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You may be wondering why I set up the experience polls. I know I should have put option "same" but the main point is this: I believe that on average, women have more sexual experiences than men.
WHy? Because they give the green light. If a man wants sex, it is usually the woman who says yes or no. When a woman wants some, it is hard to find a man who will deny her.
So the main point is this: Women control to a large degree, the occassion of sexual congress. Men, on the other hand have much less control over when they are going to the promised land.
Yes, I know that women will insist that some men can and do seduce them, but I would figure that it is more likely that it happens the other way around most times.
SO men who expect to find a virgin when they get married, which was at one time a big deal in this society, are not likely to find one. On the other hand, women who want to find a virgin when they get married are much more likely to find a man who hasn't gotten lucky before.

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I believe that on average, women have more sexual experiences than men.

Not the nice girls I hang out with. They're typically horrified when they learn how many sexual partners I've had, and I've not had all THAT many more than my friends. For example I've slept with five times as many people as my girlfriend (though she's only 24 and I'm 28).

Women control to a large degree, the occassion of sexual congress. Men, on the other hand have much less control over when they are going to the promised land.

What you've failed to consider is that women are much less enthused by the idea of shagging multiple partners than men are. There are both biological and cultural factors at work there. Obviously it doesn't always work out that way, but MOST women are less promiscuous than MOST men in my experience.

men who expect to find a virgin when they get married, which was at one time a big deal in this society, are not likely to find one. On the other hand, women who want to find a virgin when they get married are much more likely to find a man who hasn't gotten lucky before.


It's perfectly possible for either sex to find a virgin to marry. Of course, you're generally going to have to substantially lower your standards (either personality wise or looks) because everyone I know who's even remotely attractive and/or personable has got some by the age of 25. Unless they're some religious freak or something.


Jon

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I believe that on average, women have more sexual experiences than men.

<nitpick>
Assuming that you are talking about equal populations, and one on one hetero sex, this is impossible. The average will be the same.

</nitpick>

However, if you are assuming that the average woman has sex more than the average man, that is possible.
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. When a woman wants some, it is hard to find a man who will deny her.


That's because they all live around here.

Starr....access denied
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Of course, you're generally going to have to substantially lower your standards (either personality wise or looks) because everyone I know who's even remotely attractive and/or personable has got some by the age of 25.

Crud, so if I didn't get married at 23 my chances of *scoring* within 2 years would have been....ah, probably nil.

Odee
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What you've failed to consider is that women are much less enthused by the idea of shagging multiple partners than men are. There are both biological and cultural factors at work there. Obviously it doesn't always work out that way, but MOST women are less promiscuous than MOST men in my experience.

I agree with Jon here. Our society still judges women who sleep around more harshly than men who do, so I think a lot of women are less promiscuous simply to protect their reputation.

- KG
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Our society still judges women who sleep around more harshly than men who do, so I think a lot of women are less promiscuous simply to protect their reputation

Or they just don't brag about it.

Andrea
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Obviously it doesn't always work out that way, but MOST women are less promiscuous than MOST men in my experience.

So, if women aren't having sex with as many men as men are with women, who are all these women that the promiscuous men are having sex with? Is there a "dirty dozen" or something making the rounds? :-)

Andrea




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So, if women aren't having sex with as many men as men are with women, who are all these women that the promiscuous men are having sex with? Is there a "dirty dozen" or something making the rounds? :-)

Andrea


My best guess is that there's a few very promiscuous women about (sadly I've only met a few of them) who sleep with tons of men. The rest of the ladies out there are far more restrained. Or possibly just lie about it when asked their numbers!

I should have done that - almost lost the new girlfriend when I told her how many. Luckily she'd already had the opportunity to sample the techniques which I've had time to practice so figured the advantages outweighed the issues ;)

Jon
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<nitpick>
Assuming that you are talking about equal populations, and one on one hetero sex, this is impossible. The average will be the same.

</nitpick>

This is not a mathematical exercise. It is a question about human behavoir which is outside the province of mathematics.
How's that for picking nits?
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(Warning--long and ranty. Sorry.)


So, if women aren't having sex with as many men as men are with women, who are all these women that the promiscuous men are having sex with? Is there a "dirty dozen" or something making the rounds? :-)


I don't know about adult women, but my mom is a child psychiatrist in Texas, and she sees a lot of teenage girls with incredibly low self esteem who will do *anything* to get attention from boys. I hear some very sad stories, like when the guys make a line and get girls to go down the line, giving fellatio to every guy in the line. The latest thing that's been happening in sixth grade is the guys get in a big group, collect money, and pay two girls to kiss like they saw Brittany and Madonna kissing, and then they give the money to the boyfriends of the girls. The guys all stand around in a big circle with the girls in the middle, and cheer and stuff.

Kids are eleven in sixth grade, BTW. Sigh.

Granted, my mom sees people with serious problems, but I would imagine it wouldn't take very many promiscuous girls to skew the numbers, if they are as promiscuous as my mom tells me. There are girls who get crushes on the adult male nurses in the psych ward, and do stuff to get sent back so they can hit on them. Sometimes the male nurses have to be sent out for their own protection.

