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No. of Recommendations: 4
Venice, California, that is.

It seems the Jewish community in Venice wants to build an eruv, but it's being opposed on two grounds:

The fishing line used:
#1: is 'invisible',' and so it might injure birds that can't see it, and
#2: It obstructs views.

Am I the only one who sees a contradiction in these arguments?
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Venice, California, that is.

It seems the Jewish community in Venice wants to build an eruv, but it's being opposed on two grounds:

The fishing line used:
#1: is 'invisible',' and so it might injure birds that can't see it, and
#2: It obstructs views.

Am I the only one who sees a contradiction in these arguments?


=======================

the argument is that it obstructs human views, not the views of birds who may not be able to see it.

no contradiction.


d v
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Maybe the poles would obstruct views while the line wouldn't be visible.

Though I wouldn't post such a thought on PA, it seems to me that if hanging some string makes it ok for the Orthodox to perform activities that otherwise couldn't be done outside of the home in a given area - that a different rationale could be invented to permit the same thing and without the need for poles and string.

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the argument is that it obstructs human views, not the views of birds who may not be able to see it.

Virtually nobody can see it from the ground with the unaided eye. We're talking about clear nylon fishing line.

How invisible? Consider that the eruv should be checked every week to make sure that it's intact. This task is made almost impossible because even when standing directly underneath, it's not possible to see the fishing line.

In our community, they've had to tie small ribbons to the line, roughly half-way between the two supporting telephone poles. The ribbon appears to float in mid-air.

Dov, you might not know it, but many communities (including those with significant Jewish populations) have opposed eruvim specifically because they don't want more orthodox Jews in their neighborhood.

The city of Tenafly, New Jersey, ended up going to the Supreme Court to try and fight an eruv in their community.

The eruv had already built when the city council voted 5-0 to force it's removal. (It was built at private expense, using only phone poles owned by Verizon, with Verizon's permission. There was no issue of obstructed views or new construction or rights-of-way.)

The eruv association sued. The city won at the District Court, but the Third Circuit court overturned the decision, and the Supremes declined to hear the city's appeal.

Here are a few interesting excerpts from the Circuit Court's decision:
The primary issues presented in this appeal ... are whether the Free Speech and Free Exercise Clauses of the First Amendment allow the Borough of Tenafly, New Jersey, which has permitted various secularly motivated violations of a facially neutral ordinance, to invoke that ordinance against comparable religiously motivated acts by Orthodox Jews. Because there is no evidence that the acts in question are expressive, we hold that the Free Speech Clause does not apply. We further hold, however, that the Borough's selective enforcement of its ordinance likely violated the Free Exercise Clause. Because the other requirements for injunctive relief are satisfied, we reverse and direct the District Court to issue a preliminary injunction.

It came out that people and businesses posted all kinds of things on the phone polls there, including crosses posted by churches, none of which were opposed by the city!

At the next Council meeting, on July 8, 1999... Many of those present expressed vehement objections prompted by their fear that an eruv would encourage Orthodox Jews to move to Tenafly. A Council member whom the District Court was unable to identify noted "a concern that the Orthodoxy would take over" Tenafly. Id. at 151-52.
(Emphasis added)

In a footnote, the decision also noted that:
Both the White House and the United States Supreme Court are within the boundaries of an eruv.

The full text of the decision can be found on the Third Circuit court's website here:
http://www.ca3.uscourts.gov/opinarch/013301.txt

Hope you find this interesting.
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thanks for the post Steven.

funny enough, lat weekend after my dad and I attended the JWV meeting, we decided to go for a ride through Monsey, where his parents used to live and where I used to play as a child.

back then, there were Hasidic families, but more of the jewish community was Conservative, and in many cases, secular. Today Monsey has one of the largest concentrations of hasidim in the world.

My dad pointed out Eruvim to me and told me what they were used for, which I was unawares of. a little ironic, because dad is more secular than I am ...

we passed by Sunrise drive, where my grandparents lived and where I played as a child, and most of the old houses had been torn down and rebuild to houses that were like, huge. I guess when I was a kid and the town was largely secular and mildly religious Jews, everyone was having 1,2 3 kids, sometimes 4. Today, well, you see these young jewish women in their thirties who have 9, 10 ,11 kids. Need a bigger house for that.

and it makes one a bit wistful to go back to place you knew 40 years earlier and see it changed so much. time waits for no one, not even for
Dov Baer, the Maggid of Monsey :)

d v b6
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Though I wouldn't post such a thought on PA, it seems to me that if hanging some string makes it ok for the Orthodox to perform activities that otherwise couldn't be done outside of the home in a given area - that a different rationale could be invented to permit the same thing and without the need for poles and string.

