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No. of Recommendations: 5
https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/inflation-reduction-ac...


"The added cash is expected to go toward hiring 87,000 new IRS agents, roughly doubling the agency’s size. The IRS says the money is expected to go toward efforts to crack down on wealthy tax evaders and to modernize its technology."

Doubling the size of the IRS this does. So how much do they have to find, that the IRS would otherwise not have found, to pay for this increase in agents? Will this help in building the public's confidence in governmental institutions? Will only the "wealthy " be targeted, or just anyone with assets to seize?

I am betting they will be called "The Lois Lerner" brigade".

YR
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No. of Recommendations: 4
I think what is really needed is a tax collection system that is not so easy to avoid. This will, of course, never happen. So we are stuck with a system that is too easy to cheat on and too expensive to police. While I applaud this I'm also not hopeful. We can't even reform the taxing of carried interest after all. Why should we believe wealthy tax avoiders will get caught?
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No. of Recommendations: 0
I'm wondering where on earth they are going to find that many qualified people. But I haven't looked up the qualifications to be an IRS agent, so maybe I'm overthinking it.
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No. of Recommendations: 3
Look in the want ads for: 'No Math-Skills required. Ability to Intimidate, Bully and a Knack for Thuggishness Guarantees Advancement.'

++++++++++++++++++

Perfect qualifications if you should believe you need a hit squad to take the wealth and redistribute it to those who will vote to keep you in power.

YR
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No. of Recommendations: 20
So how much do they have to find, that the IRS would otherwise not have found, to pay for this increase in agents?

It would be impossible for me to find at this point, but I do remember hearing a couple years back during the last big "Wealthy tax cheats! Audit the bastards!!!" torch'n'pitchfork crusade that for every dollar spent on IRS agents auditing the rich, three-plus dollars came back in recovered evasions. Which goes a long way towards explaining why the rich always want to cut the IRS' budget...
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No. of Recommendations: 8
The crew of high salaried tax attorneys that audits Estate Tax Returns and prosecutes wealthy tax cheats brings in about $10 for every dollar in salaries and benefits paid.

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/business/23tax.html

The [Bush} administration plans to cut the jobs of 157 of the agency’s 345 estate tax lawyers, plus 17 support personnel, in less than 70 days. Kevin Brown, an I.R.S. deputy commissioner, confirmed the cuts after The New York Times was given internal documents by people inside the I.R.S. who oppose them.

Sharyn Phillips, a veteran I.R.S. estate tax lawyer in Manhattan, called the cuts a “back-door way for the Bush administration to achieve what it cannot get from Congress, which is repeal of the estate tax.”

Estate tax lawyers are the most productive tax law enforcement personnel at the I.R.S., according to Mr. Brown. For each hour they work, they find an average of $2,200 of taxes that people owe the government.

</snip>


intercst
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No. of Recommendations: 1
The article is regarding a proposal and those losing their jobs are invited to funnel information in retaliation or just "news worthy".?

You can never know as a reader, but I would be interested in what the final outcome really was?? Was this part of a larger governmental scale down or ???

YR
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No. of Recommendations: 4
The crew of high salaried tax attorneys that audits Estate Tax Returns and prosecutes wealthy tax cheats brings in about $10 for every dollar in salaries and benefits paid.

That is in line with several articles I have seen over the years. IRS enforcement easily pays for itself, and probably motivates more people to not cheat in the first place, if there is a greater chance of them being frog-marched to prison and their stuff taken for taxes and fines.

IRS enforcers are not thugs. They are good accountants, something the US has in abundance.

Frank John Wilson (May 19, 1887 – June 22, 1970) was best known as the Chief of the United States Secret Service and a former agent of the Treasury Department's Bureau of Internal Revenue, later known as the Internal Revenue Service. Wilson most notably contributed in the prosecution of Chicago mobster Al Capone in 1931, and as a federal representative in the Lindbergh kidnapping case.

"[Wilson] fears nothing that walks. He will sit quietly looking at books eighteen hours a day, seven days a week, forever, if he wants to find something in those books."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_J._Wilson

Steve
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No. of Recommendations: 11
IRS enforcers are not thugs. They are good accountants, something the US has in abundance....

That may well be so, but here a personal experience that points to something else:

Back in the90's I was President of two business startups at the same time; both officed in relatively cheap space to save some money...but also just happened to be two doors down from an IRS district office. After a couple of years. I received notice of a full audit of both companies.

Luckily, I had a great CPA (still do!) and he said not to worry. When I asked why we would get such an audit, he cited two reasons:

1. These are start-up businesses, and the IRS often finds something in this arena.
2. You are two doors down; this is easy for them.

Fast forward through two weeks of hell for me....and a TON of hours from my CPA...for which I had to pay.

Net Result: A rare "No Change" from the IRS--they couldn't find anything wrong.

Great, I thought! Now they will at least reimburse me for my CPA's 5-figure cost, even if they don't pay me for my time, etc. Wrongo! I got precisely zero from the IRS, even though I had done nothing wrong!

Fair? Nope! But that's the way it works at the IRS. One is guilty until proven innocent...and I had to pay to prove it

The power to tax IS the power to destroy!

Sample of one? Maybe....but if one receives a "No Change" the IRS should have to reimburse the taxpayer.

Cheers!
Murph
BL Home Fool
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No. of Recommendations: 15
My view is that if Congress requires citizens to pay taxes in accordance with tax laws that Congress writes, then Congress should respect the fact that my time is valuable. I shouldn't have to wait for hours to get an agent on the phone and it shouldn't take months to get a written response. The sheer contempt Congress has for its own citizens is ridiculous. Congress writes the rules and then punishes me for following them? These agents should have been hired a decade and half ago.
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No. of Recommendations: 4
I for one, filed for my ERC 10 months ago. I was told by my CPA to expect around 18K for my small business in return.

Still no check and when they are called "they are working on it".

Funny how different it is, depending on who has to write the check.

The IRS is NOT ever your friend.

YR
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No. of Recommendations: 3
The IRS is a bunch of thugs....

Maybe 7 years ago, I got a 'you owe us thousands in extra taxes'. Seemed they had a computer problem.

