don't mind if I never take a drug I don't really need. Foretold.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
It's been so long since I've had to use the P-box that I almost forgot how...

Phew! I wondered what all the traffic was about. Do you people know what a troll is? You can not argue or reason or debate with a troll. Their purpose is not to debate. Use your frowny face and get on with life. Anybody know when the next Hogan's Heroes marathon is?

dcanfiel




Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
What is your view dsbrady. Are investments in unethical companies ok?

I try to invest in ethical companies. Not every company is completely ethical. But, I try to invest in companies that don't go against my beliefs. So, I don't invest in tobacco companies. I don't really invest in companies that produce alcohol (though I support them by buying their products :) ).

Drug companies can be a gray area. They make seemingly obscene products, but they also can help people. I tend to doubt the good ones would intentionally keep products on the markets that are killing people. Yes, there are adverse reactions to medicines, but does that mean the medicine is bad? Or, is the doctor/pharmacist's responsibility to maintain a database to make sure the patient isn't doing/taking other things which can cause those reactions (assuming the interactions are already known)?

dsbrady
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
diabetes (because most people cannot choke them down without a pound of sugar on top),

Hey, I love Cheerios just as they come out of the box! One of my staple foods. :-)

dcanfiel
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Thank you for your reply. I certainly did not want to imply anything about your personal ethics. When I asked about pay-offs to doctors I was referring to Pfizer. The story will break soon. J&J does it far more surrepticiously. They finance clinical studies with opinion leaders and various other ways. I think I understand your thinking.
To understand my thinking please consider the fact that I don't think doctors should get their drug information from commissioned sales reps at all. In fact I don't think reps. should be paid on commission. Docs are supposed to be the learned intermediaries who objectively recommend drugs for our families. Instead of reading the documentation from the FDA they spend five minutes with a drug company rep. who usually comes by with little gifts of coffee cups, pens, free lunches ...you know... Now with car salesman we already know the car has passed very stringent safety standards set by the government and industry. So even if he lies, or leaves out a few key cautions we are hopefully safe. But with drugs, especially new ones no one really knows. Do you want your wife or mother taking a drug that the doctor learned about only from a commissioned (or bonussed) sales rep? Not me. There have been studies that show drug company detail men do not generally give safety messages about drugs. There is one drug company sales rep for every nine doctors in the US. Does that scare anyone? They know by doctor what prescriptions they write. That's right. They know what prescriptions your doctor writes.(not by patient name but by volume. They buy that information from your pharmacy or through IMS) They don't waste time wth "low scrip" docs. They spend their itme with "high scrip" docs.- the ones who make them all their commission. And I reiterate they don't spend much time telling docs about drugs found out to be killing people like Propulsid. With all due respect credos on the wall and saying "we want to do the right thing" is not the same as doing the right thing.
Taking a drug off the market that is selling a billion a year because 300 people have died..that's the right thing and that's what J&J refused to do until ordered by the FDA. And that's no BS my friend.
By the way I am puzzled that you think your portfolio is doing well because God has nothing to do with your investment decisions. That implies that you believe ethical investment is a losing proposition. Think what that implies about our entire system. It isn't. You can invest ethically and still make money. You just might make a little less. It's a question those who try to do what's right must answer.
Are we prepared to make a little less to leave a better world to our children? The courts and government will soon act to put an end to all this corruption and the roof will cave in for unethical drug companies. When that happens the ethical investors will do pretty well.
Those blinded by larger and larger profits will have a problem. Its a new day.Remember where you heard it first...Foretold.


One thing you said intrigued me very
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
If you wish to challenge anything I've said do so. Or if I can refer you to a reliable source with integrity. Which statements bother you?
I can back up every one.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
Public Citizen now recommends that people not take a new drug for seven years.

