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""You have no right to support the death penalty until you yourself condemn a person to this sentence and tell it to their face. You have no right to support it until you can tell me honestly that you would be willing to strap a person in that electric chair and tie him up and pull that switch and not look away while he fries and have no bad feelings whatsoever about it! And if you're unwilling to do that, then you're a hypocrite. But if you are you willing, then YOU are the beast that requires punishment.""" ACE
*************

*Typical idealistic Liberalism. The writer KNOWS what is good for the rest of us. Also, some of us are accused of being "beasts"
**************

1. I cant condemn a person to his face, I am not a judge nor a jury. See your Constitution teacher Ace.

2.I am not willing to strap a person to ol'sparky.(Elect chair) My tax money pays people to do that job for me.

3. If I was unfortunate to know the victim, I would pay for a front row seat to watch the moron fry. (Odds are Gore would loose one more vote)

4.My feelings for the convicted one, would have as much sympathy as he gave his victim when he committed murder.
******************

Ace, it is interesting, that your post was 100% preoccupied with the convicted one. You made NO mention for the victim. Im sure this was just an oversight, I percieve you to be a kind hearted person.

I am not asking that we forget the rights of the guilty, I am simply asking that VICTIMS get parity with the criminals, as far as the Liberal element of the justice system is concerned.

USE THE FORCE!!! JEDIKNIGHT
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""You have no right to support the death penalty until you yourself condemn a person to this sentence and tell it to their face. You have no right to support it until you can tell me honestly that you would be willing to strap a person in that electric chair and tie him up and pull that switch and not look away while he fries and have no bad feelings whatsoever about it! And if you're unwilling to do that, then you're a hypocrite. But if you are you willing, then YOU are the beast that requires punishment.""" ACE
*************

*Typical idealistic Liberalism. The writer KNOWS what is good for the rest of us.
------------------------------

Jedi,

Do you reduce everything to Liberal vs Conservative? For someone who thinks that Liberals are always trying to tell us what's good for us, you are certainly full of opinions on what is good for us too.

I don't think Acejustice2 suffers from being a 'Liberal', he's just a kid expressing himself (no offense ace).

For the record, I'm a Liberal and I support the death penalty. Plenty of conservatives don't. But since conservatives walk on water, you don't say anything about them.

INCOMPLETE YOUR TRAINING IS!!!!

Yoda (dov) Baer
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"Jedi,

Do you reduce everything to Liberal vs Conservative? For someone who thinks that Liberals are always trying to tell us what's good for us, you are certainly full of opinions on what is good for us too.

I don't think Acejustice2 suffers from being a 'Liberal', he's just a kid expressing himself (no offense ace).

For the record, I'm a Liberal and I support the death penalty. Plenty of conservatives don't. But since conservatives walk on water, you don't say anything about them.

INCOMPLETE YOUR TRAINING IS!!!!

Yoda (dov) Baer"
***********************

DOV,

Welcome to Cambridge. This is the house that Ace built.

1. I dont not reduce everything to Lib and Conservative, however, on a political message board, that is a proper way of looking at things most of the time. Dont be shocked...philosophies differ.

2. Ace will speak for himself, but so far he has strong convictions, which mirror Liberalism. DOV, do you consider being called "liberal" an insult? Seems that way. You also called being a Liberal "sufferring". Interesting take.

3.Conservatives dont walk on water. One man, about 2001 years ago, did walk on water, and he was not running for any elective office.

4. I have never told anybody what to do. I simply voice my opinions on various issues of the day. I never called anyone a "beast". I never told anyone they should strap a felon to an electric chair.
******************

Now, to the serious business. Yes, my training is incomplete. A Jedi always growns with the Force.

USE THE FORCE!!! JEDIKNIGHT
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3.Conservatives dont walk on water. One man, about 2001 years ago, did walk on water, and he was not running for any elective office.