I had about 8 items of itemized income

Like Fidelity Fund XYZ $326.92
Like Fidelity Fund ABC $216.83
etc

They sent me letter saying I hadn't paid taxes
on income as follows

Fidelity Fund XYZ $362.92
Fidelity Fund ABC $216.93


Exactly as filed......

I sent 3 or four letters explaining it and showing the tax return as filed.

Did not do anything.

Finally I had to wait hours on phone to speak to someone who was about to grab the money from my bank account.......and it took her half an hour to fix the IRS return.

No thanks.

turns out Fidelity had sent the IRS a form slightly different from the income form they sent me.....but their stupid computer couldn't match it.

I think their computers are mainframes from 1980 running COBOL programmed in 1965 on old mainframes.

Didn't have that problem again. But it was a nightmare at the time.


t.
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No. of Recommendations: 4
"The power to tax IS the power to destroy!

What do 87000 new tax auditors and 30000 existing auditors do to justify their existence after they have finished auditing 100000 billionaires and millionaires? Who do they come after next?
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No. of Recommendations: 11
Sample of one? Maybe....but if one receives a "No Change" the IRS should have to reimburse the taxpayer.

Sounds reasonable enough to me. In fact, if it were up to me, the IRS would have paid for audit and if there was no change you wouldn't have to wait to get reimbursed.

But Congress could have changed that rule anytime since the 1990s, right? Fact is, there is a political philosophy that says making taxes hard to pay will lead to lower taxes. And they are very upfront about this. It isn't a secret. I could provide names and quotes but we don't do that here on METAR. But in reality, making taxes hard to pay is just Congress abusing its citizens to make a narrow political point.
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No. of Recommendations: 1
One ideology has been killing the IRS or misallocating funds to audit the poor. The other ideology has been tackling the wealthy. It all depends on who controls the WH.
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No. of Recommendations: 4
When asked why he robbed banks, Willy Hutton replied "Because that's where they keep the money".

In a country rift with larcenous souls filing their tax returns, the biggest bang for the buck comes from spending auditor's time perusing the returns of the wealthy.

It's not that the wealthy are less honest than the poor, but the consequences of that dishonesty - if it can be reversed/fined - is much more useful to the nation's budget if the wealthy attract the majority of the audits.

To be honest, the best system of collecting income taxes that I've seen is that used by Sweden. They collect our equivalents of W2 and 1099 income forms and generate an annual tax bill. You can either pay it or object and be subjected to an audit to see how your taxes differ from those the government calculated.

Jeff
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No. of Recommendations: 7
To be honest, I am just worried the IRS will be nurtured to become what the FBI is as of today's news.

It is coming, maybe already here...

YR
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No. of Recommendations: 46
To be honest, I am just worried the IRS will be nurtured to become what the FBI is as of today's news.

You mean a group that follows facts, works in conjunction with another independent branch of government, and ensures that no person is held above the rule of law?

AW
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No. of Recommendations: 2
YR,

Why are you posting an article dated 8/4/22 that is already out of date today 8/9/22? It sounds like a hit piece from Republicans to stop the Senate from approving the Act.

One statement in the article says: "Inflation Reduction Act of 2022 would spend an extra $79.6 billion on the agency over the next 10 years. The added cash is expected to go toward hiring 87,000 new IRS agents, roughly doubling the agency’s size."

That statement should be revised to state that only $7.96 billion per year and only 8700 new IRS agents per year. Everyone also realize that people retire every year and wages increase every year. So this does not seem at all unreasonable to make up for years of underfunding the IRS.

Jaak
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No. of Recommendations: 8
What do 87000 new tax auditors and 30000 existing auditors do to justify their existence after they have finished auditing 100000 billionaires and millionaires? Who do they come after next?

boater123

====================================================

BS from another Conservative Board diehard. It is only 8700 IRS agents per year. They will do 10,000 billionaires and millionaires per year. This is a 10 year program.

Jaak
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No. of Recommendations: 3
To be honest, I am just worried the IRS will be nurtured to become what the FBI is as of today's news.

It is coming, maybe already here...

YR

==========================================

You post is purely political. Please delete it because politics is not allowed on this board.

Jaak
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No. of Recommendations: 28
I guess rooster’s political post is not political if he keeps it ambiguous. I was a prosecutor at the start of my career in the early 1980’s. FBI can’t get a search warrant without sufficient evidence to persuade a federal judge.

They are prohibited by law from divulging the contents of that search warrant.

The recipient of said search warrant can reveal the contents of said warrant if they wanted to demonstrate they were victims of a witch hunt.

If instead they complain about a witch hunt with no evidence to support their claim it is because there was ample probable cause for the search warrant.

I wii wait for the evidence to prove me right again.
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No. of Recommendations: 0

FBI can’t get a search warrant without sufficient evidence to persuade a federal judge.


I can't imagine the FBI ever getting a search warrant to go into someone's house and search through it, maybe in the extreme case of an international mobster.
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No. of Recommendations: 5
I can't imagine the FBI ever getting a search warrant to go into someone's house and search through it,

Really?

The FBI call themselves a security force. But from my perspective, they aren't much different from your city's police force, except they enforce federal laws rather than state or local laws.

As to search warrants, Federal police agencies in total (FBI, DEA, ATF, etc.) get dozens of search warrants every day. I'm sure the FBI gets their fair share of those.

So yes, the FBI gets search warrants to go into peoples' homes all the time.

--Peter
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No. of Recommendations: 0
Look in the want ads for: 'No Math-Skills required. Ability to Intimidate, Bully and a Knack for Thuggishness Guarantees Advancement.'

From a LA listing...

...A job listing for the position of IRS Criminal Investigation Special Agent stresses that applicants must “carry a firearm and be willing to use deadly force” in order to carry out their duties...

...Applicants for the Special Agent position must also “be willing and able to participate in arrests, execution of search warrants, and other dangerous assignments.”....


https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/08/10/irs-job-listin...
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No. of Recommendations: 10
It takes a special talent to summarily dismiss a court ordered search warrant that you have not even seen solely because your cult leader has decreed it.
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No. of Recommendations: 0
It takes a special talent to summarily dismiss a court ordered search warrant that you have not even seen solely because your cult leader has decreed it.

++++++++++++++++

Don't you just hate it when you arrive at work, all ready to work and it is the wrong day and wrong work place?

