No. of Recommendations: 97
One of the prevalent themes I see from various posters is the idea that interest and penalties are unfair. I'd like to address that theme.

When you buy an ice cream cone, you give the cashier money (let's say, $1.50) and they give you an ice cream cone.

The $1.50 that you paid is not what it cost the ice cream store to make the cone. Let's say it cost them $.50 to make the cone, including ingredients, salaries, store rent and other operating costs all factored in incrementally. The difference between the $1.50 and the $.50 covers both their expenses and their profit margin.

Folks, that what interest is. You are buying money at a premium when you borrow it. The interest is what pays for the credit card companies rent, employees salaries, operating costs, accounting systems, etc. Not only is interest fair, but it is an inherent part of the money lending business. Since the dawn of time.

But the penalties are unfair, some say.

Well, not really. When you pay the credit card company late, they still have to pay their rent, operating expenses and employees. In many cases they have to borrow money in order to do this. It is absolutely fair that they pass this cost onto you. With respect to money, timing is everything. Late payments have a hard cost associated with them and the credit card companies have every right to charge the consumer for them. Just like if you break something in a store, you pay for it.

As much as I can sympathize with people who have made financial mistakes, I am sick to death of the constant bemoaning of interest and penalty fees. That is the natural cost of money lending businesses. Credit card companies are not evil. They are businesses. You don't walk into an ice cream store and demand free ice cream, do you? Why on earth would anyone have the expectation of free money?

And, here's the best part. If you can't afford the interest or the penalties, you have a wonderful option. Don't borrow the D***n money. That's right. Pay cash. Or don't buy the item that you can't afford.

To be clear, this is not directed at those who are paying their debts as agreed, or even trying to. I don't have a problem with people in debt, provided that the person in debt understands that they were half of the debt equation. As well, sometimes people get sick, laid off. Life happens, and I understand that.

But, if you're going to buy a bunch of stuff that you like and then turn around and blame the credit card companies for fleecing you when you can't afford to pay for that stuff, you will get no sympathy from me. Sell the stuff and live up to your obligations. Or don't, and file bankruptcy. But whatever you do, don't vilify the creditors. It's not their fault you can't pay them.

Just ask yourself - why do you think you're entitled to free money?

And for the folks who will point at me with "High horse" comments, know that I have debt. That I am diligently paying. Consumer debt. Stupid debt. But it's mine, and I'm paying it. I don't blame Bank One for my too-expensive couch interest.

-Poppy


Comments welcome.






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One of the prevalent themes I see from various posters is the idea that interest and penalties are unfair. I'd like to address that theme.


I hope the Supreme Court addresses it.

http://west.thomson.com/aboutus/newsletters/bankruptcy/bkcy070903.asp

Funny how credit card companies could make ends meet just fine back in the old days when the most they could charge was their interest rate. If someone was late, they raised your interest rate to something more in line with your credit.

Now, they add fees like 35 dollars for someone paying one day late. Then lower your credit limit to half what it was and then charge you "over-limit" fees.

Then they send your bills in the mail only 10 days before it's due. I guess to increase the chances they will hit you with such a fee.

These are predatory and unreasonable fees. They don't need them to keep their doors open as you suggest. They need them because their stockholders are upset at the declining value of their stocks and they've like a divident paid.

Funny how these fees weren't needed to keep the doors open in the 70's and 80's.
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No. of Recommendations: 50
Funny how these fees weren't needed to keep the doors open in the 70's and 80's.

Funny how the average debt per household has increased exponentially since the 70's and 80's. Funny how accounting systems that once tracked several millions of dollars are now required to track several billion. My father bought a four bedroom house in 1973 for $50,000. Should I be outraged that I can't find one for that price now? Puleeeeze.

Then they send your bills in the mail only 10 days before it's due.

You know the bill is coming. How long does it take you to write a check?

Funny how credit card companies could make ends meet just fine back in the old days when the most they could charge was their interest rate.

My favorite. When you sign up for a credit card, they present you with a document that outlines the credit terms. These fees and penalties that you find so predatory are spelled out quite clearly in that document. If you don't like those terms, again, don't borrow money from them. So simple.



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<<One of the prevalent themes I see from various posters is the idea that interest and penalties are unfair. I'd like to address that theme.


I hope the Supreme Court addresses it.

http://west.thomson.com/aboutus/newsletters/bankruptcy/bkcy070903.asp

Funny how credit card companies could make ends meet just fine back in the old days when the most they could charge was their interest rate. If someone was late, they raised your interest rate to something more in line with your credit.

Now, they add fees like 35 dollars for someone paying one day late. Then lower your credit limit to half what it was and then charge you "over-limit" fees.

>>


The fee described in the link has nothing to do with the fees to which you object in your post.


I don't much care for credit cards myself. I mostly use a check card when buying parts by phone for my business, and haven't charged anything on my credit card in months.

I also don't accept credit cards for payment in my business.


I find these highly effective strategies for avoiding credit card fees.


People who pay me rent late or fail to pay bills for services rendered in my business OUGHT to be hit with fees, though. It's a nuisance to deal with such defaults, and small interest charges don't compensate for the time spent on such things either.

When I write contracts to lend money, I often include penalties for defaulting on payments. It builds in and incentive to pay, and compensates for the time and nuisance of dealing with people who don't pay and will be calling to make payment arrangements, be involved in collection action and so on.


The way to minimize such fees is to pay on time and as agreed.



Seattle Pioneer



Seattle Pioneer
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Then they send your bills in the mail only 10 days before it's due.

You know the bill is coming. How long does it take you to write a check?


Say what? This is the 21st Century. Fer cryin' out loud, we can check our Master Card and AMEX online to see what the balance is, if any, and have our bank make the payment from our checking account to cover the full amount and sometimes more (when there are charges that haven't yet appeared).

Ya pay the balance off in full every month and none of this crap happens.


Funny how the average debt per household has increased exponentially since the 70's and 80's. Funny how accounting systems that once tracked several millions of dollars are now required to track several billion. My father bought a four bedroom house in 1973 for $50,000. Should I be outraged that I can't find one for that price now? Puleeeeze.

Would you be outraged if I told you the wife and I bought a large old 4BR house on an acre of land for $50,000 in 1998? It's our rental.

Pees


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Sometimes, penalties and interest are indeed unfair.

Example: in college my roomie, Jen, had a credit card which she paid on time each month. Being a student, and one without much help coming from her parents, she was in a corner and had to charge certain things, such as her eye exams and glasses--her vision was quite poor and often changed. On her limited income, she wound up carrying a balance.

One month she got within, oh, $300 of her credit limit, which was something like $1400. So her card company, without ANY notice, dropped her credit limit so that she was now instantly overlimit. Slapped her with an overlimit fee, then raised her interest rate to a penalty rate because she had "gone overlimit."

So, how is that fair? How is that just covering the cost of doing business? They were already making perfectly good interest income off that account.

I understand what you are saying, and generally agree with you that it's each person's responsibility. But I don't agree that WHATEVER the companies choose to charge, is automatically "fair."


just my take,

Mare
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mrbol,

You wrote, I hope the Supreme Court addresses it.

http://west.thomson.com/aboutus/newsletters/bankruptcy/bkcy070903.asp


Based on the summary, this is only addressing the issue of whether or not a credit card company (CCC) can call an over-the-limit (OTL) fee a fee and not an increase in interest rates when the OTL was incurred because the CCC intentionally, temporarily, increased your credit limit to accomidate a purchase that was beyond your previous limit.

One possible interpretation is that this is only a change in reporting and disclosure requirements. In other words, the CCC would only be required to disclose that their rates may fluctuate if you go OTL and they decide to extend you that credit. And they would be required to report that rate fluctuation as a finance charge in your statement.

Ironically, the latter is something MBNA has been doing for years. They always include every fee in their finance charge and interest rate description on the bottom of your statements. It seems to me that a company with a contract and reporting policies like MBNA's might be wholely unaffected by this ruling.

What I mean is: This summary doesn't seem to address the real issue. Were OTL fees even valid under the terms of the plaintiff's contract in the example used? Even if they weren't, isn't it possible that this ruling is narrow and leaves open the possiblity that the CCC can just change the contract slightly to comply; but still leave in OTL charges?

-----

Personally I have nothing against you trying to get these charges removed from your bill. And I have little problem with you trying to negotiate a settlement that's less than the total. But I find it difficult to hear you defend those actions based on lame excuses like, "I didn't see it"; or, "I didn't get the bill." I just think you didn't stay on top of these things like you should have -- you were a bit irresponsible -- and now is well past time for you to try to fix those mistakes, however that may eventually turn out.

Address the past first; consider the future in more depth once that's behind you.

- Joel
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Yee HA! :-)

Wish you were here this time last year.....

I'm a debt paying person,uh,Fool, too. Now, I feel like we're slaves to the payments for the next 18 mos. (Our goal to be debt free.) We're slaves 'cuz we were having too much fun...Ahhhh...sigh...No good reasons. We were just living high on the hog. Now we're paying.


Thanks for the uh, gentle reminder..

:-)

Payitoff
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One month she got within, oh, $300 of her credit limit, which was something like $1400. So her card company, without ANY notice, dropped her credit limit so that she was now instantly overlimit. Slapped her with an overlimit fee, then raised her interest rate to a penalty rate because she had "gone overlimit."

I suspect there is more to this story than what is here. My experience is that any time I get close to a limit the CC raises it.
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Well, rosewine,

I lived with this girl and we were very close friends, who knew all each other's business. Jen was very responsible, more so than I was, really.

So, each time the bills came (and I knew when that was, because I was almost always the one who got the mail), I saw how quickly Jen would pay her credit card bill. She was never, ever late or overlimit. She actually read her bills, knew what she was paying and made sure everything was accurate.

Then came the bill on which, suddenly, her credit limit was dropped just enough to make her overlimit. $30 fee was applied (making her even more overlimit) and her interest rate had jumped to a penalty rate because of the overlimit charges. Nothing she could do about it.

Since then I have heard, several other times, of this particular tactic. I guess Jen wasn't the only one it happened to. No, it's never happened to me, either; but it does happen.


Mare
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<<Then came the bill on which, suddenly, her credit limit was dropped just enough to make her overlimit. $30 fee was applied (making her even more overlimit) and her interest rate had jumped to a penalty rate because of the overlimit charges. Nothing she could do about it.

Since then I have heard, several other times, of this particular tactic. I guess Jen wasn't the only one it happened to. No, it's never happened to me, either; but it does happen.


Mare
>>


I've never heard of this kind of tactic before, and I remain sceptical. I'd be interested to hear if others have heard of this.

I wonder whether such a thing could properly be done under a credit card contract, or whether attacking it would have forced the charges to be eliminated as an error.


But even if its true, it's just more evidence of why debt is a form of risky behavior. While IN THEORY, you should be safe scating to the edge, in fact you run substantial risks of falling, being pushed in or having disaster strike for other reasons.


The Boy Scouts recommend that boys be "helpful, friendly, courteous and kind," among other things. While one reason for practicing virtues such as these is that it makes the world a pleasent place, another reason is intensely practical --- if you behave that way, you greatly reduce the chance of provoking other people into acts of anger and aggression.

In theory, there is nothing illegal about being unhelpful, unfriendly, discourteous and unkind to people. But if you act that way, you are much more likely to come to the attention of the cops, and more likely to wind up in trouble.


Living in debt is similar. You put parts of you life in the hands of other people, who make act unreasonable, arbitrarily or illegally.



Seattle Pioneer
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My favorite. When you sign up for a credit card, they present you with a document that outlines the credit terms. These fees and penalties that you find so predatory are spelled out quite clearly in that document. If you don't like those terms, again, don't borrow money from them. So simple.


Well, then, again. I didn't agree to those terms. I agreed to something between 3 or 5 dollars for late fees/overlimit fees.

They changed these to 20 and then 29 dollars within a two month period.


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Ya pay the balance off in full every month and none of this crap happens.


Maybe that's fine for you. But some people might actually "need" to extend the payments.

Sure, if they default, they pay the price.

However, the fact remains that some of the card companies have changed the rules AFTER the customer signed up.

No one seems to address that issue. Can't anyone point out that it's actually *wrong* to change a contract without proper legal notification? Or will you all be perfectly satifsified to villify those of us that don't cowtow to every whim of the CC companies?

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Would you be outraged if I told you the wife and I bought a large old 4BR house on an acre of land for $50,000 in 1998? It's our rental.


I fail to see the relevancy. I could pay a lot less for housing if I wanted to spend 2 hours to commute to work every day and much more in gasoline and car repair, tires, etc.

I spend what I spend for housing because it's close to my work. I am too time poor to save a few dollars and spend 2 or 3 hours a day to do it.

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Personally I have nothing against you trying to get these charges removed from your bill. And I have little problem with you trying to negotiate a settlement that's less than the total. But I find it difficult to hear you defend those actions based on lame excuses like, "I didn't see it"; or, "I didn't get the bill." I just think you didn't stay on top of these things like you should have -- you were a bit irresponsible -- and now is well past time for you to try to fix those mistakes, however that may eventually turn out.


I didn't say I wasn't at all at fault or not responsible. I said that for "some" of the charges I wasn't responsible.

I've had these things happen, and for these things only, I don't feel responsible

1) Late fees and overlimit fees were raised from 5 to 29 dollars per instance.

2) Limits were lowered to below the balance and then overlimit fees became due

3) No notice was given for either of these cases. In my recollection of law, when a party wants to change the terms of a contract, the other person has to "actively" agree to the changes. Also, to ammend a written contract, a simple "ommision of action" or a verbal agreement is NOT sufficient to change the original contract. You seem to think that the little notices they stuff in with the bill each month count for such. I do not. Futhernore, unless these notices come in the month as a "registered mail," I don't believe the courts should enforce them.

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I suspect there is more to this story than what is here. My experience is that any time I get close to a limit the CC raises it.


I know that CC companies can evaluate your credit at any time. Including your credit scores. They can seemingly, see that your credit score has lowered, and then lower your limit.

To me this also seems like a breach of contract.

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So, each time the bills came (and I knew when that was, because I was almost always the one who got the mail), I saw how quickly Jen would pay her credit card bill. She was never, ever late or overlimit. She actually read her bills, knew what she was paying and made sure everything was accurate.

Then came the bill on which, suddenly, her credit limit was dropped just enough to make her overlimit. $30 fee was applied (making her even more overlimit) and her interest rate had jumped to a penalty rate because of the overlimit charges. Nothing she could do about it.

Since then I have heard, several other times, of this particular tactic. I guess Jen wasn't the only one it happened to. No, it's never happened to me, either; but it does happen.


This has happend to me also.

But it seems as if the credit card companies can do whatever they wish because "it's in their agreement" which it is not always.