I'm sure that will go over well for people with a very poor prognosis (such as 1-2 years to live) for whom a new drug is available.

dsbrady
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Because as a patient I would think you want your doctor to choose the best drug for you..OR NO DRUG AT ALL IF THAT'S WHAT'S REALLY BEST -based on an objective professional decision, not based on who bought him or her the best baseball tickets. Is that so hard to understand?
Don't tell me doctors don't feel a debt of gratitude when they take the free trips and cameras and expensive diners. Drug comapies spend hundreds of millions based on these debts of gratitude to prove you wrong. Log onto nofreeluch.com to see what clear thinking docs say.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Not mine...but many. That doesn't make it right.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
cnfrost you win. You are just too witty for me. Its all a big joke isn't it? I hope you and your family members never suffer from a prescription drug reaction. But the odds are not that good. They number in the millions yearly. I will not respond to you again. Best wishes... Foretold.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
Foretold, your confrontational and inflammatory style without specific substantiation of your claims does not add any weight to your arguments. Your method of making sweeping blanket statements of how drugs work and do not work as well as how the medical establishment works without providing direct proof, not in the form of a vague reference to some professor/doctor somewhere in some journal or edition of JAMA do not add credibility.

You seem to be rather obessessed about propulsid. While it no longer may have much utility as a first-line agent for reflux it does play a role in treating various types of refractory gastric motility problems. The actual numbers that you misquoted are that there were 341 documented reports of heart rhythm abnormalities including 80 reports of deaths associated with the drug. While that number may underestimate the total number of adverse reactions you have no proof of what the actual numbers may or may not be.

http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/answers/ans01007.html

From the remainder of your posts I'm sorry to see you're not here to generate healthy debate from an unpopular viewpoint or to educate people, rather just to cause trouble. I won't answer any more troll posts.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
I think there is a point when there are enough serious drug reactions that the drug should be called a bad drug and pulled. Absolutely. Seven major drugs have been pulled since 1997 for thsoe reasons. For the rest clearly worded warnings in bold print for the docs, pharmacists and patients would be a big step. Why have they never done this? Why do thay alwaya wait until the FDA orders them to? Foretold.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
I don't think they mean that for those with life threatening conditions.
There is always a balance of risk. The point is does ths risk make sense for the patient and does the patient make an informed decision.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
Actually, Cheerios has a very long list of side effects that have been suppressed by the manufacturer in their overwhelming blood/money lust. Luckily for them, the FDA does not require package inserts for cereal. The list of side-effects includes, but is not limited to: runny nose, nausea, cramps, vomiting, diarrhea, hair loss, swelling of limbs, diabetes (because most people cannot choke them down without a pound of sugar on top)....

That's why you're supposed to eat the FROSTED Cheerios! They're much healthier IMO.

LMAO,

TrekkerMike
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
Would you let them die rather than see your stock value drop a little. (In reality it would not drop it would rise in the long term because when people live longer they tend to buy things others make. You might want to read about this sometime. Its called capitalism)

Another faulty theory. If they can't afford to buy something as important as medical treatment, what makes you think they can afford to buy anything else? In actuality, they are more likely to die of starvation than anything else. What are you doing about that?
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 6
<<Yet to date not one drug comany prints the truth on their drug labels in bold print as they shoud. MAY BE FATAL IF TAKEN WITH GRAPEFRUIT JUICE.>>

Why then don't you start having paranoid delusions about all of those murderous evil producers of grapefruit juice? Perhaps you could widen your crusade to include all companies (and their filthy investors) of citrus products? Or do you save your sad and borderline psychotic obsessions for fortune 500 companies?

I don't mean to discourage you; if nothing else you've provided for some good entertainment on a slow Thursday evening.....say hi to Elvis for me.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Oh my! I haven't had the chance to use this in a VERY LONG TIME but here goes:

Foretold added to your Ignored Fools list.

This message was written by Foretold, an author you chose to ignore.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Foretold
You sit on your ass staring at a computer terminal, counting your money believeing somehow you earned it all.

You are getting out of line now, bub. Time for you to take a hike. Ed
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
And you forgot the "milk" anti-reactions....

Actually, Cheerios has a very long list of side effects that have been suppressed by the manufacturer in their overwhelming blood/money lust. Luckily for them, the FDA does not require package inserts for cereal. The list of side-effects includes, but is not limited to: runny nose, nausea, cramps, vomiting, diarrhea, hair loss, swelling of limbs, diabetes (because most people cannot choke them down without a pound of sugar on top), amputations (resulting from the diabetes), leprosy, impotence, schizophrenia, epileptic seizures, and in cases of prolonged use it causes myriad different cancers.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
sheez, I'll never eatem again.......<g> but then I don't have to, I'll juz buy the stock....

KBM (fire-storm starter)
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
Foretold wrote:

"If you wish to challenge anything I've said do so. Or if I can refer you to a reliable source with integrity."