Eruv is a concept I have struggled with in the past. Essentially one is not allowed to carry between public or private domains, or in the public domain itself. The question is what actually constitutes a public domain. For example, a thoroughfare like Times Square is clearly a public domain, and an eruv could not enclose it to permit carrying. Their is more of a question in things that are not really "public domains" under biblical definitions (specifically it involves having more than a certain number of people pass through on a daily basis). What an eruv does is "extend" and clarify what is considered a private domain for a purpose of carrying. If there is another way to make this clarification, perhaps it could be used.

-silencer
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For the ignorant (namely me), what is an eruv, and why can't jews go outside on sabbath without this "eruv"?

-TVK
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Really? Why did I think all of Manhattan was an eruv?
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I responded to it generally TVK, but I'll try to elaborate more.

On Shabbat, there are a variety of prohibited actions. Among these is carrying. Specifically, three types of carrying are prohibited.

1) Carrying from a public domain to a private domain
2) Carrying from a private domain to a public domain
3) Carrying within a public domain

Now by biblical law, there are certain things that are clearly public domains. There are also areas that are sort of questionable (called a "karmelit" (like the ocean or an open field) Specifically they have to be of a certain size, not have a roof, and have a large number of people moving through them each day. A clear example of a private domain would be your house. But what about your front yard, if it isn't enclosed? Or open spaces on a college campus?

What an eruv (which means "mixing") does is to extend the private domain and clarify what is and is not considered private domain. It cannot be built around something that is considered a public domain by biblical law.

There is also a prohibition against travelling more than a certain distance outside of a city on shabbat, but that is separate.


-silencer
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First of all, the laws of eruv are complex and I do not know them well.

There are eruvin up in various parts of manhattan, but they cannot enclose an area with more than a certain number of residents, so there could not be one around the whole city. Also, an eruv must enclose a "residential area" so central park cannot be included in an eruv. But there is one on the Upper West Side, Upper East, Downtown. It sort of demarcates a neighborhood in a way and creates a communal area.

-silencer
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Now by biblical law, there are certain things that are clearly public domains. There are also areas that are sort of questionable (called a "karmelit" (like the ocean or an open field) Specifically they have to be of a certain size, not have a roof, and have a large number of people moving through them each day. A clear example of a private domain would be your house. But what about your front yard, if it isn't enclosed? Or open spaces on a college campus?

Sorry, majorly misleading here b/c I went back to add the bit on karmelit. A public domain is "of a certain size, not have a roof, and have a large number of people moving through them each day." A karmelit is not.

-silencer
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I responded to it generally TVK, but I'll try to elaborate more.


thank you for the explanation. Is there certain rules as to how an eruv has to be built? Because drawing a chalk line around a yard seems would serve the same purpose as an invisble fishing line, namely stake the territory as private, and would not ruin the view or be a hazard to birds and very tall people.
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Because drawing a chalk line around a yard seems would serve the same purpose as an invisble fishing line, namely stake the territory as private, and would not ruin the view or be a hazard to birds and very tall people.

In short, yes. I'm not familiar with all of them, but a chalk line would not work.

-silencer
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Might someone help me with the notion of "carrying". Is this meant to mean carrying anything...a prayer book, for example?
Thanks. Jeff
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Yes. It means carrying a book, or a brick, or or something in your pocket or a tallit, or....

-silencer
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My friend who is observant walked from a hotel to a wedding in 90 degree weather, and couldn't take off his suit jacket, because it was the Sabbath.
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My friend who is observant walked from a hotel to a wedding in 90 degree weather, and couldn't take off his suit jacket, because it was the Sabbath.

That's a good example of why I could never be Orthodox. Inarguable suffering in order to more properly celebrate the alleged Day of Rest seems to take the neshama right out of Shabbat to me.


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My friend who is observant walked from a hotel to a wedding in 90 degree weather, and couldn't take off his suit jacket, because it was the Sabbath.

That's a good example of why I could never be Orthodox. Inarguable suffering in order to more properly celebrate the alleged Day of Rest seems to take the neshama right out of Shabbat to me.
================================

keeping the clothes on in hot weather is not a Torahnic mitzvah, it's just a custom. if he had taken off his coat, he would not have sinned.

and there is a large group of observant Jews generally known as 'modern orthodox' who keep kosher, keep the Sabbath, and are generally as observant as those who dress in ancient east European garb.

but they dress more modernly, many do not wear payot or have beards, and the women genrally do not wear wigs. so, there is still an orthodox path for you!

d v
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alleged Day of Rest

I found this funny, very lawyerly of you to put in the "alleged". =)

-silencer
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Is there certain rules as to how an eruv has to be built?

Yes. Many years ago I went on a camping trip, and studied hilchos eruvin (the laws of eruvim).

One of the requirements is that it must be at least 10 tefachim (hand-breadths) tall, which excludes your chalk-line idea.

I found a website that explains it, but it's extremely technical:
http://www.torontoeruv.org/asp/main.asp?Menu_Tag=eruvgeneral

The information below is paraphrased from that website.