I really do not believe that in contract law, that one party can continually change the rules at will without recourse. I'm sure a lawyer can chime in here, but for me, I don't believe it's valid or legal. They are able to get away with it because everyone "lets" them.

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Well, then, again. I didn't agree to those terms. I agreed to something between 3 or 5 dollars for late fees/overlimit fees.

They changed these to 20 and then 29 dollars within a two month period.


And you will note that the paperwork that came explaining the increased fees also told you that unless you wrote in to cancel the card and not accept the new terms that you were agreeing to them.

So, since you kept the card and continued to use it, you did agree to it.
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And, here's the best part. If you can't afford the interest or the penalties, you have a wonderful option. Don't borrow the D***n money. That's right. Pay cash. Or don't buy the item that you can't afford.

This bears repeating.

Over and over and over and over.

JB
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And you will note that the paperwork that came explaining the increased fees also told you that unless you wrote in to cancel the card and not accept the new terms that you were agreeing to them.

So, since you kept the card and continued to use it, you did agree to it.


NO! I didn't keep the card AND continue to use it. I cancelled it and didn't continue to use it. They raised the fee amounts anyway.

Sorry if no one seems to believe me.

Also, I don't consider the failure to act tantamount to ammending a written contract. Most of you do. I would really love it when someone takes this one all the way to the supreme court.

In contract law, used to be, you HAD to agree to amend a contract in writing. I fail to see what precendent allows the CCC to do this.
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And, here's the best part. If you can't afford the interest or the penalties, you have a wonderful option. Don't borrow the D***n money. That's right. Pay cash. Or don't buy the item that you can't afford.

This bears repeating.

Over and over and over and ov


Broken record.
Here's the best part:

Some people get in over their head honestly. Some people buy the stuff and THEN have difficulty.

Some credit cards CHANGE the penaly and interest amounts AFTER you sign up.

Do some people actually think that blindly parroting stuff makes you smart? Reminds me of the war on drugs. "DRUGS - BAD" "ALCOHOL - GOOD"

Someone please get some brains. MOST people get in over their heads by being irresponsible. I give you that. But NOT ALL.

I am in the former category for most all of my debts. But in the latter for some.
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Some people get in over their head honestly. Some people buy the stuff and THEN have difficulty.

Doesn't matter. Ya shoulda thoughta that before you promised to pay for the stuff.

One more time, with feeling...

If you don't have the cash to pay for the "stuff," you can't afford it. Period. And borrowing the money in hopes that life will go your way 100% of the time IS irresponsible.
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Some people get in over their head honestly. Some people buy the stuff and THEN have difficulty.

Doesn't matter. Ya shoulda thoughta that before you promised to pay for the stuff.

One more time, with feeling...

If you don't have the cash to pay for the "stuff," you can't afford it. Period. And borrowing the money in hopes that life will go your way 100% of the time IS irresponsible.


Hey, I do understand. If you can't afford to pay cash, then don't buy it. Well, I suppose that's okay for me. And anyone should be able to do that.

However, consumer credit is a tool. And tools can be used wisely. Why would you buy anything on a credit card at high interest if you already had the cash sitting around?

Well - I suppose there are valid reasons, but if EVERYONE used that, there would be almost no credit card companies.

From now on, I only plan to use CC if I have to to pay for catastrophic medical bills. Period. Unless I am able to pay the balance at the end of the month.
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Ok, everybody take a deep breath (or if you are a smoker, try to take a deep breath).

In geology, my undergrad school required us to go to field camp. So imagine 5 weeks in Colorado, no possible chance at working because this class is your life for those 5 weeks. Well, I ran out of money. Not only did I completely deplete savings, but I racked up the cards for "extravagances" such as food, laundry, gas, and, yes, the occasional beer. To me the experience, the views, the fun, the degree, and even the work was worth it. When I got back home I started working again, but had no way to pay the CCs for a couple of months. Only recently is all that stuff becoming irrelevant to my credit reports.

What I'm saying is that credit cards are a tool. Even though I knowingly got into trouble, the service they provided me then was worth it. In fact, I probably wouldn't have had a bad go of it with them had I actually called them and let them know I had problems. To me, the ability to use someone else's money occasionally even with the service charge can be a life-saver.

Later, we forget why we used them and only remember all the money we owe--like it's their fault!






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From now on, I only plan to use CC if I have to to pay for catastrophic medical bills. Period. Unless I am able to pay the balance at the end of the month.

Thats cool. I use them and try to (unless I goofed) pay them off every month. Normal use is when I'm not totaly sure what the checking balance is and I haven't had time to transfer savings over to make a good cushion. (Yes, the budgeting bandwagon is hard. Maybe someday it will be easy, but I doubt it.)
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mrbol,

You've got to stop allowing a bunch of internet addicts get so deeply under your skin (including me). Take a breath. Take some time out from checking the posts. Allow a few to slide by without a response from you.

A number of us just like to see our thoughts in print - it has no bearing on you. The responses you get are often not directed at you, but at the board in general. Everyone sees what everyone else writes, and sometimes we just spout off.

For the record, I don't think there's anything wrong with what you have proposed (except for the part about "threatening" a creditor with bankruptcy to get them to reduce a debt). The way I see it, you goofed, you admit it, you've come up with a solution that is reasonable and acceptable to you. Now you want to offer the solution to your creditors to see if they will agree. If they do, then you will have entered into a new agreement, with the approval of all the parties involved. Nothing at all wrong with that. If they don't agree, you're no further behind than you were. All of this is above board and you have nothing to be ashamed about on that score.

You see, while I would not do what you are proposing, I am not in your shoes and can not realistically understand the nuances of your situation. My comfort meter is more in line with MsPoppy's - I make a commitment, I stick to it, even if it turns out to be harder than I thought when I made it. The reason I have this outlook is because it is what I would expect of someone who made a commitment to ME. While it would make me happy, I don't expect other people to live by my code of ethics. Ultimately, I can make only my own decisions, no one else's, and we each live with the choices we make, good or bad. If they're bad, then hopefully we learn from it.

In my mind, unless you tell them something that isn't true, you aren't committing fraud and are behaving ethically. For whatever reason, you haven't paid them before now but you're willing to do so now. Heck, it sounds to me like you even want to. Your reasons are your business and you don't need to justify them to us. If you choose to try to justify them, some on the board will disagree with you. Some may even disapprove. A select few will disapprove loudly and with great conviction. So what? They don't know who you are. The only power they have over you is the power you allow them to have. At the moment, from where I sit, that's quite a lot. You're giving them a lot of your time, and it sounds to me like you have better uses for that time.

You seem like a bright guy, good head on your shoulders, also possibly a new wife who believes in doing things a certain way and has shown you the error of your former ways - in which case, you certainly don't need to hear it from us.

Just as you are seeking to use your credit to your advantage, learn to use these boards to your advantage. Take what is useful to you and ignore the rest.

If you stick around long enough, you'll see how MsPoppy and others (again, myself included) view things, and maybe more importantly why they view them that way. At the moment, you don't see the benefit in repaying the full amount owed when you can accomplish what you want to accomplish by negotiating a new agreement with your creditors. That's fine. There really is no immediate, direct benefit to you.

You have lived a long time in "immediate gratification mode" and it takes time to shift that view. But in at least one area, you already have. From what I've learned about you by reading all these posts, I think that in time, you'll see the benefit of delayed gratification in other areas, too, and how it benefits all of us (including you). You just haven't gotten there yet.

As for the house you want to get, I believe that you believe it's what you need. You're not going about things in the way I would, but that doesn't make you wrong. You're looking ahead to your future needs and trying to get something that will last you a while. My father and I had this same argument years ago, when he was trying to convince me to take gradual steps, getting successively larger houses. I listened to him, sort of, and stayed where I was until we were ready to bust out the seams. We actually had to buy another house, move half our stuff into it, THEN put our old house on the market - otherwise prospective buyers may have had trouble walking through it. That's how tight things were. We lived in two houses for 6 months until the old one sold.

So listen to the advice you're getting, hear what people are saying, but make your own choice based on what you think is best. You are, after all, the one who will have to live with your decision. But when making that decision, think hard about your past mistakes and see if maybe some of your old thinking is coloring your current planning. Ask yourself if you really NEED what you think you need, or if you are using a valid reason (needing a larger house) to justify a want (a house bigger than you need or than you can currently afford). I am NOT saying that this IS what you're doing - it's really something that only you and your wife can know.

But the time you're spending justifying your actions and your motives is doing nothing more than causing a LOT of posts and giving you an excuse to dig your heels even deeper into a mindset that you already know you're ready to give up.

So feel free to ignore us. Continue to educate yourself as you've been doing. Think about what the people here have said, but don't spend your time responding to each of them. We are all well aware of where you stand and the reasoning behind it... and it's fine. We don't all agree, but we don't have to. It's your life.

And I would guess that some on the board, silent though they may be, DO agree with what you've proposed. They've just learned to keep their mouths shut. <BG>

If, one day, you happen to be espousing MsPoppy's viewpoints to another newbie, I sure hope that someone draws my attention to it. It would be sort of like watching another stepson grow up. :)

SS
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I ran into an interesting situation wherein I needed to use my credit cards. I moved from an academic job to a very corporate one. It didn't occur to me that I was supposed to project a more professional image than my coworkers (later found out the reasons) and apparently dressing more professionallly would help. Since I was in danger of blowing the job as I was in my probationary period with two weeks to go, I had to buy enough corpoate clothes and shoes to get by. Quickly. I did so, and it made a huge difference (packaging is everything there, apparently) and my job is safe.

Please, no tut-tutts about not hitting the consignment stores, discount stores, etc... the limits on my time and transportation options were greater than the limits on my income. Regarding my new corporate pumps, there is a rather pricy model that supports my hobbit-like feet in relative comfort. I know from experience that these will last almost forever, and since they are basic pumps, they will never go out of style.

I paid off this investment in two months. While annoyed at having to spend extra for the finance fees, I'm grateful the credit was there. I had paid off almost all of my CC debt from my days of outright financial idiocy, but think that this shopping spree was a necessary evil. I did, at least choose the cards with the lowest rates!

Now if I could just get over the feeling that I am wearing a Halloween costume to work every day....
Yedi - whose CCs are safely back in their hidey-hole

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NO! I didn't keep the card AND continue to use it. I cancelled it and didn't continue to use it. They raised the fee amounts anyway.

Umm....if you weren't using the card, how exactly were you racking up over-the-limit fees?
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Now, they add fees like 35 dollars for someone paying one day late. Then lower your credit limit to half what it was and then charge you "over-limit" fees.

Then they send your bills in the mail only 10 days before it's due. I guess to increase the chances they will hit you with such a fee.



When did a credit card company do that you to when you were paying your account and keeping it current?

I've never had a company do that to me. But then, I pay on time. Usually. If I miss a deadline, as I have once or twice, I simply call them up, let them see for themselves that I was a mere 2 days or so late, that I've never been late before, etc, and they waive the fees.

As far as incurring late payments because they mail the bill 10 days before it is due--again, never had that happen. I pay online. If I didn't have that option, I always can use a regular old paper calendar and mark down the due dates--that's what my father did before they had PCs.
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I fail to see the relevancy. I could pay a lot less for housing if I wanted to spend 2 hours to commute to work every day and much more in gasoline and car repair, tires, etc.

I spend what I spend for housing because it's close to my work. I am too time poor to save a few dollars and spend 2 or 3 hours a day to do it.


1. I drive 2 hours a day to and from work. It's worth it to spend an extra $30/week in gas for the extra $160 in pay.

2. I thought you telecommuted. Did they change the definition of that word?
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In my recollection of law, when a party wants to change the terms of a contract, the other person has to "actively" agree to the changes. Also, to ammend a written contract, a simple "ommision of action" or a verbal agreement is NOT sufficient to change the original contract. You seem to think that the little notices they stuff in with the bill each month count for such. I do not. Futhernore, unless these notices come in the month as a "registered mail," I don't believe the courts should enforce them.


Nope. It says in the initial contract that terms are subject to change.
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Well - I suppose there are valid reasons, but if EVERYONE used that, there would be almost no credit card companies.

For a long, long time, there were no credit card companies. The first card came out in, what? The 60's-70's? Credit cards are relatively new to the American economy. I think we would survive (as a nation) without them...
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Umm....if you weren't using the card, how exactly were you racking up over-the-limit fees?


By not paying?
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Would you be outraged if I told you the wife and I bought a large old 4BR house on an acre of land for $50,000 in 1998? It's our rental.

I'm sorry. I should have indicated sarcasm in there somewhere.
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frissy,

You wrote, 2. I thought you telecommuted. Did they change the definition of that word?

He also said he has two jobs.

Actually, I believe he may have also mentioned that for his second job that he operates a business from his home. I think I know why he refers to himself as "telecommuting" to the second job; but I also don't think I should speculate about it here.

- Joel
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NO! I didn't keep the card AND continue to use it. I cancelled it and didn't continue to use it. They raised the fee amounts anyway.

Umm....if you weren't using the card, how exactly were you racking up over-the-limit fees?


It's very simple.

Because I had a balance on the card that was under the limit. They then lowered my credit limit to half the balance. They did this without stating a reason. They just simply put a lower limit on the card. I either paid them immediately enough to get the balance under the credit limit or I got dinged by overlimit fees every month.
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I've never had a company do that to me. But then, I pay on time. Usually. If I miss a deadline, as I have once or twice, I simply call them up, let them see for themselves that I was a mere 2 days or so late, that I've never been late before, etc, and they waive the fees


I started out by calling them and asking them to waive the fees. And they will once. But they made it a point to tell me in no uncertain terms that they are only removing this fee as a one-time courtesy and that they will not remove it any more, even if I am having difficulties.

One card even went so far as to point out in their "agreement" that they have to have the payment in and posted before 10am on the date it's due. This is even if the mail arrives at 3pm. So basically, the due date is really before that date.
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1. I drive 2 hours a day to and from work. It's worth it to spend an extra $30/week in gas for the extra $160 in pay.


It's not worth it to me. I need to get home at a resonable time in order to do my responsibilites at home. Things like maintanining the cars, emtying trash, being with my kids, etc. This has increased since my wife is now pregnant with a high risk pregnancy.


2. I thought you telecommuted. Did they change the definition of that word?


I work during the day at a location of my employer about 3 miles away from my home. After that, I come home and work for about 3 or 4 hours a night on my other job. That job is the one I work at home for. I might also add that this second job is varied. Sometimes it's a contract job for a 3rd party. Sometimes I am doing some work for a company that I own and is incorporated. So far this company is break-even, but has the probably potential to produce far more income for me than my current employer. Of course, it also has the potential to go belly up; but not likely since I do have a back-log of people that want me to do contracting work for them.
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It's not worth it to me. I need to get home at a resonable time in order to do my responsibilites at home. Things like maintanining the cars, emtying trash, being with my kids, etc. This has increased since my wife is now pregnant with a high risk pregnancy.