Mr.Knight



Look what happened to him
Joelsenior
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Hi Jedi,

Glad to see you have a sense of humor. Actually I've read many of your posts on PA and almost all seem to me to be (paraphrasing) Liberal = very bad. The world is more complex than this and plenty of Liberals have conservative views on specific issues and vice versa.

I don't think that being called a Liberal is an insult, but a number of posters sure write their posts that way. I'm thinking of one in particular (although not the only one by any stretch) that posted a lurid story about Stalin torturing a small bird and then went on to equate that tale with how modern Liberalism has destroyed peoples thinking.

Of course the young Jedi who posted it denied he was equating Stalin with Liberals but the post belied that denial (IMO). Maybe I should tell a story about Hitler and try to draw analogies on how Conservatives have a similar philosophy (anti communist, pro law and order, nationalistic, pro military, etc).

As for never calling anyone a name, you often expressed your view on Liberals. Maybe you didn't specifically call anyone a name, but you've certainly tarred Liberals over and over. Of course no one is beyond criticism, including liberals and Conservatives.

As for the serious business, I offer this mentoring in the ways of the Force. Don't give in to anger, there lies the dark path. Don't collapse domains (everything Liberal is bad). This is what defeats you,

Strong you are in the ways of the force (but so was Darth Vader).

Dov
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I believe that the victims can get their justice by transforming this criminal into a productive member of society. I have important factors pertaining to this.

1. Most criminals can't even read or write. Most don't have a diploma. I think that we should do more to improve the existing school system and more to decrease the dropout rate.

2. Many of these criminals are mentally ill and are in need of physchiatric help, but NOT of the ultimate form: death.

3. Many of these of terrorists are trying to send a message. Perhaps we should do more to listen to these messages instead of making fun of them.

4. You've seen what happened in Columbine - these kids got picked on too much. We need to raise our children better. I have no solution for this other than to suggest that you spend time and talk with your children more often. Most young criminals are boys, and boys are discouraged from sharing their feelings. The bullies often have low self-esteem, and the kids getting picked on bring guns to school. I see a pattern here.

Again, I do not have all the answers. I just think more should be done.
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I do not consider myself as either a liberal or a conservative. In fact, I don't consider myself part of the political spectrum at all. I have conservative views with more liberal ways of acheiving the things I think I need to be done. I sometimes even find myself with revolutionary ideas for how things ought to be, then whip out the good ol' constitution to show why. I also often find myself poking fun at both the Democratic and Republican parties. Just regard me as a political outcast I guess. I only want what's best for my fellow citizens.
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Hi Ace,

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, including trying to reform criminals and helping them become part of society.

but you know, sometimes despite the best efforts of dedicated people, the criminal fails to be rehabilitated. There are 'bad' people in the world who would just as soon see you dead as alive. They may be beyond anyones reach.

And if someone has committed violent crimes how can you be sure that letting them out of jail becasue some psychologist says they are not dangerous is a smart thing to do. There are about 101 different forms of psychiatry, professionals often disagree, and the stakes couldn't be higher. What if someone was let out and went on to kill or do violence again. It happens all the time in the states.

So how about this, let's have a moritorium on executions. That should make liberals happy. Let's also simultaneously have a national debate on what are the conditions, circumstances etc that arguably call for the death penalty. For example, if there is the slightest chance that there is a case of mistaken identity, no death penalty.

However, someone like McV, who killed so many, who had no remorse other than he didn't kill more, whose guilt is admitted and uncontested may represent the kind of case that could deserve the death penalty.

Bakc to an old question, is there ever a case for the death penalty. If so, it's just a matter of agreeing what crime would deserve it. If not, then are you saying that nothing, no matter how horrible, ever deserves that punishment.

You can have the last word,

Dov
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DOV...

Let us look at my WORDS, and not interpretations of my words.

1.I have NEVER engaged in name calling of Liberals. Yes, I did have a post that had a story about Stalin in it. I NEVER said Liberal people are Stalin clones. I DID say, and I DO say, that the basic philosophy of Liberalism, was illustrated by Stalin and his birds. (Or, Clinton and Monica). Stalin wanted the birds to be happy with whatever comfort he could give them. Liberals want thier followers to be the same way. No name calling. Just issues and philosophies.