A private domain can be fenced in with either actually fences or walls, or with "a horizontal element such as a lintel set on top of two posts to create the appearance of a doorway."

For example, a wire connecting two telephone poles.

The area must be completely enclosed -- no open sections.

The horizontal element must be located precisely on top of the pole and not on its side.

When i went on my camping trip, I wanted to be able to carry items in an out of my tent. I used 8-foot tall wood poles with screw-eyes on top. I ran a length of purple string through he holes, tied the two ends, and then erected the poles. (I used purple to make it easy to see.)

In theory, we could just use the existing phone or electric wire on the pole to designate the boundary, but it's never attached on the top of the pole.This causes a problem. One solution would be to do what I did -- to put a screw-eye on top of the poles and run the eruv wire through that. But this creates safety problems. Utility poles are arranged so that the most dangerous wires (high-voltage lines) are on top, and less dangerous lines (telephone or cable TV) on the bottom.

So what they usually do is to attach a smaller pole to the larger pole. The smaller pole can be very small. It's attached to the side of the pole, and extends from the ground to just below the telephone wire. (It need not actually touch the wire.)

The small 'pole' is not really a pole at all. It's almost always a piece of black plastic insulation of the same type used to insulate the steel grounding wires found on many (most) telephone polls. It's perhaps a half-inch wide. There's a picture of one on this page:
http://www.yistamford.org/eruv.html
(It's the vertical black thing attached to the pole.)
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Might someone help me with the notion of "carrying". Is this meant to mean carrying anything...a prayer book, for example?

Yes -- anything (or anyone) that is carried or pushed.

To give a particularly relevant example: We normally read the book of Esther on Purim. But if Purim coincides with Shabbat, we don't do it, because we can't carry the book to the synagogue.

This also includes carrying in pockets. So you can't carry your house key. There is a workaround for this: There are special belt-buckles made that allow you to attach a house-key to them. They are designed so that they don't actually work without the key. This way you are 'wearing an article of clothing' as opposed to carrying.

I've heard that some won't wear eye-glasses, but I don't actually know anybody that extreme.

I do remember a joke about some rabbi who ruled that you can drive a car on the sabbath if your seatbelt is buckled, because then you're wearing the car!
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My friend who is observant walked from a hotel to a wedding in 90 degree weather, and couldn't take off his suit jacket, because it was the Sabbath.

You must not be remembering this correctly. Weddings may not be conducted on the Sabbath, so he couldn't have been walking to a wedding on the Sabbath.

Perhaps he was walking to the aufruf?
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if he had taken off his coat, he would not have sinned.

I think she meant that he couldn't take it off mid-walk and carry it.

If he was going to shul, he'd want his suit jacket.
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Here's a picture of an eruv wire:

http://www.laeruv.com/poletop.htm

Check out the bottom photo on that page. The eruv wire is attached to the top of the light pole.

It's not at all visible to my eye.
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keeping the clothes on in hot weather is not a Torahnic mitzvah, it's just a custom. if he had taken off his coat, he would not have sinned.

False, though sin is a loaded term. He would have been violating a prohibition d'rabbanan, and possibly a torah prohibition depending on where he was.


and there is a large group of observant Jews generally known as 'modern orthodox' who keep kosher, keep the Sabbath, and are generally as observant as those who dress in ancient east European garb.


True enough, but there's no indication the person was dressed in old world clothes.


but they dress more modernly, many do not wear payot or have beards, and the women genrally do not wear wigs. so, there is still an orthodox path for you!


It is not a requirement to have a beard. Many do have peyot they're just not as long or openly displayed as you would see. And as far as hair covering, you may have a point, but this is more a lack of following one of the mitzvot than the mitzvah not applying. Everyone will ultimately find their comfort level.

-silencer

-silencer
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keeping the clothes on in hot weather is not a Torahnic mitzvah, it's just a custom. if he had taken off his coat, he would not have sinned.

False, though sin is a loaded term. He would have been violating a prohibition d'rabbanan, and possibly a torah prohibition depending on where he was.
=====================

ok, does a prohibition d'rabbanan mean that a Rabbi has prohibited that activity? if so, does it really have the weight of Halacha or Torah prohibition?

and what Torah prohibition might be in violation depending on where he was?

TIA ... d v
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You must not be remembering this correctly. Weddings may not be conducted on the Sabbath, so he couldn't have been walking to a wedding on the Sabbath.

1. If he had to walk, he may have been walking to an evening wedding (needed to leave early to arrive on time).

2. It could easily have been a wedding of non-Orthodox Jews or even non-Jews.


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1. If he had to walk, he may have been walking to an evening wedding (needed to leave early to arrive on time).

I've never heard of a Saturday-night wedding, but even if that were the case, he could wait until sunset and then drive or take a cab.