YR
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No. of Recommendations: 0
I will paraphrase Reagan, if you have not broken the law you have nothing to worry about with law enforcement.

But this is all about one person when the FBI is mentioned here. He is always breaking the law and should worry when he does not seem to. What a man. Our pretender.

Those backing him have it entirely wrong.

If he is innocent he has nothing to worry about. Remember Reagan? Or have you let yourself be bulled by the nonsense since? Listening to the crazies will get you crazy.
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No. of Recommendations: 2

I will paraphrase Reagan, if you have not broken the law you have nothing to worry about with law enforcement


As of January 2020, the Innocence Project has documented over 375 DNA exonerations in the United States. Twenty-one of these exonerees had previously been sentenced to death.

Studies estimate that between 4-6% of people incarcerated in US prisons are actually innocent.

https://innocenceproject.org/donate/
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No. of Recommendations: 1
...Studies estimate that between 4-6% of people incarcerated in US prisons are actually innocent....

Although 85% percent of incarcerated people claim to be innocent.
My-my, who to believe.
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No. of Recommendations: 3
...Studies estimate that between 4-6% of people incarcerated in US prisons are actually innocent....

Although 85% percent of incarcerated people claim to be innocent.
My-my, who to believe.


If you find someone who claims to have a way that a human-operated system can be reliably perfect... that is not the person to believe.
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No. of Recommendations: 1
if you have not broken the law you have nothing to worry about with law enforcement…

I wonder how George Floyd or Brianna Taylor feel about that..

Tsimi
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No. of Recommendations: 0
...A job listing for the position of IRS Criminal Investigation Special Agent stresses that applicants must “carry a firearm and be willing to use deadly force” in order to carry out their duties...

Remind anybody of the movie?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Accountant_(2016_film)
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No. of Recommendations: 1
BBC has coverage describing 11 sets of classified documents recovered pursuant to the court ordered search warrant. More to come, I expect.
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No. of Recommendations: 0

Studies estimate that between 4-6% of people incarcerated in US prisons are actually innocent.


Yes exactly. Let that be a lesson to all of us on not following the words of a simpleton.

I knew that when I paraphrased. He was never my hero.

Some admins will aim the agents in the IRS at poor people who have typos in their returns, that can be documented. Some admins will aim the resources as wealthy people who skip the bill or offshore their monies.

You tell me where the money is wasted?
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No. of Recommendations: 0
The claim the prior president, two back now, had done the same thing is totally bogus. Just another lie.
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No. of Recommendations: 3
Guess the new IRS agent "requirement" 'to use deadly force' didn't play well in Peoria (and any other freedom loving district)!

https://www.newsweek.com/irs-deletes-requirement-that-new-ag...


sunray
taxpayer
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No. of Recommendations: 0
"Guess the new IRS agent "requirement" 'to use deadly force' didn't play well in Peoria (and any other freedom loving district)!"

Generally, it doesn't require "deadly force" in enforcing collection against corporations and large businesses. In spite of what some posters here like to go on about with authority, the majority of recouped taxes come from those making under 400,000 a year and may well require that "deadly force".
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No. of Recommendations: 2
More on the subject. After the link are a couple snippets:

https://patriotpost.us/opinion/90500-irs-hiring-spree-is-the...


IRS Hiring Spree Is the Biggest Expansion of the Police State in American History...

...Most law-abiding citizens know they have something to fear from a state agency that doesn’t concern itself with your due process and has no regard for your privacy...

...The wealthier you are the more likely it is that you can hire lawyers and accountants to work within the system. There aren’t enough millionaires and billionaires in the world to keep a potential new 87,000 IRS employees busy.
....


Much more at the link
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No. of Recommendations: 2
More on the subject.

More like more partisan bs.

—Peter
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No. of Recommendations: 4
"In a country rift with larcenous souls filing their tax returns, ......the biggest bang for the buck comes from spending auditor's time perusing the returns of the wealthy."

Nice thought but ...not true. The middle class has once again been lied to and will be paying the price for this monstrous bill.

https://nypost.com/2022/08/15/inflation-reduction-act-will-c...

https://gop-waysandmeans.house.gov/cbo-new-irs-audits-will-g...

https://legalinsurrection.com/2022/08/cbo-confirms-at-least-...
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No. of Recommendations: 13
Nice thought but ...not true. The middle class has once again been lied to and will be paying the price for this monstrous bill.

I hope everyone is sitting down, because I would hate to think someone gets hurt falling over when they find out that the NY Post (or other biased groups) made an error.

Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen directed IRS officials not to use new funding secured for the agency in Democrats’ Inflation Reduction Act to increase audits on households making under $400,000 annually.

In a Wednesday letter to IRS Commissioner Charles Rettig, Yellen reaffirmed a commitment “that audit rates will not rise relative to recent years for households making under $400,000 annually,” which she described as a “guiding precept of the planning” for the agency.


https://thehill.com/policy/3597316-yellen-tells-irs-not-to-u...

AW
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No. of Recommendations: 0
"I hope everyone is sitting down, because I would hate to think someone gets hurt falling over when they find out that the NY Post (or other biased groups) made an error."

It seems that there are many reputable folks making the same error.

https://www.atr.org/cbo-analysis-at-least-20-billion-from-ne...

https://www.kusi.com/cbo-inflation-reduction-act-will-cost-m...

https://headtopics.com/ca/cbo-confirms-at-least-20-billion-f...

https://www.whitehousedossier.com/2022/08/12/cbo-finds-spend...

https://www.legitgov.org/democratic-led-house-passes-737-bil...

Well you get the idea.
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No. of Recommendations: 16
It seems that there are many reputable folks making the same error.

Never heard of any of these.

atr.org - run by Grover Norquist

Headtopics - According to MediaBias: A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency and/or is fake news.

legitgov.org - According to Media Bias: Sources in the Conspiracy-Pseudoscience category may publish unverifiable information that is not always supported by evidence. These sources may be untrustworthy for credible/verifiable information; therefore, fact-checking and further investigation is recommended per article basis when obtaining information from these sources.

Well, you get the idea.

AW
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No. of Recommendations: 0
Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen directed IRS officials not to use new funding secured for the agency in Democrats’ Inflation Reduction Act to increase audits on households making under $400,000 annually.