I believe this has already been done, ad nauseum; I'm waiting on your response/reliable source.

Here's one example:

You wrote:

"It is generally accepted that about 1% get reported." You were speaking to deaths due to adverse reactions.

I asked:

"By whom?"

With bated breath,

Jeff
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
Foretold wrote:

"I think my position is clear."

I agree with this post. {;^D

Jeff
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Don't take it from me. Do your own research. While you're doing ot don't take any medication with grapefruit juice.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Don't take it from me. Do your own research. While you're doing ot don't take any medication with grapefruit juice.

That did it for me. Into the P-Box you go. You have he distinct honor of being the only poster on the Fool who is in my P-Box. Don't bother to respond, I won't see it. ;-)

'38Packard
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Its brey interesting to me that you don't want to hear what I am saying. The qustion is why. Did it ever occur to you I might be right?
what harm is there in hearing contrary points of view? Because as a new poster I have to tel you, you guys can type away all day and agree with each other, but what's the point? Someone new comes on the board and you guys dump all over him. Yes I admit I'm sort of a wet blanket. But its only with fresh ideas that things get better.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
I was replying to someone who said we owe the 25 million people in the sub continent who are HIV positive nothing. I had suggested it was the humane thing to do and the wise thing to do to allow them to copy aids drugs without huge rotalties. He said there is no right to health in the constitution. I maintain our humanity demands higher standards than are in the constition. as the most blessed people on earth we shold share our wealth. In fact if we do so, it will come back to us.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Try Public Citizen out of Washington, co-founded by Ralph Nader. The FDA will tell you the same thing or close. Health Canada will tell you the same thing. I thought everyone knew. Look up Dr. Ray Woosley who published the grapefruit juice list and who's brother died from Propulsid. Try typing in adverse reactions on the search engines.

Here's the problem: if you almost died from a drug, fell over and lay panting on the ground and reported it to your doctor, he or she does not have to report it to anyone. Believe it or not. Its like the dark ages.(In Europe they do) Since the docs could face a lawsuit and it takes a lot of valuable time the vast majority don't report. Of course they also feel badly. They say it's because they aren't sure. it could have been something else etc. Then why do they take you off the drug?
The drug compnaies and FDA could act if they had an early warning system like this. Say a new drug comes out and within a month they get two hundred suspected adverse reactions reports be email and afx. They could investigate and either pull the drug or issue proper warnings.
The industry folks know they only about 1% of adverse reactions are reported. (They'll say 1-10% but that's hogwash and they know it) Yet they have never extrapolated this number out and published honest estimated numbers to the doctors. In other wors, everybody knows but no one wants to admit it. Its not good for business.

Gage steven six months old died from Propulsid. Until the Coroner woke up the cause of death was officially listed as SIDS. He went back and changed it later. How many other infants and seniors died from Propulsid? The Coronor from Guelph Ontario, Canada is investigating a pharmacist's report that 7/10 people (the total #)in the ICU who were administered Propuslid over two years died. Yes 7/10. That's because Propuslid had a huge number of contraindications that J&J knew about and didn't communicate to the doctors or patients very well at all. They practiced small print warnings knowing no one reads them. Its great for sales but bad for life. In the US patients got a black box warning on the pill container in 1998. In Canada they did not get this warning because the FDA had no jurisdiction. When the 7/10 story breaks coroners all over the world will begin looking at previous deaths, attributed to other causes such as a weak heart(?) or SIDS. Families will be searching their loved one's medical files. Propulsid, thought to be responsible officially for 300 deaths world wide will probably grow to thousands. That's how deaths due to adverse reactions get covered up. Thankfully there are honest people out there who have revealed the truth. You can't solve the problem until you admit you have it.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Someone tries to save your life and this is how you behave? Do your own research. Grapefruit juice is broken down by the P4503A4 enzyme. So are about half the drugs on the market. In layman's terms when the enzymes become engaged in breaking dwon the graepfruit juice thay are not available to break down the drugs, which can build up to a toxic level and stop you heart. The list of drugs in on the net. Why are you afraid of the truth?
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
Someone tries to save your life and this is how you behave?

Personally, I'd just make sure I don't drink grapefruit juice. Since that seems to be the common denominator, it's easier to get rid of the GF juice than try to keep track of which drugs interact with it.

dsbrady
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Foretold, you win.