What's a reasonable hour? Can you get your hours changed? I work from 7-3:30, so I leave my house at 6 am and get home by 4:15, well before most 9-5er's are even making Happy Hour plans.
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One card even went so far as to point out in their "agreement" that they have to have the payment in and posted before 10am on the date it's due. This is even if the mail arrives at 3pm. So basically, the due date is really before that date.

They all do that. The only way "around it" is to do an over the phone payment. Those usually cost $5-15 to do. Next best thing is to just mail the check for the minimum in immediately.

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One card even went so far as to point out in their "agreement" that they have to have the payment in and posted before 10am on the date it's due. This is even if the mail arrives at 3pm. So basically, the due date is really before that date.


Oh, one other thing--their mail goes to PO boxes. Around here, all daily mail gets into the PO boxes by 9 am.
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In my recollection of law, when a party wants to change the terms of a contract, the other person has to "actively" agree to the changes. Also, to ammend a written contract, a simple "ommision of action" or a verbal agreement is NOT sufficient to change the original contract. You seem to think that the little notices they stuff in with the bill each month count for such. I do not. Futhernore, unless these notices come in the month as a "registered mail," I don't believe the courts should enforce them.


Nope. It says in the initial contract that terms are subject to change.


That doesn't mean they can be changed in any way with no proper notificaiton.

read this:

AGREEMENT
This is an agreement between you herinafter called READER and me herinafter called WRITER.
READER agrees that by reading this message past this point, READER will abide by the terms and conditions of this agreement.

Further, READER agrees that by reading past this line, READER will agree to any terms and conditions WRITER makes at any time in the future.

If READER does not wish to agree to these terms READER should not read any further into this message.

READER agrees to hold WRITER harmless from and and all claims in regard to this agreement.

READER agrees to pay WRITER a sum equal to the value of READERS house.
READER agrees to pay WRITER a monthly sum of 29 dollars if WRITER failes to pay the above amount.
READER agrees to pay WRITER a sum of 29 dollars should any sum not be remitted to WRITER within 10 business days from the date READER reads this agreement.
READER agrees that should READER not agree to any and all terms of the agreement, READER shall submit in writing to WRITER a notice that READER does not agree to the terms of this agreement.
READER cannot make this notice unless all monies due to WRITER have been paid and account is current.
if READER becomes delinquent in payments to WRITER, READER agrees to provide WRITER with property equal to or greater value than one thousand dollars and cause said property to be delivers to WRITER without lien or encumbrance no later than the 20th business day from the date READER accepts this agreement.
If READER does not notify WRITER of their disagreement with this agreement within 5 business days from the date of the reading of this agreement, WRITER can assume that READER has accepted this agreement.

----------

Okay, now that you've read to here, how many people think I am rightfully owed anything?

Well - no - of course, there has to be consideration paid before a contract is considered valid.

What is the enhanced consideration that is paid before the original contract can be considered changed in a CC agreement?

CC companies pyramid late charges and they all snowball. According to this http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/complcred.htm
they are not supposed to be able to do that.

How many people here think that a CC company can garnish your wages if you don't pay, or repossess household articles. (the articles were purchased with the CC can be repossed though)

Also, many cards are now issued without obtaining a signature at all. If you open an account over the Internet you don't even sign at all.

I guess what I'm saying is that a credit card company can and does put anything at all in it's agreement even if they know it's counter to the law. And then they expect it to be abided by, even if it's illegal, and they get away with it as long as no one sues. No one sues. It's not worth it. So they get away with putting anything into an agreement - even when it's not legal.

It's not legal to ammend written agreements. They get away with it because everyone just goes along.

How many people think that "click-to-accept" agreement we all just glance at and press the "Accept" button when you install computer programs on your computer is valid?

Well - if you live in some parts of the country, it's not valid. Does this stop the companies from using these "click" agreements? Nope. Does this stop many people from thining they are valid? Nope.

Here is the reason why some of these agreements are not valid in some parts of the country: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=5628

For those that the link doesn't work, look up Adobe vs. Softman in Google.

My point is that big companies get away with doing whatever they like in the contracts even when it's not legal because we "let them."
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What's a reasonable hour? Can you get your hours changed? I work from 7-3:30, so I leave my house at 6 am and get home by 4:15, well before most 9-5er's are even making Happy Hour plans.


My employer will let me work "flexible hours" however, I doubt that simply moving my work hours will help anything.

I usually get up at 8:30 to 9am and get to work at 9:30. Then I work until about 6 or 6:30, depending on whether or not I take a lunch break.

I get home around 7pm to eat with the family. If my wife has had a hard day because she is pregnant and also taking care of 3 kids, then I might need to make dinner or go buy it. I take out the garbage, maintain the lawn and two cars, maybe vaccum, pay the bills, read the mail, give the kids baths/showers, etc. Then we read to them and put them in bed usually by 9 or 9:30pm

I might get to spend about 1/2 hour with my wife and then I go into the room to work at about 9:30 or 10pm. I work on the computer until between 12 midnight to 1am.

Then I sleep from about 1pm to 8 or 9am. My wife usually makes breakfast but doesn't always, so sometimes I need to get the kids breakfast.

Weekends are usually spent one day with the family and another day working on the second job or doing lawn work, etc. Rarely do I get to spend the whole weekend relaxing.
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Further, READER agrees that by reading past this line, READER will agree to any terms and conditions WRITER makes at any time in the future.

That is not what the credit card application said, and you and I and everyone else here knows that.

What you application said, was something along the lines of:

By SIGNING below, you agree to the above terms. By USING THE CARD, you agree to the above terms. Terms are subject to change with notice. By continuing the use the card after terms go into effect, you are agreeing to the new terms.

Now, you state that you didn't use the card after the terms. Did you carry a balance? That's "using" the card.
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My employer will let me work "flexible hours" however, I doubt that simply moving my work hours will help anything.

I usually get up at 8:30 to 9am and get to work at 9:30. Then I work until about 6 or 6:30, depending on whether or not I take a lunch break.


It will help a lot. Instead of getting home after she's made dinner and the kids have been home *pestering* her for hours with "When's dinner?", "What's for dinner?", "I'm bored!", "MOOOOOOOMMMM! Jimmy's looking at me!" "Am not!" "Are, too!" "You did it first!", etc you will get home within an hour of them getting there, and if it's been a really bad day for her, *YOU* can make dinner while she locks herself in the bathroom and does something relaxing, like drilling her own teeth!

If I read this right, you get home about 30 minutes after work. How much time would you be able to cut off your commute by driving without the rush hour traffic? When I was working 8-4:30, my commute was brutal. I was leaving at 6:45 and not getting back home until almost 6! That was an hour and a half at night, and over an hour in the morning, just because everyone else was on the road, too. And I don't really even travel the same way as them, but I have to cross three freeways and two MAJOR north/south arterial roads.

Can you let the teen ager get the kids breakfast? The bigger little ones can do dishes. Everyone can clean their own rooms, run the vacuum, dust, take out trash. I don't think that's too much to ask, since you let the kids live under your roof, eat your food, wear clothes that you bought, etc. See where I'm going with this? Everyone pitches in! You provide money to buy stuff, they work to keep the house nice! Pay them a commission (allowance) to help teach them how to handle money.

Have you held a family meeting to discuss money? Not neccessarily your exact financial situation, but to explain you work for money, money is used to buy stuff, this is debt, etc.?
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By SIGNING below, you agree to the above terms. By USING THE CARD, you agree to the above terms. Terms are subject to change with notice. By continuing the use the card after terms go into effect, you are agreeing to the new terms.

Now, you state that you didn't use the card after the terms. Did you carry a balance? That's "using" the card.


My point was that usually a party to a contract is not allowed to modify it at will with unreasonable terms. I believe that 29 dollars late and 29 dollars overlimit are unreasonable. Especially when I closed the account and didn't charge ANY MORE money to it.

The terms governing the use of the money I already borrowed shouldn't be allowed to change. It violates equitable estoppel.
(http://dictionary.law.com/definition2.asp?selected=644&bold=||||)

It does this because a credit card company does not always tell you up front that if you become late, they will lower your limit and/or raise your interest rates. Some do. Some don't.

Simply stating that an agreement can be changed at will doesn't always make the terms okay. The terms also have to hold up to being equitable and fair. 29 dollars for being late 1 day just might not hold up. I suppose we'll see.

But if equity were upheld, then it also means that I could write a letter to the credit card agency and ammend their contract, and by their silence, I could presume it have been accepted by them.

http://credit.about.com/library/bl/blLtr_Estop.htm
http://www.law.cornell.edu/lexicon/promissory_estoppel.htm

Personally, I think there will be further regulation on this issue soon. Particularly in the 6th circuit where lenders must now report overlimit and late fees as finance charges and thus report them on the disclosure statement as a periodic interest rate. This will also set them under some states that have maximum interest rates that may be set.

http://www.complianceheadquarters.com/Lending/Lending_Articles/overlimit_fees_and_finance_charges.html

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... Instead of getting home after she's made dinner and the kids have been home *pestering* her for hours with "When's dinner?", "What's for dinner?", "I'm bored!", "MOOOOOOOMMMM! Jimmy's looking at me!" "Am not!" "Are, too!" "You did it first!", etc you will get home within an hour of them getting there,


Right now, no one is in school, so they are there all day. After school starts, I take them to school, my wife picks them up.

I don't see any advantage to getting there earlier. The total time won't be shaved. My commute is not going to be affected by traffic as my home is exactly 2.4 miles from where I work. It takes a maximum of 10 minutes to commute each way. If it takes longer, it's because I have to stop by the bank or go to the store to get something.


and if it's been a really bad day for her, *YOU* can make dinner while she locks herself in the bathroom and does something relaxing, like drilling her own teeth!


That's what I do now. She doesn't make dinner until I get home. We tend to eat out a lot since she has them there all day screaming, etc.

The teenager is going to be at school at 8am. So she's earlier than anyone else. But of course, she will be expected to help.

We've tried different times, etc. And it just always seems to work this way the best. At my employer. I've found that by getting work work early, it does not allow me to leave any earlier. People around here leave work around 6 or 6:30 and if they are still here, I will juyst get calls on my cell phone asking me to return or do something.
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Weekends are usually spent one day with the family and another day working on the second job or doing lawn work, etc. Rarely do I get to spend the whole weekend relaxing.

Wow. So, you're saying you're just a typical guy? </sarcasm>

mrbol, my BS meter tilts heavily into the red while reading most of your long saga.

You've said you need a separate room for your second job; i.e., it must be dedicated, can't be multi-function. Because, you need a way to close it off from the noise of the kids, which makes sense. Yet, you say you typically begin 2nd-jobbing at 9:30 or 10pm, after the kids have been put to bed. Seems a disconnect. Can't this just be a corner of the dining room or living room?

You've say you need a separate room for your wife's painting and sculpture, which she sells. I presume she's not doing that now, if she can't make dinner or breakfast? When she does begin again, what kind of income will her work bring? Has she ever sold it in significant amounts? To be hard-headed about it, I'd say you should consider whether her art can pay for what the dedicated space is worth, as a percentage of the mortgage. If not, then it's a hobby, not a job, and it may be that you decide that you two want to fund her hobby, but I wouldn't tell anyone that you need the room for her job.

You've said that by the time you might buy a 5-bedroom house, your 17-year old will have moved out (and you'll be faced with college payments). So, I count four kids and you two adults. Between the master bedroom, the home office, the art room, the adults will occupy 3 of the bedrooms, and the kids will each double up. I wonder how that looks and feels to them?

You said you live 3 miles from work. Why are you leaving at "6 or 6:30", and getting home "around 7pm"? I didn't get the impression that you lived in an area like L.A. with constant freeway gridlock. Maybe you're just exaggerating the worst-case as the typical case?

For dinner, why are your choices making a meal on the spot or buying one? Make them up ahead on the weekend and freeze them. Or buy a crockpot for $10 at Salvation Army, and put it on a $5 timer if your wife can't plug it in at the appropriate time. The more money you can save cutting costs here, the faster you can pay off your creditors. You need to be buying cabbages, beans and rice, and maybe whole chicken on sale. Doesn't sound like you are?

Take out the garbage? What, is your 17 year old suffering from broken legs? Why can't she run meals through the crock pot. What's she doing to help?

Someone suggested building cheap-*ss but sturdy bunk beds as a solution to the "not enough space for beds in bedrooms" problem. You blew that off, but I didn't understand your objection. Heck, even if you do decide to buy, what if it takes you awhile to buy? What if it's 18 months rather than 6-12? You'll be living with another human in an overcrowded house; why not take steps now to make room for the baby? Maybe the place will seem do-able if you just compact yourselves further.

Of course you don't want the "bare minimum" house. No one does. But frankly, with your professed record, I'd think the best thing for you would be to buy the bare minimum house, snowball the payments, and hope to god that you'll be able to afford to retire in it someday.

Did you sell the big-screen plasma TV and all such expensive junk, BTW? Just wondering, since you bought it on credit and don't seem to feel that you should be held accountable to pay the CC bills fully. (Yes, yes, I read your philosophy on whether you've been treated justly by the CC industry and the IRS.) Are you still enjoying the stuff? Could you sell to help repay part of the IRS bill quicker?

It's interesting to me that one of the things that attracts you to home ownership is that it's harder to get evicted as an owner than a renter.

It's interesting to me that you consider yourself in relatively good financial shape and LBYM.

That you "can't believe in" paying the fees and fines imposed on your delinquent debt.

That you "do not feel you owe taxes by an IRS gone crazy".

Why is nothing your fault, BTW? Or more accurately, why is the responsibility for your actions not yours? All of the things I rant about above? No single one of them seems a problem. It's the sum stream of them. It's the whiff of "rules don't apply to me".

"Not my fault! Not my fault! I deserve more!" --FY
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We've tried different times, etc. And it just always seems to work this way the best. At my employer. I've found that by getting work work early, it does not allow me to leave any earlier. People around here leave work around 6 or 6:30 and if they are still here, I will juyst get calls on my cell phone asking me to return or do something.

That's not flexible hours.
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Ya pay the balance off in full every month and none of this crap happens.


Maybe that's fine for you. But some people might actually "need" to extend the payments.


Why would someone actually "need" to extend the payments? Perhaps it might be justified if he/she has no medical insurance and has to pay for a medical emergency or gets laid off from a job only a few months after being hired and hasn't had time to build at least a 6 month emergency fund.

