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No. of Recommendations: 7
http://www.g4noise.com/

I had NO idea users were this angry about this stuff, or how bad Apple has been about handling the situation. Puts a different spin on the "Apple cares about the quality of its machine" bit.

ObGregTitus: I'm not intending to be negative, I actually stumbled across this on my quest to make my PC STFU =)

-Hook

P.S. As much as it pains me to admit, the Dell OptiPlex series are generally lauded as being some of the quietest PCs you can buy, primarily because they're being targeted directly at office environments where noise is considered a significant factor.
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No. of Recommendations: 1
As much as it pains me to admit, the Dell OptiPlex series are generally lauded as being some of the quietest PCs you can buy, primarily because they're being targeted directly at office environments where noise is considered a significant factor.

that is why the FP iMac has been very popular here in offices and even research labs. The quiet... of course I love my Powerbook G4 for its quiet behavior as well :)
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As much as it pains me to admit, the Dell OptiPlex series are generally lauded as being some of the quietest PCs you can buy, primarily because they're being targeted directly at office environments where noise is considered a significant factor.


that is why the FP iMac has been very popular here in offices and even research labs. The quiet... of course I love my Powerbook G4 for its quiet behavior as well :)
-gippynet

----------------------


hmm on monday night my friend JP called. her first computer was a mac
you know, the color classic type originalMac.

then in 1995 <cringe> she got a windows pc.

then in 1998 i met her. she had problems with her stupid computer.
she wanted a new one, "this one is too slow"
"and it doesn't do cool stuff"

so after a year or so of telling her about my ohh so happy mac experience
she out of the blue called me and said
"i want the blue dalmation"

a friend came through with a nice discount on a new machine
and after 4 pizzas and considerable Q&A sessions
suddenly she doesn't need my help anymore, she's making iMovies
and using iphoto for he digital camera and stuff, new screensavers and whatever.

that was 2 years or so ago
so she went from a 5-7 schedule of hardware replacement
to a 2-3 year schedule.

she really liked the flatpanel but i told her to wait.
then the 17in came out and my friend dan
(first mac was a second hand 333G3, second was the 17in flat)
bought that, last month

so JP calls and says "which should i get faster or fastest"

and i said "which model are you talking about"

and she says she's on the web site (apple) and she is looking at the
1.25 or the 1
and after much discussion of various things
she decides on the 1.25 G4 along with a formac 17in display.

will it rattle and hum?
i dunno.

but i do know that people are buying macs around me.
i remember the graphic designer guy i knew, richard
he used to put a mirror on his monitor so that he could see when
people we coming up to his desk if he was working.
mirrored doors...

jeez i see two or three iPods everytime i go out in the city.

i saw martin sheen at the antiwar rally in SF last weekend.

someone on muni always has the white iPod wires.
more and more every week

anecdotally, ][
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No. of Recommendations: 1
so after a year or so of telling her about my ohh so happy mac experience
she out of the blue called me and said
"i want the blue dalmation"


Oh. She's one of the two or three who actually bought that machine?!

i saw martin sheen at the antiwar rally in SF last weekend.

Nice to know Saddam has some friends....
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No. of Recommendations: 6
http://www.g4noise.com/

I had NO idea users were this angry about this stuff, or how bad Apple has been about handling the situation. Puts a different spin on the "Apple cares about the quality of its machine" bit.


I think the percentage of picky (dare I say "anal"?) people who are Apple customers is VASTLY higher than in the population in general, because Apple's attention to both hardware and software design attracts those people. It's one of Apple's biggest strengths and occasionally, weaknesses.

ObGregTitus: I'm not intending to be negative, I actually stumbled across this on my quest to make my PC STFU =)

I'll forgive you just this once. :-) The noise from my dual 1ghz is a major pain in the butt, but then I go and turn on my PC (a year old Compaq w/ Athlon) and the Mac doesn't seem so loud any more...

- Greg
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No. of Recommendations: 24

i saw martin sheen at the antiwar rally in SF last weekend.

Nice to know Saddam has some friends....


How does opposing a war make you friends with a dictator? What bizarre logic. Antiwar people are usually opposed to all warmongers - both George Bush and Saddam Hussein included.

The friends of Saddam Hussein are the ones obliging in giving him all this publicity, and a war he wants .... Oh and Dick Cheney, who illegally profited from dealing with Iraq after Gulf War I.

I would not even be surprised if Gulf War II is just another attempt to make some more Halliburton profits.

David
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How does opposing a war make you friends with a dictator? What bizarre logic.

Yes, David. In your world, it would be bizarre.
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How does opposing a war make you friends with a dictator? What bizarre logic.