2. It could easily have been a wedding of non-Orthodox Jews or even non-Jews.

No, it could not. An orthodox Jew would not attend either type of wedding on Shabbos.
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I've never heard of a Saturday-night wedding,

While admittedly non-Orthodox (though we had a rabbi), my wedding was on a Saturday evening. In fact, would say that most weddings I have attended - Jewish and non-Jewish - have been on Saturday evening.

2. It could easily have been a wedding of non-Orthodox Jews or even non-Jews.

No, it could not. An orthodox Jew would not attend either type of wedding on Shabbos.


One more reason I could not be Orthodox . . .
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I do remember a joke about some rabbi who ruled that you can drive a car on the sabbath if your seatbelt is buckled, because then you're wearing the car!

=============================

I love logic ... seriously .... d v
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ok, does a prohibition d'rabbanan mean that a Rabbi has prohibited that activity? if so, does it really have the weight of Halacha or Torah prohibition?

Yes, it is the halacha but it is not a torah prohibition. But halacha is divided between halacha from the torah and certain other rabbinic prohibitions. This is not like a prohibition from your local rabbi, it's from the rabbis of the talmud.

and what Torah prohibition might be in violation depending on where he was?


If he was in a true public domain it would be a violation of the torah. Most rabbinic laws put up barriers to prevent inadvertent violation of torah prohibitions.

-silencer
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thanks silencer. one thing I don't understand in this particular instance is does the wearing of these particular kinds of clothing, long black coats and hats in the summertime, are these considered Talmudic rabbinic prohibitions?

I would have thought they were simply customary among East European Jews and they ahve simply retained their traditional garb.

I'm guessing that the Talmudic rabbinic prohibition is based on a common interpretation that translates into the uncomfortable garb, adn that another orthodox rabbi from a different group might interpret that differently.

d v
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<But if Purim coincides with Shabbat, we don't do it, because we can't carry the book to the synagogue.>

I asked almost this exact same question, a couple of years ago, while visiting my Orthodox DS and her husband, who live in Marlboro, NJ.

My question was what to do with the lulav & esrog, if the beginning of Succos falls on Shabbos.

I randomly extracted a book of Talmud, from the large bookcase, that contains the entire Artscroll English-translated Talmud (one book out of about 75 volumes). I randomly opened this book. The answer to the question was right there: If Succos is expected to fall on Shabbos, one should carry the lulav & esrog to shul, before Succos begins (such as, the previous day).

Talk about coincidence! What are the chances of opening to the exact question, in a library of Talmud?

I am sure that the same answer would pertain to carrying a book to shul, if Purim were to fall on Shabbos.

Wendy
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<I've never heard of a Saturday-night wedding>

DH and I were married on Saturday night...after Havdalah.
Wendy (not Orthodox)
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My friend who is observant walked from a hotel to a wedding in 90 degree weather, and couldn't take off his suit jacket, because it was the Sabbath.

You must not be remembering this correctly. Weddings may not be conducted on the Sabbath, so he couldn't have been walking to a wedding on the Sabbath.

Perhaps he was walking to the aufruf?


It was on the Sabbath, and what's worse, it was an intermarriage!!

I hope that doesn't shock you too much.
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keeping the clothes on in hot weather is not a Torahnic mitzvah, it's just a custom. if he had taken off his coat, he would not have sinned.


But then he would have had to carry it.

ps - he's conservative.
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No, it could not. An orthodox Jew would not attend either type of wedding on Shabbos.


My, the assumptions we are making today.
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keeping the clothes on in hot weather is not a Torahnic mitzvah, it's just a custom. if he had taken off his coat, he would not have sinned.

But then he would have had to carry it.

ps - he's conservative.
=======================

right, the carrying ... got it ... Shabbas is complicated ... guess he couldnt leave the coat home ...
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right, the carrying ... got it ... Shabbas is complicated ... guess he couldnt leave the coat home ...

Wedding! You know weddings.

Besides, this was Atlanta, once we were inside it was freezing cold and he needed the jacket to avoid pneumonia.
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thanks silencer. one thing I don't understand in this particular instance is does the wearing of these particular kinds of clothing, long black coats and hats in the summertime, are these considered Talmudic rabbinic prohibitions?

No. A person should dress in a dignified manner, but it's not required to dress like they did back in eastern europe. My cousins are very, very religious, and they just generally wear a suit a lot, but never anything like what you describe.


I would have thought they were simply customary among East European Jews and they ahve simply retained their traditional garb.


Yes.

-silencer
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If Succos is expected to fall on Shabbos, one should carry the lulav & esrog to shul, before Succos begins (such as, the previous day).

You probably picked up Tractate Sukkot =)

This is not the position today, but what you cite is a mishna from early in the tractacte I believe page 2 actually. Lulav and etrog are not waved on shabbat, even if shabbat is the first day of sukkot.

-silencer
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thanks again ...
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once we were inside it was freezing cold and he needed the jacket to avoid pneumonia.