I'm sorry, but I can think of very few instances where someone would actually "need" to use a credit card to the point of "needing" to carry a balance.

If we can't afford to pay cash for it, we don't buy it (except for real estate investment purposes).

No one seems to address that issue. Can't anyone point out that it's actually *wrong* to change a contract without proper legal notification? Or will you all be perfectly satifsified to villify those of us that don't cowtow to every whim of the CC companies?

Did you ever actually read one of those things? Like the fine print where it says terms may be altered without notice? If it's in there and you signed up for it, you're stuck with it.

Pees


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Would you be outraged if I told you the wife and I bought a large old 4BR house on an acre of land for $50,000 in 1998? It's our rental.


I fail to see the relevancy. I could pay a lot less for housing if I wanted to spend 2 hours to commute to work every day and much more in gasoline and car repair, tires, etc.

I spend what I spend for housing because it's close to my work. I am too time poor to save a few dollars and spend 2 or 3 hours a day to do it.


If you'd read the last sentence, you'd have realized we bought the place as a rental property, not to live in.

Pees
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Back on the subject of the credit card company .... If a cc company does something you think is questionable or illegal you can always write them a letter and send a copy of it to your state attorney generals office, division of consumer fraud. State attorney generals office will investigate it and send you a letter about the outcome.

This takes a while though maybe 3 months or more, it depends on how fast they investigate the complaint, Also if letters are going back and forth between consumer and attorney generals office time increases.
If another person had almost the same problem with the credit card company and reported it to attorney generals office I think the whole process would be speeded up.

I did have a cc company raise my rate from 14.99 to 24.99 because I was late one month. I paid it for 2 months and called them and asked them to lower rate. They would not for another 4 to 6 months so I did a balance transfer to another card I already had.

I agree credit card companies did not used to charge late fees or over the limit fees that were so high. I see now they are going to tier them according to the card balance 0 to 2550, 2501 to 5000, 5001 to 10,000 etc. They did not used to jack your rate up if you were late one day and had paid on time for over 24 months either. In my opinion, this is mostly pure greed not just trying to cover your expenses.


I think the state usuary laws that regulate interest rates should be changed. I don't think people with bad credit should be paying over 21%
unless they have declared bankruptcy in the past 5 years.
A lot of people assume these people are buying new furniture, DVD players etc etc. Yes there are some people like that but the vast majority are having problems due to things like divorce, job layoff, illness, the fact they quit 2nd job etc. Not everyone can live below their income level and save money for all debts for 9 months as a cushion.

In the 1980ies I once heard a woman about 22 or so who had been in a car accident, say her attorney was telling her to buy the bedroom furniture she wanted, probably under $5000 and not to worry she could not afford it. The next step was declaring bankruptcy. If I had heard the name of the attorney I would have reported him to the state bar and other groups for his unethical advice. This was probably befor the laws were changed.

Maybe I am not a realist but, I like to believe most people are not like that. Most people want to pay for what they buy.

Mctripat
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Wow. So, you're saying you're just a typical guy? </sarcasm>

I don't watch sports, so I have to do something with my time :)


You've said you need a separate room for your second job; i.e., it must be dedicated, can't be multi-function. Because, you need a way to close it off from the noise of the kids, which makes sense. Yet, you say you typically begin 2nd-jobbing at 9:30 or 10pm, after the kids have been put to bed. Seems a disconnect. Can't this just be a corner of the dining room or living room?

If I work on weekends it needs to be closed. Also, I need to leave papers, books, etc. in place with no chance of it being bothered. We have that now. It works. Sometimes, I work in there while eating dinner and the kids are still awake.


You've say you need a separate room for your wife's painting and sculpture, which she sells. I presume she's not doing that now, if she can't make dinner or breakfast?


No. She doesn't do it now. She would like to. It's part of what she wants to do once all the kids are in school.

Yes. It will be a "hobby" for a while. Almost all businesses operate in the red for a while before they become profitable. It's something we've planned for.


When she does begin again, what kind of income will her work bring? Has she ever sold it in significant amounts?

Yes. she has.


You've said that by the time you might buy a 5-bedroom house, your 17-year old will have moved out (and you'll be faced with college payments).


No. I have not promised her college payments. Her mom (my ex-wife has)


So, I count four kids and you two adults. Between the master bedroom, the home office, the art room, the adults will occupy 3 of the bedrooms, and the kids will each double up. I wonder how that looks and feels to them?


It will feel just fine to them if the rooms help bring in income to support them. If it doesn't feel fine to them, that's there problem. My obligation to my children is not to make them "feel" good. It's to prepare them for life. Life is not always "fair" so it it appears to them that we have hobbies in which we have relaxation, or rooms that also support and augment the income, rather than to give them their own room, then that's too bad.


You said you live 3 miles from work. Why are you leaving at "6 or 6:30", and getting home "around 7pm"? I didn't get the impression that you lived in an area like L.A. with constant freeway gridlock. Maybe you're just exaggerating the worst-case as the typical case?


Sometimes I need to stop for groceries or go by the bank. I simply don't leave work at the same time every day. The nature of my work disctates that I cannot simply stop at any time I want.


For dinner, why are your choices making a meal on the spot or buying one? Make them up ahead on the weekend and freeze them.

Our freezer isn't that big, and our weekends are not that time-free to allow for this.


Or buy a crockpot for $10 at Salvation Army, and put it on a $5 timer if your wife can't plug it in at the appropriate time. The more money you can save cutting costs here, the faster you can pay off your creditors. You need to be buying cabbages, beans and rice, and maybe whole chicken on sale. Doesn't sound like you are?

I disagree. My debt load isn't that bad. We need to be eating well balanced meals to preserve our health. We just ate a chicken on sale that my wife got at Sams yesterday. When we eat out, it's CHEAP, like CiCis pizza or Paunchos. We eat steaks about once a month now. Used to be every other day almost.


Take out the garbage? What, is your 17 year old suffering from broken legs? Why can't she run meals through the crock pot. What's she doing to help?

She will be doing her share. Her main goal right now is to get through high school to graduate with her class. Right now, she'll have to take summer school, extra classes and work a job to do that. If she pays her own car, gas, insurance, tires, and job expenses, plus take care of the few responsibilities around the house and help out with her brothers/sister, then she's pulling her load. My first goal for her is to get graduated from high school this coming year.


Someone suggested building cheap-*ss but sturdy bunk beds as a solution to the "not enough space for beds in bedrooms" problem. You blew that off, but I didn't understand your objection.

Because the beds we have now serve us just fine. Why should I make a bunk bed? That was suggested because the poster thought I didn't have enough room now. We do. But about 6 months after the new baby comes, we won't. The baby will stay with us in our room until it's 6 months old. Then I'll get another house.


Heck, even if you do decide to buy, what if it takes you awhile to buy? What if it's 18 months rather than 6-12? You'll be living with another human in an overcrowded house;

Well - I've pretty much decided that it probably will take 18 months rather than 6 to 12. But that's only if my second business doesn't generate any more revenue than it is now. That's possible, but not likely.

At any rate, we'll manage in the house we have now until we can buy a new house.


why not take steps now to make room for the baby? Maybe the place will seem do-able if you just compact yourselves further.


I don't need to make bunk beds until about 12 months from now. Why spend money and time on that now when my time can be better spent in my business?

I am much more "time poor" than I am "money poor"


Of course you don't want the "bare minimum" house. No one does. But frankly, with your professed record, I'd think the best thing for you would be to buy the bare minimum house, snowball the payments, and hope to god that you'll be able to afford to retire in it someday.


Why snowball the payments? You mean the credit card payments? I won't have them after I buy the house. If you mean the house payments, sure. I might.


Did you sell the big-screen plasma TV and all such expensive junk, BTW?


No. I kept one TV. That would be the big-screen. What other expensive junk would you be referring to? The medical bills I paid for my mom with the credit cards? The car maintenance and gasoline? The vacations? The refrigerator? The computer I use to make income with? The software I bought for the business? The incorporation fees? etc.? I guess you are assuming again?


Just wondering, since you bought it on credit and don't seem to feel that you should be held accountable to pay the CC bills fully. (Yes, yes, I read your philosophy on whether you've been treated justly by the CC industry and the IRS.) Are you still enjoying the stuff? Could you sell to help repay part of the IRS bill quicker?

I could sell the TV - for less than 1/8 of what I paid for it. So you think my family shouldn't have any TV? I'm willing to pay the 18 percent interest for the 200 dollars I might get for the TV.


It's interesting to me that one of the things that attracts you to home ownership is that it's harder to get evicted as an owner than a renter.


THat's not what attracts me to home ownership. But I simply made a point to a poster who thinks it's an advantage to rent because if you don't pay your mortgare payments, you might get homeless. I was simply pointing out that renting is worse.

So please tell me why you think I initiated that conversation and why you think it's a reason I want to buy a home? I didn't say that.


It's interesting to me that you consider yourself in relatively good financial shape and LBYM.


Isn't living within my means considered that I am spending less than I earn, while taking all the extra that I don't spend and paying off debt with it? If so, then I'm not living within my means, but rather I am "spending less than I earn, while taking all the extra that I don't spend and paying off debt"

You are simply opposed to the fact that I don't live like a pauper while I'm doing the repayment.


That you "can't believe in" paying the fees and fines imposed on your delinquent debt.


Not when they are predatory and obscenly inflated no.


That you "do not feel you owe taxes by an IRS gone crazy".

I owe the original amount. Not 500 percent penalties when I was clearly not intending to defraud. Those penalties are supposed to be reserved for people who intended to defraud. I didn't intend to defraud.


Why is nothing your fault, BTW? Or more accurately, why is the responsibility for your actions not yours?

I take respobsibility for the things I did. Not the things that are unfarily meted out. If the IRS is not supposed to mete out those penalties for people who are not intending to defraud, but did anyway, how is that my fault?

Let me ask you this:

Let's say you are driving down the street and you notice you are speeding. You back down your speed to the legal limit. About 1/2 mile down the road you notice a cop. He does nothing. He might have seen that you were speeding or he might not have.

The next day, he sees you and stops you. He says he thinks you were speeding the day before and so he gives you a ticket.

You got to court and tell the judge that you feel the cop should have given you the ticket the day before, but instead, he didn't and ticketed you the day after.

Also, let's say the law says a police officer cannot ticket you more than 6 hours after the offence by law.

You bring that up to the judge. The judge says too bad. And fines you anway, even though the time limit had expired. Furthermore, the judge fines you an additional penalty of 5 times the amount of the fine just for food measure.

You going to pay it all? Well - I suppose you would. Sigh.

Are you responsible for the fine? The police didn't stop you in time.

Look, I've paid the original IRS debt and then some. But 500 percent is excessive. Especially when the IRS violates their own rules.


All of the things I rant about above? No single one of them seems a problem. It's the sum stream of them. It's the whiff of "rules don't apply to me".


Yea right. I understand. I do believe I am responsible for the things I cause. And I'm paying them. But I'm going to try to negotiate to get the fees removed.

I said the IRS has gone crazy because they violate their own rules. Sorry if you take that as "I am not responsible" - Other people would agree that violating the law is the IRS at fault. Sorry you do not see it that way.


"Not my fault! Not my fault! I deserve more!" --FY


Please. If the IRS violates a law, and porks me for more than the taxes and interest, is it my fault? I owe the original taxes, and I didn't dispute that. But do I really owe the illegal penalties that were levied?

The IRS does it all the time. If not, why did congress feel the need to investigate them? Seems you are the one living in denial.
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That's not flexible hours.

Their posted policy is that I can come in late as long as I leave late, etc. and put in at least 40 hrs a week.

However, in reality, if I am there and they are needing to get something done, they will pester me to do it that day.

So... It's pseudo-flexible hours.
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Did you ever actually read one of those things? Like the fine print where it says terms may be altered without notice? If it's in there and you signed up for it, you're stuck with it.


yes. I've read them. Did you know that they can also put whatever they want in the contract, but only those portions that are "legal" can be considered in effect?
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In contract law, used to be, you HAD to agree to amend a contract in writing. I fail to see what precendent allows the CCC to do this.

I think its standard for the original credit card agreement to stipulate that the credit company reserves the right to ammend the contract at any time at their sole discretion, and that they will notify you in writing when they decide to make a change, and that if you don't like the change your only non-acceptance option is to cancel the card. I'll admit this is a bit tricky though if you decide to opt out and have a big balance at the time, because it means you either have to pay it off immediately, or transfer it elsewhere to a firm whose terms are preferable.

tt
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When you sign up for a credit card, they present you with a document that outlines the credit terms. These fees and penalties that you find so predatory are spelled out quite clearly in that document. If you don't like those terms, again, don't borrow money from them. So simple.

Well, not quite. I like credit cards, use them all the time, and don't b!tch if I screw up and they nail me with a late fee. But my beef with credit cards lately is that they send you changes to your account terms like every other week. I'm a lawyer and I can't keep up with all the changing terms. I don't know the answer to this other than stop using the cards, but it seems like they could slow the pace of all those "Important Changes to Your Account" notices. And, of course, when they make their access checks look like they could be a change to the account terms, it doesn't help matters, because it's akin to 'crying wolf' by making you open stuff thinking that it's something other than what it is.

All I ask is that they be up-front, honest, and not play any games.

Dean

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If you'd read the last sentence, you'd have realized we bought the place as a rental property, not to live in.


Oh oops. I mistook your response. I get it now.

No - not outrages. A landlord is perfectly able to charge what the market will bear even if they got the land free. Many people receive land as inheritances, pay the taxes and rent it out.

I know how much my landlord owes on my house and how much the taxes are. I know about how much his insurance rates are. I also know how much he spends on maintenance costs.

That's another reason I want to own rather than rent.
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<<It's not worth it to me. I need to get home at a resonable time in order to do my responsibilites at home. Things like maintanining the cars, emtying trash, being with my kids, etc. This has increased since my wife is now pregnant with a high risk pregnancy.>>

What's a reasonable hour? Can you get your hours changed? I work from 7-3:30, so I leave my house at 6 am and get home by 4:15, well before most 9-5er's are even making Happy Hour plans.


He has good reason to want to spend his time with his family, has made a choice based on that decision, and is aware that the choice involves paying more for housing than if he made a different choice. It's not a matter of changing his hours, it a matter of deciding where he wants to spend his time. Apparently, alone in a car in rush hour traffic is not his first choice. Seriously, do you blame him?

IMO, he's got his priorities straight on this one, and he stated quite clearly why having a short commute is important to him. You can always work to improve your credit or earn more money. Once your time is gone, it's gone, and if you miss something important there are no "do overs."

His wife has a high risk pregnancy and they have 4 kids. What's he going to do if something should happen to her or them while he's stuck in traffic so that he can pocket an extra $160 (or whatever) a month?