And there is the case in Costa Mesa going on right now, where a fifteen or sixteen year old girl was videotaped drinking a drink then getting raped by three guys while passed out on a pool table. The details are pretty darn gory. I feel like the California section should be rated R these days. She had slept with two of the three guys the previous day, and gone skinny dipping with the third (which is the guys' defense, that she was just pretending to be passed on the videotape and that she'd done stuff with them before, so it wasn't like there wasn't implied consent...never mind that she pees herself on the pool table and they laugh and she doesn't move a muscle...).

Sigh. Sorry. I seem to be wavering between lighthearted fun innuendo and deep, dark, angry thoughts these days. I guess I should have gone with a math example for how a couple of high numbers can skew an average...


--Booa
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I agree with Jon here. Our society still judges women who sleep around more harshly than men who do, so I think a lot of women are less promiscuous simply to protect their reputation.


Not to mention that there can be some really unpleasant consequences to having sex, like pregnancy, STDs, or death....

Cassandra
very protective of her body
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Sigh. Sorry. I seem to be wavering between lighthearted fun innuendo and deep, dark, angry thoughts these days. I guess I should have gone with a math example for how a couple of high numbers can skew an average...

Yeah, well, I have heard about the sorry state of teenage girls these days. It's really sad and it's extremely disturbing.

But I did think we were talking about women of legal age.

Unless the older guys are doing it with 13 year olds.

Andrea
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Cassandra
very protective of her body


If you need help guarding your body, I'm sure you'd have no problem finding an able-bodied man to patrol it for you.

DK, donning a security guard uniform
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If you need help guarding your body, I'm sure you'd have no problem finding an able-bodied man to patrol it for you.

DK, donning a security guard uniform


Ooh, you might not be wearing that uniform for long, hon!

Cassandra
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I agree with Jon here. Our society still judges women who sleep around more harshly than men who do, so I think a lot of women are less promiscuous simply to protect their reputation.


Not to mention that there can be some really unpleasant consequences to having sex, like pregnancy, STDs, or death....

Cassandra
very protective of her body


I was thinking that too, but was unable to find the right way to say it. Thanks for verbalizing it so well.

- KG
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I know I should have put option "same" but the main point is this: I believe that on average, women have more sexual experiences than men.

If you already thought you KNEW the answer, then why post a poll at all?

If you don't, then why not include "the same"?

Sign me...

Puzzled
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Unless the older guys are doing it with 13 year olds.

Some are. :-( One of the teachers at my high school was "dating" a freshman, which I didn't find out about until years later. She was fourteen, but that's close. And my mom sees patients up until they turn eighteen, so some of these people she mentions are teenagers and dating guys anywhere from two to twenty years older than them. And those girls grow up into women, and sometimes they haven't addressed the self-esteem or other issues and keep on with the promiscuity. That's what I was trying to say, but I got sidetracked. Sorry.


--Booa (will try to lighten up, I promise)

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Unless the older guys are doing it with 13 year olds.

Some are. :-( One of the teachers at my high school was "dating" a freshman, which I didn't find out about until years later. She was fourteen, but that's close. And my mom sees patients up until they turn eighteen, so some of these people she mentions are teenagers and dating guys anywhere from two to twenty years older than them. And those girls grow up into women, and sometimes they haven't addressed the self-esteem or other issues and keep on with the promiscuity. That's what I was trying to say, but I got sidetracked. Sorry.



I think there are a lot of guys out there who like dating (and other activities) with girls/women who are quite a bit younger. (And I'm certain there are very many more who like to date women their age)


I admit to having a pretty short period of time where I went out with other guys, but none were less than 3 or 4 years my senior, however that's mostly due to the unusual situation of being much younger than my peers in school....started out a year early, then at 15 I was off to college so I was always exposed to guys who were about 4 or more years older.

I think many abused girls become promiscuous but not all of them. I had three partners I regret to some degree and only a half dozen total (and that include any form of sexual contact), all before I married at 19. Yes, that's probably way too much info, but who really cares about what I did 20+ years ago? Somedays that feels pretty slutty, but it's probably less than many sexually abused girls, and I have no comparisons to women who didn't grow up abused or are single longer.

Two partners were older enough that they should have known better, even if I did look and act older than my years, and took advantage of opportunity.

One was the 17 year old boy who I thought of as my first teen boyfriend and the one who gave me my first "real kiss". Problem was I was only 12. I was a classic case of an undersupervised, neglected child. I got over my head very fast and had no clue how to get out of it gracefully, or otherwise. I was spending time with him before and during the worst of the abuse, so being with him was preferable to being at home. He's also the first person I attempted to tell about the abuse, but I only hinted to it and he was too clueless and dealing with his own issues to pick up on it. I never felt he was trying to take advantage of a vulnerable girl, he was just a normal hormone driven teen and I was just "his girlfriend" even if I was several years younger. (There's a reason I watch over my kids so carefully!)

The second falls under the low self esteem/promiscuity category, I was 15 but looked and acted 20, at summer camp as a CIT and an easy mark, desperately seeking attention. He was 26 and a camp counselor. He should have known better, had to have known better and didn't care, so he gets tossed into the "jerk/cad" category.

I've never been angry with either though. Regretted getting into those situations, sure. Shook my head at the counselor, definitely. But never angry.