The other guys will pervert that and aim the resources at poor black districts as soon as they get their hands on it. Wasting the IRS resources is done purposely by one persuasion. That can be fully documented, Prefect Legal 2008 or there abouts and a recent piece from prior to 2020. Anything to shield the wealthy and screw people.
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No. of Recommendations: 0
Reputable?

I guess being sucked into lies over and over again you see them as reputable.
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No. of Recommendations: 1
"Never heard of any of these."

?"Now, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office has come out with a report that found the Inflation Reduction Act will cost middle class Americans and small business $20 Billion in new taxes."

That really doesn't matter. Your gripe if you will is with the non partisan CBO wrote the report. If you have detected an error on the CBO's part in the report that they have released, you have a responsibility to inform them of your findings in order that they can correct their error that you have found. Please let us know their response.
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No. of Recommendations: 15
That really doesn't matter. Your gripe if you will is with the non partisan CBO wrote the report.

I have no “gripe” with the non-partisan CBO report. I believe they calculated it in good faith.

However, Yellen’s response was to tell the IRS not to increase audits on households earning under $400,000 AFTER the CBO report was issued. Yellen did this to ensure that the original intention of the Inflation Reduction Act remained intact.

The news sources you linked failed to report the whole set of facts.

AW
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No. of Recommendations: 2
Yellen did this to ensure that the original intention of the Inflation Reduction Act remained intact.

________________

Yellen lip synced that so that it would appear to jive with such claims.

Tomorrow is another day. It is how one plays the game.

YR
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No. of Recommendations: 32
Yellen lip synced that so that it would appear to jive with such claims.

That’s your opinion.

I prefer to deal with facts.

Here are the exact words of the Secretary of the Treasury:

“Specifically, I direct that any additional resources — including any new personnel or auditors that are hired — shall not be used to increase the share of small business or households below the $400,000 threshold that are audited relative to historical levels.”

Crystal clear.

AW
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No. of Recommendations: 2
Yellen is also a compadre of the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund.
All are synced to maintain (ahem) order.
Bloody well believe they go to the same cocktail parties to schmooze and scheme what to do.
Christine Lagarde is a member of 'The Fabian Society'.
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No. of Recommendations: 1

Crystal clear


Well, you have to run it through the spring-loaded, tinfoil decoder to understand what it really means
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No. of Recommendations: 22
"Now, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office has come out with a report that found the Inflation Reduction Act will cost middle class Americans and small business $20 Billion in new taxes."

It isn't the CBO report. It's how biased media distorts and spins the CBO report.

Of the several links posted above, the Canadian site is the closest to the truth.

CBO Confirms at Least $20 Billion From New Audits Will Come From Those Making Less than $400K

See the difference? The $20B is from people below $400K that were caught cheating on their taxes by the audit, not "new taxes".

The first link posted, from the "Americans For Tax Reform" site, has a link, not to the CBO report, but to an openly politically biased site. The article on the biased, political site, has a link to another article on that same biased, political, site. Following the links, finally, the fourth article, is the actual CBO report. The actual CBO report says:

The proposed increase in spending on the IRS’s enforcement activities would result in higher audit rates than those underlying CBO’s baseline budget projections. Between 2010 and 2018, the audit rate for higher-income taxpayers fell, while the audit rate for lower-income taxpayers remained fairly stable. In CBO’s baseline projections, the overall audit rate declines, resulting in lower audit rates for both higher-income and lower-income taxpayers. The proposal, by contrast, would return audit rates to the levels of about 10 years ago; the rate would rise for all taxpayers, but higher-income taxpayers would face the largest increase. In addition, the Administration’s policies would focus additional IRS resources on enforcement activity aimed at high-wealth taxpayers, large corporations, and partnerships. CBO estimates that if the proposals were enacted, tax compliance would be improved, and more households would meet their obligation under the law.

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57444

In recent years, the audit scrutiny has been focused on lower income people, as the "JCs" have enjoyed a much greater immunity from audits. The increase in funding for audits will result in greater enforcement at all levels of income, but the "JCs", who have been increasingly ignored by the IRS, will see the greatest increase in scrutiny, with audit rates increasing to where they were ten years ago. While $20B will come from middle income tax cheats, another $180B will come from "JC" tax cheats. Read the actual report.

So, who here wants to stand up and defend tax cheats? They are the only ones who will pay more tax.

Steve
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No. of Recommendations: 5
If you actually read the CBO analysis, it shows an estimated $124 billion in additional taxes, of which only $20B would come from tax cheats making less than $400K per year.

That looks to me like the first attempt by Congress in years to make billionaire tax cheats pay taxes.

Yellen’s directive would further force them to focus entirely on the richest tax cheats.

That would be a step in the right direction in my opinion.
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No. of Recommendations: 1
"Here are the exact words of the Secretary of the Treasury:

“Specifically, I direct that any additional resources — including any new personnel or auditors that are hired — shall not be used to increase the share of small business or households below the $400,000 threshold that are audited relative to historical levels.”

Crystal clear."

Yellin may not even be Treasury Secretary by the time the first new auditors are hired on. Her policy as such is not a binding policy on her successors.
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No. of Recommendations: 2
Your gripe if you will is with the non partisan CBO wrote the report.

Sheesshhh!


As sure as hell the middle class will pay at least $20 billion more in taxes. Actually a hell of a lot more than that.

You have any clue what that means?

It means the middle class is going to be making more money. Making more money means paying more in taxes.

One of the reasons the budget will move towards balancing.

You keep assuming we are going on to the wrong track. Far from it. It is called building the nation. I wont be backing off doing things that are extremely good for our nation just because you swallow endless lies.
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No. of Recommendations: 0
CBO Confirms at Least $20 Billion From New Audits Will Come From Those Making Less than $400K

Thanks Steve,

I continue to maintain the middle class is going to pay a hell of a lot more in taxes.....without taxes rising....over the next decade.

It is called faster real GDP growth and a much larger wealthier middle class.