....... pausing a moment to let you imagine all the really crappy things that could happen that he would never forgive himself for ........

I realize that this is an often overlooked notion on these boards, but some things are just more important than money. Any amount of money.

SS
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I dunno. I guess he would do the same thing if such a thing happened while he was right there, only he'd also feel (and wrongly so) like there was "something" he could have done.
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yes. I've read them. Did you know that they can also put whatever they want in the contract, but only those portions that are "legal" can be considered in effect?

please take some responsibility already! you are an adult. you read the terms (or should have).

if you came to the board without cc or back taxes, then maybe i could sympathize. but as it is now it just seems like you can't accept the fact that you have screwed yourself over bigtime.


mr burns


if you have documentation of a REAL illegal action by a cc co or the irs then do something about it. note: raising your ol fee is not illegal. read your cc terms.
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However, consumer credit is a tool. And tools can be used wisely. Why would you buy anything on a credit card at high interest if you already had the cash sitting around?

Well - I suppose there are valid reasons, but if EVERYONE used that, there would be almost no credit card companies.


Well, I don't know about the CC companies you deal with, but the ones I'm familiar with have a 30 day grace period. In other words, if you use your CC on day 1 of the cycle, and you pay off that purchase (assuming no others for the moment) before the due date for that cyle, then you essentially have 30 day interest free loan. You don't have to deal with interest payments at all.

The CC companies make money off the merchants and the consumers. The only reason they tolerate us pay it in full types is that the merchant is coughing up a percentage to the CC company and the fact that other people more than make up for those of us who find paying CC interest anathema.

Pees



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Folks, that what interest is. You are buying money at a premium when you borrow it. The interest is what pays for the credit card companies rent, employees salaries, operating costs, accounting systems, etc. Not only is interest fair, but it is an inherent part of the money lending business. Since the dawn of time.

But the penalties are unfair, some say.

Well, not really. When you pay the credit card company late, they still have to pay their rent, operating expenses and employees. In many cases they have to borrow money in order to do this. It is absolutely fair that they pass this cost onto you. With respect to money, timing is everything. Late payments have a hard cost associated with them and the credit card companies have every right to charge the consumer for them. Just like if you break something in a store, you pay for it.


Excellent post... and let me say the following quite loudly and clearly:

LATE FEES, I LOVE 'EM!!

Am I a nut, have I lost my marbles, am I a couple tacos short of a combination plate? Well, maybe... but not when it comes to this issue.

Why do I love late fees? Well, you are absolutely correct in that the interest and fees credit card companies charge must go to pay their expenses, salaries, provide a return for their own shareholders, cover losses due to default and fraud, etc., etc., etc.

The credit card companies cover these a few different ways of course. They can charge interest, collect annual fees, and collect late fees - as just a few examples. So, what does all this have to do with why I'm in love with late fees?

Well... a dollar is a dollar - and the credit card company needs to pay certain operating expenses, and return a certain amount of money to its shareholders and remain competitive at the same time. So basically it boils down to this...

Every dollar a credit card company charges in late fees is a dollar it doesn't have to charge in interest, annual fees, or any other fees. Every dollar a cardholder pays in late fees is a dollar that those of us, like me, who always pay our bills on time don't have to pay in interest or annual fees.

Now, it's been a long time since I've carried a balance on a credit card - and the cards I have happen to have no annual fees - but even so... part of the reason I have no annual fee is because other people pay late fees. If I ever do need to carry a balance, I have a fixed rate card at sub 10% interest... part of the reason my card's interest rate is as low as it is because other people pay late fees.

I know a recent Fool Article talked about the credit card companies wanting to thank those who pay late fees...(found here)
http://www.fool.com/news/commentary/2003/commentary030715dy.htm?source=mppromo

but please let me take this opporunity to personally thank every single person who pays late fees... the article mentioned how these folks help the credit card companies, but they also help me. They help me to get absolutely free credit - interest free - annual fee free - free money!! They help me do this by paying late fees so that the credit card company doesn't have to charge me an annual fee - and on those very rare occasions in the past or future when I might have to actually carry a balance (though I do have an e-fund) these late fees, and the people who pay them, are keeping my interest rate lower than it might otherwise be.

Thank you... thank you all.

And again...

LATE FEES, I LOVE 'EM!!

Regards,

Eldrehad

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No. of Recommendations: 37
It will feel just fine to them if the rooms help bring in income to support them. If it doesn't feel fine to them, that's there problem. My obligation to my children is not to make them "feel" good. It's to prepare them for life. Life is not always "fair" so it it appears to them that we have hobbies in which we have relaxation, or rooms that also support and augment the income, rather than to give them their own room, then that's too bad.

Why am I not surprised?

Our freezer isn't that big, and our weekends are not that time-free to allow for this.

Why? You mentioned lawn-mowing. Yawn. Garbage to the curb. Yawn. Tele-commuting. It's possible to simmer stuff in a pot while you tele-commute.

If you don't have enough time to prepare meals ahead, you really don't "get" LBYM. You just don't. It isn't a matter of whether you have the cash to dine out. It's a matter of constantly squeezing pennies out of your budget, and paying off your debts, and then saving them. You seem utterly unwilling to adjust your lifestyle to do that.

Do you have room for a 5 cubic foot chest freezer? We kept ours in a corner of the garage. They're dirt-cheap; $150 on sale. They'll pay for themselves in a year, easily. Probably less. That way, you can stock up on that sale chicken, rather than only buy it when sales happen. Buy loaves of bread when they're on sale & couponed. Etc.

I could sell the TV - for less than 1/8 of what I paid for it. So you think my family shouldn't have any TV? I'm willing to pay the 18 percent interest for the 200 dollars I might get for the TV.

How did you arrive at only $200? It's only a couple of years old, isn't it? Here's a used Sony 42" for a current high bid of $1000 on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3036059526&category=11073

Here's a Philips 42" with a damaged screen with a current high bid of $351 and almost four days remaining:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3036028000&category=11073

I think you're underestimating its value.

I think that TV is a nice entertainment "want". I think an expensive large TV is a nice "want". You're not doing everything in your power to reduce your debts. You're doing everything you feel like. You could sell the plasma TV, buy a used 19" for probably $50 (or pick up one for free at the curb on trash day), and send the balance towards your CC debt.

Does that suggestion seem "unfair" to you? Like I've suggested that you should be "punished"? That's what is meant by "entitlement mentality", and people here or LBYM will jump all over you for it.

I am much more "time poor" than I am "money poor"

Ahhh. I thought you were in debt?

Isn't living within my means considered that I am spending less than I earn, while taking all the extra that I don't spend and paying off debt with it? If so, then I'm not living within my means, but rather I am "spending less than I earn, while taking all the extra that I don't spend and paying off debt"

You are simply opposed to the fact that I don't live like a pauper while I'm doing the repayment.


No, I am simply boggling that you are more willing to skip out on a large portion of that debt, than you are to adjust your lifestyle to pay it off.

Not when they are predatory and obscenly inflated no.

Rot. It's your debt. It's their money, you borrowed it. They set the terms, not you. You can declare that 9% is predatory, or $29 fees are predatory, but you have the obligation to pay them.

I owe the original amount. Not 500 percent penalties when I was clearly not intending to defraud. Those penalties are supposed to be reserved for people who intended to defraud. I didn't intend to defraud.

And they know this how? And not that it matters, but we know this how?

You going to pay it all? Well - I suppose you would. Sigh.

Let's say that your strawman is not what has happened. Your spending and subsequent debt and defaulting on it has.

I said the IRS has gone crazy because they violate their own rules. Sorry if you take that as "I am not responsible" - Other people would agree that violating the law is the IRS at fault. Sorry you do not see it that way.

I take that as you are not responsible because you're absolutely certain that you have been wronged by all parties, and that it is unfair that you pay the entirety of the debts, fees and fines that have been incurred by your behaviour. I'm sorry you don't see it that way.

Please. If the IRS violates a law, and porks me for more than the taxes and interest, is it my fault? I owe the original taxes, and I didn't dispute that. But do I really owe the illegal penalties that were levied?

The IRS does it all the time. If not, why did congress feel the need to investigate them? Seems you are the one living in denial.


Given that much of your story has arrived in dribs & drabs and slight modifications, and that you don't really want to talk about how this tax non-payment occurred, I place more faith in the IRS in this case than in you. Sorry, but that's how it looks to me. --FY
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1. I drive 2 hours a day to and from work. It's worth it to spend an extra $30/week in gas for the extra $160 in pay.

Uh, Frissy, it's costing you more than $30/week in gas for that commute. I don't know how far you drive (and I'm assuming it's an hour each way), but were I you, I'd be expensing my commute at 31 cents a mile, which covers the price of the car, maintenance, gasoline and insurance.

If you drive 40 miles each way, it's actually costing you $24.80/day or $124.00/week just in commute costs. I hope that's $160/week in extra pay. Otherwise, you're losing money. Actually, what with FICA and income tax withholding, you may be losing anyway.

Pees
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Would you be outraged if I told you the wife and I bought a large old 4BR house on an acre of land for $50,000 in 1998? It's our rental.

I'm sorry. I should have indicated sarcasm in there somewhere.


Oh, I caught the sarcasm. Whether mrbol did or not is a different question.

Pees
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My obligation to my children is not to make them "feel" good. It's to prepare them for life. Life is not always "fair"


Anyone else enjoying the irony here?


Please. If the IRS violates a law, and porks me for more than the taxes and interest, is it my fault? I owe the original taxes, and I didn't dispute that. But do I really owe the illegal penalties that were levied?

The penalties aren't illegal. They are punitive. And, when one doesn't do what one is supposed to do, one is often punished. As a deterrent.

Like jail. So, just be very, very glad that there is no longer a debtors' prison and that all you are responsible for are extra fees.

The IRS does it all the time. If not, why did congress feel the need to investigate them?

You're fun. The IRS is well within it's reasonable rights to charge fees for late payment. Their investigations dealt with people who were unfairly taxed, not people who had been assessed late fees for not paying their taxes on time.

You got to court and tell the judge that you feel the cop should have given you the ticket the day before, but instead, he didn't and ticketed you the day after.

Also, let's say the law says a police officer cannot ticket you more than 6 hours after the offence by law.


That's a lot of "ifs", my friend. None of which apply to you.


penalties for people who are not intending to defraud

You keep citing some "intent" of yours. The road to h*ll is paved with good intentions. You borrowed money and didn't pay it back. Vehicular manslaughter. The driver didn't intend to kill anyone. But someone ended up dead. An extreme example, but fitting as an illustration of irresposnibility and its consequences.

You obviously don't understand yet. That's fine. I wonder what it will take for you to get it, though.




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No - not outrages. A landlord is perfectly able to charge what the market will bear even if they got the land free. Many people receive land as inheritances, pay the taxes and rent it out.

Any landlord who is simply interested in charging all the market will bear is an idiot. You're better off charging an excellent tenant less than the market will bear because your tenant may go looking for a landlord who understands this concept. And you're better off making sure your tenant is living in a well maintained house.

As for inheriting land, I wouldn't know about that. About the only thing I ever inherited were my father's good looks.

Pees
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I realize that this is an often overlooked notion on these boards, but some things are just more important than money. Any amount of money.

SS


Well, you've got my rec for that last remark. My stepson's wife went through a high risk pregnancy and lost the baby (he died in utero and no one's been able to figure out why) 5 days before his due date.

Pees
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What's a reasonable hour? Can you get your hours changed? I work from 7-3:30, so I leave my house at 6 am and get home by 4:15, well before most 9-5er's are even making Happy Hour plans.

I think imposing time limits on work is pretty reasonable. I just think the time limits need to be accompanied by spending limits.
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Every dollar a credit card company charges in late fees is a dollar it doesn't have to charge in interest, annual fees, or any other fees. Every dollar a cardholder pays in late fees is a dollar that those of us, like me, who always pay our bills on time don't have to pay in interest or annual fees.


Yea. You are right. I hadn't thought of it that way. The deadbeats carrying the responsible ones. hehe-
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If you drive 40 miles each way, it's actually costing you $24.80/day or $124.00/week just in commute costs. I hope that's $160/week in extra pay. Otherwise, you're losing money. Actually, what with FICA and income tax withholding, you may be losing anyway.


It's 29 miles each way, if I don't stop anywhere on the way. That's $90 by the calculations you make.

I spent way more than that on gas when I was driving the truck and working next door to my apartment, as I didn't do all my errands at once, and I frequently ran back and forth on the same paths day after day.

Now I combine errands, simply because I don't have time to make separate trips (since I started working the extra 20 hour job)

So, yeah, it really is only costing me $30 week more for gasoline since I started this job, compared to my old way of doing things.
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The deadbeats carrying the responsible ones.

The exact opposite of our taxation system, I love it!

Regards,

Eldrehad
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Getting back to the original topic for a minute...

I think there are three things that make people (OK, me) mad about how things work now with most businesses, especially (but not limited to) those that involve debt or terms. These things were not true 20 years ago or even 10 years ago.

1. The arrangements are a lot more complicated than they used to be. I'm talking about all the fees, conditions, privacy policies, rebates, etc. that one has to take into account (and compare with offerings from different companies). And they are now subject to change at any time, which leads to:

2. One has to constantly monitor and manage all these things even after the agreement has been made. I pay my bills electronically like a lot of you. As a result I take only a cursory look at the paper bills when they come in, because usually I've already paid them. I swear in ALMOST EVERY BILL I get some kind of "change of terms" or "change of privacy policy" fine-print pamphlet that I am supposed to read and that I am agreeing to if I don't respond. Every frickin' month there's at least a few! From my phone company, cell phone company, insurance, credit cards, mortgage, you name it. Once, AAA issued a privacy policy change saying they were going to sell my name and information to third parties for marketing, but I could opt out. How did they tell me this? On page 6 or so of their MAGAZINE. Thank goodness I opened the stupid magazine! To opt out, I had to call a VM number, leave my name and address and membership number, then they sent me an opt-out form in the mail (no, calling them is not good enough!) which I then had to fill out WITH THE SAME INFORMATION and mail back to them. And this is just one of five or six things I have to do like this every month just to keep everything the way it was last month. And don't get me started on rebates. There's actually legislation pending to regulate those, they are so complicated and difficult and time-consuming to redeem.

3. This is the kicker. These things are intentional. Companies make this stuff complicated and difficult and time-consuming to manage so that they will get away with more. That's what really gets our collective goat. How many times have you not sent in a rebate, or sent in an incomplete one somehow, and just decided, to hell with it? Or thrown in the towel on a small amount of disputed money, like a one-time fee, because the hassle factor turned out just to be too great? How often have you hung up on Customer Service after going through the seventh circle of Voice Mail only to be on hold for 20 minutes? You think that's a mistake on someone's part? AAA knew what they were doing when they made me jump through all those ridiculous hoops. They know that in this competitive world, there are very few companies that can afford to do business without these kinds of tactics -- so they might as well take advantage too.