Foretold added to your Ignored Fools list.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Thank you. I left one last post with jammerh. Best wishes.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
<<You can't solve the problem until you admit you have it. >>

Says your therapist, to be sure.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 5
Foretold,

Just finished reading the thread. Absolutely entertaining stuff!! Complete rubbish of course, but read as a whole excellent laugh.

The well-meaning posters who responsed needn't have wasted their time. Reminds me of a guy on the NTX board at Fool.co.uk. Brianshe. He spits out the same hyped up vitriole with no basis in fact. Turns out he's a bitter investor who bought at the highs of 2000 and is just plain mad at the world and anyone who owns that stock.

Thanks. I haven't enjoyed a thread like that for some time.

Chateaubriand
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
Hi Foretold

I saw one of your "end of the world" posts a few weeks ago. You're of course welcome to say whatever you want truth or lie, but I really question your motives.As you say yourself For the record I don't own any J&J stock accept through a mutual fund. It is minimal., so are you simply trying to get on people's nerves. Have fun trying to create some market hysteria. The fool is definetly the wrong place for that I think. Even if all you say about JNJ's medical research being reiinvested into the same old drugs with limited new drugs coming out, the beauty of JNJ is that they are SO MUCH MORE then just drugs. For that alone I don't really worry or pay attention to anything you say,sorry to say.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 4

Or is it just a place where investors who already own J&J stock make each other feel secure. Isn't anyone interested in a contrary opinion? In case any of you doubt my claims watch the current investigation into Pfizer and Neurantin. From a rumour I hear and don't believe at all 3000 doctors took $ 60 M in kickbacks to market the drug off label up to $ 1.5 B in sales with fabricated evidence... That, by the way is illegal and should be. These are the people that protect our loved one's health? Still sure you want to make your money this way? No one at J&J would vere do anything like that I'm sure. Those of you who work for J&J please don't respond, you embarrassed yourself last time. You'd be better spend your time polishing your resume. You'll probably need it. When the time comes I promise not to say told you so. Foretold.


Well, this sure is a smear. Somebody said a long time ago that a pack of mistruths and distortions are made more credible by the occasional inclusion of facts. That is what I see here.

Not enough chewy facts or hypotheses to get my teeth into, however.

To clear the decks, I do not work for J&J or its affiliated companies, I hold no financial interest in their activities, although I have consulted for them.

To thoroughly dissect your package would require a post mortem worthy of the famous Japanese-American medical examiner from Los Angeles.

A few points, however:

1)Mrs. Dole (a Republican, by the way, must be terriblly shocking) has voiced her views vis a vis "just because the pill is a different color" isn't a valid reason for extending or expanding the patent life cycle. I would extend that to abominations such as Schering's desloratadine (Clarinex), a simple derivative of the parent drug, Claritin. There is no evidence I have seen to indicate any significant benefit or difference in outcomes from using Claritin vs. Clarinex.

On the other hand Dow's work that was later handed on to AHP or whoever is marketing Allegra (second order metabolite of the original non-drowsy antihistamine) is a completely different story; the new product does not have the deadly drug interaction effects with antfungals and other drugs that the parent drug posessed, along with Janssen's apparently disconinued Rx 'non drowsy antihistamine'.

That is not a matter of changing the name or color of a pill.
That was a matter of saving lives, providing a safe and useful product, and additional insight into how all these bload/brain barrier specific drugs work. And Merrill-Dow had no more idea of this bizarre e450 hepatic enzyme interaction than did anyone else; you can only do so many clinical trials.

I won't bother with enumerating and referencing the remainder of my response to what seemingly is a broadside attack across the entire research pharma and biotech industry.

The research pharma and biotech industries are in business to keep people alive and to improve the quality of life for patients, to produce effective diagnostics, and in the larger picture, the entire "medical empire" is engaged in an age-old struggle to keep people alive and functional. The very notion that any company would deliberately and knowingly market a drug, reagent, medical device, diagnostic system, radiotherapy product, or even rubber gloves, that could harm a patient or practitioner flies in the common sense of basic economics, even if you wish to discount the notion that most companies in this business are ethical. Basic virology and bacteriology ought to teach you that: you do not profit from killing the host.