2. Yes. Most of my posts try and contrast Liberals and Conservatives. othing wrong with that on a political board. Lib and Conservative has something to do with politics.

3. Just reading your WORDS, you said that "Ace does not suffer from being a Liberal".

Im no English major, but sufferring is not a good thing. Does one really "suffer" from being a Liberal like you say? I knew it was bad, but not that bad.

4. I have never said everything Liberal is bad. As a matter of fact, I am happy Fritz Hollings, DEMOCRAT in the Senate might block this global trade crap. I was so proud of Marcy Kaptur, D- Ohio, when she worked against NAFTA and GATT. (Personally, I think protecting our industry is a classical conservative theme, that repubs have lost their way on)

5. I have criticized so-called conservatives. I think Trent Lott was too MODERATE on issues like trade, impeachement, and the English language. I think many Republicans are too moderate on some issues, and I will not support one of them.

I am very thrilled and honored you still remember my post with the Stalin story.
**********

As far as Darth Vader being strong with the Force, I agree. When young Vader was a kid, without a Father, his Mom did a nice job raising him. He was very GIFTED, but did not have the oppurtunity to develop it. Kind of like a smart kid in a poor school, who would benefit from having a CHOICE of schools. If Liberals are militant that we have CHOICE to kill a fetus, why not CHOICE of schools for those lucky little guys that make it into the world?

Young Vader never learned to control his fear.

I am not scared. I firmly believe, that when the 33% wedlock rate goes to 50%, and when the USA hits the cliff socially, the American Spirit will rise up and beat back the forces of Liberalism.

USE THE FORCE!!! JEDIKNIGHT
www.votenader.org
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Jedi,

Do you reduce everything to Liberal vs Conservative? For someone who thinks that Liberals are always trying to tell us what's
good for us, you are certainly full of opinions on what is good for us too.

----------------
What! A voice of reason? Welcome!
Becky
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I believe that the victims can get their justice by transforming this criminal into a productive member of society. I have
important factors pertaining to this.

---------------------------
Ace,
Looks like you've done some serious thinking about this issue.

My sister is a therapist, and told me 90+% of "violent criminals" were badly abused as children. That has to mean something. And I agree on the rehabilitation but our system is too busy building prisons to spend any money on such silly things. Also, by the time they get to where they are, unless a miracle happens, they are almost beyond hope.
The most successful programs in prisons are religious. Specifically,
Christian, because they speak of forgiveness and redemption and love,
things they never received in this life or rejected.

Another point against the death penality, is our justice system. My nephew (18) went to jail for 6 months recently. The lawyer he was given
was responsible for the jail time and the 5 year probation after. Free
lawyers often don't know enough and have caseloads so huge they can't even remember who you are. I read of one guy who got an appeal because his lawyer was drunk and FELL ASLEEP in court. Hello? What was the judge doing?<sigh>

If I was sure these people did what they were accused of, I wouldn't have such a problem with it. Also, with DNA evidence proving so many of these guys innocent, after YEARS on death-row---I'm not to sure of anyones guilt anymore. "The Progressive" magazine carries pictures of the innocent ones when they get out--two more just recently. And prosecutors are often proven to be less than just in their work because they want a promotion. If "decent" people act like that, how can we know who's guilty?
Becky
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Thanks Becky.

I've got another one coming, so JEDIKNIGHT, better get that Light Saber charged up. You're gonna need it soon ... for combat in the battleground of ideas.

Dov Baer Kenobi
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OK Jedi, here we go...

you said:
I have NEVER engaged in name calling of Liberals. Yes, I did have a post that had a story about Stalin in it. I NEVER said Liberal people are Stalin clones. I DID say, and I DO say, that the basic philosophy of Liberalism, was illustrated by Stalin and his birds.