Yes we have a recession at hand for now.
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No. of Recommendations: 2
Yellin may not even be Treasury Secretary by the time the first new auditors are hired on. Her policy as such is not a binding policy on her successors.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That is exactly true. Twice before during this century the IRS has been directed to waste their resources auditing poor black people so that wealthy people are not audited. Lawyers have been put on the phone system to deal with auditing poor people during those two periods instead.
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No. of Recommendations: 0
"It means the middle class is going to be making more money. Making more money means paying more in taxes."

Not really, the purpose of an audit is to try and recoup taxes on money previously earned. CBO has said that the middle class will provide...at least...20 Billion dollars as a result of these new audits.

"I wont be backing off doing things that are extremely good for our nation just because you swallow endless lies."

Yipee for you, except the non partisan CBO projections are facts not lies.
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No. of Recommendations: 1
Twice before during this century the IRS has been directed to waste their resources auditing poor black people so that wealthy people are not audited.

++++++++++++++++

Please cite the directives that directly indicate audits were race based.

YR
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No. of Recommendations: 2
https://projects.propublica.org/graphics/eitc-audit

Please cite the directives that directly indicate audits were race based.

YR

See link above....it was done by zip code. It specifically targeted the poorest of African Americans.

Read Perfectly Legal

And frankly in my search it is still going on in 2022.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/irs-audit-eitc-five-times-as-li...

The make up of the lower class, since poor people often do not file and filing is necessary often, not always, to be audited.

Google result

What percentage of the lower class is black?
Profile of Low-Income Families (Figure 1)

Four million low-income families (or 30 percent of the total) are Hispanic, 2.9 million (22 percent) are black or African American, and about 800,000 (6 percent) are other nonwhites.
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From your own link....

There's an explanation for why returns claiming the EITC are more likely to trigger an audit than other tax returns. One analysis found that as many as half of returns claiming the tax credit had erroneously claimed too much, or even incorrectly claimed the credit at all, according to the conservative Heritage Foundation.

It is the frequent miscalculation of the EITC from low income folks that attracts attention. NOT THE RACE!

Besides, Hispanics make up the primary population to get audited not BLACKS as you initially allege.

YR
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The Heritage Foundation is not a reliable source. They are just a marketing company.
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The Heritage Foundation is not a reliable source. They are just a marketing company.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

It was from your CBS link that you provided.

For some reason you are intent on misrepresenting the facts to fuel a racial issue that does not exist.
Quit stirring the pot and stir up some tax dollars via a work product.

The reasons stated for the easy hit on the lower income folks is because of the frequent incorrect calculations done and easily found. That makes it a target rich zone based on how easy it is to find and correct with very little agents time involved. Whereas a complicated return (usually professionally done) takes far more time, energy and resources to vet and yields far fewer correct hits than the low income folks who mostly would not use a professional to do their taxes.

YR
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https://youtu.be/7tVWH0LUr-I

This is an IRS agent before Congress on Aug 10, 2022.

The IRS is insisting there is cheating when there is not if someone earns less than $20k per year.

Rettig took office Oct 1, 2018. His management is insisting.

You are just taking the lies and running with them.

African Americans are targeted literally by zip code to waste IRS resources that could be used on prosecuting wealthy people cheating on their taxes.

It is not stirring any pot to claim racism in America. Nonsense trying to deny that.
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The increased IRS funding will bring in more revenue, and will reduce the Federal deficit. There is plenty of tax fraud to uncover, but convictions do not get widely reported.

--- links ---
Treasury Department rejects GOP claims on new IRS agents, August 18, 2022
"nearly $80 billion it's set to receive in funding from the Inflation Reduction Act.. The majority of hires will fill the positions of about 50,000 IRS employees on the verge of retirement, which will net about 20 to 30-thousand workers, not 87,000... A sizable portion of the money will go toward improving taxpayer services and modernizing antiquated, paper-based IRS operations... Congress has cut funding for the IRS for most of the past decade, leaving the agency with technology systems dating back to the 1970s"
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/treasury-department-rejects-...

"CBO estimates that a $20 billion increase to the IRS’s appropriations for enforcement activities over 10 years would raise revenues by $61 billion over that period. On net, the increase in spending on enforcement would reduce the deficit by $41 billion over the 2021–2030 period"
https://www.cbo.gov/publication/56467#_idTextAnchor090

IRS-CI counts down the top 10 cases of 2021, January 7, 2022
"sentenced to 47 and 15 years in federal prison... sentenced to 84 months... total estimated loss to the IRS of $25 million"
https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-ci-counts-down-the-top-10-c...

The top 10 tax fraud cases were not widely reported.
The year in review: Top news stories of 2021 month-by-month
Inauguration, insurrection, Paris Climate Agreement rejoined, container ship blocks Suez Canal, Floyd's killer found guilty, SpaceX launch, Surfside collapse, Summer Olympics, Afghanistan falls, Texas abortion ban, Malaria vaccine, World Series, tornadoes, Covid anti-viral pill.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-year-in-review-top-news-sto...
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I think the reality is somewhere in the middle, as it usually is.

Yellen said in her memo that the CHANCES of an audit for tax payers earning under #400,000 should not increase. Not the actual number of audits. The fact that the IRS audit budget is basically doubling means that the number of audits for households can double and still stay true to the memo.

The IRS, just like any organization will follow the path of least resistance in increasing their income. W2 households have little to fear. Small businesses should be VERY fearful. They look like easy targets because they do not have the expertise or bankrolls to fight the US government.

Anytime a government apparatus is given the mission of creating income, it creates an atmosphere that is ripe for over reach. Unfortunately, despite the best of intentions, this will not end well.

I hope I'm wrong.... we'll see.

Darryl
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With at least 50,000 IRS employees expected to retire over the next five years, Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen has instructed the tax agency to develop a modernization plan. In a memo this week to IRS Commissioner Chuck Rettig, Yellen writes that she wants the IRS, over the next six months, to develop a plan that will outline the importance of modernizing their computer systems, as well as ensuring they maintain appropriate staffing levels. The mandate comes as the tax collection agency is set to receive nearly $80 billion over the next 10 years. According to Yellen’s memo, all of these updates are meant to help identify tax evasion schemes perpetrated by top earners. (Federal News Network)

IRS's actual expenditures were $13.7 billion for overall operations in Fiscal Year (FY) 2021, including supplemental funding to support the IRS's COVID-19 pandemic-related activities (Table 30XLSX).May 26, 2022

2 results Googling

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The IRS budget is going up about $8 b per year. Not a double. Most of the new agents replace retiring agents. Yes small businesspeople need to clean up their act. Cash is going to get reported. Or else!! This is great for the US economy. It insists businesses be more viable to survive.
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Yellen is saying the "chances" of a person making under $400k being audited will not go up. That could be proportional to the number of earners under $400k. That could be if there are x number of audits of the group it will remain at x.