I have either worked with, consulted for, or known and kibitzed with people from J&J, GE Medical Systems, 3M, Pharmacia-Upjohn, Eli Lilly, ORACLE, Siemens, people on the Human Genome Project, USAMRIID, the CDC, and elsewhere, and I find both the content and presentation of your "message" to be little short of something that could be brought in as evidence of libel, or as a very unsubtle attempt at manipulating stock prices.

None of the people I have ever known or worked with would ever do anything but everything they could to help save a patient. My stepfather was a GP and my mother is a nurse of great distinction in her fields of chronic care, hospice, home health, and the elderly. I've worked in the field for years myself.

Less than 110% perfection is not good enough. Audit trails and accountability down to every study, patient, test, are minmimum standards.

As far as your attacks specifically on Lipitor, Fosamax, Avandia, Viagra, Propulsid (Cisapride) and whatever others you thought of but perhaps found difficulty in spelling their names, let me say this about that.

Lipitor belongs to the class of Acetyl-Co-A inhibitors as does Zocor and perhaps 3 others. Patients with hepatic or renal problems should not take any drugs in this class except under extreme supervision including blood testing weekly. Lipitor is cheaper than Mevacor because the manufacturer of the former could not afford a CAST-like years long study to prove reduction in morbidity or mortality from cardiac and cerebrovascular disease. But any prescriber with a brain in their head should realize nealy any of the -statin Acetyl-Co-A inhibitors will produce similar clinical results.

Cisapride is a very specific drug for a very specific use; I am sure your death toll analysis will reveal nearly all severe reactions and mortality were due to drug interactions in the liver enzyme systems with other drugs, such as the oral antifungals. Cisapride had been very helpful both in treatment of GI disease and also in certain GI post operative conditions such as stasis of the GI tract. I am surprised you do not lay this at the feet of physicians and other prescribers and pharmacists, where it more properly belongs.

If it were not for me sleeping across two chairs to maintain constant observation (when awake, I am only human, despite rumours to the contrary) in the acude recovery wing of a major heart institute, a patient would have been given an overdose of a powerful stimulant at 2 AM, hours after complex heart surgery that had him on the table for about 6 hours. This, despite clear orders and documentation he was not to receive any medications except for pain, sleep or sedation, and cardiac stabilization. We straightened that right out in the hall, after the Pt.s room door was closed.

Neurontin (gabapentin) is one of the safest antiepileptic drugs on the market, for the types of seizures it is indicated. My aunt had epilepsy since childhood and started with the bromides and phenobarbital during the War, and then Dilantin (phenytoin), Mysoline (primidone), various half-side barbiturate derivatives, Diamox (acetzolamide, a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor), the benzodiazopines, carbamazapine (Tegetrol) valproic acid / divalproate, and has been seen by some of the finest experts in the region.

Now that she has Parkinson's Disease progressing rapidly, well, the other stuff is on the second shelf. Don't let it bother you for all the times I've begged God in prayer to help all the researchers to come up with something to help my aunt and my mother's multi-infarct or Alzheimer's dementia patients. Or my best friend that had a stroke a few months ago, or my father who had a hemiplegic stroke and has to use a walker, after dodging bullets, grenades, and mortars in the thick of the fighting in Korea.

Viagra has been extensively marketed and I have to admit in this one case, somewhat irresponsibly. Cautionary warnings in voice and in text should appear on all the TV ads to not take the drug if you have a cardiovascular condition, and "Only your doctor can tell you if this medicine is right for you; make sure you tell your doctor about any medicines or medical conditions you may be being treated for" I would like to see. But Pfizer can't be blamed for the the Viagra mills, no more than AH Robins (phenfluramine [Pondimin] [and later, Redux] and the assorted makers of extended release phentermine should be held responsible for despicablly incompetent patient screening, entry testing and monitoring. My stepfather was against diet drugs period, unless as a last resort, and the Pt. got a full workup, including a blood panel, unrinalysis, ECG, and history, and an assessment for liklihood of drug abuse or transfer and a trial period with a monitored, regimented dietary program.

In unguarded moments at dinner, he said sometimes that his most effective programs were ones where between thyroid hormone, a mild anorexic drug, forced excercise, and diet, his successful patients lost weight because their hands shook too much to hold food on a fork. (He'd never do such a thing in real life.)

You can keep all your numbers and apparent scare tactics. Please. (Pardon me, Rodney Dangerfield, wherever you are.)