Yes, David. In your world, it would be bizarre.


In any world that is bizarre. Would you care to explain it?

David
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No. of Recommendations: 17
How does opposing a war make you friends with a dictator? What bizarre logic.

Yes, David. In your world, it would be bizarre.

FoolishApple, please understand what dsheehy is saying.

In the US of A you are constitutionally entitled to hold any belief and express any view you believe. Including... No, especially the right to disagree with your government. With arms if you feel strongly enough.

Or that was true until Bush's "If you're not with us, you're with them" statement. Which you appear to have adopted to your believe system.

If I do not agree with Bush commencing an armed conflict with Iraq, that does not reflect on me in any other way than that I oppose it. That doesn't allow you to conclude I am for anything, just that I am against armed conflict.

As it happens, I am pro-armed-conflict and think the US should beat up on piddly countries that have something the US wants regardless of international law and the opinions of other countries whose combined wealth, knowledge, experience and military might far outweigh anything the US has to offer.

Look what you've done. You've made me all conflicted inside now! ;)

Dex22
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No. of Recommendations: 8
From today's Washington Post:

"Should any Iraqi officer or soldier receive an order from
Saddam Hussein or his sons or any of the killers who
occupy the high levels of their government, my advice is
don't follow that order," Bush said. "If you choose to do so,
when Iraq is liberated, you will be treated, tried and
persecuted as a war criminal."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26849-2003Jan22.html

At least twice I have heard Bush actually say "nucular".

***********************************************************************

Returning to the title topic and original issue of this thread, the PowerMac needs a larger case. The PCI slots are to the side and nearly touch the power supply. The dual optical drives are too closely spaced. I can't imagine how the system would function with all the possible internal drive bays filled, all the PCI slots in use, dual displays connected, and Apple speakers (which are powered by the system) attached.

But the second part of this post is just IMHO.


dave
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No. of Recommendations: 6
Wasn't there new firmware released to fix the noise issue?

http://www.versiontracker.com/moreinfo.fcgi?id=17165&db=mac

That didn't do the trick?



-

I'm just going to pretend you guys aren't talking politics again. Though like driving past a nasty car wreck I can't completely avoid wondering if certain people want to explain why Afghanistan didn't turn out to be the horrible boggy nightmare they were painting it would be... On second thought, no, I really don't want to hear that.



(whistles and looks off into the distance)



Soooo, about that firmware update. Have you guys tried that yet?

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No. of Recommendations: 7
Soooo, about that firmware update. Have you guys tried that yet?

The firmware upgrade did very little. The general gist of the problems with noise seem to be summed up as follows:

- MMD and even QuickSilver Macs are extremely loud

- Apple refuses to acknowledge that this is a problem and has gone so far as to delete entire threads of discussion on the Apple forums on this issue

- Apple refuses to publish specifications for acceptable noise

- Apple's only statement on this issue so far has effectively been "MMD PowerMacs are louder than other Macs, deal with it"

- the amount of noise is hugely variable from machine to machine, and without a specification there's no way for someone to complain they have a louder than normal computer

I knew that people were irritated, but www.g4noise.com shows that a lot of careful analysis into this problem has been made, including some pretty damning stuff about the overall design of the Mac system unit. Basic things like the 120mm case fan isn't screwed in, it's slotted in, which causes vibration; or how the PSU intakes hot case air instead of cooler external air. The PSU is undersized for its capacity, which requires 2x60mm high speed fans to cool when a more traditional style PSU can use an 80mm lower speed thermally controlled fan.

On top of that, not all the Apple fans are thermally controlled (at least according to some of the stuff I've seen, I can't verify that 100%).

To fix all these problems they probably need to redesign the case from scratch to take into account the thermal requirements of higher powered processors.

To put this into context, a Dell OptiPlex has only two fans, not the five fans of the G4, and is considered "very quiet" by most quiet PC advocates. They also have extremely good case design with a toolless clamshell similar to the PowerMac.

-Hook
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i saw martin sheen at the antiwar rally in SF last weekend.


Kewl! I attended a rally here in Salt Lake a few months ago, but was too busy to catch this past weekend rallies.

I'll be at more, though... the madmen must be stopped!

Paul
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No. of Recommendations: 3
In any world that is bizarre. Would you care to explain it?

No. It would take too long. You wouldn't listen anyway. And it would degenerate into a shouting match. I'm not willing to waste my time trying to explain something that is rather logical, to someone who ignores logic constantly.

Yes, Dave. That would be you. Specifically. In toto.