I say
We can get into hair splitting over whether you used this story about Stalin to illustrate the basic philosophy of Liberalism is name calling or not. To me it is, I guess to you it isn't. Again, what if I wanted to say that the basic philosphy of Conservatism was illustrated by Hitler because he was anti-communist? Would using Hitler to make a point about American conservatives be name calling?

you said
Most of my posts try and contrast Liberals and Conservatives. othing wrong with that on a political board. Lib and Conservative has something to do with politics.

I say
I agree.

you said
I have criticized so-called conservatives. I think Trent Lott was too MODERATE on issues like trade, impeachement, and the English language. I think many Republicans are too moderate on some issues, and I will not support one of them.

I say
If Trent is too moderate, than you and I have a large gulf between us. But, hey, we both love this country because we are free to express our contrasting views.

I've enjoyed this exchange, although I have to admit I was pretty steamed about the Stalin post. Even though you say you weren't equating Stalinism and Liberalism, that's how I read it.

By the way, where did you get that Stalin story? I have relatives who lived under Stalin and Hitler and I am a history buff. Was this from a book, do you have a link or something?

Finally, you've mentioned a few times that you've created a business with 40 or so employees. Congratulations on creating so many taxpayers! I hope your business is successful.

Regards,

Dov Baer Kenobi


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Ok DOV...

Im rubbing my lightsaber right now.

Wait a minute...that came out the wrong way. :)

USE THE FORCE!!! JEDIKNIGHT
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Here's a fabulous editorial that I gleaned from the PA Board...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=18702

I am frequently confronted with what apparently strikes some people as a very difficult question: How I can reconcile my pro-life position with my strong support of the death penalty? But answering this question is actually quite easy. There is no contradiction -- nor even any tension -- between support for the death penalty and opposition to abortion. Not, that is, unless we see no moral difference between the innocent and the guilty.

Take care,
Spriteman
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http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=15182101

Response to DOV, #343

USE THE FORCE!!! JEDIKNIGHT
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My sister is a therapist, and told me 90+% of "violent criminals" were badly abused as children. That has to mean something. And I agree on the rehabilitation but our system is too busy building prisons to spend any money on such silly things. Also, by the time they get to where they are, unless a miracle happens, they are almost beyond hope. (beckyz51)

=============

That's right Becky. Unfortunately, some are beyond hope. For once we agree. That's exactly why we need to build the prisons in the first place. It's not always about rehabilitation. Sometimes, It's about protecting society.

==============
Also, with DNA evidence proving so many of these guys innocent, after YEARS on death-row---I'm not to sure of anyones guilt anymore. (beckyz51)

==============

Honestly, if you were ever a juror, could you ever find anybody guilty of a crime? It doesn't sound like it. I don't think you are being objective. No offense but I sure hope you are never seated on a jury.

You speak of all these poor innocent people being framed and later proven innocent by the use of DNA evidence. It happens. That's unfortunate at the time of conviction but fortunate that the truth comes out.

What's equally alarming are all the guilty souls that go free because of jurists (maybe like you) who refuse to believe the facts. Ever hear of the O.J. verdict? That happens far more often than the example you cite.

=======================

Free lawyers often don't know enough and have caseloads so huge they can't even remember who you are. (beckyz51)

========================

I agree with you again. If you get yourself in trouble, why don't you pay for your own Damn lawyer? Why should the taxpayer pay for your nephew's lawyer. After all, in your nephew's case he either pled guilty or was convicted and given 6 mos. jail time plus probation. That speaks volumes Nobody should pay for that guy's lawyer but himself. If he can't afford one, let him take out a mortgage on his house. The taxpayer should not have to fork over for a defense lawyer upon conviction of the accused. (and then have to listen to the family bellyache about the quality of the legal representitive they received) Sheesh!