You may be, and seeminly are, very knowlegeable about the stock market and investing and cold hard cash.

My side of the business is, and will always be, people. People who could not speak coherently until they were on Risperidal for a week or so, who could not tolerate the older antipsychotics like Haldol, or God forbid, chlorpromazine.

Diabetics who can more closely monitor and titrate their glucose levels than ever before, thanks to the new oral andidiabetics and more accurate / less painful blood testing systems. And avoiding diabetic degenerative retinitis and circulatory loss contributory to neuropathy and infection.

My oldest friend's mother, who went into severe renal failure many years ago, and for whom drugs like EPO and other therapeutic advances gave her quality of life without (so many) transfusions and at least a decade of functional, quality life with her son, daughter, and husband she otherwise would not have had.

And my friend, who was born with some problem, whom the DuPont Institute took in and over a period of years performed numerous surgeries and corrective procedures, and never wanted, and indeed refused, even a penny for their efforts that extended over a decade.

So tell me bad things about the J&J Family of Companies, the RWJ Charitable Foundation, their massive endowments to the health care system and the medical and dental schools of Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey, how their grants to both the UMDNJ and St. Peter's hospital systems are evil, and how their efforts were baseborn in giving the best of care to a terminal AIDS patient, who happened to be a friend of mine.

I'll be waiting.

RSH.

Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1

My oldest friend's mother, who went into severe renal failure many years ago, and for whom drugs like EPO and other therapeutic advances gave her quality of life without (so many) transfusions and at least a decade of functional, quality life with her son, daughter, and husband she otherwise would not have had.

And my friend, who was born with some problem, whom the DuPont Institute took in and over a period of years performed numerous surgeries and corrective procedures, and never wanted, and indeed refused, even a penny for their efforts that extended over a decade.

So tell me bad things about the J&J Family of Companies, the RWJ Charitable Foundation, their massive endowments to the health care system and the medical and dental schools of Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey, how their grants to both the UMDNJ and St. Peter's hospital systems are evil, and how their efforts were baseborn in giving the best of care to a terminal AIDS patient, who happened to be a friend of mine.

I'll be waiting.

RSH


It's funny how you never get an answer back when you get really hyped up on righteous indignation; it does not seem fair, somehow. I do not like people taking cheap or perhaps more tactfully worded, inappropriate shots, at companies, people, institutions, and professions that I respect and admire, not blindly, but because of intimate contact in my work with so many people that are so admirable.

I know I must have told this story here sometime long ago, but at UMDNJ/RWJ we had a computer problem; Dr.s A, B, and C were collaborating on a joint project, all the nicest and kindest people you would ever want to meet. But data kept getting corrupted somehow. Dragging them all in a conference room, I built a truth table on the whiteboard to intersect the logic.

Dr.B told me later that I would make a fine epidemiologist; that meant a lot coming from her. "Yes, I know it's only 'The Case of The Floppy Disk', but you and I both know you used epidemilogical and public healh types of interviewing all of us culprits."

The UMDNJ/RWJ teaching hospital system, I think, is excellent, and so are all of those I've worked with who practice or teach there. MOHS surgery, pioneered there, by its repetitive microsectioning and slides after every layer, means the difference between a cured, resected, non-recurring and cosmetically complete reconstruction, and someone who doesn't have a nose anymore. I know, I went through the charts.

People are what make the business of medicine (and chemistry, biochemistry, nuclear medicine and nuclear physics, and computer science and electrical engineering) different. The grunts in the trenches make a difference, too.

Perhaps we don't have the largesse to invest funds in whatever we please; perhaps we don't have the funds, and maybe a lot of us can't even spell "largesse". Maybe some of us just work at DuPont or Agfa and make X-ray film on an assembly line, or work at New England Nuclear or at Oak Ridge to make radioisotopes for therapy or imaging; maybe some of us just make sure that annoying cotton gets stuck in the Tylenol bottles.

But we are all part of the sacred duty to save lives and to improve the quality of life, to cure when we can, and to do whatever possible to provide a dignified, pain-free, and peaceful environment as long as possible to allow patients to share their lives with those they love.

Believe it or not, to some people, a life saved, prolonged, or improved cannot be measured in any sort of coinage of which I am aware.

RSH.
Print the post Back To Top