And to quote you in advance: "WTF????"
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"Should any Iraqi officer or soldier receive an order from
Saddam Hussein or his sons or any of the killers who
occupy the high levels of their government, my advice is
don't follow that order," Bush said. "If you choose to do so,
when Iraq is liberated, you will be treated, tried and
persecuted as a war criminal."


That's interesting .... The United States claims it has exemption from war crimes prosecution. On what logic? "Oh, we're the United States, and the same laws don't apply to us." is the logic.

Yet, now Bush is saying any Iraqi soldier is automatically guilty of war crimes, even if they didn't actually commit any?

And the USA says it doesn't need to belong to nuclear non-proliferation treaties .... and then gives nuclear weapons as a reason to go to war, even though the US has more than anyone.

What the hell is this all about, anyway?


I wish I could still laugh at Bush's foibles like saying "persecuted" and "nucular", but it just isn't funny anymore. It's damn scary.

David
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I'm just going to pretend you guys aren't talking politics again. Though like driving past a nasty car wreck I can't completely avoid wondering if certain people want to explain why Afghanistan didn't turn out to be the horrible boggy nightmare they were painting it would be...

It wasn't? I remember hundreds of innocent people getting killed, including many mistakes involving friendly fire. And it hasn't helped political stability. The place is going back to feudalism.

It was a nightmare. It's just that they didn't show you all the gory bits on TV.

David
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They also have extremely good case design with a toolless clamshell similar to the PowerMac.


Extremely good? I'll believe it when it has the ruggedness of a Powermac case, and can withstand being in the full flames of a fire, as one G4 has.

The plastic used in those things is cheap and nasty. They are quite flimsy, despite the "toolless" entry.

Maybe they are good, but "extremely good? I don't think so. Extreme counts for extremes like surviving fires and having those huge chunky handles to carry it around when you are performing.

David
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It wasn't? I remember hundreds of innocent people getting killed, including many mistakes involving friendly fire. And it hasn't helped political stability. The place is going back to feudalism.

Is that the best you can come up with? Hundreds? Versus the thousands that were being executed annually by the Taliban and al Qaeda? Are you that morally obtuse, or are you just playing dumb?
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No. It would take too long. You wouldn't listen anyway.

I see .... another one of those cases where you have no actual argument, but can't wait to turn it into an ad hominem or shouting match.

I would listen.

And it would degenerate into a shouting match.

Why? Why do you want that to happen? I don't see why you are unable to discuss this civilly.

I'm not willing to waste my time trying to explain something that is rather logical, to someone who ignores logic constantly.

What's so logical about it? When do I ignore logic? What I ignore is indocrination into lazy thinking. I use logic to reason, not jump to knee-jerk conclusions.

Yes, Dave. That would be you. Specifically. In toto.

And to quote you in advance: "WTF????"


I see. You are now raving in a fairly deranged way. Why do you keep starting these conversations if you don't want to go through with them? I swear, if we just dicussed what we were talking about, it would be a lot easier.

More posts are wasted saying "I don't want to talk about that", or accusing people of something, than actually getting on with things.

What a waste. Maybe you shouldn't chime in if you are too scared of a debate or discussion?

David
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The place is going back to feudalism.

Actually, feudalism would be an improvement over the Taliban.

-Anthony
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to someone who ignores logic constantly.


You want logic? You can't handle the logic!

It's very, very simple. It only uses the most basic of logical concepts.

For argument's sake, let's say I hate cats. This statement says nothing about dogs. So you cannot infer my position on dogs from my position on cats.

I may hate dogs just as much as cats. However, by your argument, I automatically love dogs because I hate cats.

That just doesn't make logical sense, because you do not have the ability to infer from my cat hatred, what I feel about dogs.


Understand?

David
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Is that the best you can come up with? Hundreds? Versus the thousands that were being executed annually by the Taliban and al Qaeda? Are you that morally obtuse, or are you just playing dumb?


Well, it would have been thousands in total ... but hundreds at any one time. The executions have not been stopped by the war at all.

So the war hasn't stopped any executions, just further destabilized the region. Now the US is moving on to Iraq, before there is a chance to stabilize Afghanistan.

Also, your logic is sick ... any innocent casualties are sickening. You are talking about hundreds/thousands of other people's lives.

they could have been spared, and the war still won, if the US has used different techniques, instead of letting warlords like the NA do most of the fighting, and also by refusing to negotiate toward peace.

We also have this odd system of holding people without charge and without legal rights or the Geneva convention, which is odd coming from a "democracy". So what is the fight for? To help warlords? It obviously is not about freedom and democracy.

David
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Tell me, how would you feel if your entire family was wiped out by a misguided bomb from a misguided war - and then someone comes along and laughs "It was only hundreds of people - what are you upset about?"