According to the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), "There is no evidence that you can get a cold from exposure to cold weather or from getting chilled or overheated."
Source: http://www3.niaid.nih.gov/healthscience/healthtopics/colds/cause.htm

Likewise, Pneumonia is usually caused by pathological microorganisms. (There are other possible causes, but exposure to cold temperatures isn't one of them.)

Does the jacket have some special property that protects the wearer from the microorganisms that cause pneumonia?
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Silencer has already addressed the lulav & esrog question, but just to clarify:

We do not wave lulav & esrog on Shabbos, nor do we read Esther when Purim falls on Shabbos.

It's not at all unusual to find opinions in the Talmud that contradict current practice. in fact, there are opinions in the Talmud that directly contradict other opinions in the Talmud.

Some parts of the Talmud read like the minutes from a committee meeting, in which different opinions are expressed (often without any consensus being reached).
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I've had pneumonia twice, but that doesn't make me an expert.

The thing is these micro-orgs are all around us and possibly in our system already. Exposure to the cold just weakens our system enough to enable them to become a full fledged infection. Usually our body is strong enough to fend them off.

-silencer
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No, it could not. An orthodox Jew would not attend either type of wedding on Shabbos.

My, the assumptions we are making today.


I wouldn't normally pick on a word-use error (or spelling or grammar), but in this case you've chosen a word that results in a false accusation being made against me.

I didn't make an assumption; I made a presumption. There is an important difference.

Here's what you wrote:
My friend who is observant walked from a hotel to a wedding in 90 degree weather, and couldn't take off his suit jacket, because it was the Sabbath.

Since people usually reserve the word "observant" to describe orthodox Jews, I presumed that he was orthodox. And while is is true Conservative halacha technically requires refraining from melachah on the Sabbath, it is no secret that the overwhelming majority of Conservative Jews don't follow this observance. In over 20 years of regular attendance at Conservative synagogues, and 12 years of study at Conservative Hebrew schools, I can tell you that I never once heard any mention of the prohibition against carrying on Shabbos.

Given that you described your friend as 'observant' and implied that he couldn't carry on Shabbos, it seemed probable that we was Orthodox, and I supposed he was.

To suppose something is the base based on probability is the very definition of presume.

According to AskOxford.com:
... there is a stronger element of postulation or hypothesis in assume and of a belief held on the basis of external evidence in presume... (emphasis added)
The New Oxford Dictionary of English... provides these definitions:
assume suppose to be the case, without proof.
presume suppose that something is the case on the basis of probability; take for granted that something exists or is the case.

Source: http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/usage/assume?view=uk
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Exposure to the cold just weakens our system...

This is one of those urban legends that just won't die.

There is no evidence whatsoever that our immune systems are weakened by exposure to cold.

See, for example:
Medicine and science in sports and exercise ISSN 0195-9131
Immune function in environmental extremes. Symposium , INCONNU (2001)
2002, vol. 34, no12, pp. 2013-2020 [8 page(s) (article)] (67 ref.)

From the abstract::
This review paper will 1) present an overview of human physiological responses to cold exposure, 2) present the human studies examining the effects of cold exposure on immune responses. and 3) summarize recent experiments from our laboratories examining the effects of exercise and fatigue on immune responses during subsequent cold exposure. Based on the review of the literature, there is no support for the concept that cold exposure depresses immune function. (emphasis added)
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Well, one night camping out for a concert in the cold equaled pneumonia about a week later. That's my experience.

-silencer
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Well, one night camping out for a concert in the cold equaled pneumonia about a week later. That's my experience.

Correlation is not causation.

Did you ever camp out in the cold and not get pneumonia? I've been camping and hiking in sub-zero temperatures, and I didn't get sick. Camping in cold weather does not cause pneumonia.

Correlation is not causation.

But when I was in high school, I got pneumonia. This was in sunny Beverly Hills, California. Stress can impair immune system function, and I was diagnosed the day before I was to represent my school in the LA County Academic Decathlon. The preparation had been going on for six months, and I was extremely stressed out. (Against doctors orders, I went anyway; we won!) But none of the other team members were sick. Competing in academic competitions does not cause pneumonia,

Correlation is not causation.

Another coOn July 7, 1989, I saw a Grateful Dead concert at JFK Stadium in Philadelphia. Six days later, the building was condemned.

Does that mean that my attendance at GD concerts causes the venues to be condemned?

Less than a week after that concert, I attended another GD show at RFK Stadium in DC. It was not condemned.
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Correlation is not causation.

I am aware of this.

Did you ever camp out in the cold and not get pneumonia?

No this was the only time.

-silencer
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once we were inside it was freezing cold and he needed the jacket to avoid pneumonia.