The third was the only one I've deeply regretted. This was the one time that I felt like I was really acting out/reacting to the abuse and the stress I was under, and dealing with self worth issues. Had lots of reprocussions. He was only 3 years older. He was using me, I was using him. It was ugly.

Of course I don't count the pediphilic creep among that number. He has his own category. I've been through the whole gamut of negative emotions with him. He made my life a living hell for 5 years. I dealt with everything from fear for my life to murderous rage to grief for the family I deserved to have. There's a special place in hell waiting for him.

Happily for me, the story ends on a good note. My only other two partners were/are the loves of my life. One was someone I spent a year with at college, and the other was my high school sweetheart and now my husband. We'll be married 20 years next week.

Always ;-)
Hunzi












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HUnzi, thanks for your story. I know of two women in my life who grew up abused by their fathers and it has certainly made their relationships with men very difficult for them. One ended up very promiscuous and has had literally hundreds of guys, and the other, whose father is probably the worst monster I have ever heard of, luckily married a wonderful guy and is happy and safe.

I will probably never ever understand why some men do these things. It just doesnt make sense at all.

And there is a third woman, who I have recently gotten too involved with who is in real big trouble because she refuses to deal with what her father did to her, and the fact that her mother did nothing but blame her for it. Very very sad, and something I have no clue as what to do to help her. If I had remained only a friend, I could have been some help, but I got way too close and no longer can.

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If you already thought you KNEW the answer, then why post a poll at all?

If you don't, then why not include "the same"?

Sign me...

Puzzled


Hey retired, what is it with you?
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And there is a third woman, who I have recently gotten too involved with who is in real big trouble because she refuses to deal with what her father did to her, and the fact that her mother did nothing but blame her for it.

Warning: really long! This wasn't quite what I expected to write, but the whole story just came out. Warning! This isn't pretty.

The absolute worst thing about being abused was the emotional fallout.

As a child I worshiped the ground my dad walked on. I knew my parents had a troubled marriage (my father was a philanderer), but it didn't really cause me any alarm because they never really argued around us kids. I do recall her packing bags and leaving once when I was 6, and him packing bags and nearly leaving as my mother begged him to stay when I was around 8. However, by the age of 12, I was becoming aware of the fact that parents got divorced and that could seriously change the family's lives.

When my father abused me for the first time, he naturally told me not to tell my mother. I was so completely shocked and ashamed of what he had done that telling someone was the furthest thing from my mind. The person I would have trusted with my life and I adored above all others (expect my Grandmother) had just done something to me I didn't even know about until that moment. With no warning. No, nasty little games, nothing to make me even suppect it might happen. One day I curled up to watch Star Trek with my dad and ended up sexually assulted.

I believed that somehow, my mother would have a nervous collapse if she knew, she'd divorce him and we'd end up living in poverty someplace, and I knew my Grandmother, whom I was the only highly doted upon granddaughter of her only child, her son, and was truly the classiest most Southern lady I ever had the priviledge of knowing would drop dead of a heart attack on hearing the news. Besides, things like this didn't happen to nice girls like me and I wasn't going to end up like those trashy foster kids down the street. Such is the mind of a 12 year old victim of a sudden violent sexual assault.

But I decided it wasn't going to happen a second time, and locked my bedroom door the next night and put a chair under the door handle. (My parents owned a 24hr restaurant, father worked the day shift, mom worked the night shift, struggling to keep it going, but it was failing. My 18yr old sister had moved out of the house after an arguement with my parents because they disapproved of her much older boyfriend, and my younger brother was only 7, so I was basically trapped in the house with a predator alone every night.) My mother came home from work the next morning, came to wake me up for school and yelled at me for having the door blocked because it was such a fire hazard. I laughed inside at that. But it wouldn't have stopped me from locking my door.

What did stop me from locking it was that my father came home that afternoon and came into my room. I'm sure he was afraid of what he had done and how I would react, but he didn't talk about it. Instead he began to yell at me about the condition of my room. It was a little messy but nothing serious. I knew the fight was really about the door. I was defiant, but having grown up a good kid, not overly disrespectful. But the complete contempt I held him in was obvious. So he pulled off his 2 inch leather belt and threatened to spank me. I don't know if I refused to reply or said something he thought was disrespectful, but I remember standing at the end of my bed, holding onto the foot board as he spanked me.

I wouldn't cry.

I refused to let him see me cry. I was so angry at him.

So he continued to beat me. Somewhere after I counted a hundred hits with that belt, I couldn't keep from crying any longer. And he stopped and left.

I crawled into bed and went to sleep.

The next day I begged off dressing out for junior high gym because I was one solid bruise from waist to knees. I could barely move. Every thing hurt.

But by day 2, I didn't think I could justify not dressing out. It would affect my grade afterall. So I did. I remember one of the girls in the locker room was so shocked she dropped her clothes. I told everyone my dad had spanked me because he was mad at me for not cleaning up my room.

I think the school called home asking about it, because later that afternoon my mom asked about it and asked to see my legs. I showed her. (Nowadays I would have never made it home without a visit from a social worker, but this was the late 70's). I told my mom the same story, that he had spanked me over the state of my room. I just couldn't make myself tell her the truth because it was just too awful. She accepted the story because he had lost his temper once before when I was 7. My then 3 year old brother got into his fishing equiptment in the carport, and I was out playing in the front yard. He felt I should have been responsible and watched over my brother, cut a switch off the tree and whipped me with it about a dozen times. I remember having welts but no bruises.