/rant

It's not about the fees etc. that we agree to. It's about the intent.

Protomolly.
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... Life is not always "fair" so it it appears to them that we have hobbies in which we have relaxation, or rooms that also support and augment the income, rather than to give them their own room, then that's too bad.

Why am I not surprised?


Let me guess. You are one of those "anything for my kids" people. IMO that's what wrong with society. When a parent GIVES their kids too much without teaching responsibility to them, they are doing their kids a disservice. They are the ones who grow up and pout because as adults, nothing is "given" to them any more.


...It's possible to simmer stuff in a pot while you tele-commute.

No. It's not.


If you don't have enough time to prepare meals ahead, you really don't "get" LBYM.

Living within your means doesn't mean you have to prepare your meals ahead of time. I am much more time poor than I am money poor. How did "time" come into the money picture?


You just don't. It isn't a matter of whether you have the cash to dine out. It's a matter of constantly squeezing pennies out of your budget, and paying off your debts, and then saving them. You seem utterly unwilling to adjust your lifestyle to do that.


Alright come on!!! I am paying my debts down! What part of that don't you get? That I have to live like a pauper until I pay every dime?

If my income is larger than my outlays, and I'm paying my debts now, how am I living beyond my means?


Do you have room for a 5 cubic foot chest freezer?

No. And why? Why do I need that. In fact, if I go to CiCis' pizza, it's cheaper than eating at home.

I'm doing just fine now and am paying back debt. I wasn't in the past. I've made those modifications to my budget.


How did you arrive at only $200? It's only a couple of years old, isn't it? Here's a used Sony 42" for a current high bid of $1000 on

I think you're underestimating its value.

Because that's its fair market value in the area I live. Or would you think I could ship it to anyone that buys it on Ebay?

I am paying back all that I owe now. I'm doing it fast enough. I don't need to sell one of the things that teaches our kids and allows them to be quiet once in a while, while we do things in the house.


I think that TV is a nice entertainment "want". I think an expensive large TV is a nice "want". You're not doing everything in your power to reduce your debts.


No, you are right. I could get a third job. I could sell one of my cars. I could sell my watch, and my wifes only ring. I could sell my couch. I could sell my computers, I could sell my bed and get a mattress. I could sell a lot of stuff.

What would that get me? It might get my debts paid off in 10 months rather than 12. It's worth more to me to keep it than get out of debt two months faster.


Does that suggestion seem "unfair" to you? Like I've suggested that you should be "punished"? That's what is meant by "entitlement mentality", and people here or LBYM will jump all over you for it.


I've sold much more than that. I've sold plenty so far. I've sold all I'm willing to sell. I sold my cars. I sold several computers. I've sold my stocks, I've sold quite a bit of the stuff I bought.


No, I am simply boggling that you are more willing to skip out on a large portion of that debt, than you are to adjust your lifestyle to pay it off.


I've adjusted my lifestyle quite a bit thank you.


Rot. It's your debt. It's their money, you borrowed it. They set the terms, not you. You can declare that 9% is predatory, or $29 fees are predatory, but you have the obligation to pay them.


Fine. But I'm going to negotiate to remove the fees. I am going to pay everything they will accept. I'll sleep fine at that. If they won't remove any fees, then I will pay them.


Given that much of your story has arrived in dribs & drabs and slight modifications, and that you don't really want to talk about how this tax non-payment occurred, I place more faith in the IRS in this case than in you. Sorry, but that's how it looks to me. --FY


Fine. It's your right to be sceptical. Apparently, the IRS agrees with you. So be it.
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...It's possible to simmer stuff in a pot while you tele-commute.

No. It's not.



I work full time (actually more than full-time. About 60 hours per week) and go to school part time. It is absolutely possible to cook meals in a crock pot while you're away from home. I do it twice a week.


If you want to be argumentative, so be it, but to say something isn't possible when it clearly is just tarnishes your credibility. Further.
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I think imposing time limits on work is pretty reasonable. I just think the time limits need to be accompanied by spending limits.


Not in this economy. If it were 3 years ago, I might agree with that statement. I feel it's MUCH harder to find another job now than it was then.

My only recourse to them asking me to put in overtime is to say "no." And if I said that, I might very well be looking for a new job within days.
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If you don't have enough time to prepare meals ahead, you really don't "get" LBYM. You just don't. It isn't a matter of whether you have the cash to dine out. It's a matter of constantly squeezing pennies out of your budget, and paying off your debts, and then saving them. You seem utterly unwilling to adjust your lifestyle to do that.

After my first wife died, I was a single parent for 6 years. The Crock-Pot was the 8th wonder of the world as far as I was concerned then. I could stick a frozen roast in on low just before leaving for work and dinner would be ready when I got home after picking up the kids from day care. Corned beef and cabbage tastes great out of a crock pot.

I would make enough spaghetti sauce on a weekend to make at least 3 spaghetti dinners to be eaten over the next 2 weeks. The sauce keeps quite well in the fridge. You can also freeze it in Zip-Loc bags.

You can also try this: Take some cereal (Cheerios, Rice Crispies, Rice Chex, etc.) and crush it into a powder and throw it in a paper bag. Add some salt, garlic, paprika and shake it up. Then take the chicken and shake it in the bag with the coating and seasoning. Bake for about 1 1/2 hours at 325 degrees. Makes for some fine eating, especially with baked potato and some steamed corn.

Buy yourself 6 to 8 pounds of hamburger and make your own patties. You can add garlic, salt, pepper, etc. to taste. Freeze the patties and take them out about 2 hours ahead of time to defrost when you decide to have hamburgers. A home-made hamburger beats Wendy's, McDonald's, Burger King, Sonic, etc. any time. In a pinch, you can defrost the patties in a microwave before cooking if you forget to take them out to defrost.

Steamed white fish, served with rice and mixed vegetables only takes about 1/2 hour from start to finish and you've got a nutritious meal.

Pees


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work full time (actually more than full-time. About 60 hours per week) and go to school part time. It is absolutely possible to cook meals in a crock pot while you're away from home. I do it twice a week.


And how will a crock pot get me out of debt?

Cheaper food? How is that?

Can't I just eat the cheaper food out of the refirgierator when I get home? Or cook it on the spot?

I fail to see the relevance in how I cook my food.

Somehow, someone has convinced you that cooking food while you are away from home saves you time and money. I fail to see that.
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Somehow, someone has convinced you that cooking food while you are away from home saves you time and money. I fail to see that.

Typing slowly so you'll understand.


Raw ingredients are cheaper because you aren't paying for someone else's labor. Saves money.

Cooking food while I'm away from home means I don't have to be there and I still get dinner. Saves time.

Clear?


And by the way, it works great for me. I'm able to pay my bills on time.
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Not in this economy. If it were 3 years ago, I might agree with that statement. I feel it's MUCH harder to find another job now than it was then.

My only recourse to them asking me to put in overtime is to say "no." And if I said that, I might very well be looking for a new job within days.


I was agreeing with you in that post, silly. It was about your commute. Jump on my posts if you will, but at least do it appropriately.
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Somehow, someone has convinced you that cooking food while you are away from home saves you time and money. I fail to see that.

------------------------------------

Reread the sentence again. Cooking food while you are away does indeed save you time. Depending on what you are cooking, it can save you money, too.


CaveGirl
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<<I think imposing time limits on work is pretty reasonable. I just think the time limits need to be accompanied by spending limits.>>

Not in this economy. If it were 3 years ago, I might agree with that statement. I feel it's MUCH harder to find another job now than it was then.

My only recourse to them asking me to put in overtime is to say "no." And if I said that, I might very well be looking for a new job within days.


Not positive, but I'm pretty sure she was agreeing with you. If I understood correctly, she was saying that refusing to accept a longer commute was reasonable.

'Course, I could be wrong.

SS
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Raw ingredients are cheaper because you aren't paying for someone else's labor. Saves money.

Cooking food while I'm away from home means I don't have to be there and I still get dinner. Saves time.

Clear?


I suppose I could argue that the consumtion of electricity all day by the crock pot negates a lot of the savings.

I also could argue that eating your food cold is cheaper.

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Somehow, someone has convinced you that cooking food while you are away from home saves you time and money. I fail to see that.

------------------------------------

Reread the sentence again. Cooking food while you are away does indeed save you time. Depending on what you are cooking, it can save you money, too.



It takes me 10 minutes to cook a burger in pan at home. I would probably take me longer to cut up a bunch of stuff and put it in a crock pot, set a timer, and leave it.

So again, I just don't see it. I think the burgers are faster.
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I suppose I could argue that the consumtion of electricity all day by the crock pot negates a lot of the savings.


You could. But you'd be wrong.

Look, you obviously don't want to hear anything that might actually help you with your debt load. You're too busy defending your right to not pay it all back.

So, fantastic. I'm thrilled for you and wish you the best of luck. I hope you very much enjoy the lifestyle that you can't afford. You can continue accruing late fees and penalties and I'll continue paying my bills on time, with no late fees or penalties and eating my crock pot dinners. Ultimately, your problem is not my problem.

I'm done talkin' about this.

Cheers,
Poppy
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I suppose I could argue that the consumtion of electricity all day by the crock pot negates a lot of the savings.

Running a crockpot over the hours it takes is still cheaper than the short term of using an oven.

I also could argue that eating your food cold is cheaper.

Doesn't sound very palatable now, does it?


CaveGirl

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Anyone else enjoying the irony here?

Well, yeah, that one got a bit of a "huh?" out of me, too, and I've reeaally been trying to remain impartial here. He really doesn't realize that he's using two different sets of standards, though - those that apply to him and those that apply to everyone else.

I refrained from comment because I agree with his statement that "My obligation to my children is not to make them "feel" good. It's to prepare them for life. Life is not always "fair" "

However, in light of the recent "I've done nothing wrong, they're all out to gouge me, this is illegal and they changed the rules in the middle of the game" stuff, it did cause me to do a double take.

Here's the thing, as I see it. Like I said before, he's a bright guy. Probably even a decent guy. He actually does "get" what we've been saying (although he may not have "gotten" it when he first posted). He agrees with us, in theory. But in order to feel OK about himself, he needs to justify his past actions and his plans for the future - in large part because the board ganged up on him. Hence the 110 posts in his defense.

Here's my take, based on simple logic:

IFcredit card companies, the IRS, et al have behaved unethically, then he is behaving ethically in response to their actions. All is fair.

IF the cc cos and IRS were within their rights, then he must be "wrong" to want to extricate himself from the situation in which he finds himself.

Here's where the logic gets shaky:

He knows the difference between right and wrong. He does not believe himself to be "wrong." Hence the cc cos and IRS must have behaved unethically.

Of course, following the logic, the other option would be that the cc cos and IRS were within their rights, the terms of their agreements, and the law, but this option does not lead to a conclusion that is acceptable to him at the moment.

IMO, he's not a bad guy. If we'd all just shut up and let him think for a bit, I'm betting he'd come around.

On the food thing:

Raw ingredients -> cheaper than take out (even CiCi's).

Throw food in crock -> about 3 minutes. Faster than loading up the family car and driving to CiCi's. And can easily be done while telecommuting. Skip a potty break and it's done. (Yes, I telework.)

This entire issue has gone way beyond silly at this point. The board is pecking at him, he's jabbing back, nothing is getting accomplished and it's just plain petty. Since when is it "fun" to deliberately taunt somebody?

Since he won't take my advice and stop responding to every little comment that rubs him the wrong way, and since the odds of us actually shutting up are pretty much nil, I'm gonna just ignore the rest of these threads. He may be willing to waste his own time, but he's not getting any more of mine!

Have fun guys!

SS
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My obligation to my children is not to make them "feel" good. It's to prepare them for life.

You might try teaching them some personal responsiblity, so that they don't think that the IRS and credit card companies are responsible for all of their woes.
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... You can continue accruing late fees and penalties and I'll continue paying my bills on time, with no late fees or penalties and eating my crock pot dinners. Ultimately, your problem is not my problem.


I'm just saying you don't know how much I've already cut back and sold. And you obvoiously won't listen. You also don't know what I do now to save money. And I've cut way back in the food costs department too. I simply haven't cut back to the level that you would. And so.... That's where we differ.

You are telling me that the 18 percent interest ($500 a month) of my debt is enough motivation to want to eat food cooked in a crock pot. I understand. I know that interest is a LOT.

I have about $35K of debt that I want to pay back in 12-14 months. I am paying or about to pay 2800 a month to do that. I know that for now, at least for this month, the interest alone is nearly 500 a month. That will go down quickly as I pay it.

I've cut WAY back. I've sold cars. I've modified the hell out of our lifestyle. I've been doing this for the last 2 years. I used to have over $100K in debt. Now I have 1/3 of that.

This is a rate that I am comfortable with. I will be debt free in 12 to 14 months. So please don't think I'm going to live worse than I am in order to pay it in 11 months rather than 12 or 13.

How is this a lifestyle I cannot afford? Hell, when I get this paid off, I've freed up 3000 a month.

I'll probably put 1000 more into housing (making 2200 for a house), and 1000 of it into savings. And another 500 into retirement and the other 500 for extras. I don't know.

But how is that living beyond my means. There aren't many people in debt that are this near to paying it off. Hell - many people have 5 or 6 years to go. Those are the ones that might need to eat beans.

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Doesn't sound very palatable now, does it?


I prefer raw veggies and fruits to overboiled veggies and meat in a cooker. And I don't even like veggies and fruits.

:)
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...It's possible to simmer stuff in a pot while you tele-commute.

No. It's not.


It isn't? Damn, somehow I managed to do the impossible. It sure is a good thing I wasn't told it was impossible ahead of time or I wouldn't have tried it.

Damn, that was some good chili.

Living within your means doesn't mean you have to prepare your meals ahead of time.

It's a helluva lot easier to LBYM when you prepare your own food than when you pay someone else to do it for you.

I am much more time poor than I am money poor. How did "time" come into the money picture?

Just be glad old Ben Franklin is long dead.

He believed that TIME is MONEY.

And there are plenty of ways to save time in meal preparation.

Pees
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Well, yeah, that one got a bit of a "huh?" out of me, too, and I've reeaally been trying to remain impartial here. He really doesn't realize that he's using two different sets of standards, though - those that apply to him and those that apply to everyone else.


If I weren't being responsible now and paying off my debt, then I'd say you were right.

Plus, I can and should have the right to teach my kids NOT to repeat my past mistakes.