It does not mean if it was x it is now 130% of x going forward assuming the budget is 30% larger. It does not mean the proportion of audits of people under $400k being audited will stay in proportion with the number of people with over $400k being audited. Yellen's point was the proportion would not stay the same. She was making sure more people over $400k would be audited.

The wrinkle is people making under $20k are way over represented in the audit column. The IRS at times wastes its resources to protect the wealthy from being audited by going after the very poor workers. This is also doing on a racist basis.
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Most of the new agents replace retiring agents.

The IRS doesn't have zero-based budgeting. The funding for the current agents will remain. The additional $8 billion/year will be for additional agents (as well as computer upgrades).

DB2
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DB2,

The point is not 87k agents but 37k new agents, the 50k will be replacements.

This money is over due. It more than pays for itself.
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The IRS doesn't have zero-based budgeting. The funding for the current agents will remain. The additional $8 billion/year will be for additional agents (as well as computer upgrades).
---
The point is not 87k agents but 37k new agents, the 50k will be replacements.


Nope. The money is not for replacements. That money is already in the IRS budget as part of the annual appropriation bill. This bill reads in Section 10301, Enhancement of Internal Revenue Service Resources:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/5376...
1(A)(ii) Enforcement
"...Provided, That these amounts shall be in addition to amounts otherwise available for such purposes."

DB2
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"Provided, That these amounts shall be in addition to amounts otherwise available for such purposes."

That is pretty easy to understand.
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Yellen is saying the "chances" of a person making under $400k being audited will not go up.

+++++++++++++

How much comfort would the very many of that class, who gets audited, feel?

The only way to know the above claimed issue is true, is long after the fact. If found out to the contrary by looking at the previous 3-4 years in 2028 or so, will the IRS do a "do over" or just shrug and keep auditing.

We just gave a loaded gun to many more agents with a renewed purpose of finding $$$.



YR
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DB2,

Got your point. Thanks for the clarification.

It is being called a shadow army.....by people objecting to auditing the rich.
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YR,

The bottom line about the shadow army, the wealthy do not want to be audited and come up with this stuff for the rest of us to protect them.

But I will add small cash businesses are at high risk of an audit.
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But I will add small cash businesses are at high risk of an audit.
_____________________________________________________________________

I'm going to guess that is because of the ease of not reporting sales in a cash business.

My business had a tax auditor going through our books for a few months. He did find a single instance where we did not charge sales tax to a school who didn't supply us with a tax exception certificate and then went belly up a couple of years before the audit took place. I think it cost us about five grand - which I would have gladly paid up-front just to keep the Inquisitor out. Of course, my businesses saw nearly zero cash sales and I was very meticulous about paperwork.

That said, I had an acquaintance (who kept his boat in the same yard as mine) who owned a pet shop. He confided to me that he could skim most of the cash because, as he put it, "fish give birth and fish die - there's no way the IRS could keep track of his inventory". He saw nothing wrong in his underpaying his taxes as a business policy.

Nobody likes an audit, but current news stories about a NYC based real estate corporation whose CFO just pleaded guilty to years of tax fraud, shows the importance of auditing the wealthy (both corporately and personally) as well as the middle class.

Jeff
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YR,

The bottom line about the shadow army, the wealthy do not want to be audited and come up with this stuff for the rest of us to protect them.

But I will add small cash businesses are at high risk of an audit.


++++++++++++++

Even if their net income is well below 400K? Seems contrary to certain claims, eh? Any business that has cash as a component will be targeted.

Still the easy money is from the many who don't file and should and those who do their own claims. Less man force, less time spent and more net dollars for the effort.

But hey, let's sell lipstick on that pig and suggest we will only go after the big fish (aka the other guy).

YR
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How much comfort would the very many of that class, who gets audited, feel?

One has to temper your concern with the recognition that those who fear being audited are those who have cheated on their return.

Not to mention that the real point here is that the current budget starved IRS is *not* auditing high end returns because they don't have the budget for it ... high end returns requiring much more effort because of their complexity. And yet, it is known that there is a lot of cheating going on in those returns resulting in significantly reduced revenue for the government.

Seems to me that you are trying to drum up sympathy for the under $400K class as a way of objecting to the legislation when, in fact, nothing is changing for those people.
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One has to temper your concern with the recognition that those who fear being audited are those who have cheated on their return.<?b>


Perhaps you have not run a business, with employees and had an full scale audit. The real fear is did all the hired bean counters do it all correctly? Do you have every receipt and can you explain each transaction? When you run a business you hire folks to do that for you, so having to jump in and "know" what everyone was thinking and why they did what they did is the real fear. You know where the buck stops unlike other folks.

Seems to me that you are trying to drum up sympathy for the under $400K class as a way of objecting to the legislation when, in fact, nothing is changing for those people.

Many times what "life seems to be"...is just your voices in your head seeking to not want to address what is actually happening.

The truth is, I am trying to give a heads up to reality that is pending, IMO! You on the other hand, are oblivious by choice because you are now a "believer".
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Many on this board may know that I volunteer with SCORE.org which is a national organization that is a resource partner of the SBA. We help small businesses with business plans, getting financing from the SBA, and provide other small business assistance - all for free.

During the pandemic, the SBA administered the Paycheck Protection Program (PPP) in addition to their Economic Injury Disaster Loan (EIDL) program. The PPP was essentially a grant program and the EIDL is a fixed, low rate, long term loan guaranteed by the SBA.

I was asked to work with many, many small business owners to help them qualify for the PPP program. You would not believe the number of small businesses that did not have sufficient documentation to prove their payroll expenses so were unable to qualify for the grant program.