So I kept the secret and suffered through months of molestation because I was afraid the next time he lost his temper I could end up dead.

Then the restaurant failed and he moved to Florida ahead of us to find a job while my mother closed out the business and sold our house. I had about a four month reprieve. I hoped the abuse would stay stopped when we joined him in Florida at Christmas break.

It didn't.

We stayed at a little motor court motel my Godparents owned when we first arrived. My Godparents gave my parents a room of their own, "so they could have some alone time after being away so long". My sister had decided the boyfriend was the loser my parents said he was, left him and made up with our parents, and moved down to Florida with us, so we three kids had a room. Christmas morning, as eldest she claimed the bathroom first. The 8 yr old dweeb got dressed as fast as he could and ran to the Godparent's house to see what Santa had left for him. I waited because I wanted a shower too. As she finished in the bathroom and walked out the door to the house, my father came in, saying he needed to use our bathroom to shave because mom had taken over theirs. I paniced and tried to dress as fast as I could while he was in there. I wasn't fast enough. He raped me. I was 13. Merry Christmas.

My Grandparents were up at the house. There was no way I was going to report this. I was still too busy protecting the family from the ugly truth.

The molestation went on for 2 more years. Once I had a serious high school boyfriend, who I did tell about the abuse and who loved me, protected me, and supported me, the abuse reduced to sexual harrassment until I moved out at 17.

During those years between 12 & 17, my anger and contempt for my father became more and more obvious. I basically went from thinking he was a god, to refusing to acknowledge he was in the room. My mother was baffled but somehow thought this was teenaged rebellion. (Now of course now, as a mom, there's NO WAY I would have stayed with a man that had so little respect for our marriage or hit my kids. I've never understood how she thought so little of herself when she was the main breadwinner, smart, and had a family who would have been very supportive.)

Being so far away emotionally to my father, I seriously bonded with my mom. From 12 - 17, she was a cool mom. We went places together, even had a few classes together once I started attending the community college where she worked. I needed one strong involved parent.

She just wasn't strong enough. It was obvious my father was a bum. He held crappy jobs and quit them just before Christmas, he was rumored to be fooling around, I was dripping contempt for him and he was a lousey parent to my siblings.

I finally told her about the abuse at 17. It was the hardest thing I had ever done. I couldn't make the words come out of my mouth. She was stunned. She told us (BF & I) to take my 12yr old brother out for the evening. When we came back, my father was gone. She had thrown him out. Whew! It's finally over.

The next morning instead of taking me to college, she drove to the Rape Crisis Center. I was shocked and furious. I hadn't kept this secret for so long to have it told to complete strangers who then wanted to "talk to me about it". Especially some stupid grad student who wanted me to "write a letter to my father telling him how I felt". Looking back, I can't believe how inept they were. I wanted nothing to do with them, refused to talk at the appointments and ended the "therapy".

I had accomplished my goal as far as I was concerned. He was out of my house. The abuse was over. End of story. I wasn't the one who needed effing therapy! My mother eventually quit taking me there and began seeing someone herself. I watched her sink into a deep depression. To this day she's clinically depressed.

By this time, I was counting down the weeks until I left for the University. I lived in happy denial until one night my father, whom my mother had been seeing and attending counseling with, came back home and spent the night. I practically had a nervous breakdown. Threw a huge tantrum any two year old would have been proud of, and they left for my father's place taking my brother with them. I cried the whole night. The weekend I moved out for college, my father moved back in. I have no idea what sort of lies he told her, but she abandoned me emotionally after that.

Once I was out of the house, I went into complete denial. Hey, life was good! I had a car, a place to live, friends, my BF asked me to marry him, what more could I ask for? I went home occasionally and pretended it never happened and everyone was happy. Except I began having panic attacks before I took the MCATs. I went to the doctor, they sent me to the mental health clinic. I was ready to talk. I sat there for over an hour then felt silly and left before anyone called me. I blew off the MCAT.

I got married, changed majors because I couldn't finish my Biology degree in Germany (stupid because I only had 12 hours left), and lived happily ever after. Sort of.

It took a few more years before I was really ready to deal with the abuse. I went through a seriously stressful period of 3 months where I had a weirdest day where I got 2 flat tires and broke my arm falling on the ice (funny story about the worst day of my life another time), my Godfather and both Grandmothers dies in a 6 week period necessitating funeral trips home and lots of exposure to family, I was laid off my job, ran out of money while working on my Master's, and found out I was pregnant after a possible cancer scare. I did a lot of self therapy, but eventually, I finally realized I needed to talk to someone.

I broke ties with my parents after my paternal Grandfather's funeral. (He and I were close, and I had eventually told him what his son had done after my Grandmother passed away.) at the funeral, I realized I didn't feel comfortable being in the same room with the person who had raped, beaten and abused me. I certainly didn't want to pretend everything was ok anymore. I wasn't rude, but I declined to spend any time witht them. My mother wouldn't speak to me. My father came to my sister's home demanding to see me. I refused. He had the audacity to tell my husband that he wasn't at fault, I had come on to him. My husband managed to reframe from hitting him.