However, in light of the recent "I've done nothing wrong, they're all out to gouge me, this is illegal and they changed the rules in the middle of the game" stuff, it did cause me to do a double take.


I never said that. I said I've made mistakes. Let me go back and quote from my original post.

"I've been really dumb about paying some old credit card debt."

Does that sound like someone who is saying "I've done nothing wrong..."

I simply said that I felt those penalties were high. I will pay the IRS and am going to try to negotiate the fees from the collection accounts"


... He actually does "get" what we've been saying (although he may not have "gotten" it when he first posted). He agrees with us, in theory. But in order to feel OK about himself, he needs to justify his past actions and his plans for the future - in large part because the board ganged up on him. Hence the 110 posts in his defense


Yes. I suppose you are right. I do get entirely too defensive.

I respond to too many posts. This can't last.
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My only recourse to them asking me to put in overtime is to say "no." And if I said that, I might very well be looking for a new job within days.

You're kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place, aren't you?

I haven't had a job in 2 years.

Don't intend to get one, either.

And no I'm not a chiseler on relief.

Pees
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Somehow, someone has convinced you that cooking food while you are away from home saves you time and money. I fail to see that.

It's not a case of being bamboozled, it's a case of experience. When I was a single dad, I did a lot of crock-pot cooking while I was at work.

It's called multi-tasking.

Pees



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I'm able to pay my bills on time.

How do you do that? I pay my bills on a computer. ;-)

Pees

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I suppose I could argue that the consumtion of electricity all day by the crock pot negates a lot of the savings.

Versus an electric oven that may be be using 3.5 KW?

I don't think so. I tried looking for Crockpot wattages, but if I remember the first one I had, it was about 175 watts on the low setting. And it cycled on and off a lot less often than the oven.

Pees


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Versus an electric oven that may be be using 3.5 KW?

I don't think so. I tried looking for Crockpot wattages, but if I remember the first one I had, it was about 175 watts on the low setting. And it cycled on and off a lot less often than the oven.


Versus one burner on a stovetop cooking somoe hamburger patties. I like those. Yummm... In Expencive Extra Virgin Olive Oil!! :) <G>

Just joking!!



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Let me guess. You are one of those "anything for my kids" people. IMO that's what wrong with society. When a parent GIVES their kids too much without teaching responsibility to them, they are doing their kids a disservice. They are the ones who grow up and pout because as adults, nothing is "given" to them any more.

I'm beginning to believe you're one of the most effective trolls this board has yet seen.

If "anything for my kids" means time and affection, then yes I am.

If it means money and "stuff", then no I am not. From the evidence I've seen, my 21-year old son is far more responsible, both fiscally and otherwise I suspect, than you have ever been.

What responsibility does it teach your children that the adults occupy 60% of the potential sleeping areas for recreation and occasional office work, while the kids are doubled up in the bedrooms?

But, I shouldn'tve said anything on that point. That kind of choice, and the subject of parenting styles, are not what these threads are about, or should be about. On this board anyway.

>>...It's possible to simmer stuff in a pot while you tele-commute.

No. It's not.


I beg to differ. I pay bills, write letters, read "homework" from the office, etc doing it.

I routinely roast "lunch chicken" during the week, after I come home from work. Usually am doing it once a week. I grind it and make chicken salad from it. DW makes a very nice "sloppy joe" recipe with it. No reason it couldn't become other stuff.

Soups? Many take only 30-45 minutes to prepare, and then it's an hour or more of slow cooking.

Make it ahead, and it's possible.

Living within your means doesn't mean you have to prepare your meals ahead of time.

Agreed. I was talking about living below your means.

I am much more time poor than I am money poor. How did "time" come into the money picture?

You said you were unable to find the time to prepare meals ahead:

Our freezer isn't that big, and our weekends are not that time-free to allow for this.

You mentioned LBYM several times throughout your early posts, which led me to believe you really wanted ideas to reduce your costs. Which I thought you might apply towards your debt.

No. And why? Why do I need that. In fact, if I go to CiCis' pizza, it's cheaper than eating at home.

If it is, then you're perhaps eating more expensively than I do. I never find that eating at home costs more than dining out.

Alright come on!!! I am paying my debts down! What part of that don't you get? That I have to live like a pauper until I pay every dime?

If my income is larger than my outlays, and I'm paying my debts now, how am I living beyond my means?


You're not proposing to pay all your debts, but to stop short when it "feels right" to you. Seems like living beyond your means to me. If not for this trick, you'd be looking at a longer time before being able to buy a house, right?

Because that's its fair market value in the area I live. Or would you think I could ship it to anyone that buys it on Ebay?

How do you know that's fair market value? There's no one who lives in the same county as you who shops eBay? Whatever. It's a moot point.

I am paying back all that I owe now. I'm doing it fast enough. I don't need to sell one of the things that teaches our kids and allows them to be quiet once in a while, while we do things in the house.

Right. Chilluns learn better on a big TV that daddy won't pay for all of. I'll bet it's taught them all kinds of lessons.

No, you are right. I could get a third job. I could sell one of my cars. I could sell my watch, and my wifes only ring. I could sell my couch. I could sell my computers, I could sell my bed and get a mattress. I could sell a lot of stuff.

What would that get me? It might get my debts paid off in 10 months rather than 12. It's worth more to me to keep it than get out of debt two months faster.


Why sell anything? Why not just negotiate to default on a large chunk of debt and be done even sooner?

*DOPE SLAP* DOH! Oh, right.

A lot of the people here reached the point of being debt-free by paying back every penny of the debt, year after year.

If that seems like chump-work to you, so be it.

I'm done. --FY
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What responsibility does it teach your children that the adults occupy 60% of the potential sleeping areas for recreation and occasional office work, while the kids are doubled up in the bedrooms?


Sharing a room teaches how to get along with others and how to share space. It teaches them things.

I have never planned on "giving" my kids their own room. They must share it with one other sibling.

I see nothing wrong with that.

I cannot see how my being irresponsible with debt for 3 years of my 25 adult years somehow makes your 21 year old more responsible than I've ever been.

I think that kids these days are given far too many "things."

I think that if I have a 5 bedroom house. And I share a room with my wife, and the 2 boys share a room, and the 2 girls share a room, and I have a room for my computer because THAT's where I make money from and my wife has a room where she intends to make money from is BAD.

Please tell me HOW that makes it bad? How ridiculous can you get? I believe YOU are the troll!


If it is, then you're perhaps eating more expensively than I do. I never find that eating at home costs more than dining out.


Let me see. Cicis' pizza 3.99 each adult. Free for my kids. My teenage daughter doesn't go eat with us yet. Total cost 8 bucks for myself, my wife, and 3 kids to eat all we want. It's a good deal. We drink water.

Seems like the part you have a problem with is that I'm going to negotiate to try to get rid of the overlimit fees and late fees. That's the big disagreement.

Well- get this "THEY" - The Creditors don't HAVE to accept what I offer. They CAN say "hey, we want it all" and guess what? then I'll pay it all.
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One of the prevalent themes I see from various posters is the idea that interest and penalties are unfair. I'd like to address that theme.

Wow, how quickly can one person take this comment as a personal attack on themselves?

FYI, I didn't want to be seen on the previous thread as siding with either camp.

Two things now though. THANK $DEITY for "Ignore Fool" buttons.

Also, I know CaveGirl says it all the time, but FoolYap, I heart you!!

Primm

PS mrbol, what happened to you saying you were going away??
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"Take out the garbage? What, is your 17 year old suffering from broken legs? Why can't she run meals through the crock pot. What's she doing to help?

She will be doing her share. Her main goal right now is to get through high school to graduate with her class. Right now, she'll have to take summer school, extra classes and work a job to do that. If she pays her own car, gas, insurance, tires, and job expenses, plus take care of the few responsibilities around the house and help out with her brothers/sister, then she's pulling her load. My first goal for her is to get graduated from high school this coming year."

Anyone else see something wrong with this picture?

Why does a 17 year old need a car- especially a 17 year old who is not doing well academically (I'm assuming she isn't taking a "gifted and talented" course in summer school)? Hell, if she is doing so badly she needs summer school, she should be doing NOTHING but studying- no after school activities, no wasting time with friends, NO CAR, and NO JOB!

Since graduating high school is not terrible challenging (unless she is disabled), the time she saves by getting rid of the car and the job should allow her to be able to graduate AND spend the FOUR MINUTES (if she walks slowly) it takes to take out the garbage every week and maybe, just maybe, spend a little time cooking?

jb
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I have an idea about making on time payments.

When my wife and I married, our financial lives were merging. It took basically 6 months for the financial dust to settle. We both decided on the mutual fund approach and opened a joint account for us and moved what money we had into it and changed our direct deposits to go into the new account. We then spent the next 6 months fighting with some billers who insisted on using our old accounts to collect payments.

Once the dust settled, we turned to online bill payment for whatever we could.

If part of your problem is that you mail your payments off too close to the due date the try online bill payment or you don't know until a few days before it is due that you can or can't pay the this could be a help to you.

Your bank may offer it as a free service. If not other sites offer it. I know Yahoo! offers a free bill payment service because I use it.

You can pay any Visa, MasterCard, Discover or American Express card you have thru Yahoo! Bill Payment for free! Go to https://bills.yahoo.com/

If you are not a registered user of Yahoo! you will have to set up an account first which does not take long and is also free. Once you have that set up it will walk you thru setting up for auto bill payment.

The cool thing about Y! BP is that you decide when they get the money. You can make it pay on the due date or before. And you have 5 days instead of the 7-10 to change your mind. Y! BP works off of the ACH transfer system that the banks use. If you find out you can't make a payment on something for whatever reason, you just go into Y! BP 5 days or more before it is set to be paid and simply click 'Cancel' you can cancel all future payments or just the current one.

If you don't want to commit to certain days, you can set up Y! BP to remind you via email when your bills are due and it can send you 2 emails if 1 is not enough.

Using this free service helped get us out of the 'I forgot this' or 'it wasn't sent in time' games.

You'll need payment addresses and account numbers to set up each account but once you do it is so much easier.

Another plus is that you get to save the postage for the envelope AND you can be sure that if you set it up to pay on such and such it will be paid to the creditor on that date.

So to use a service like this for just your credit cards can help save you postage or even late fees.

t1
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My experience is that any time I get close to a limit the CC raises it.

This is how my CB card went from a limit of $600 in 1992 to a limit of $17k in 2002.

I got within a few thou and I promptly received a notice saying my 'good history' qualified me for a limit increase. It worked for them and I fell for it. Fortunately, I was one of those odd people who read the whole terms papers before signing so I did not hold it against the CCC. And CB has been very kind to me working out problem payments or lowering interest rates.

t1
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Yep, crock pots are great. I use mine quite a bit.

Catleen
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Anyone else see something wrong with this picture?

Why does a 17 year old need a car-


Ah yes. Ah-hem! I do! But before anyone starts to moan about me being vauge, let me explain why I see something wrong with it.

The teenager that I spoke of is coming to live with us after living most of her life with her mom (my ex-wife) in Orlando. Her mom helped her buy a car so she can show responibility. My daughter got a job at 16, and that's when her grades began to improve. She uses the job to buy her car, insurance, gas, tires, etc. Her mom made my daughter pay for 50 percent of the car. My daughter is still in the process of paying off that 50 percent - she pays it to my ex-wife, who paid cash for the car.

The car is worth double what my wife and mine vehicles is worth.

My daughter is coming to live with us since its her last year in high school and she wants to live with me and her brothers and sisters for one school year.

We have told my daughter that if she gets any failing grades, the job and car have to go - immediately.

While my daughter lived with my ex-wife, I paid 600 a month child support, plus a few other misc medical expenses once in a while. I am legally responsible to do this, although it wasn't court ordered. I have been paying this amount since seperating with my ex-wife. I am not in arrears.

Once my daughter lives with us comes here, I probably should be able to even get child support from my ex-wife but I won't.

Now, I'm sure there are some that would say she should just stay there - after all, my house is small, etc. etc. And it's true, that my daughter has her own room down there in Orlando, and she won't here.

I've been all throught that with my wife. In fact, my wife doesn't want her to move here. Especially while she is pregnant. But my wife; being the sweetest wife in the world also would like me to be able to live with my daughter just for one school year before she's grown up.

Giving her the car isn't my doing. But when she moves here and gets a job (assuming her grades allow for it) then I want her to have her car so my wife and I don't become a taxi service.
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When you buy an ice cream cone, you give the cashier money (let's say, $1.50) and they give you an ice cream cone.

If you are at Disney, the ice cream cone will cost $9.25

DHeavy
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Ah, if you cancelled the card, I believe that means you effectively rejected the change in terms. So it seems you ought to fight to have those fees back at their original amount.

I do think credit card companies are sneaky in the way they notify you of changes in the agreement, it would be nice if you had to sign something and send it back to them. Of course, then what would they do if they didn't get the paper back? They could continue with the old agreement, or they could just deactivate your card, I suppose -- but if you're already not using the card, they couldn't make a unilateral change to the agreement that way.

It is weird, how the agreement can change at the company's whim, and all you can do is take it or leave it. I guess the agreements are written that way, and we all just have to be careful with them, but I believe if you closed the card to reject the changes, you can get the changes put back the way you want -- you just have to call them on it. I guess that's what you're doing with your 50% offer. Would it make more sense to ask them to change the late fees and such to what they were in your original agreement? (As a way of getting a payoff amount, I mean.)


--Booa
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And me out of recs!


--Booa
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frissy, my dove, if you send a payment Federal Express, say, to make sure it gets there by a certain day, you have to send it to a special address because you can't send FedEx (I'm not sure about UPS) to a PO box. So you can bust your butt and still be late if you didn't specify early morning delivery.


--Booa (ask me how I know :-(...)
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And me out of recs!

--Booa


Heh heh!! I just re-read it... it WAS pretty good... if I do say so myself.

Hey, how many recs do we get, anyway? I haven't hit my limit yet... then again, I'm sorta stingy (in case you hadn't noticed).

SS - who now needs to wait for her head to revert to normal size so she can fit through the door.

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I do think credit card companies are sneaky in the way they notify you of changes in the agreement, it would be nice if you had to sign something and send it back to them.


I would like that in any contract I am a party to. But in the end, I suppose that really isn't practical for them (creditors). If it winds up increasing their cost to do business, that cost will be passed on to us.

I've begun to learn a lot about contracts now that I'm trying to launch my own business.

It's a web based business that only really takes in 4 or 5 bucks per month from each customer. If I had to get a signed statement from each of them before the web site could open an account, it would really just wipe away any profit instantly.

So I suppose that the "click to accept" agreements and the "agree by default", or "agree by continuing to use" agreements are somewhat necessary.