Maybe you can see how insane your comments are. Or perhaps it's not insane if you enjoy death and torture .... but not many people are like that.

David
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Anyway - what happened to Osama Bin Laden being Most Wanted Criminal #1? He's apparently still alive, but the US seems to have forgotten.

I guess that war really was just to make a poor country poorer, rather than catch those responsible for September 11.

And if it's about moral outrage over the Taliban's executions, why didn't the US go in and stop that earlier Why did the US refuse to help East Timor, or Rwanda, or the Tibetans, or the Chinese .... or any other country where there are thousands of executions and torture every year?

Why isn'tr Bush declaring war on Texas, where many more executions occur? Why is it OK for the USA, but no-one else?

David
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The place is going back to feudalism.

Actually, feudalism would be an improvement over the Taliban.


the locals don't agree. The bloodshed was a lot more severe before the Taliban took over actually. I don't like the Taliban either, but we should at least get facts straight. they were brutal, but they did bring a lot more order than previous regimes.

Anyway, this is all irrelevant, because the US did not go to war over the Taliban's treatment of women, or any noble moral cause ... the US turned a blind eye, and even GAVE the Taliban millions of dollars when they were doing that.

The Taliban even offered to hand over Osama Bin Laden. The US refused, and now Bin Laaden is still free. Seems the smart thing to do would be to get the guy you are after, not cause pointless destruction to a bunch of people who weren't involved.

David
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Hi guys,

Um, can I have my thread back?

kthxbye,

-Hook
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The executions have not been stopped by the war at all.

Do you have a reference for that assertion?

Also, your logic is sick ... any innocent casualties are sickening. You are talking about hundreds/thousands of other people's lives.

We don't do something, innocent people die. We do something, innocent people die. Those are the only two possibilities when dealing with a state maintained through the use or threat of use of force. Sometimes there is no perfect solution. Either way, you're not going to be happy, David.

they could have been spared, and the war still won, if the US has used different techniques, instead of letting warlords like the NA do most of the fighting, and also by refusing to negotiate toward peace.

You're an optimist, David, but you're also a bit naive. Innocent people die. It's a hard fact of life. All we can do is try to limit that number.

-Anthony
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Do you have a reference for that assertion?


If you dig through the post Afghanistan detritus, you will find numerous reports of different warlord factions executing members of the other factions - business as usual in Afghanistan. Unfortunately, executions and torture have been a part of life there for many, many years. regardless of who holds "power".

We don't do something, innocent people die. We do something, innocent people die. Those are the only two possibilities when dealing with a state maintained through the use or threat of use of force.

No, the choices are - You can do nothing, or you can do this, or that, or this other idea. There are many paths of action. Not just binary war/not war.

there are many qualitative aspects to HOW you run a war. You can have best intentions, but if you do not go about it justly, you cause more problems. In this case, this is exactly what happened.

The goal was not achieved. OBL and Al Qaeda are still out there. So the terrorist threat is NOT reduced, but many have died needlessly.

The war did not work.

You're an optimist, David, but you're also a bit naive. Innocent people die. It's a hard fact of life. All we can do is try to limit that number.

I am fully aware of that. the problem is that the US tried to maximise casualties, not minimise them. They had the opportunity to GET OSAMA BIN LADEN peacefully, and refused. Now he has escaped.

Totally pointless. I'm all for catching Osama bin Laden and bringing democracy to Afghanistan. However, that is obviously not what all this is about.

Pre-emptive actions only create more enemies, and worsen the problem. Saddam Hussein would not have the power he does if the US does not give it to them. Every time the US talks about attacking, an Iraqi who might have supported the USA, is turned against them, and chances for democracy and freedom are replaced with only one chance - war.

The US won't even say what it wants. Does it want democracy? Does it want oil? Does it want security? Does it want to get rid of Weapons of Mass Destruction? It seems no matter what you Iraq does, weapons inspections or not, they will be bombed. So what incentive does Saddam have to be peaceful and democractic, if he knows war is inevitable, and there is no peaceful way out?

The Taliban were looking for a peaceful way out of the Afghan situation by handing over OBL. The call for peace fell on deaf ears.

David
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Actually, Hook, I think they are on the right thread.

nembula
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and then gives nuclear weapons as a reason to go to war, even though the US has more than anyone.

Actually of course these numbers can be argued, but I believe Russia still
has more nukes then we do, from a published report I read not too long ago showing the history of nuke buildups over the decades in countries that are known to have nukes.
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Russia, America, what's the difference? They both still have a hell of a lot of nukes. Certainly North korea has more than Iraq (if Iraq have them), and that's probably the reason GW doesn't have the guts to attack them. Is it any wonder?

David
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