Some folks that own small businesses think by "skirting" the tax laws they will be better off, but in the long run, it really is better to pay your taxes and keep your books in good order so that when you need government assistance, you can qualify. A number of these small businesses did not make it through the pandemic - and the only reason they could not stay in business was because they could not qualify for the PPP "free money" grants.

https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/loans/covid-19-relief-o...

https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/disaster-assistance/eco...

'38Packard
- who ran his own small business for many years and was quite OCD about "balancing the books"
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Even if their net income is well below 400K? Seems contrary to certain claims, eh?


YR,

No it is not contrary. Rettig who was appointed IRS commissioner in 2018 is going after people making less than $20k. Possibly the next commissioner depending on the appointment date will go after small cash businesses with a greater focus. The same resources would be used. Or shifted.
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Some folks that own small businesses think by "skirting" the tax laws they will be better off, but in the long run, it really is better to pay your taxes and keep your books in good order so that when you need government assistance, you can qualify. A number of these small businesses did not make it through the pandemic - and the only reason they could not stay in business was because they could not qualify for the PPP "free money" grants.

++++++++++++++

As a small business owner I can vouch for the above in aces. I tell my bookkeeper and CPA firm to just keep me out of trouble. But this also means I have no-little idea why they do what they do. That makes me,as the location where the buck stops, feel quite vulnerable. I cannot be everywhere and know everything the others do. When PPP time came I received far more than I could have imagined, all totally forgiven to date. The guy next door could not even file for any relief, for reasons I do not know directly, but I have my thoughts.

Side note- Back in the 1990's I had a recommended guy come in to update us on the computer generated AR and such. We used his proprietary software. We began to have problems with cash deposits that could not be itemized as cash payments into our account. His reply was, I was the only customer to have this issue and why do you want to be difficult? The rest were not declaring cash payments? I was odd man out. I made him change our program to accept cash payments.

YR
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Perhaps you have not run a business, with employees and had an full scale audit. The real fear is did all the hired bean counters do it all correctly? Do you have every receipt and can you explain each transaction? When you run a business you hire folks to do that for you, so having to jump in and "know" what everyone was thinking and why they did what they did is the real fear. You know where the buck stops unlike other folks.

I have run small businesses and I know that feeling in the pit of your stomach when you open the letter from the IRS. However, you can still make them attack a wolf (ya, I know) instead of a sheep with a little preparation. In that regard, I have two things to mention; internal controls and documentation.

Even small businesses should have internal controls in place (and yes, they should be documented). Internal controls protect both the business and its employees. They also ensure that things are done correctly and consistently. Ask your accountant to help you prepare them. If they balk or have a puzzled look on their face, get new ones.

Documentation, including internal memos, is critical and should be filed in a manner that is easy to retrieve. Having documentation scanned is MUCH easier to store and locate than paper. Documentation is not just invoices, it includes the logic used to make major decisions (via internal memo). I can remember what I had for breakfast today, but three years ago? Not so much.

Auditors are much less likely to keep digging when their questions are answered quickly, rather then “I’ll get back to you next week.” Human nature.

By the way, if you think an IRS audit is gut wrenching, try an OMIG (Office of the Medicaid Inspector General) audit! There are no mistakes. Any error they find is considered fraud (unless you self-disclose it first). They look at a sample of 100 and extrapolate it over 5 or 6 years. In one audit, they found 20 errors, 18 having to do with Issue X (that’s a fictional name) and 2 were employee errors. Extrapolate those 20 over 6 years and you owe us $750k (that’s NOT fictional). But, if you pay us today, we’ll clear the account for $500k. I kid you not.

Well, we had proof that our internal controls were followed and we had documentation for Issue X that included internal memos that reflected OMIG opinion letters. Whew! The conversation went something like this:

AW - here is documentation including an OMIG opinion letter
OMIG - it’s just an opinion, you still owe us the money
AW - you’re kidding, right?
OMIG - do we look like we’re kidding (they didn’t)
AW - see you in court

This dragged on for months while they started withholding part of our Medicaid reimbursements. Then, few weeks before the court date, they settled for $35k (those 2 damn mistakes).

Real sweethearts.

Be the wolf.

AW
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This dragged on for months while they started withholding part of our Medicaid reimbursements. Then, few weeks before the court date, they settled for $35k (those 2 damn mistakes).

Real sweethearts.

Be the wolf.

AW

+++++++++++++++++

In the end many would rally to the IRS side stating at least they caught one tax crook. Still others trying to navigate the same battlefield would suggest the overly complicated tax laws and reporting requirements are so burdensome no one can safely navigate those waters, even with professional help. IMO it is as though, the government puts up hurdles to get you to trip on for a gotcha experience.

Where is reality one this one?

YR
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Perhaps you have not run a business, with employees and had an full scale audit.

Actually, I have. And had an auditor who didn't understand depreciation. Very frustrating.

As for the rest, seems to me that you are just shouting, not adding any insight.
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As for the rest, seems to me that you are just shouting

+++++++++++++++++++

You have to understand the difference between honest skepticism based on experience and those voices in your head turning up the volume on you for some reason.

YR
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You have to understand the difference between honest skepticism based on experience and those voices in your head turning up the volume on you for some reason.

And you should try to understand that not everyone’s experience is the same as yours, and also that it takes money to run a government.

I have had two experiences with the IRS, and while it’s not something I recommend as a leisure pursuit, it also wasn’t such a big deal.

The IRS has been deliberately and maliciously underfunded for the past two decades, and it’s not surprising they have ended up where they are. It’s vastly harder to audit large firms which have complications and returns that run to hundreds, even thousands of pages, so agents have been consciously or unconsciously funneled into going after lower and middle class taxpayers. That should end. The agency is also working with technology from the last century thanks to underfunding, and with increasingly complicated tax laws, aided and abetted by politicians using it as a cudgel to win votes.
That also should end.

How the IRS was Gutted

An eight-year campaign to slash the agency’s budget has left it understaffed, hamstrung and operating with archaic equipment. The result: billions less to fund the government. That’s good news for corporations and the wealthy.

https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-irs-was-gutted

It’s one thing to cite statistics about taxpayers waiting months or years for their refunds because Sisyphean stacks of paper returns are presumably collecting dust at some IRS processing center. It’s another thing to see what the backlog actually looks like.