I went home and straight back into a counselor's office. This time to deal with the grief of losing my family.

It's been 12 years since that happened. For a long time, the worst part of the abuse was the isolation I felt after cutting off ties. I still stay in contact with my sister, and over the years we found a balance of being close and not putting her into the middle of the arguement. She wasn't abused and has some contact with them. My brother and I were never close from childhood. He was the pesty competitor who arrived to be crown prince when I was supreme princess of the universe, then about the time I might have forgiven him for that, I was too busy trying to stay alive and healthy to worry about him. I don't know if he was ever abused, I doubt it because my father prefers little girls, but the lack of parental involvement in his life left him adrift and he's grown into a drug abusing loser. He had two kids as a teen with a teenaged bride, then they both drifted off to new lovers never bothering to divorce. The kids drifted back and forth, but mostly with the white trash mom and her latest boyfriend. I phoned my brother once, told him what had happened to me, and warned him not to leave his children with our dad, but eventually neither set of parents wanted the children and left them to be raised by MY PARENTS! I didn't find out until the girl child was 12. I immediately called the child protective services and told them my story and had them check on the welfare of the kids. After several interviews with the kids, they decided they hadn't been abused, but planned to keep watch because my father gave them the creeps. I found out it might not be too late to file charges, and called the police in both Florida and Virginia. The statute of limitations had ended on the rape in Florida because I was 13. If I had been 12, there would be no limit. I filed a report anyway. I was only 12 in Virginia where there is no statute on this crime, and they took my story very seriously, but lacked the funds to fly an investigator to Florida to interview my father. The investigator told me to call if he was ever in VA or an adjoining state and they'd be happy to drive down and question him.

Filing the charges finally was a powerful and healing thing. I doubt I'll ever see any legal justice for what he did to me. I'll leave that to God. My justice has been in living a lifestyle that is nothing like the one I grew up in, having a solid marriage of 20 years, and raising kids who have never know that kind of fear and insecurity.

At my Granddaddy's funeral, I told one of my older cousins of the abuse. She's my father's 1st cousin. I had a large extended family of cousins whom I lost touch with when my Grandmother died, because she was the glue that held them all together. My cousin believed me, and took me under her wing and put me back in touch with all the loved ones I had been missing. She gave me back my family.

The best revenge is living well.

Always ;-)
Hunzi










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{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Hunzi}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I don't know what to say, other than I have the utmost respect and admiration for you, for surviving and thriving the way you have.

And that I hope there's a special pit in hell for your father, and people like him.


--Booa

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That was really tough to read Hunzi. I can't even comprehend living it. You have my deepest respect. I have a twelve year old daughter, who on occasion still sits on my lap for a hug and a kiss goodnite.

Dad's big hands and strong hugs should instill safety and comfort. Kids should have an involuntary belief that their parents are not only safe but will do any thing they can to keep them safe from others. It should be naturally instilled in the way parents interact, nurture, protect, and love them. That a man can do that to his daughter defies explanation.

Such an animal is the personification of evil in my view.

Hunzi, you are some kind of human being. I have never read a more optimistic upbeat presentation by a survivor then your commentary in the aftermath. Your family (current) is blessed.

coyote97
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Hunzi, you are a brave, strong, and beautiful woman. I am so sorry you had to experience all of that. I know from my own past that telling the story to compassionate people is so important and you did that here.

I believe in the laws of Karma and certainly your mother and father will have to pay either in this lifetime or another. There is a greater justice than any we humans can mete out.

I'm so happy that you have your family back. Peace comes slowly, but you are well on your way.

MizL

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I don't know what to say, honey, except that you are a terribly strong and brave woman.

I am proud that you are my friend.

Td
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Hunzi sweetheart, congradulations. You have lived through hell and you have made your way into heaven.
Many many women who have suffered as you have end up sadly having lifelong problems with relationships. A condition called Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) (see www.bpdcentral.com) is a problem for many of them. In order to survive the extreme stress of growing up as you have, under such awful conditions, BPD's develop personality structures that protect them as children, but end up becoming part of their personality as adults, which undermines their ability to function as adults in interpersonal relationships.
Not all survivors of sexual assault and abuse by parents and neglect by the other parent end up this way, as you have obviously not. I have a friend whose wife went through the same situation, only her father went after all the girls, and the boys too. Three of the sons ended up like their father, one committed suicide, one is in jail and one daughter is screwed up. My friend's wife is well adjusted and happy and a good wife and mother.
The woman I got involved with was not so lucky. She has countless failed relationships which always end up destructive for her unlucky husbands or boyfriends. I tried to help her, but, unfortunately, I got too emotionally involved with her myself and our friendship ended, so I can no longer help her. She just refuses to deal with what happened to her and her twin brother. She has many sisters and almost all of them have had serious relationship problems. Her mother was cold and unsupportive, and blamed her for what happened. The damage done to her and her life is very distressing to me, because I do care about what happens to her. Maybe someday, she will do as you have done and get the help she needs and a good man as well.

Thank you so very much for sharing your story with us.

Ed
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The best revenge is living well.
Always ;-)
Hunzi


You got that right kiddo!(grin). My old man often remarked "Son, if you let the creeps decide how you are going to feel today, they have won already!". This jerk is still alive? and if so , why?
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It is better that he is still alive. This way, as she lives a good life, he can suffer when he realizes it was in spite of him rather than because of him.