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm picking on you. I really don't mean too. I'm just as passionate in my belief system as you are.

bs5
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<some are beyond hope
Sometimes, It's about protecting society.>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Statistics alone say at least 1% are innocent. How many is that?
None of them is you, so who cares? Right? The old 1% solution again.
What were you going to do about abortions for rape and incest? That is
an answer I'm just not getting. All I hear is, "that's only 1%". OK.
So, what are you going to do about them? And the 1% of innocents in prison? What about them? You sound disappointed the DNA showed their innocence. Are you? The R's in MI are trying to put some limits on DNA cases. Why?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

< No offense but I sure hope you are never seated on a jury.>

Unless, it was your jury!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

What's equally alarming are all the guilty souls that go free because of jurists <(maybe like you)> who refuse to believe the facts.

Good idea. let's pass a new law that only "Compassionate Conservatives"
can be on juries. We'll save lots of money because you will agree they look guilty to you and you trust the police, so let's forget about trial and send them right to jail.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
<I agree with you again. If you get yourself in trouble, why don't you pay for your own Damn lawyer? Why should the taxpayer
pay for your nephew's lawyer. After all, in your nephew's case he either pled guilty or was convicted and given 6 mos. jail
time plus probation. That speaks volumes Nobody should pay for that guy's lawyer but himself. If he can't afford one, let him
take out a mortgage on his house. The taxpayer should not have to fork over for a defense lawyer upon conviction of the
accused. (and then have to listen to the family bellyache about the quality of the legal representitive they received) Sheesh!

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm picking on you. I really don't mean too. I'm just as passionate in my belief system as you are.>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
My nephew was adopted along with 6 other abused kids. He was in special ed his whole life, can barely read (dyslexia). he was working at Mc Donald's and living with his grandma. All he owns is a car that breaks down at least twice a week. Call a lawyer and ask them if they will represent you and you can make payments!<rant>
My brother-in law and his wife gave those kids all the love they had.
You sir are not forgiven for the slights and innuendoes I've received since the day I came to this board. Now there is another who is still sane, but as you all continue to ignore his questions and judge him mercilessly for thinking there is a place for love in this world. He'll break too. And you can all (#?)3 of you live happily ever after.
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""You sir are not forgiven for the slights and innuendoes I've received since the day I came to this board. Now there is another who is still sane, but as you all continue to ignore his questions and judge him mercilessly for thinking there is a place for love in this world. He'll break too. And you can all (#?)3 of you live happily ever after." BECKY

Hmmm, Becky, WHO was it that accused another for "not having a heart"?


I need to change my investments. When I see this kind of behavior, it makes me think that behavioral drugs are the best investments in town.

I recieve just as many slights as anyone Becky, just see the Political Asylum board, or even the GTW board until the Liberals ran for cover(lol). That goes with the territory as far as im concerned.

Anyway, for those who disagree with me ever, take your best shot!! Fine folks may disagree and still be buddies.

USE THE FORCE!!! JEDIKNIGHT

PS: Ace...im still looking into the DUK energy thing.

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Excellent essay here, Jedi, written by a Euro, about the effite snobs in the Euro ruling class:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=95000614

/s/ S.T.

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< Hmmm, Becky, WHO was it that accused another for "not having a heart"?>
------------
Probably me. At least I admit it. I don't see mercy or love or any type of understanding from that person. If you can find a kind word please post it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
<I need to change my investments. When I see this kind of behavior, it makes me think that behavioral drugs are the best
investments in town.>
-------------
You know I'm bi-polar. But this is not a slam?????????????????????????
Cruel, no hearts here.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
<I recieve just as many slights as anyone Becky, just see the Political Asylum board, or even the GTW board until the Liberals
ran for cover(lol). That goes with the territory as far as im concerned.

Anyway, for those who disagree with me ever, take your best shot!! Fine folks may disagree and still be buddies
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Not with you, never with you.





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<<PS: Ace...im still looking into the DUK energy thing.>>

JEDI - DUK is my second largest holding, and it has done VERY well for me. I highly recommend that you stop by the DUK board and check it out (about half the posts there are mine!).

Take care and Go Long,
Spriteman
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Here is a link to a study about the effects of the death penalty:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,27357,00.html
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Spacibo.
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Ya dumau - ehto ne pravda.
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I don't need prozac!
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