According to the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), "There is no evidence that you can get a cold from exposure to cold weather or from getting chilled or overheated."
Source: http://www3.niaid.nih.gov/healthscience/healthtopics/colds/cause.htm

Likewise, Pneumonia is usually caused by pathological microorganisms. (There are other possible causes, but exposure to cold temperatures isn't one of them.)

Does the jacket have some special property that protects the wearer from the microorganisms that cause pneumonia?


Dude. I was joking.
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I wouldn't normally pick on a word-use error (or spelling or grammar), but in this case you've chosen a word that results in a false accusation being made against me.

I didn't make an assumption; I made a presumption. There is an important difference.


Very well Steve.
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I didn't make an assumption; I made a presumption. There is an important difference.

My my, how important is it?

I think you should join Hair Splitters Anonymous. ;-)

Elan
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My my, how important is it?

I'd say the difference between making a supposition based on some facts is quite different from making a supposition based on no facts whatsoever. Obviously I think it's important.

I think you should join Hair Splitters Anonymous. ;-)

Mark Twain once said (quoting from memory) that "the difference between the right word and almost-the-right-word is like the difference between lightening and lightening bug."
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Camping in cold weather does not cause pneumonia.

Stress can impair immune system function

Both true. Being exposed to cold weather doesn't cause illness by itself. But there are two potential contributing factors. One is that certain pathogens, like the flu virus and some pneumonia causing bacteria thrive in cool moist conditions. So your chance of becoming infected in those conditions is increased. The other is that exposure to cold won't hurt you, as long as you are well enough protected. But if you're not protected from the cold to the point that you're "freezing", i.e. your core body temperature drops, then you are in a stress condition that, as you noted, impairs your immune response.

Elan
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I would have thought they were simply customary among East European Jews and they ahve simply retained their traditional garb.

One thing I find odd is that Shas members in Israel have adopted eastern European orthodox dress customs. Shas is the Sepharadic Religious Party in Israel. Their key rallying point is they want to eliminate the discrimination against Sepharadi's by the Ashkenazi religious establishment. They are so concerned about Sepharadic identity that they all (except for Rav Ovadia) look like Nachman me'Uman.

Elan
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certain pathogens, like the flu virus and some pneumonia causing bacteria thrive in cool moist conditions

Really? Are you sure about that? This is far outside my area of expertise, but it seems counterintuitive.

The moist part makes sense, but given that they infect and reproduce in hosts with body temperatures around 37°C, I'd think they'd do best in warm & moist conditions.
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certain pathogens, like the flu virus and some pneumonia causing bacteria thrive in cool moist conditions

Really? Are you sure about that? This is far outside my area of expertise, but it seems counterintuitive.

The moist part makes sense, but given that they infect and reproduce in hosts with body temperatures around 37°C, I'd think they'd do best in warm & moist conditions.


I'm no expert. But here's where I'm coming from.

The flu virus tends to spread and infect in the winter. There is no doubt about that.

One of the sources of Legionnaires' Disease, which is a form of bacterial pneumonia, is air conditioning ducts.

The body typically has a fever reaction to infection, because even a slightly elevated temperature above 37C makes it tough for the bugs. I believe they survive longer in the air and on the surfaces we touch when we get infected, when they are cool.

Elan
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<< certain pathogens, like the flu virus and some pneumonia causing bacteria thrive in cool moist conditions>>

Really? Are you sure about that? This is far outside my area of expertise, but it seems counterintuitive.

The moist part makes sense, but given that they infect and reproduce in hosts with body temperatures around 37°C, I'd think they'd do best in warm & moist conditions.


I also thought they thrive in warm moist conditions. Perhaps one way to explain why colds are more prevalent in winter (in places that experience cold weather winter) is because:

1. People tend to congregate indoors a bit more (maybe the "tipping point" of additional transferrence is reached).
2. Peoples noses are "wetter" (and perhaps warmer) because the cold weather causes the mucus membranes to excrete more liquids (is this really true? If not, why does my nose tend to run in cold places?)
3. Also, do people breathe "more" in cold climates?
a. Is the air less dense and therefore requires more breathing to get enough oxygen?
b. Or do people exert more effort (maybe because of bulky coats, etc) causing them to take more breathes on average in the cold weather?
c. Or maybe people tend to hurry in the cold to avoid being outdoors for an extended period, then arrive out of breath, just to enter into a cauldron of pathogens inside somewhere? :-)

In places that don't really experience cold weather in winter, colds wouldn't necessarily be more prevalent during the winter. BUT, with the level of travel being high today, places that are warm in the winter tend to attract people from places that are cold in the winter (and places that are cold tend to attract some from the warmer climes as well, skiers, for example), thus bringing more pathogens with them in the process. For example, here in South Florida, the population swells during winter with people coming from the northern climes.
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Another coOn July 7, 1989, I saw a Grateful Dead concert at JFK Stadium in Philadelphia. Six days later, the building was condemned.

Does that mean that my attendance at GD concerts causes the venues to be condemned?