Plus it always leaves open the option of her publically confronting the son of a bitch and letting all of his friends and relatives know what a piece of crap his life was.

Maybe someday he will say, as my grandfather once told me: "I led a rotten life, don't ever do what I have done".

He left my dad at 5 and his 3 brothers as wards of the state, and his wife sick in the hospital, in the middle of the depression for one of his many girlfriends. He never molested a child, but he was so filled with remorse at the end of his life for the things he did do that he condemned himself to exile and a lonely death.

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Hunzi--Too bad you can't plaster the town he lives in with your letter naming him as a child sex abuser sicko sadist creep.

That bastard. Animals like him need to be exposed for what they are. Transparency can only protect other people. It was so right of you to contact CPS.

Hope this brightens your day a bit:
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2588192/
May 23, 2004, 10:52PM

Mob of kids chase down suspicious stranger
Copyright 2004 Houston Chronicle
Wielding baseball bats and sticks, a mob in northwest Houston today chased down a man suspected of preying on neighborhood children in recent weeks.


(((((((((Hugs)))))))))))))

LuceLu
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This jerk is still alive? and if so , why?


He's still alive. Still creepy.

I seriously considered killing him when I was 14, shortly before I met my future DH who offered me a better way to deal with it. It was my last option.

Ironically, my DBF/DH later told me he had confided about the situation with his best friend, who is a serious redneck. Darling redneck offered to make my father disappear. Cue the music to Deliverance. My DBF, sensible man that he was, declined the offer.

Now I can only worry about the kids in the home with him. I know my mom still works, but from what my sister tells me, it sounds to me like she's seriously depressed. The kids are 15 & 12 now. I had CPS check on them when they were 12 & 9 when I realized they were living with my parents. Social workers concluded they hadn't been abused. I'm hoping that the investigation put my father on notice and he left them alone. I made it clear to the social workers that I'd happily testify if needed.

My children have never met my parents. (Actually my almost 3 yr old son met them once when I went to my grandfather's funeral). I'd never let a child within 100 yards of my father. If he ever touched my kids, he would most assuredly be dead. I even have it noted in our wills that if something happens to both DH & I there should be no visitation by them and why. Our appointed guardians also know.

The bastard will probably get away with it on earth, but I'm certain he'll answer for it before the final Judge.

Always ;-)
Hunzi





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Maybe someday he will say, as my grandfather once told me: "I led a rotten life, don't ever do what I have done".


He has no remorse. He had the audacity to tell my husband that I was the one at fault.

The social workers who investigated my neice & nephew told me that he gave them the creeps. They know what he is. He just hadn't done anything they could charge him with, and the statue had run out on my crime. <I'll save you the rant on time limitations on the rape & molestation of children>

Always
Hunzi

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I even have it noted in our wills that if something happens to both DH & I there should be no visitation by them and why. Our appointed guardians also know.


I felt this portion of your post required repeating. Kudos for doing your homework!

Want to help me do my homework?
-- Will
-- Trust
-- Insurance review
-- Personal directive
-- POAs
-- massive decluttering, analyzing life direction, possible move to another state?
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My justice has been in living a lifestyle that is nothing like the one I grew up in, having a solid marriage of 20 years, and raising kids who have never know that kind of fear and insecurity.

Hunzi you have my symphaties and I congratulate you. No child should experience what you went through and few are able to survive it and enjoy a meaningful and successful life as an adult. You are a very strong woman. I have a close relative with a similar story who is still undergoing therapy. She is finding that many of her fears and limitations in daily life are grounded in her childhood, both directly from the abuse but also the general insecurity in a home where this type of thing can happen. The therapy is invaluable, even when she thinks there's nothing further to deal with regarding the abuse and losing her family directly. By observing and supporting I have learned that what you went through is so traumatic for a child, and not less the surviving adult, that it can not be accurately described in words. Ironically, the best therapy and a sign that you have come a long way is that you are telling us about it in words. I'm sitting in my office crying but I'm so happy for you.
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The best revenge is living well.

Always ;-)
Hunzi


That can never be repeated enough. Thank you for sharing your story with us -- you're one kickass inspirational woman.

::hugs::

overspent
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Ironically, my DBF/DH later told me he had confided about the situation with his best friend, who is a serious redneck. Darling redneck offered to make my father disappear. Cue the music to Deliverance. My DBF, sensible man that he was, declined the offer.


If it was me, I would keep my redneck friend in escrow, just in case. If this mansized chunk of primordial ooze stepped one toe out of line and I found out about it, I would simply unleash said redneck. Accidents happen, people disappear, that sort of thing. You know, a meteor could crash through the living room ceiling and squash him like the cockroach he is. Poetic justice, non?
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Hunzi:
Ironically, my DBF/DH later told me he had confided about the situation with his best friend, who is a serious redneck. Darling redneck offered to make my father disappear. Cue the music to Deliverance. My DBF, sensible man that he was, declined the offer.
==============================
bundori:
If it was me, I would keep my redneck friend in escrow, just in case. If this mansized chunk of primordial ooze stepped one toe out of line and I found out about it, I would simply unleash said redneck. Accidents happen, people disappear, that sort of thing. You know, a meteor could crash through the living room ceiling and squash him like the cockroach he is. Poetic justice, non?