This week, we’re getting a real-life glimpse of the problem, courtesy of Natasha Sarin, a tax policy counselor for the U.S. Treasury. Sarin shared a photo on social media that she says shows an Austin-based IRS facility overflowing with crates of unprocessed paper returns. Even more astounding is that the photo was not taken in an IRS warehouse or storage room, but in a cafeteria.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90761498/the-irs-backlog-of-pape...
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And you should try to understand that not everyone’s experience is the same as yours, and also that it takes money to run a government.

++++++++++++++

It cuts both ways. Government should be mindful on how they spend others money and stay within a budget. When they refuse to do that, they become a belligerent Robin Hood about collecting more from those that have.

The transition is now here and forced upon us by the "spending class" of elected officials. The story line now will be that the only reason they cannot give away more to certain others, is now because the evil others won't give up their fair share!! and NOT because the government officals are spending recklessly.

Game on.

YR
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YR,

It is not reckless spending at all. Read the comments on what those spending bills accomplish.

The reason we have all the federal debt we have is saving a few pennies and killing several dollars. Penny wise pound foolish. The federal government gets things done.

Your mantra that the federal government fails to get things done is no longer believable to most people. Most people see the mantra as harmful to the nation's interests.
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Sarin shared a photo on social media that she says shows an Austin-based IRS facility overflowing with crates of unprocessed paper returns.

Also from the same link...

At the IRS in Austin, cafeteria is overrun with paper returns awaiting processing by campus’s dedicated employees who will *keystroke* line items into the IRS’s database

Wait! This is crazy. I do not understand why the IRS cannot scan these returns using OCR technology (been around since the 80's) to convert paper to digital format and get these returns processed into their system? Why would anyone be "keystroking" anything today?

(OK - I'd say if someone sent their return in on a Led Zeppelin T-shirt I get it - but all I saw in that photo was reams and reams of 8x10 paper).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_character_recognition

I've been an IT guy my entire career and also highly doubt that the IRS will EVER re-write their systems from legacy mainframe technology.

'38Packard
- I hope they prove me wrong.... but I doubt it.
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Wait! This is crazy. I do not understand why the IRS cannot scan these returns using OCR technology (been around since the 80's) to convert paper to digital format and get these returns processed into their system? Why would anyone be "keystroking" anything today?

It is not crazy, Rettig is in charge since 2018. Every dollar wasted is one more dollar not used to audit the wealthy. It is purposeful.

Lawyers have been put on phonebanks to answer questions from people who earn under $20k per year but have been audited. Of course the same point wasting resources to protect the wealthy.
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The federal government gets things done.

Your mantra that the federal government fails to get things done is no longer believable to most people. Most people see the mantra as harmful to the nation's interests.

++++++++++++++++++

LMAO.

My feelings are the government overspends, in your world that is not possible. I hope you have a spouse that thinks the same way with YOUR finances!

YR
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I hope you have a spouse that thinks the same way with YOUR finances!

YR,

Do you picture your finances as being proportional or rationalized if you could as the federal government's?

That is totally illogical. You have not studied public finance. Your opinions are not informed.
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The IRS has been deliberately and maliciously underfunded for the past two decades, and it’s not surprising they have ended up where they are.

I'm a professional tax preparer and advisor. This is exactly correct.

Early in my career, I learned exactly how small (small in the bigger picture, which is still multi-millions in sales), closely held businesses cheat on their taxes.

As a college grad and a not-yet CPA working at a CPA firm to get the experience needed for that last bit of sheepskin on the wall, I dug into plenty of sets of books to prepare monthly financial statements. We had one particular client who had components of his product produced in Japan, then imported by the container load for final assembly. The company routinely sent wire transfers to pay for these containers. There were typically two or three of these payments each month. The amounts were pretty much in a range, depending on the exchange rate with the Yen and exactly which products were in the container. At any rate, this was a common transaction and I knew how to record it on the books.

So one month, I see a wire transfer that is a bit different. It's to a different company, but the amount is in the typical range for a container. I dutifully bring it to my boss's attention, asking if maybe they are working with a new supplier. He tells me that it is the car the owner just bought for himself, but book it like a container purchase anyway.

And thus the lesson was taught and learned. Business owners cheat on their taxes, and with private companies, the accountants for those businesses are expected to facilitate that cheating.

I saw similar things happen at different jobs and with multiple different clients. Writing off vacations as travel expenses. Writing off family dinners as a business meeting. Writing off a personal party as a charitable contribution (complete with charitable documentation from the religious organization where the party was held). Writing off home improvements as repairs for the business warehouse.

I can pretty much guarantee that the stuff I saw is penny ante stuff compared to the really big boys. And that is where the dearth of auditing over the last two decades has cost all of us.

Large, complex businesses are hard to audit. And with the poor funding for the IRS, those audits don't happen. Money has to be re-directed to keeping antiquated computer systems running and the massive volume of individual returns processed. Toss in a pandemic which gives many people incentive to simply quit a job where they are routinely disrespected by their major constituency (the people of the country), and the general inability to work from home for security reasons (do you really want IRS employees taking your return home to process it remotely from there?) and you have a recipe for near-disaster levels of problems.

What are the economics of adding 87k IRS agents? The economics are that those agents more than pay for themselves in increased collections, a smaller tax gap, and having enough people to actually do the job the IRS needs to do. Frankly, they probably need that much money again to really get the agency working the way it should.

--Peter

PS - I should follow this up with a shout out to the vast majority of my clients over the years who DON'T cheat on their taxes. Of course, many have little to no opportunity to cheat because they don't run a business. All of their income and some deductible items are reported to the IRS, which makes cheating nearly impossible.
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YR, You are trying to make heroes out of tax cheats. You should quit while you are behind. Stop digging. I am running out of metaphors.
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One has to temper your concern with the recognition that those who fear being audited are those who have cheated on their return.

"The process is the punishment."

"Lawfare."

Never been audited yet, but everything I've heard from those who have is that it's a royal pain - ever if the auditors find nothing out of line.
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Never been audited yet, but everything I've heard from those who have is that it's a royal pain - ever if the auditors find nothing out of line.

Yep! At least in my case (this post is from near the beginning of this thread:

https://boards.fool.com/irs-enforcers-are-not-thugs-they-are...

Cheers!
Murph
BL Home Fool
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