Less than a week after that concert, I attended another GD show at RFK Stadium in DC. It was not condemned.

=============

I was at both those shows .... high as a kite ... I remember hearing how JFK stadium was condemned a few days later ...

did you ever see a picture of Mickey Hart at his Bar Mitzvah? It's in the Grateful Dead Family Album ... Mickey looks like he is from the planet Vulcan, even at 13.

d v

after JG died, my wife and I went to Philadelphia that night and hung out in Liberty square. there were about 5,000 or so hippies milling around and trying to figure out what to do, as if we could do something to bring Jerry back.

during that time as we were wandering around the park, we noticed a young Jewish guy, kind of chubby, some prayers in Hebrew (yitgadol, vyitgodot shemay rahbaw), wearing a yarmulke, and also singing Grateful Dead songs.

Struck up a conversation with the guy who was probably 20 years younger than yours truly. It wasn't you Steven, was it?
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Mark Twain once said (quoting from memory) that "the difference between the right word and almost-the-right-word is like the difference between lightening and lightening bug."
====================

Shmuli Clemens ...
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A couple of decades ago, I was doing work on migratory songbirds. In between the trees in the flight paths of the birds, and near feeders, we placed a special type of net called a mistnet because it was very hard to see by the songbirds. They would fly right into the net. We could then band, photograph and release the birds.
Maybe they really are interested in the well being of the unwary birds.

www.hotfoot.com/mist-pd.html - 22k -
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Oh, and yes, we could see the nets.
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Maybe they really are interested in the well being of the unwary birds.

That may be true. I was just pointing out that the two complaints were mutually contradictory.

Either the birds are endangered by this 'invisible' fishing line, in which case no one's view is obstructed, or the fishing line is so visible that it obstructs people's view.

They can't have it both ways.
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was at both those shows

Did you see me there? I was the bearded guy wearing a tie-dye.

did you ever see a picture of Mickey Hart at his Bar Mitzvah? It's in the Grateful Dead Family Album...

I know the photo you mean -- someone gave me Family Album as a gift. He's wearing a yarmulke and tallis, but my recollection is that it was a posed 'photographer's studio' shot, not at the actual bar mitzvah itself. (My mom got similar studio photos of me around the time of my bar mitzvah.)

we noticed a young Jewish guy...

That wasn't me. Even though I wasn't yet frum, I would never have said kaddish for JG because:
#1: He wasn't one of the 7 relations for whom we say kaddish (mother, father, spouse, brother, sister, son, daughter), and
#2: Kaddish requires a minyan.

I had been living in DC from 1987 to 1991, when I moved to Detroit (and became frum at the same time). I attended a few more shows in Detroit and Cleveland. I remember a guy at a Cleveland show saw my Tzitzes hanging out and said, "Hey, it's the string guy from Detroit!" I guess they must have made an impression on him.

You may find this article interesting:
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/1698/edition_id/26/format/html/displaystory.html
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The flu virus tends to spread and infect in the winter. There is no doubt about that.
Yes, because people spend more time cooped up together indoors, with their windows and doors closed.

So in the winter people spend more time in close proximity to others who are infected, in environments with less air circulation. (Modern building techniques call for super-insulated tightly sealed buildings. This cuts energy expenditures, but also reduces air circulation.)

One of the sources of Legionnaires' Disease, which is a form of bacterial pneumonia, is air conditioning ducts.

Or maybe not. While that was certainly an oft-cited explanation, there is some debate about whether or not it was spread through the ducts. See here, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionnaire's_disease#Philadelphia.2C_1976

And for this bacteria, I'm confident you're wrong about temperature:
Legionellosis is an infection caused by the genus of Gram negative bacteria Legionella... a ubiquitous aquatic organism that thrives in warm environments (25 to 45° C with an optimum around 35° C)...
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionnaire's_disease

Note that the optimum temperature is 35°C, quite close to the average body temperature of 37°C.

I tried searching for information on other bacteria & viruses, but couldn't find any information about the temperatures at which they thrive.

Also, see this message:
http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=24746835
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1. People tend to congregate indoors a bit more (maybe the "tipping point" of additional transferrence is reached).

This is the real reason. People spend more time indoors, with all the doors and windows closed. So air circulation is less (meaning the viruses and bacteria hand around longer), and time spent in proximity to others already infected is greater.
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1. People tend to congregate indoors a bit more (maybe the "tipping point" of additional transferrence is reached).

This is the real reason. People spend more time indoors, with all the doors and windows closed. So air circulation is less (meaning the viruses and bacteria hand around longer), and time spent in proximity to others already infected is greater.


BS IMO.

Elan
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we noticed a young Jewish guy...

That wasn't me. Even though I wasn't yet frum, I would never have said kaddish for JG because:
#1: He wasn't one of the 7 relations for whom we say kaddish (mother, father, spouse, brother, sister, son, daughter), and
#2: Kaddish requires a minyan.