Moral of the story: it's good to have redneck friends.

DK, redneck
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He's still alive. Still creepy.

the Donor - my abuser - is still alive. he re-married about 10 years ago. I had felt guilty (slightly) over the years that I had not contacted the woman to tell her to keep her grandkids away from him.

After my grandma passed away, the "new" wife called me. She said things like how they missed grandma, blah, blah, blah - and had I heard anything about the will? HA! After 10 years of being married to this creep - she calls to mine information from me about his mother's will.

I ended up asking if she wondered why we didn't have any contact. She said that there had been some "accusations." I set her straight and told her just what kind of a "man" she was married to. She was in complete denial. She said, "I've never seen anything like that in him." Well, for her sake - perhaps he has changed - doubtful. The only requirement I ever made was that he went to counseling - then I would consider speaking to him. He opted out. Fine with me. I had told her to keep her grandkids away from him. She said I should come visit sometime. Talk about clueless. And greedy. Ugh. I'm glad grandma saw him for the monster he is before she died. Not that I'm glad she saw that in her son, but that she could finally believe that her daughter (my aunt) and I were not lying about him. She didn't cut him out of the will completely but reduced his inheritance greatly. That way he could not contest as easily.

My step-dad was the first person I told about the abuse, and he put on his jacket and started heading out the door. He was going to get his shotgun and kill him. Mom and I had to beg him not to.

He will live and die in misery for all the anguish he has caused. I live in strength and joy for what I have overcome!

jak

*I only wish my brother had been strong enough to survive all of it, too.

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Accidents happen, people disappear, that sort of thing. You know, a meteor could crash through the living room ceiling and squash him like the cockroach he is. Poetic justice, non?

Hahaha - the donor came to my parents divorce hearing in a full leg cast. A year or so later, a tornado touched down in our town (I had left the state by then) and taken off the roof of just one home - guess who's?!?!

Then a few years later there was a fire in his house - while he was there.

I have my theories that the tornado was "for" me and the fire "for" my brother....

jak
maybe a little nuts, but I deserve to be

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Moral of the story: it's good to have redneck friends.

DK, redneck


Suppose you just killed someone and you know that the police are not going to be as understanding as you might like about the situation. You make a phone call to a friend and tell him what went down.

A friend asks, "How can I help?"

A true friend asks, "How can I help hide the body?"

Regards,
Prometheuss

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She is finding that many of her fears and limitations in daily life are grounded in her childhood, both directly from the abuse but also the general insecurity in a home where this type of thing can happen.

I have to repeat this. This is something my therapist has been bringing up since my very first session. The "mental tapes" people have in their heads are set growing up, and if you have "bad" tapes you keep doing things the same way even if you don't mean to, and don't really want to. The actions are based on the thoughts which are automatic.

It takes work to rewrite those tapes, but you can do it. As Hunzi says, living well is the best revenge. In fact, I'm sure that nothing irritates my dad and stepmother as much as the fact that I have never had to ask them for ANY help after moving out. Never had to ask for money, never needed to move back in, never needed their advice...and I was the one who couldn't deal with the real world, according to them.

Ha.

cathy
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{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{jak}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I'm so sorry about your brother. I wish he'd survived too. I'm sure he'd be proud of the way you have survived and thrived.


--Booa
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Booa is already one of your Favorite Fools.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{jak}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I'm so sorry about your brother. I wish he'd survived too. I'm sure he'd be proud of the way you have survived and thrived.


--Booa


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I even have it noted in our wills that if something happens to both DH & I there should be no visitation by them and why. Our appointed guardians also know.


I felt this portion of your post required repeating. Kudos for doing your homework!

Want to help me do my homework?
-- Will
-- Trust
-- Insurance review
-- Personal directive
-- POAs
-- massive decluttering, analyzing life direction, possible move to another state?


We're fortunate, that we have a legal department at the Air Force base we can use, who helped with all of this. I also got most of the best ideas from 2Gifts here at the Fool.

Our wills are pretty simple, everything to the other spouse, if something happens to both of us, the estate goes into trust for the kids' care and stays there until the youngest is 25 (it's a lot of money) then they each get half. Yeah that sucks for my older one (he's very impulsive and hasn't shown much money sense yet), but I figure that gives them time to get out of college and learn to make good decisions and not blow it on a Porsche or something (we hope!)

We appointed one person to be the kids' guardians and a second to mind the money.

Since we have a serious concern about my parents seeking custody or visitation if something happened to us (especially once they heard there was money involved), I made sure to talk to the lawyer about that, and we noted it in the will. I also told both sets of guardians (appointed and alternate). I'm thinking about asking the lawyer if I can make some sort of sworn statement about the abuse, so it's in writing if a judge ever gets involved. Probably a letter signed before a notery or deposition. I'm not sure what's best, which is why I need some guidance.

Since I'm a SAHP, my husband carries alot of insurance to provide for us. We got a term policy that expires after the kids are done with college. If anything did happen to him, I figure I'll work more hours with my in home business and between that, any SS benefits, and his pension, I may not need to dip into the insurance monies much. We need to re-evaluate his insurance needs if something happened to me. His monitary needs are a lot less now that both kids are in school and old enough to help out around the house. I still need to get a small policy though.