But I won't be "sneaky" as you say in my business. I would make everything as up-front as I can. I won't hide terms in small print in the back of something, or on hidden web pages, etc. I also will NOT sell peoples names, addresses or personal information.

I do think that if CC companies continue to change these agreements every month, the public backlash will eventually cause legislation.

From what I've seen, almost every time the government gets involved, costs go up.

I suppose in the end, time will tell.
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So I suppose that the "click to accept" agreements and the "agree by default", or "agree by continuing to use" agreements are somewhat necessary.

But I won't be "sneaky" as you say in my business. I would make everything as up-front as I can. I won't hide terms in small print in the back of something, or on hidden web pages, etc.


Just to be on the safe side (and make sure they "heard" me) I have a form that they fill out. In one of the fields, right after a link to my Terms of Service is a field asking if they agree to those terms, where they have to choose "No, I do not agree" or "Yes, I have read and agree to these terms." The default answer is No, so they have to actually *do* something to accept the terms.

I can't force them to read it, but I CAN force them to say they did!

SS
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Hey, how many recs do we get, anyway?

Unless it has changed while I was busy keeping up with somehting - 30 recs a day.

peace & recs
t

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Someone suggested building cheap-*ss but sturdy bunk beds as a solution to the "not enough space for beds in bedrooms" problem. You blew that off, but I didn't understand your objection. Heck, even if you do decide to buy, what if it takes you awhile to buy? What if it's 18 months rather than 6-12? You'll be living with another human in an overcrowded house; why not take steps now to make room for the baby? Maybe the place will seem do-able if you just compact yourselves further.


That would be me.

This guy sounds just like my boss, who I walked out on today, for not paying his **** bills.
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Anyone else enjoying the irony here?

No, but only because Alanis Moresette totally screwed up the definition for irony.

Black fly in the chardonay, indeed!
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<<Heh heh!! I just re-read it... it WAS pretty good... if I do say so myself.
>>


Heh, heh!™


I'm granting you a free license to use my trademarked giggle.




Seattle Pioneer
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I'm granting you a free license to use my trademarked giggle.

Gee, uh, thanks SP!

SS - thinking SP is a bit of a spendthrift - who'd pay trademark fees for that?! But feeling special all the same. ;^p
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This guy sounds just like my boss, who I walked out on today, for not paying his **** bills.


How very "grown up" of you. <g>
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How very "grown up" of you. <g>

Yes, I am quite responsible.

I finished up the work he left for me to do, and 'splained how the temp agency had said they wouldn't pay me any more.

Not that I would have stayed anyhow, since he said it was "understandable" that his landlady griped at me for him not paying his rent.

I left him a flyer about Dave Ramsey's seminar that will be taking place (at his church even) next month. I doubt he will even look at it for more than 3 seconds before throwing it away and calling his atty to declare BK.
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I finished up the work he left for me to do, and 'splained how the temp agency had said they wouldn't pay me any more.


Wow! I can see why you are fuming at people that are not responsible for themselves. Especially when their iresponsibility spills over and affects you.

Good luck
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Thirty a day. Me, I'm profligate. I throw those puppies around. :-)


--Booa (big rec spender)
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Not in this economy. If it were 3 years ago, I might agree with that statement. I feel it's MUCH harder to find another job now than it was then.


That's odd. I quit my job yesterday at Noon. By 2pm, I had another one that pays $2.00/hour MORE!

Plus I'm now all full up on hours at job #2 (43, instead of just the 28 I was going to be working.)
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Since when is it "fun" to deliberately taunt somebody?


Since first grade?

frissy
kidding, mostly
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frissy, my dove, if you send a payment Federal Express, say, to make sure it gets there by a certain day, you have to send it to a special address because you can't send FedEx (I'm not sure about UPS) to a PO box. So you can bust your butt and still be late if you didn't specify early morning delivery.


I said Mail, not Ship. Two very different things.
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Wow! I can see why you are fuming at people that are not responsible for themselves. Especially when their iresponsibility spills over and affects you.

<boggle!>
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Not in this economy. If it were 3 years ago, I might agree with that statement. I feel it's MUCH harder to find another job now than it was then.


That's odd. I quit my job yesterday at Noon. By 2pm, I had another one that pays $2.00/hour MORE!

Plus I'm now all full up on hours at job #2 (43, instead of just the 28 I was going to be working.)


Well - I wasn't referring to the microcosm that is you. But rather, on the economy in general as a whole.

Most statistics of late show that the economy isn't as good now as it was in 1998/1999.
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<boggle!>


Well.. Whatever. I get it.
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<<Since when is it "fun" to deliberately taunt somebody?>>


Since first grade?

frissy
kidding, mostly



I was going to just ignore this, but find that I can't resist. Apologies in advance.

Grow up, Frissy!

SS
serious, sort of
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Well - I wasn't referring to the microcosm that is you. But rather, on the economy in general as a whole.

Most statistics of late show that the economy isn't as good now as it was in 1998/1999.


Almost everyone I know is doing as well or (in most cases) better than I. The ones that I know are having a hard time have debt.
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Grow up, Frissy!

1. It's frissy.

2. It's "Act your age, not your shoe size!"
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Almost everyone I know is doing as well or (in most cases) better than I. The ones that I know are having a hard time have debt.


Many of the people I know have been laid off or are working in a job where they are thankful for the paycheck.

In 1998/1999, these are the same people who were getting 10 percent per year raises, and had at least 3 or 4 standing job offers to go work somewhere else. Many of these offers came with stock grants or options to purchase. They also included many perks such as free meals, cokes and snacks at work, education allowances, car allowances, travel perks and much more.

Now, many people I know are lucky to still get free cokes and/or coffee as well as that paycheck. And I know of almost no one at all who gets more than 2 or 3 percent per year raises unless they job hop.
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Now, many people I know are lucky to still get free cokes and/or coffee as well as that paycheck.

Well, I don't drink much Coke...I'd rather have the $0.50 in cash, thankyouverymuch.

MCI used to advertise that they gave away prizes, "special" bonuses, etc. Other companies pushed their "great health benefits" or 401(k)'s, or their "in house" gym/dry cleaners/cafeteria/whatever. It annoys me when companies do junk like that to convince you what a great place they are to work. I just wanna show up, do my work, and go home.
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I consider FedEx mail, 'cause it's an envelope, not like I'm shipping a box, so that's why I wrote what I wrote. :-)

And congrats on the new job! But for someone as bright and hardworking as you, I still think you're underpaid. I bet if you had your degree (hint, hint) you'd be making twice that an hour, easy. JMHO.


--Booa (part of the get-a-degree mafia)
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I wasn't referring to the microcosm that is you.

Oh, God, I want that on a shirt. :-)


--Booa (owns a shirt that says, "I love my attitude problem.")
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MCI used to advertise that they gave away prizes, "special" bonuses, etc. Other companies pushed their "great health benefits" or 401(k)'s, or their "in house" gym/dry cleaners/cafeteria/whatever. It annoys me when companies do junk like that to convince you what a great place they are to work. I just wanna show up, do my work, and go home.

One of my vendors in NJ, has a full cafeteria with snacks, drinks, good coffee, hot breakfast and lunch, salad and sandwich bar, and a dessert bar, all for free.

The upside is that you get free breakfast and lunch, the downside is you never really leave the building. This company pays very well and has excellent benefits, but if something comes up, you have to work late. Oh, and don't forget, for new employeess, they gain at least 15 pounds the first year they work there, since there is always food available.

I understand your view point that you have not had a problem finding a job, but when you are established in a career or a particular industry, jobs become more and more scare for what you are trained for.

When I was unemployed last year, I took a job out of my field for 3 months with a pay cut just to pay bills, but it wasn't fun. Finally, the job I have now came through (I applied in February and I did not start until September) and with that a pay increase.
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I consider FedEx mail, 'cause it's an envelope, not like I'm shipping a box, so that's why I wrote what I wrote. :-)


I send packages through the mail...it's the cheapest way to get them there. I don't consider FedEx to be the same as the post. USPS is for when you don't really care if it gets there tomorrow or next week.

And congrats on the new job! But for someone as bright and hardworking as you, I still think you're underpaid. I bet if you had your degree (hint, hint) you'd be making twice that an hour, easy. JMHO.

I doubt that. The only careers I am interested in pay about the same as I earn right now. No since in spending 60 hours a week doing something that I hate, just so I can retire 5 years earlier.
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No since in spending 60 hours a week doing something that I hate, just so I can retire 5 years earlier.

Having spent 9 years to get my BA, then getting the coveted "management position," I can vouch for this. I made very good money, but only lasted a year, then quit to start my own business. Spending your life doing something that drives you nuts and prevents you from seeing the people you care about is not a good use of your time, IMO.

For me, the time/enjoyment/money equation didn't balance out. I had plenty of money, but no time to enjoy it. Since I also can't stand the beaurocracy and politics, I got out. Some people think that stuff is fun. Not me.

I think you're lucky to know what you want before spending the time and money on the degree.

I did finally figure out what I want to be when I grow up - a landlord! I still keep the day job so that I can qualify for the mortgages (and pay the bills until the properties start doing my snowballing for me). At least I don't have to commute!

SS
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I bet if you had your degree (hint, hint) you'd be making twice that an hour, easy.

Oh my goodness, you sound like my mother!!

Wendy
;)
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No since in spending 60 hours a week doing something that I hate, just so I can retire 5 years earlier.

What about a 40 hour a week job you don't mind doing that pays more than your current job?

Utahtea
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Wendy, honey, is that you? :-)


--Booa (just kidding!)
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What about a 40 hour a week job you don't mind doing that pays more than your current job?


No such thing. We've been over this already. I would *LIKE* being a teacher or in an administrative position. Teacher has just as long hours, but without the additional pay, and I would have to go into debt to get THAT degree, which I REFUSE to do, and I don't yet have "enough" years of experience to demand more in an administrative position.
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What about a 40 hour a week job you don't mind doing that pays more than your current job?


No such thing. We've been over this already. I would *LIKE* being a teacher or in an administrative position. Teacher has just as long hours, but without the additional pay, and I would have to go into debt to get THAT degree, which I REFUSE to do, and I don't yet have "enough" years of experience to demand more in an administrative position.



I realize your first choice is teaching. I said something you "don't mind doing". I'm taking about getting further education in the field you are currently working...I was under the impression you don't mind this kind of work. Further education can mean advancements and more income.

Utahtea
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Almost everyone I know is doing as well or (in most cases) better than I. The ones that I know are having a hard time have debt.

What about a lot of the accountants that you know that are working for $9/hour right now as temps?

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=19243003&resultcode=0059

Utahtea
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I realize your first choice is teaching. I said something you "don't mind doing". I'm taking about getting further education in the field you are currently working...I was under the impression you don't mind this kind of work. Further education can mean advancements and more income.

I'm still looking for someone to pay me for sitting on the couch and watching sports!

Actually, I would love to work for a sports team doing just about anything but ideally programming, I could combine two of my passions and get paid in the process.

dt
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What about a lot of the accountants that you know that are working for $9/hour right now as temps?

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=19243003&resultcode=0059



Wondering if the intent was to discredit me, at any cost? <g>

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I'm still looking for someone to pay me for sitting on the couch and watching sports!

I'm looking for someone to pay me to go touring around the Untied States in a motorhome.

Ütah~tea


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I'm looking for someone to pay me to go touring around the Untied States in a motorhome.

Well, along those lines, my true preference would be finding someone to pay me to tour the USA or anywhere else on my motorcycle. But I am not picky, I would settle for the couch/sports thing as well. :)

dt
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I'm looking for someone to pay me to go touring around the Untied States in a motorhome.

Ütah~tea


ooops....make that the United States! And you can add Canada too!

Utahtea
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I realize your first choice is teaching. I said something you "don't mind doing". I'm taking about getting further education in the field you are currently working...I was under the impression you don't mind this kind of work. Further education can mean advancements and more income.

and I don't yet have "enough" years of experience to demand more in an administrative position.
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What about a lot of the accountants that you know that are working for $9/hour right now as temps?


They have/had a lot of debt. (Mortgages too big (IMO), credit cards, cars, STUDENT LOANS)

The two that I know really well--one of them got a temporary position with the company that got bought out by the one he was laid off (lay off caused by the buy-out) then he was able to get a permanent job with them (Has a Bachelors). The other one finally took a completely non-related job (working outside maintaining electric poles) and was stuck there for over a year, even though he was told he could transfer to the accounting department after 6 months. He only just got transferred two months ago. (Bachelors)

One other person I know, her husband got laid off--and two weeks later their (just financed) brand new car was totalled when an (uninsured) moron teenager ran a red light. VERY fortunately, she was not injured. Six months later they lost their house. She and her husband are now sharing one car, and he's working a $7.50/hour job at the airport, instead of the $70K/year job they moved to Phoenix for. She's a Vetrinarian Assistant, and does "doggy day care" on the side, and for a while was doing EXTREMELY well at Pampered Chef, but now without a car, she can't do the shows any more. They both have Bachelor's Degrees (he has a Master's IIRC--I haven't talked to her for a few months--she hasn't been coming to cluster)

Student loans didn't help them. I've heard over and over again that many employers don't want to hire "overqualified" people because they know they will bail as soon as something better comes along.

I'll eventually go get my AS or BS, but I refuse to go into debt to do so.
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I'll eventually go get my AS or BS, but I refuse to go into debt to do so.

I managed to do it without going into debt - except for a couple quarters that I put on my credit card, which I paid off before the quarter was over. After that, I requested that my employers pay for for my school. The first one did it, no questions asked. The second one did it, but required that I get at least a C or better, which was reasonable.

If your skills are valuable to your employer, you may be able to work out a deal. By paying for your school, they escape certain taxes that they would have to pay if they paid the money to you directly, and you get the benefit of having your school paid for in tax-free dollars. Everybody wins!

SS


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and I don't yet have "enough" years of experience to demand more in an administrative position.

And a few years down the road when you do have the experience and they have to choose between two people with everything the same but you with out further education and some one with more education....who do you think they get that job!

Just something to think about.

Utahtea
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But you said to mrbol:

"Almost everyone I know is doing as well or (in most cases) better than I. The ones that I know are having a hard time have debt."

Seems to me your accounting friends weren't doing to well in their chosen fields. They got laid off...ever think it might have something to do with our economy like mrbol has been tying to point out. I do. This had nothing to do with higher education.

Utahtea
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I'll eventually go get my AS or BS, but I refuse to go into debt to do so.

Then what are we fighting about? All I ever wanted was for you to go to college. I also don't want you to go into debt to do it. There are ways to do this. Find an employer that will pay for school. Do a couple of night classes at a near by JC as soon as you get those cards paid off.

That's all I'm asking for.

Utahtea...old enought to be your mother and do the nagging she should be doing:)

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