===================

There are some congregations where people will stand and say Kaddish for total strangers

and

as far as the minyan requirement, there were at least 2000 folks in that square that night ...

and I have seen people at Dead shows wearing yarmulke and tallis, and more than one time seeing young guys moving to the music in a way that looked distinctly like davening, lol. cute.


good article, I remember reading a few articles written by Rabbis and other Jewish people about the Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia after Jerry died.


Did you ever see/hear Grisman perform? Great great music. I saw his quintet one night about 7 years ago and Andy Statman sat in for over half the show and these guys jammed like you would expect to hear in a celestial orchestra, with bluegrass, jazz, klezmer, chasid, and other thematic sounding stuff in an amazing improvisational brew. wish I had a copy of that show ... it was in Newburyport in 1999.


dv
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From New Scientist:
The viruses that cause colds spread faster in the winter because people spend more time inside, where they are closer together.

People close the windows in the winter so air contaminated by virus particles is not diluted by "fresh" air from the outdoors. This makes it easier for the viruses to spread.

Source: http://www.newscientist.com/backpage.ns?id=lw399

Also from New Scientist:
We do tend to be indoors more often in poorly ventilated areas during the winter and this aids the airborne transmission of viruses. Similarly, ultraviolet will kill viruses and this may be another factor ...
http://www.newscientist.com/backpage.ns?id=mg14920207.500

And i finally found some data about the temperatures that viruses like. it's not cold and clammy -- it's the temperature inside your nose!
Rhinoviruses (from the Greek rhin, meaning “nose”) cause an estimated 30 to 35 percent of all adult colds, and are most active in early fall, spring, and summer. More than 110 distinct rhinovirus types have been identified. These agents grow best at temperatures of about 91 degrees Fahrenheit, the temperature inside the human nose. (emphasis added)
Source: http://www3.niaid.nih.gov/healthscience/healthtopics/colds/cause.htm
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Most bacteria that infect warm blooded animals are optimal at 37 degrees C. This is why bacterial cultures are grown in incubators at 37C. This is also believed to be the reason that one develops a fever when infected. The increase in temperature slows the maximal growth of the bacteria.

As to viruses. It isn't the temperature, Its the humidity. In moderate temperatures, during cold weather, people are huddled together indoors. The lowered humidity of indoor heating systems dry out the mucus membranes that contain antibodies white blood cells and other factors that inhibit viral penetration. the viscous fluid layer is also a mechanical barrier to viral penetration. But as humans are in such close proximity, the bodily fluids that contain the infective virus don't dry out soon enough to have any effect on the infectivity of the virus and the dried membranes are a compromised barrier. Hence increased infectivity and rapid spread.
In extremely cold invironments, the relative humidity is so very low as is the population density that the potentially infective virus dries out very quickly. Cold dry air plays two roles in inactivating the virus. Both by drying the virus as well as altering the virus' three dimensional structure necessary for infectivity.

Cold and drying only inactivate the virus temporarily. Were the virus to be rehydrated, it would be again infective. This is how vaccines are maintained until it is time for use. They are dehydrated, chilled and placed in a vacuum. Still they are immediately infective when reconstituted with water or saline solutions.
In extreme Northern climes, eventually, oxidation and radiation inactivate the vast majority of viral particles before they ever have the correct set of factors that permit infectivity.
It is my understanding that one of the small advantages of being stationed at McMurdo Station(South Pole) is that since no one with a cold is allowed anywhere near the station, you can at least be assured that you will never catch cold during your entire stay.
Many viruses- rabies,HIV for example can be easily deactivated by modest changes in temperature, humidity or exposure to ultraviolet light. This explains why certain viruses can only be spread under optimal conditions.
Still, there are many reported cases of individuals developing rabies not from a bite or scratch but from spending extended amounts of time in bat inhabited caves. Its dark, the humidity is high. bats excrete the virus in their urine. The virus stays suspended in the urine and is protected in the moist dark environment. The cave explorer inhales the virus and is infected.
I used to work in infectious disease control.
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I tried searching for information on other bacteria & viruses, but couldn't find any information about the temperatures at which they thrive.


Try googling this phrase: "infectivity mesophilic vs thermophilic bacteria" or viruses". I haven't looked but I'm pretty sure you'll find what you are looking for.
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From New Scientist:

Okay fine. I've been educated.

Rhinoviruses

We started with influenza and now we're talking about the common cold. Not the same thing.

Elan
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We started with influenza and now we're talking about the common cold. Not the same thing.


No they aren't the same thing but the methods of infectivity aren't all that different.

Respiratory viruses; influenza and rhinoviruses included, essentially employ similar mechanisms for infectivity and spread.
Both are bound by the constraints of biology and environmental issues.

I'd give more information to Elan on these issues including antiviral drugs that can protect, but Elan doesn't find my posts of any value.

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