As far as personal directives, we each have directives, and hold a health POA for the other. There's also a designated alternate for the POA. We also have durable POAs for finances, and one that kicks in for our alternate if we're incapacitated.

We reevaluate all the will/financial stuff about every five years, so I'll be revisiting this in a year or so. One thing I know I need to take the time to do is write a letter to our executor, so they know how to best dispose of the personal property (as in which stuff to NOT sell, because the kids should keep it).

Of course the plans are completely different if all four of us meet with some tragedy. Then there will be some very happy charities.

I'm still working on the decluttering myself. I get overwhelmed by it easily, so the best solution for me was to work on it in small bites. I sent ALL the clutter to the basement, organized the living spaces the way I liked, then pulled one box at a time out of the basement to be sorted. I toss the trash, donated the stuff I don't want, and put the rest in a sturdy plastic box to go into storage. I've given away about 6 truckloads of stuff so far, and there's still at least that much left! Once I decluttered the living spaces, I've discovered there's still more I'll happily let go of. I occasionally do a sweep through the house and drop stuff into the donation box. Most of my ideas and routines are based on the Flylady.net site.

I'm not sure I can help much with moves to other states. I've only moved house three times. First time when I left home, and took everything I valued with me, my furniture, books, and most of my momentos. There are some things I wish I had still though. When I moved to Germany, I put it all in storage and moved with just a suitcase of clothes. My new DH had a small furnished apartment for us. When we came back to the states, we shipped our stuff (mostly his) and a new living room set from Germany and the Air Force picked up and shipped my stuff from storage to our new home. Only other moves I've made have been across town here, 2 apartments and 2 houses. I've been in our current home for 12 years.

All I can say about life direction is know who you are. I always knew who I was and the person I wanted to be, which is why I think I survived the abuse as well as I did. I knew he could abuse my body, but I wasn't going to let him abuse my soul. I've been blessed to always have good friends who've helped me to be a better person. There have been times when I've realized I wasn't being true to the person I knew I was, and those are the times I've been depressed and dissatisfied with my life. Fortunately, when that happened, I picked up the phone and called a friend who has never seen me as anything other than the person I wanted to be. It helps me be a better person. I hope you have people like that in your life.

Always ;-)
Hunzi




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Okay, so I never expected to post here but . . .

*>*>*> As far as personal directives, we each have directives, and hold a health POA for the other. There's also a designated alternate for the POA <*<*<*

Hunzi (and any one else who has a health care POA or whatever else these things are called), I don't know all the particulars, but you might want to look into making sure this is still valid.

HIPAA is the acronym for the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996. The act was revised fairly recently to tighten up privacy issues. That may mean specific language has to be included for an "Authorized Agent" or "Personal Representative" or some very particular phrasing. Without the proper authorization, information and decisions may not be available or made the way (generic) you might want or think. I don't know if this is a state-wide issue or a national one, but please, look into this.

~~ Alison
posted and emailed
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Hunzi: "We're fortunate, that we have a legal department at the Air Force base we can use, who helped with all of this. I also got most of the best ideas from 2Gifts here at the Fool.

Our wills are pretty simple, everything to the other spouse, if something happens to both of us, the estate goes into trust for the kids' care and stays there until the youngest is 25 (it's a lot of money) then they each get half. Yeah that sucks for my older one (he's very impulsive and hasn't shown much money sense yet), but I figure that gives them time to get out of college and learn to make good decisions and not blow it on a Porsche or something (we hope!)"


Congratulations on being relatively well organized.

You do not mention (and I really do not want to know) how much money is alot, but if it is big enough going all to the surviving spouse, instead of using a bypass trust (a/k/a A-B Trust), can substantally increase aggregate estate tax due and reduce wealth passed to the next generation.

I prefer 30 or 35 more than 25 because there can still be alot of wild oats in the 20's.

Regards, JAFO
(posted before reading entire thread, so lease excuse any repetition)


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I have my theories that the tornado was "for" me and the fire "for" my brother....
jak
maybe a little nuts, but I deserve to be



Who says you are nuts? I am of the mind that, once in a great while, justice happens. Karma is Karma, Ne?
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Dodge:

Hey retired, what is it with you?

No big deal; just asking an obvious question.

Why wasn't "the same" included -- that's all!

RV
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Hunzi:

My God....

Thank you for sharing that, but my heart ached for you as I read it! As the father of two (grown) daughters and a son, I guess I'm naive, because, until a few years ago, I never even knew that there WERE people like that out there. I simply cannot imagine any father doing such things to his precious daughter, but I guess those of us who've watched a few episodes of "Law and Order: SVU" end up learning some things...

I hope your wounds heal, and I salute you for having what it takes to talk about it now and to move onward.

RV
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<
Warning: really long! This wasn't quite what I expected to write, but the whole story just came out. Warning! This isn't pretty.
Hunzi
>

Hunzi,
I just stumbled on your account of abuse. I don't recall when I was so moved. So apalled at your Father and so, so impressed by your strength. Like someone said earlier, I am so proud to be your 'friend'.
I wish your account is published and made mandatory reading for parents at all birth centers.
-Vf
Doting Dad of 7 yr. old girl

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